NEW matchup discussion week #2: Snake!

Denzi · Dec 24, 2009

Okay, Falco Boards getting right down to business, here's the Snake matchup discussion.

According to past discussions, this is in Snakes favor, but now many think that Falco wins out. Will Falco's chaingrab and damage dealing potential help him KO this heavyweight, or does Snake simply have too many tricks for us to handle?

Falco:
-Has better air game than Snake (who doesn't?)
-Full Chaingrab+Spike
-Quicker ground moves
-Phantasm for quick getaways
-Laser/reflector combo outcamps grenades

Snake:
-Racks up damage quickly with tilts/explosions
-grenades can get him out of a CG unless Falco is near frame-perfect
-Good recovery + C4 saves him from getting 0%-death'd
-Moves that hit through Phantasm (including Utilt for kills)
-can crouch under lasers
-lives forever

Discuss!

Okay basic summary:

The reason Falco vs Snake is even or in Falco's favor is Falco's ability to hit snake into bad positions. Firstly, Falco has a 0-50 chain grab into a spike which can cause snake to be off the edge. When he's at that point, the way he recovers will result him to come back at about 80-100%, possibly higher or even dead. If Snake gets spike onto the stage you can predict how he will roll. Again, this can result in him having 80-100% at the end of this. If you don't predict him correctly, oh well he's at about 60ish%.

Your main objective in this match up is to keep snake in the air facing you. When he's in the position, his best options or to air dodge or pull out a grenade. Dash attack up smash is a great move in this match up. It gives close to 30% damage and sends them right above you. If you are incredibly precise with u air those two options won't matter since you can hit him without hitting the grenade and if he air dodges uair you can do another aerial before he has enough time to do anything about it. Snake, being so heavy won't go too far so you should be able to follow up something else. Depending on how well you shut his options down in the air, he can be juggled his entire stock or until killing %.

Killing Snake can be difficult since he can live for so long, but you a have a variety of ways to do so. If you can hit a ground snake with dair, he can't do much except for air dodge. This put you in the perfect position to f smash. If you're afraid to f smash, you can short hop u air to force an air dodge which will give you enough time to u smash. Even if he isn't at killing % when you hit him with a smash, you can chase him in the air and finish him off with a uair or bair depending on where he is in the air. If you can hit him with a smash at about 110 or 120 you should be able to kill him with a uair or bair depending on how high in the air he is.

Whenever you play a Snake he always does a great deal of damage whenever he hits you, but he's not too great on follow up attacks. What I'm saying is once he gives that 20% you're usually put back in a neutral position or in a place where he can't hit you again. Even when he's in complete control of the stage the most damage he'll ever get from follow ups or good predictations is 40% max. Falco on the other hand can give snake anywhere from 20-60% whenever he makes good follow ups and can result in snake being off the stage or above you.

swordsaint · Dec 24, 2009

While I don't think it's 55:45 Falco. I don't agree it's as in Falco's favour as 60:40. If I have to choose though, 6:4 Falco.

Lasers not only outcamp grenades, they can blow them up if they attempt to throw them. I think Snake's one of the few characters Falco has some good potential to gimp as well.

You pretty much covered the MU in your opening post, and I think those are the reasons we win out in this MU.

After CG %'s, Falco's good at getting people in the air and following up. This is Snakes major weakness...

MetalMusicMan · Dec 24, 2009

55:45 or 60:40 Snake's favor IMO. You can't out camp him if he's smart, and even if you get the chain grab, he won't die until almost 200% every stock. Even if you get him to kill %, he can wrack you up to kill % with only a few moves.

A good snake will not get chain grabbed at all because he can grenade hold or if worst comes to worst self inflict damage. Snake does not mind AT ALL taking 50% damage from this and can easily make that damage equivalent up in 1 over-tilt on Falco.

Even if Falco for some reason gets the chain grab to spike off, Snake can still recover easily by C4'ing and DI'ing further out towards the edge of the blast zone. This means he may have to C4 twice, but he will be able to fly over the stage and completely remove the possibility of Falco spiking him. Returning to the stage at 100%-ish means he still isn't in a fantastic position, but he is still FAR from kill range for Falco and can easily get Falco to the 90%+ that he needs to kill him.

I feel like saying Falco or DeDeDe beats Snake is very out dated and solely speculation based on the fact that they can chain grab him. It reality, it is very unlikely that either of this characters will get many grabs off against a good Snake.

swordsaint · Dec 24, 2009

even if we dont decide to cg, bthrow and up throw are quite solid

as for kill percents, and i think as long as the falcos being smart, we can kill a snake offstage at reasonably normal percents.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Dec 24, 2009

I feel the match-up is 45-55 snake because of the fact that Snake lives forever and Falco cannot kill. Almost everything else in the match counters itself out overall.

A lot of the time when I see matches of Falco vs Snake it is all over the place. The match is so dead even it's hard to see either having anything more than a 5 point advantage from even. 60-40 just seems laughable.

Most of the things mentioned here are overrated or underrated. A lot of the time falco's seem to overrate their methods, and underrate snakes. And Snake's do the same regarding the match-up but vice-versa.

The biggest problem in the match-up seems to be killing. Since Falco cannot kill Snake at a reasonable percent, it gives Snake so many chances to get back at falco.

If you really want to look more in-depth at the stuff, lasers and phantasm alone aren't really enough. As we all know, PSing takes care of this stuff easily. If you see a lot of the matches DEHF and SK92 have, phantasm is typically only used as a way to get out of situations, and not damage. Everyone they play ends up PSing the move. Lasers tack on an occasional damage, but not much. It gets PSed a lot before people get into range of Falco.

This really means that Falco is left with close range stuff to deal the other bit of the damage needed. But that puts falco at risk of getting hit by moves like Ftilt or getting grabbed.

swordsaint · Dec 24, 2009

Speaking of c4ing away from the stage, MMM, we can just laser you while you're offstage to halt you from exploding the c4.

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Dec 24, 2009

swordsaint said:
Speaking of c4ing away from the stage, MMM, we can just laser you while you're offstage to halt you from exploding the c4.

lul You just helped Snake a ton. By doing this not only do you enable him to use his Cypher again, he only takes 2%-3% instead of like 15%. To catch someone with this and hope they die or something like that is not likely to happen if we are talking about high skill levels.

Berserker. · Dec 24, 2009

On first we won't camp in the MU seriously we'll just approach Falco. We can duck under Falco's lasers and seriously don't underrate Snake's approach. If you try defending yourself by using blaster, we'll just crouch. Ground laser has some start-up but there's an AT where Falco can cancel the lag (Is there?) which can be a problem.

Falco will have a hard time killing Snake since lack some kill moves. Phantasm can be easily hit by a timed U-tilt which can kill Falco at around 90% fresh and even an f-smash can hit phanstasm but make sure you have accurate timing. Since Snake can't camp Falco Snake can put mines all over the stage and take complete control over the stage.

swordsaint · Dec 24, 2009

i am not thinking straight, sorry xey. Been up all night. I think I'll refrain from adding anything til i wake up -.-

Elyssa Xey Hexen · Dec 24, 2009

berserker01 said:
On first we won't camp in the MU seriously we'll just approach Falco. We can duck under Falco's lasers and seriously don't underrate Snake's approach. If you try defending yourself by using blaster, we'll just crouch. Ground laser has some start-up but there's an AT where Falco can cancel the lag (Is there?) which can be a problem.

Falco will have a hard time killing Snake since lack some kill moves. Phantasm can be easily hit by a timed U-tilt which can kill Falco at around 90% fresh and even an f-smash can hit phanstasm but make sure you have accurate timing. Since Snake can't camp Falco Snake can put mines all over the stage and take complete control over the stage.

It's preference if you advance or not. It's entirely possible either way. Snake has methods of getting around lasers and getting grenades over to Falco. In no way does either outcamp the other, but it makes it very difficult. If snake can manage to pull off a few grenades to Falco's location, it disrupts his lasering and has to avoid getting hit. That time frame enables Snake to sent more nades Falco's way. But the same works in the opposite way. Lasers mess up Snake pulling nades and keeps this pressue up. But, PSing helps correct this.

Mines are more than likely never going to be placed often. Falco's lasering disrupts this too much.You need Falco offstage and at higher percents to get any free time to place nades.

swordsaint said:
i am not thinking straight, sorry xey. Been up all night. I think I'll refrain from adding anything til i wake up -.-

Why apologize? It was entertaining. I loled. And I loled again in response. I'll be up all night. 5-hour energy shot thingy.

Berserker. · Dec 24, 2009

There's a way to go with Lasers? O_O how?

I forgot my ratio is 55:45 Snake

And plus the only main problem in the MU is lasers which we can get around

Plus I prefer approach against Falco for no apparent reason

MetalMusicMan · Dec 24, 2009

I mean I'm not saying it's 60:40 flat out all the time but I think it's closer to 60:40 than it is 55:45. I certainly don't think that it's "laughable" to say that anyway.

I agree with you Xey that it's dead even a lot of the time, but Snake kills early and Falco is light with terrible DI, and Falco can't kill while Snake never dies.

Based on sheer weight and being on opposite ends of the kill-power-spectrum, I think that gives Snake a very solid advantage assuming all else is equal.

In the end, I think either 55:45 Snake's favor or 60:40 Snake's favor are both very reasonable and would be able to agree with either of those assessments.

I cannot see it being better than a 50:50 match-up for Falco, though.

swordsaint · Dec 24, 2009

I have to say that, without "theorising" about anything. This is one of my most comfortable and favourite matchups because it's not overly difficult. That's just my overall opinion without the speculation of outcomes and options. 40/60 wouldn't be one of my most comfortable matchups.

That's the last I'll say on this for a while.

DEHF · Dec 24, 2009

This match-up is probably 50-50, possibly 55-45 Falco. Falco destroys snakes in the air, can deal with him on the ground fairly well, and has a 0-50 chain grab on him. The only reason the match-up isn't 60-40, is Snake's ability to live very long and kill falco at an early % .

AvoiD · Dec 24, 2009

Agree with DEHF, but it should be Snakes favor if it isn't even.

Snake can break out of chaingrab with nade if your timing isn't perfect, and most good Snakes will survive the spike, and recover. In the air and ground, I believe its even. All of Snakes aerials and cqc moves beat out Falcos phantasm/IAP, crouch under lasers, which Falco can also run off stage and shoot a rising laser to be able to hit him crouced, but it leaves you vulnerable, and if you mess up, most likely a stock is gone.

IMO, this is how I see you should play the matchup.

Agressive Snake - Play campy, or mix it up with aggro and defensive.
Campy Snake - Mix it up.
Mixed Snake - Aggresive/Mixed.

Yeahh, usually, you'll ave to mix up between aggro and defensive, or just camp the whole match. Smart Snakes will **** camping, as to why I suggest mixing it up. And if you guys forget, Snake also has the grab-release cg on Falco that is underused.

]

MetalMusicMan · Dec 24, 2009

DEHF said:
This match-up is probably 50-50, possibly 55-45 Falco. Falco destroys snakes in the air, can deal with him on the ground fairly well, and has a 0-50 chain grab on him. The only reason the match-up isn't 60-40, is Snake's ability to live very long and kill falco at an early % .

Hard to argue against what you say, haha

Admittedly, Snake is one of the characters that I have lesser experience with against high level players. I guess you just don't think Snake's kill ability and resistance to getting killed outweighs Falco's options?

I'm would assume you know much more about this than me, but from everything I've seen, Snake really comes out ahead by a bit in the end... but any elaboration on your views on the subject would be greatly appreciated

I just really think that people over-rate the chain grab against him.

Berserker. · Dec 24, 2009

And plus Snake can knock Falco off the stage easily since Falco is light and due to Falco's low air mobility, he would recover using phantasm which can be outprioritized by all of Snake's moves (especially u-tilt which can kill Falco at around 90%)

You Falcos just underrate Snake ability too much. Snake has a way to get around with lasers and CGs. Like what Xeylo said "PSing takes care of this stuff easily". I'll just emphasize what Xeylo said:

Xeylode said:
Lasers mess up Snake pulling nades and keeps this pressue up. But, PSing helps correct this.

Xeylode said:
If snake can manage to pull off a few grenades to Falco's location, it disrupts his lasering and has to avoid getting hit.

Those 2 passages up there help against Lasers. 55:45 Snake IMO

DEHF said:
the match-up isn't 60-40, is Snake's ability to live very long and kill falco at an early %

It would be even 50:50 with out the problem with killing. PSing helps again with lasers.-_-

Btw: musician man your summary is pretty correct

exdia_16 · Dec 24, 2009

i feel that if you laser game instead of CGrabing it will force snake into a different perspective of your falco i hav beaten lots of snakes by this strat and then by last stock just cg FTW OR DO THE SAME THING BUT MIX IT UP A BIT and stay smart and play it safe and i reflect everything that he throws at me even himself now i must go and beat snake.

#HBC | ZoZo · Dec 24, 2009

Outcamping a snake is pretty darn hard, you have to be semi perfect

killing problem is multiplied x100 in this mu

55,45 for snake or 60,40 for snake, this is my worst mu xD

erick gm14 · Dec 24, 2009

i faced candy, ally, and biskit. omg they are tough snakes. shdl dont work and they can THROW A GRENADE BETWEEN THE 2 LASERS, so shdl is pointless, they can crouch and crawl...

idk how to deal with grenades. i throw em up or reflect but that isnt smart if they are cooked.. 3-4 of snakes tilts and ur in kill percent. if you LUCKY to get the CG this match up is maybe even, snakes blow themselves up to avoid CGs... so i say this MU is snakes favor probs 55-45. then again i have problems dealing with lots of crap like c4's, nades, etc. i would say its 6-4 but im not good at this MU so probs 45-55 snake.

although falco needs to do TONS of work and predicting (air dodges, etc) to get snake at kill percent, its possible, and juggling him is also smart. too bad falco doesnt have fox's up throw, that throw sends then almost straight down after the lasers hit and puts for easy follow ups.

psst get the 4player slot

Berserker. · Dec 24, 2009

Falco has port 4 priority too O_o?

swordsaint · Dec 24, 2009

This is a Matchup discussion assuming high level play. There is no room for calling something "hard" or "if you screw up". A match-up ratio will assume you don't screw up these things, and therefore I agree with DEHF.

gunterrsmash01 · Dec 24, 2009

Even. Phantasm can be spaced so it doesnt hit nades. Once that pops them up its **** time. Up close all we really have is jab,utilt and of course grabs.

swordsaint · Dec 24, 2009

jab, up tilt, grabs and ftilt.

what does snake have up close?

up tilt, jab, ftilt and grabs....

Same things.

our follow ups and juggling game is better than Snakes, and our recoveries not halted THAT much by Snake unlike most characters. And we can still **** Snake's recovery.

Even-ish, but 55-45 Falco.

Denzi · Dec 24, 2009

swordsaint said:
jab, up tilt, grabs and ftilt.

what does snake have up close?

up tilt, jab, ftilt and grabs....

Same things.

Same things?

SAME!?

Sure they're the same inputs, but Snake's do twice as much damage/knockback as ours. His high damage output coupled with his refusal to die make this one pretty even imo.

swordsaint · Dec 24, 2009

Ours are quicker, and our jabs are safe on shield.

As I said, we make up for the damage with superior follow ups.

Denzi · Dec 24, 2009

swordsaint said:
Ours are quicker, and our jabs are safe on shield.

He can follow up single jab with a forward tilt and the shield pushback makes it safe.

swordsaint · Dec 24, 2009

It's not really legit though, quick reactions can punish it.

Are we talking both hits of the Ftilt or just the first one?

Shield push back? I'm pretty sure we can shield grab or up smash Oos anyway

Denzi · Dec 24, 2009

swordsaint said:
It's not really legit though, quick reactions can punish it.

Are we talking both hits of the Ftilt or just the first one?

Shield push back? I'm pretty sure we can shield grab or up smash Oos anyway

Usmash might work, but grab I'm not sure with the disjoint on his Ftilt.

swordsaint · Dec 24, 2009

well yeah, assuming he spaces it right, however, what you explicitly said was jab>ftilt. Jabs range isn't as big and in order to do something like that his ftilt isn't going to be spaced real well.

assuming it's only ftilt and was spaced properly, and pushed us back. We can phantasm OoS.

if we were to play reward and consequence, we can attempt shield the first, stopping the shield knockback by spot dodging or rolling. As long as we're not doing this too much, it's a great reward.

Yumewomiteru · Dec 24, 2009

I think this match up is 50-50 even.

Falco's Advantage:

Grabs are devastating to Snake, even past chaingrab percentage. Because of Falco's fast and hgih jumps he can intercept a Snake cypher recovering pretty easily, I even gotten some uair kills around 120% because I hit them at the max height of my fullhop doublejump. And its really easy to chaingrab Snake without him pulling a nade. But if your opponent is mashing b , when you cg him close to the ledge just stand there and wait, he will pull the nade and lag from tossing it while falling under the stage, you can get an easy gimp if that happens.

And Snake has crap options on landing, fsmash and grab works well when theyre trying to land. if you laser them out of their second jump their recovery becomes really predictable. Snake's moves aren't really all that safe on shields. especially if you can powershield. Falco can approach Snake better than Snake can approach Falco.

Snake's advantage:

Snake can live forever with good DI. Nades can disrupt phantasm recoveries, usually forcing Falco to recover to the ledge, which puts you at a disadvantage. Snake can kill us alot earlier than we can kill him, and his moves does alot of damage. He has a grab release on us which can get us to the edge of the stage which helps him dthrow techchase or kill us off the side earlier. Snake has a fast falling speed so if you get greed and try to hit him in the air he can ff air dodge and get under us and punish us on landing.

So yeah, I dont see this matchup being swayed in anyone's favor.

clowsui · Dec 25, 2009

this match up is 50-50. maybe a little in falco's favor

i have like 3-4 snakes in my area that are all ranked so i've thought a LOT about how to fight snake, even though this thing should really be two-sided

the NUMBER ONE OBJECTIVE in this matchup is holding a 60-80% lead if you can. No lead against Snake is a lead until you have that kind of lead. this is obviously not possible all the time and you will have to adjust based on the snake's level but 60-80% is ideal if you want to start playing more aggressive. why 60-80? a snake will get 20-40 on you for every close up encounter that he works well. believe it or not snake's boxing game is almost as good as ours due to Ftilt and Jab. you want the 60-80% so that you have a safe margin of error should you screw up, because snake is one of the most powerful punishers in the game.

in order to hold this lead you have to be on point about sniping grenades with the laser. it's risky for snake to hold to grenade for that long since you have a time-transcendent projectile and because you have a reflector so he'll toss it sooner or later and if you know the trajectory you can just snipe it out. also to hold this lead you have to be willing to fight him out up close as your lead builds. once you have established a lead of that magnitude, it's no longer safe for snake to fight you up close - remember that with = boxing games the box-out becomes 50-50.

to actually build this lead you have to camp him and play safe all the time. if you can get the grab then get it but snake is easy to damage in other ways too. at this low percentage if the snake is smart he'll be going for more trades and intentionally chipping himself with grenade damage and playing near the edge so that he won't be as susceptible to the CG. this is where your falco camp fundamentals really shine and probably the most crucial stage of the MU.

when you're at a high percent is when you need to start accepting certain damage. snake will be looking to kill you, but has no way to actually approach you. if he gets you in a bad situation like up close if you're smart you're not going to fight him out at this high percentage. the best option from there is (if you're spaced properly...which you should be) to roll away. the only option he has is dash attack which not surprisingly happens to be his only method of approach, which means it will be stale. just TAKE the dash attack. it forces him to make more guesses, which is WAY better than the situation you were in before where he makes one guess and you die. granted snake can be set up where you're limited to like 2-3 options but the important part is that he's making more guesses.

capitalize on the fact that snake is on the edge. he sucks there. don't do ANYTHING. just wait. snake's EVERYTHING is punishable on reaction. similarly if he's offstage go after him as much as you can. learn to footstool c4s so you can punish their close to stage recovery.

snake also sucks in the air. learn to properly juggle him and to notice the ranges for certain "surprise" moves like uair and bair. it's annoying since he can mix up but you have mix ups too, so go all out.

don't hesitate to try for grabs when you can (probably around the 40% lead range). if you can get him in one grab it's possible to put 14-20 on him with a good read. stick primarily to dthrow and bthrow but if you're facing the ledge do fthrow as a mixup.

this is just my strategy for snake that i feel makes the MU even or in your favor. thoughts from everyone?

smashkng · Dec 25, 2009

Lol everything Snake has being punishable on reaction Clowsui. Average human reaction is 12 frames. Snake's ftilt is 4 frame, his jab 3 frame, his utilt 6 frame, his dtilt 6 frame, his standing grab 8 frame, his bair 6 frame, dash attack 5 frame, his uair 10 frame and his pivot grab 9 frame. Also consider the range of his ftilt and utilt. They also are great for punishing opponents for hitting his shield. And if a grenade explodes on Falco after Shining, it gets a boosted knockback. It's not always good to reflect it. And Snake CAN duck under lasers, which is why his dtilt is good vs Falco.

Snake also lives way longer than Falco, and Falco has not the best approach. Also watch out fsmash, it beats Illusion and I've killed as low as 35% with a slightly charged one, and I have sursprised many Falcos with it who though they were safe when recovering.

swordsaint · Dec 25, 2009

smashkng, everything you just said are things that'll work on crap players only. -_-;;

clowsui · Dec 25, 2009

smashkng said:
Lol everything Snake has being punishable on reaction Clowsui. Average human reaction is 12 frames. Snake's ftilt is 4 frame, his jab 3 frame, his utilt 6 frame, his dtilt 6 frame, his standing grab 8 frame, his bair 6 frame, dash attack 5 frame, his uair 10 frame and his pivot grab 9 frame. Also consider the range of his ftilt and utilt. They also are great for punishing opponents for hitting his shield. And if a grenade explodes on Falco after Shining, it gets a boosted knockback. It's not always good to reflect it. And Snake CAN duck under lasers, which is why his dtilt is good vs Falco.

Snake also lives way longer than Falco, and Falco has not the best approach. Also watch out fsmash, it beats Illusion and I've killed as low as 35% with a slightly charged one, and I have sursprised many Falcos with it who though they were safe when recovering.

i said on the edge rofl, learn to read

in regards to those other points:
1. those stats only matter in a head to head situation. it's easy to tell when those moves are going to come out based on habits and spacing too and it's easy to defend against them
2. that's why you build leads and play it safe. that's why it's a guessing situation. furthermore when you box w/ snake it's going to be a situation of trading, which means my points are still fine.
3. it's not always good to reflect it...but that's why i said u get good at sniping. there's set trajectories on every stage esp. on neutrals. reflecting works well as a mix up. you have more options to beat snake's camp than he does to beat your camp
4. dtilt only actually hits you at a range where phantasm is invincible, ggs
5. fsmash beats illusion but 9/10 times falco will put you in a position where you are shielding before he phantasms. no falco should die at 35 from fsmash w/ good di

Berserker. · Dec 26, 2009

The Snake boards are now discussing Falco. Since most of you guys think it's Falco's favor while we think it's Snake's favor it's time to settle the ratio.

LINK--> http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=258686&page=8

§witch · Dec 26, 2009

It's not falco's advantage. It's at least 55:45 in Snake's favour. Snake can camp faloc just as well as falco can camp snake, and falco can't kill Snake reliably at all.

Snake can camp until he takes enough damage to not have to worry about the chain spike.

swordsaint · Dec 26, 2009

Why does everyone think all Falco has is a chain spike? It's not. Get over it. If we can't land it, it's not a massive hit. Snake can't camp as well as Falco, stop being silly.

smashkng · Dec 26, 2009

clowsui said:
i said on the edge rofl, learn to read

in regards to those other points:
1. those stats only matter in a head to head situation. it's easy to tell when those moves are going to come out based on habits and spacing too and it's easy to defend against them
2. that's why you build leads and play it safe. that's why it's a guessing situation. furthermore when you box w/ snake it's going to be a situation of trading, which means my points are still fine.
3. it's not always good to reflect it...but that's why i said u get good at sniping. there's set trajectories on every stage esp. on neutrals. reflecting works well as a mix up. you have more options to beat snake's camp than he does to beat your camp
4. dtilt only actually hits you at a range where phantasm is invincible, ggs
5. fsmash beats illusion but 9/10 times falco will put you in a position where you are shielding before he phantasms. no falco should die at 35 from fsmash w/ good di

The fsmash was FROM the VERY edge of the stage and Falco slightly offstage. Snake's fsmash is known for being very, very powerful when close to the edge, which that Falco was, I barely KOed it with an a bit charged fsmash and it had a good DI. That's why fsmash SHOULD be avoided, and it's easy to avoid except in a very few situations.

swordsaint · Dec 26, 2009

No, it's easy to avoid in every situation except shield break.

Smashkng, I really hate being blunt or looking down on people, but...you really have no idea about this matchup.

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