• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Snake vs. Kirby

Underload

Lazy
Joined
Nov 1, 2008
Messages
3,433
Location
Morrison, Colorado
Discuss the Kirby matchup in here. Discussion is open indefinitely. Don't be afraid to post.

:snake::kirby2:

Bulletpoints:
  • Avoid low percent grabs, and be ready for Kirby to adapt if you decide to pull a grenade while you're getting chaingrabbed.
  • Be wary while edgeguarding Kirby, especially with mortarslides. One mistake can cost you a stock via Kirbycide.
  • Be very aware of when your opponent likes to bair. It has deceptively good range and priority. Kirby should approach often with it.
  • Kirby has more options with you if he gets at your grenade ability. Either avoid the situation altogether, or know how to defend against it.
  • Kirby can edgeguard you with a number of moves, offstage and on. Don't recover like a robot, be sure you know how to mix things up.
  • Learn to space well with ftilt and utilt, they'll save you from combos and potential kill hits on the ground and in the air, respectively.
  • You'll probably want to ban Pokémon Stadium 1 or Rainbow Cruise, and consider going to Halberd or Final Destination.
  • General consensus is 60:40 in Snake's favor.
Notable Posts:

PROBLEM MOVES:

Grabs - Be wary of some kirby combos at early percents. I've never pulled a nade during a dthrow, but I'll try it. Kirbs can dthrow>utilt x1/2 > usmash/uair and perhaps a follow up depending on DI.

Bair - A great move that knocks us off our cypher. Expect wall of bairs when recovering and sometimes as kirbs approach. It can be hard to punish if he spaces correctly. You can utilt him out of it.

Fsmash - A kill move that's easily punishable. He can use it to punish landing lag and random spot dodges. Shouldn't be too much of a problem, just be wary of it when you're at kill percentages.

WAYS TO AVOID THESE MOVES:

Don't get grabbed.
Bair can be utilted on the ground. When recovery, mix it up with b-reversals, air dodges, FF air dodges, etc. I think a properly spaced bair can hit through our nair, so.
Fsmash - just don't get hit. Can't say more than that.

How we can give them trouble

HOW TO RECOVER:

As always, don't be predictable with b-reversals and usage of your second jump>cypher. Bair knocks us off, so if you keep cyphering, kirbs will just use another jump and bair. If the kirb is desperate, he might attempt a kirbicide, so watch out for that. It may be better to c4 yourself rather than get sucked in or eat a bair if you're too close to the blast zone. Also, don't get baited into an air dodge, cause you might eat a hammer.

EDGEGUARDING:

C4 and mines work well near the edge. Mortars do well too for height, especially with kirbs (5?) jumps. You can ledgehog kirbs FC (final cutter) if you're risky. I personally find it easier to just spam usmash and nades. Note FC has lots of lag, but most likely it will just be used to grab the edge.

TIPS:

Really be wary of bairs. I tried punishing a bair and just got grabbed instead. Utilt really works well to snuff it, but it'll get degraded so. Camping works well too as kirbs is forced to approached. Don't panic if he gets your nades. Honestly, you should be more comfortable using them than kirbs - nevertheless, be wary. Kirbs is light, so you killing shouldn't be a problem.

Ban RC - kirbs can omnigay you here. Absolutely horrible for snake. Bair, bair, and bair some more. Although, if you do get cp'ed here, the top portion is good for utilt kills. Not worth it though.
Brinstar - I do not like this lvl. Lava rising and falling can mess with your camping and can force you jump platform to platform. Kirbs will take advantage of this. Sure there are close horizontal blast zones, but I feel like this lvl benefits kirbs more than snake. I got wrecked here.
Battlefield - Pretty good. We got platform tricks with claymore and c4. Platforms gives us landing options and various tricks. Good stage.
Problem moves:
Grabs, generally at low percents because kirby has plenty of ways to keep following up and rack damage fast if you aren't careful. Fair/bair/dair, the kirby I play with uses each of these to juggle, and dair when I'm abuse shield if he's in the air.

Ways to avoid these moves:
Grabs-Camp him and when he gets close try not to make any risky moves, let him make his approach first and try to react and play it safe. Dont be too risky
Fair/bair-Generally these are used to juggle you in the air and your best solution is to recover high when offstage, b reverse nades/airdodge/bair or nair (make sure you auto cancel the nair and dont be TOO obvious about this one) and the occasional maybe doing just nothing can get you somewhere. Try to stay unpredictable and kirby will have issues keeping you up there.
Dair-This move is annoying because it can shield poke and it puts you in a bad position, especially depending on where you are stage wise. IF kirby is sitting and floating above you, try to avoid just holding your shield because he might just wait and drop down with this to beat it, i fhe does try to pivot grab/utilt to beat it or just run away and keeep camping. Anyways, when kirby does dair he can grab, try to smash at higher percents if it trips or just do it because you might not react properly, he can even do an aerial to confuse you. If you dont wanna risk taking more damage, you can just mortar slide or gtfo of there, but kirby can even catch you in these situations so dont try to do that every time. Its best to just go with your best judgement on what he'll do based on your percent and act upon that.

How we can give them trouble
Pivot grabs work well because kirby has short range, as well as some heavy camping where you mix around nades on the ground and abusing mortars. Tilts might get you shield grabbed, so if anything just play safe and use them for that punisher move when you know its gonna hit or you cant be punished in return.

How to recover vs them
Get the **** up there. Kirby has multiple jumps and can even nail you with his hard hitting side B which does alot and is VERY powerful and you can expect to take alot of damage if you mess up recovering low vs. kirby.

How to edgeguard vs them
Nades on the edge and mortars in the air, just wait to see what he does and dont go after him and be patient.
Any last tips
Rushing in carelessly against kirby will get you *****, so play it very safe and stay in control, as long as you do that snake should be fine.

6/4 snakes favor imo
I don't feel like writing up a long summary so I'll just put in a few points.

You should be camping Kirby all day, as he has no projectiles and really arent that fast.

If he takes your power he can try to camp you back, since he has a few ledge tricks and such with b-reversing nades.

Kirby is really good at punishing, so use your tilts wisely, he can space bairs to beat your f-tilt, and if you miss with an utilt he can punish w/bair/fsmash.

His air game beats yours obviously, but his falling speed isn't that fast, so if you can fast fall under him it will put you at an advantage.

He can WOP you pretty easily, so watch where you go with your cypher, dont be afraid to go straight up and C4 yourself a couple moar times to get a better position to recover.

He can't actually spike you out of cypher because these attacks are multihit and too weak to break it.

He's pretty easy to techchase, his roll and getup animations are a lil bit different from most of the cast, so learn what they look like.

If he shields a C4 explosion he gets a good push from it, so be wary of that.

His uair isn't that strong, so if hes below you in the air its more likely he's going to bait an airdodge and bair/hammer, its better to try to footstool him in that situation.

His Fsmash has great range and knockback, it can kill you early so don't get careless, play it safe and make him do the first move.


As for stages, stay away from rainbow cruise and brinstar, too much fighting in the air.
You generally want to play on the neutral stages, any stage that keep the fighting on the stage and give you room to camp is good.
Snake v Kirby
60:40 Snake

Problem moves

Bair: he'll be doing this a lot. kirby is a rather boring character, and most of his options are horrible. but this one is actually good. very little startup or ending lag, and you can only punish it with anything if you power shield. i recommend grabbing to punish, or jab --> utilt is guaranteed (i believe) if you catch him in the air at kill percents. he'll be baiting you into this move a lot so try and remain stone faced, camp him out of the air, and remember he'll be landing with this move too, so dont take the bait and punish appropriately!

throws: di back and you should avoid all the combos kirby really has (i think dthrow to uair is always a combo from 0%, but at anything higher you can get out of it). alternatively, mash b to pull out a nade. you grab range is longer than his, and any grounded approach he has is easily beaten by pivot grab. remember this and you shouldnt ever get grabbed.

How we can give them trouble

camp him. he'll spend most of his time in the air baiting for a bair, so stay put, cook nades appropriately and knock him out of the sky. pivot grab or ftilt when he's grounded. utilt beats ALL approaches he has, so 'observe and utilt' at kill percents.

How to recover vs them

as standard, recover high and wavebounce around him. ff airdodge through him will work well too. if he's grounded, try to avoid recovering into him. if knocked off early and being chased, get down low and c4 recover; better than losing a stock.

How to edgeguard vs them

he has decent recovery, but its slow and lacks mobility. if he's up high, cook nades and charge mortars. if his di is poor or is recovering at/near stage level, place a mine about a roll's distance from the edge, double jump backwards and use a nikita, trying to buzz it around the ledge. he'll be aiming for the ledge because of his poor mobility. stop him from getting of it (can roll/attack because of the mine, cant jump because of the nikita). if you dont have enough time, remember to try and edge hog him (espc if he uses upB), cause you get an easy punish when he lands.

Stages

keep it neutral. platforms give his aerial camp game so issues, so keep that in mind also. he wants you in the air, so anything where you need to jump (from obstructions or to keep up with a moving stage) is advantageous for him).

pick: bf, sv, lylat, halberd, luigi's (lol)
avoid: fd, brinstar
ban: rc

Any last tips

dont take the bait. simple. stay put, let him come to you. kirby lives off his punish game. take that away from him and its our win. stay put, be patient, and kill him nice and early. his kill moves are all obvious and signposted, so keep your eyes on him and you should be alive for a long time.
When I grab a Snake at 0%, I expect him to pull a grenade after I Fthrow him, so I predict it and regrab->upthrow rather than doing Uair and blowing us both up. This leads to "who will outpredict who?" basically.

Pretty sure your Bair will beat ours, or at least trade hits. We all know that every move Snake has, excluding Cypher (though that too, sometimes) has killing potential.

Our Bair will go stale quickly in this match. Expect a grab and pummels in an attempt to refresh it. Problem is that Snake's stage control and better range makes grabbing hard if the Snake expects it.

I personally will be using Fair and Uair more than Bair, because those moves are horribly underrated. I beat Ftilts with Fair with proper spacing, and it also beats airdodges. In case you watched the Kirby hitbox video, you noticed that Kirby's Upair has AMAZING range. I think it's his best aerial, at least when the opponent is above you in the air or on a platform.

Kirby can utilize grenades better than Snake can if he has enough experience. And of course, an item-held Fsmash is actually deadly with Kirby, and I've surprised quite a few Snakes with it.

Ummm...I think we can Fsmash you if we shield both hits of Ftilt.
Dtilt can sometimes go under Ftilt and hit you, while leaving us safe, but Ftilts range is so broken that you're still more likely to hit us.
Your Uptilt beats everything.

Also, this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zC8DQVpQU7o#t=0m33s

XD

I love it when Snakes knock me offstage, and then chase me with Mortar Slide so that I get a free Kirbycide on them. Feel free to do this often.

One thing Kirby can do pretty well is "air tech chase" or whatever you want to call it. Dthrow Snake, chase him until he lands, and grab and repeat. I can shieldgrab Bair pretty easily.



TL;DR: 60:40 Snake at least. Despite everything we do, you still survive to like 150% easily, while racking up damage faster, and killing earlier and more easily.

*goes to watch Avatar*
 

Sinz

The only true DR vet.
Premium
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
8,189
Please have your responses formated somewhat like this.

Problem moves

Ways to avoid these moves

How we can give them trouble

How to recover vs them

How to edgeguard vs them

Any last tips
 

Sinz

The only true DR vet.
Premium
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
8,189
Relevant Matches
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxTGMPiF0rM Though the match is cut short you can see what to do vs a good kirby.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TggifMEXpB8 This is old, but still has some of the basics vs Kirby in it.


From the Kirby boards said:
Overview:
Snake from Metal Gear Solid joins the Brawl! With extremely broken powers of camping and not dying, he’s a tough matchup. Using his beardly awesomeness to aid him in battle Snake is second on the tier list, but by copying his beard, you can achieve a camping power that surpasses even his own.

Pros+Cons:
+Extremely heavy, making him very difficult to outright KO.
+Camping can force Kirby to approach, which is something Kirby rarely wants to do.
-Kirby is one of the best characters at gimping Snake.
-Heaviness makes him susceptible to aerial juggling.

Watch out for:
Utilt – His utilt has extremely broken range (it outranges every aerial approach you have, except final cutter) and extremely broken power. If hit by it, DI behind Snake to live longer.

Ftilt – It can do a maximum of 21% damage if both hits make contact, and is Snake’s main punishing move.

Usmash – His usmash is a 2-hit attack, one hit with the mortar and one with the small projectile it pushes out. It can be used in a DACUS for a very long range attack, and a smart Snake will use it near the edge when you are recovering.

Pivot Grabs – Snake’s pivot grabs are very broken, much like his weight.

Dthrow & Follow-ups – Snakes dthrow does a decent amount of damage and he can chase you very well do to your slow roll and short roll distance.

How to win:
Get Him in the Air – Snake is afraid of being in the air. All his aerials are too slow to counter yours, which means a jugglefest. Deal damage to him while you can, and expect to take quite a bit when he falls down to earth.

DI His Dair, Nair and Jab– Snake’s dair and nair are 4-hit moves, the last hit being a powerful KO move, and his jab is a 3-hit move with large knockback on the 3rd hit. Make sure to DI them so you don’t get hit by the KOing part.

Inhale Him Out of the Cypher – Inhaling Snake out of the cypher and not spitting him out acts the same as a grab. Jump offstage towards the end of the inhale duration. Either you get a footstool on him, or he DI’s horizontally and can’t bomb jump, resulting in death.

Copy His Power– This probably seems a little confusing, given the previous point, but copying grenades makes winning so much easier. See Spit or Swallow (next section) for more talk about each.

Keep Track of C4 and Mine – Make sure to remember where his C4 and mine are, and if you can, take a look at the clock when he plants a C4. It’ll blow up in ~27 seconds on its own.

Mix up Between Fthrow and Dthrow at the Beginning of Stocks – Snake can pull a ‘nade in each of these cases which will explode after any follow-ups (except aerial hammer after fthrow), but if you read that he’s going to do these, we can get follow-ups on him (inhale after a Dthrow if he pulls a ‘nade, hammer after fthrow if he pulls one…). It eventually becomes a game of mix-ups between pulling a ‘nade or not for Snake and how to attack for Kirby.

Fight for 4th Port – The person in the “better” port (1<2<3<4) won’t get knocked back after a ‘nade explodes and one person is grabbing the other. Kirby is in a perfect position to be hit after a ‘nade explodes if he’s in an inferior port to Snake.

Effectively Use FC’s Projectile – FC’s projectile can blow up Snake’s ‘nades and mines, though expect to have a grenade thrown at you during the long ending lag.

Spit out or Swallow?
Either one has its large advantages. Kirby is even better with ‘nades than Snake, and can camp like the best. You can also use them to deal damage and still live after being hit by a KO attack, if you read your opponent correctly. Be careful about shield-dropped ‘nades: if you wait too long, they will slide out of your reach.

Inhale is also good, because it means an instant gimp on Snake if you can get him in your mouth (it counts as a grab, and grabbing his cypher without pummeling it doesn’t give him it back).

If you’re at medium-high %’s, copy grenades. If he’s at medium-high %’s (where an fsmash would knock him far enough for him to need his upb), spit. Whichever you feel more comfortable with, in general.

Also note that Snake can hit you with the first hit of his dair out of a swallow.

What NOT to do: (more to be added later!)
Approach From the Air at High %’s – Snake’s utilt outranges every air approach you have, except maybe final cutter, which is even more easily punished.

Inhale Riskily – Utilt outranges inhale, meaning that you need to be sure you can hit with it before using it.

Stages (in order of priority):
Rainbow Cruise - Snake is unable to camp very effectively and is often forced into the air, a good scenario for you. Expect Snake to ban it.
Jungle Japes – High ceiling negates utilt kills, the water current hates Snake and your Kirbyciding is very effective here. Just be aware that his explosives are harder to see on this stage.
PS1 - Snake in general does poorly on this stage, and you in general do well. There's a chance that both RC and JJ will be banned, and if they are, this is your go-to.
Lylat Cruise - Snake has good stage control and pressuring (grenades work wonders at pressuring, especially on the platforms), but the stage can mess up his recovery and he can be ninja spiked. It's not a great stage to take him to, but it's not that bad if you end up here.
Brinstar - Close sides in all directions allow for extremely low % kills, he has a cg on the bridge and the acid can save him from gimps.
Halberd – Low ceiling and wide blastzones are the exact opposite of what Kirby wants, while Snake can kill easily. Ban it.
Neutrals: Ranked and Explained:

Key: Blue=Good, Red=Bad.

Yoshi's Island - Snake's least-abusable neutral, and a stage which is arguably one of your better neutrals. You can jump off after inhaling Snake with your face towards the stage for a guaranteed footstool. Pick it, unless PS1 is neutral.
Smashville - Slightly smaller than FD, but the moving platform allows for moving explosives. Try not to take him here.
Battlefield - Platforms aid camping and it's one of Kirby's worst and Snake's best neutrals.
Final Destination - Game summary: Grenade, Grenade, Nikita, plant mine, Snake-Dash, rinse, repeat. Stage strike it. NOW.

Synopsis:
Snake is like DK in that he has some characteristics (large & heavy) that Kirby likes and some that he dislikes (good camper, powerful killer), but worse overall. It’s hard for Kirby to get in, but once he does, Snake is in for some %’s, but Snake can deal a lot of damage to Kirby before he gets in. It’s an uphill matchup, but it’s still possible.
 

Darkshadow7827

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 21, 2007
Messages
1,532
Location
Lower reaches of Shelbrunkand
PROBLEM MOVES:

Grabs - Be wary of some kirby combos at early percents. I've never pulled a nade during a dthrow, but I'll try it. Kirbs can dthrow>utilt x1/2 > usmash/uair and perhaps a follow up depending on DI.

Bair - A great move that knocks us off our cypher. Expect wall of bairs when recovering and sometimes as kirbs approach. It can be hard to punish if he spaces correctly. You can utilt him out of it.

Fsmash - A kill move that's easily punishable. He can use it to punish landing lag and random spot dodges. Shouldn't be too much of a problem, just be wary of it when you're at kill percentages.

WAYS TO AVOID THESE MOVES:

Don't get grabbed.
Bair can be utilted on the ground. When recovery, mix it up with b-reversals, air dodges, FF air dodges, etc. I think a properly spaced bair can hit through our nair, so.
Fsmash - just don't get hit. Can't say more than that.

How we can give them trouble

HOW TO RECOVER:

As always, don't be predictable with b-reversals and usage of your second jump>cypher. Bair knocks us off, so if you keep cyphering, kirbs will just use another jump and bair. If the kirb is desperate, he might attempt a kirbicide, so watch out for that. It may be better to c4 yourself rather than get sucked in or eat a bair if you're too close to the blast zone. Also, don't get baited into an air dodge, cause you might eat a hammer.

EDGEGUARDING:

C4 and mines work well near the edge. Mortars do well too for height, especially with kirbs (5?) jumps. You can ledgehog kirbs FC (final cutter) if you're risky. I personally find it easier to just spam usmash and nades. Note FC has lots of lag, but most likely it will just be used to grab the edge.

TIPS:

Really be wary of bairs. I tried punishing a bair and just got grabbed instead. Utilt really works well to snuff it, but it'll get degraded so. Camping works well too as kirbs is forced to approached. Don't panic if he gets your nades. Honestly, you should be more comfortable using them than kirbs - nevertheless, be wary. Kirbs is light, so you killing shouldn't be a problem.

Ban RC - kirbs can omnigay you here. Absolutely horrible for snake. Bair, bair, and bair some more. Although, if you do get cp'ed here, the top portion is good for utilt kills. Not worth it though.
Brinstar - I do not like this lvl. Lava rising and falling can mess with your camping and can force you jump platform to platform. Kirbs will take advantage of this. Sure there are close horizontal blast zones, but I feel like this lvl benefits kirbs more than snake. I got wrecked here.
Battlefield - Pretty good. We got platform tricks with claymore and c4. Platforms gives us landing options and various tricks. Good stage.

EDIT: MU ratio - 60:40 ; even though my personal experience is worse haha
 

Sinz

The only true DR vet.
Premium
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
8,189
Thank you for your input.

I will be writing a summary after my New Years Eve party
 

napZzz

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
5,294
Location
cg, MN
Problem moves:
Grabs, generally at low percents because kirby has plenty of ways to keep following up and rack damage fast if you aren't careful. Fair/bair/dair, the kirby I play with uses each of these to juggle, and dair when I'm abuse shield if he's in the air.

Ways to avoid these moves:
Grabs-Camp him and when he gets close try not to make any risky moves, let him make his approach first and try to react and play it safe. Dont be too risky
Fair/bair-Generally these are used to juggle you in the air and your best solution is to recover high when offstage, b reverse nades/airdodge/bair or nair (make sure you auto cancel the nair and dont be TOO obvious about this one) and the occasional maybe doing just nothing can get you somewhere. Try to stay unpredictable and kirby will have issues keeping you up there.
Dair-This move is annoying because it can shield poke and it puts you in a bad position, especially depending on where you are stage wise. IF kirby is sitting and floating above you, try to avoid just holding your shield because he might just wait and drop down with this to beat it, i fhe does try to pivot grab/utilt to beat it or just run away and keeep camping. Anyways, when kirby does dair he can grab, try to smash at higher percents if it trips or just do it because you might not react properly, he can even do an aerial to confuse you. If you dont wanna risk taking more damage, you can just mortar slide or gtfo of there, but kirby can even catch you in these situations so dont try to do that every time. Its best to just go with your best judgement on what he'll do based on your percent and act upon that.

How we can give them trouble
Pivot grabs work well because kirby has short range, as well as some heavy camping where you mix around nades on the ground and abusing mortars. Tilts might get you shield grabbed, so if anything just play safe and use them for that punisher move when you know its gonna hit or you cant be punished in return.

How to recover vs them
Get the **** up there. Kirby has multiple jumps and can even nail you with his hard hitting side B which does alot and is VERY powerful and you can expect to take alot of damage if you mess up recovering low vs. kirby.

How to edgeguard vs them
Nades on the edge and mortars in the air, just wait to see what he does and dont go after him and be patient.
Any last tips
Rushing in carelessly against kirby will get you *****, so play it very safe and stay in control, as long as you do that snake should be fine.

6/4 snakes favor imo
 

Yumewomiteru

Smash Master
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
3,367
Location
Allston, MA
NNID
yumewomiteru
I don't feel like writing up a long summary so I'll just put in a few points.

You should be camping Kirby all day, as he has no projectiles and really arent that fast.

If he takes your power he can try to camp you back, since he has a few ledge tricks and such with b-reversing nades.

Kirby is really good at punishing, so use your tilts wisely, he can space bairs to beat your f-tilt, and if you miss with an utilt he can punish w/bair/fsmash.

His air game beats yours obviously, but his falling speed isn't that fast, so if you can fast fall under him it will put you at an advantage.

He can WOP you pretty easily, so watch where you go with your cypher, dont be afraid to go straight up and C4 yourself a couple moar times to get a better position to recover.

He can't actually spike you out of cypher because these attacks are multihit and too weak to break it.

He's pretty easy to techchase, his roll and getup animations are a lil bit different from most of the cast, so learn what they look like.

If he shields a C4 explosion he gets a good push from it, so be wary of that.

His uair isn't that strong, so if hes below you in the air its more likely he's going to bait an airdodge and bair/hammer, its better to try to footstool him in that situation.

His Fsmash has great range and knockback, it can kill you early so don't get careless, play it safe and make him do the first move.


As for stages, stay away from rainbow cruise and brinstar, too much fighting in the air.
You generally want to play on the neutral stages, any stage that keep the fighting on the stage and give you room to camp is good.

edit: I'd call it 55:45 Snake.
 

Underload

Lazy
Joined
Nov 1, 2008
Messages
3,433
Location
Morrison, Colorado
Oh! Something that Sinz and I both forgot to mention, if you could attach a quick ratio to the end of your post, like Nappy did, that would be much obliged. I'll be editing the most popular ratio into the actual matchup thread, just as a quick reference.
 

Attila_

The artist formerly known as 'shmot'
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 22, 2008
Messages
6,025
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Snake v Kirby
60:40 Snake

Problem moves

Bair: he'll be doing this a lot. kirby is a rather boring character, and most of his options are horrible. but this one is actually good. very little startup or ending lag, and you can only punish it with anything if you power shield. i recommend grabbing to punish, or jab --> utilt is guaranteed (i believe) if you catch him in the air at kill percents. he'll be baiting you into this move a lot so try and remain stone faced, camp him out of the air, and remember he'll be landing with this move too, so dont take the bait and punish appropriately!

throws: di back and you should avoid all the combos kirby really has (i think dthrow to uair is always a combo from 0%, but at anything higher you can get out of it). alternatively, mash b to pull out a nade. you grab range is longer than his, and any grounded approach he has is easily beaten by pivot grab. remember this and you shouldnt ever get grabbed.

How we can give them trouble

camp him. he'll spend most of his time in the air baiting for a bair, so stay put, cook nades appropriately and knock him out of the sky. pivot grab or ftilt when he's grounded. utilt beats ALL approaches he has, so 'observe and utilt' at kill percents.

How to recover vs them

as standard, recover high and wavebounce around him. ff airdodge through him will work well too. if he's grounded, try to avoid recovering into him. if knocked off early and being chased, get down low and c4 recover; better than losing a stock.

How to edgeguard vs them

he has decent recovery, but its slow and lacks mobility. if he's up high, cook nades and charge mortars. if his di is poor or is recovering at/near stage level, place a mine about a roll's distance from the edge, double jump backwards and use a nikita, trying to buzz it around the ledge. he'll be aiming for the ledge because of his poor mobility. stop him from getting of it (can roll/attack because of the mine, cant jump because of the nikita). if you dont have enough time, remember to try and edge hog him (espc if he uses upB), cause you get an easy punish when he lands.

Stages

keep it neutral. platforms give his aerial camp game so issues, so keep that in mind also. he wants you in the air, so anything where you need to jump (from obstructions or to keep up with a moving stage) is advantageous for him).

pick: bf, sv, lylat, halberd, luigi's (lol)
avoid: fd, brinstar
ban: rc

Any last tips

dont take the bait. simple. stay put, let him come to you. kirby lives off his punish game. take that away from him and its our win. stay put, be patient, and kill him nice and early. his kill moves are all obvious and signposted, so keep your eyes on him and you should be alive for a long time.
 

Underload

Lazy
Joined
Nov 1, 2008
Messages
3,433
Location
Morrison, Colorado
Excellent input so far, I think I'm going to make the Kirby boards aware of this discussion soon enough. If anyone else has some words to put in, I invite you to do so.
 

Asdioh

Not Asidoh
Joined
Jun 23, 2008
Messages
16,200
Location
OH
When I grab a Snake at 0%, I expect him to pull a grenade after I Fthrow him, so I predict it and regrab->upthrow rather than doing Uair and blowing us both up. This leads to "who will outpredict who?" basically.

Pretty sure your Bair will beat ours, or at least trade hits. We all know that every move Snake has, excluding Cypher (though that too, sometimes) has killing potential.

Our Bair will go stale quickly in this match. Expect a grab and pummels in an attempt to refresh it. Problem is that Snake's stage control and better range makes grabbing hard if the Snake expects it.

I personally will be using Fair and Uair more than Bair, because those moves are horribly underrated. I beat Ftilts with Fair with proper spacing, and it also beats airdodges. In case you watched the Kirby hitbox video, you noticed that Kirby's Upair has AMAZING range. I think it's his best aerial, at least when the opponent is above you in the air or on a platform.

Kirby can utilize grenades better than Snake can if he has enough experience. And of course, an item-held Fsmash is actually deadly with Kirby, and I've surprised quite a few Snakes with it.

Ummm...I think we can Fsmash you if we shield both hits of Ftilt.
Dtilt can sometimes go under Ftilt and hit you, while leaving us safe, but Ftilts range is so broken that you're still more likely to hit us.
Your Uptilt beats everything.

Also, this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zC8DQVpQU7o#t=0m33s

XD

I love it when Snakes knock me offstage, and then chase me with Mortar Slide so that I get a free Kirbycide on them. Feel free to do this often.

One thing Kirby can do pretty well is "air tech chase" or whatever you want to call it. Dthrow Snake, chase him until he lands, and grab and repeat. I can shieldgrab Bair pretty easily.



TL;DR: 60:40 Snake at least. Despite everything we do, you still survive to like 150% easily, while racking up damage faster, and killing earlier and more easily.

*goes to watch Avatar*
 

Kewkky

Uhh... Look at my status.
Premium
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
8,019
Location
San Diego, CA
Switch FC
SW-7001-5337-8820
It's definitely 60:40 if both people know the MU to perfection. I can't think of a more precise ratio. And, you guys pretty much got all of it covered nicely, so meh, no input from me needed.

... Just don't get grabbed at 0%, don't get pushed offstage, and don't recover predictably (our fsmash kills everyone really early, and has a long-lasting hitbox that frametraps easily). Pivot grab us, camp us out, force us to get inside, and don't tilt/DACUS/attack us when you aren't sure it will connect: kirby's attack ranges are very deceptive.
 
Joined
Jun 8, 2009
Messages
18,990
Yeah pretty much, Hey I'm thinking of Wolf as the next MU discussion. What do you think?
 

Sinz

The only true DR vet.
Premium
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
8,189
Bingo, ROB is the next character.

He means keep your movements mixed up and don't do anything stupid(like dash attack against Kirby from afar) Keep b reversing and keeping your distance.
 

Sinz

The only true DR vet.
Premium
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
8,189
I understand Battlefield and Halberd, but I don't agree with stadium. Siege, FD, and Yoshi's are better than PS1 against Kirby.
 

A1lion835

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 7, 2008
Messages
2,844
Location
Lurking the Kirby Social thread with my rock buds.
let me add something against kirby quick, Pokemon Stadium , halberd and Battlefield are ur best stages against Kirby.
I understand Battlefield and Halberd, but I don't agree with stadium. Siege, FD, and Yoshi's are better than PS1 against Kirby.
Sinz is right. And Pokemon Stadium 1 is one of the worst stages any character can take Kirby to. I don't even want to list all of Kirby's advantages there, but I will if anyone asks me to.
 

Attila_

The artist formerly known as 'shmot'
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 22, 2008
Messages
6,025
Location
Melbourne, Australia
as i stated in my post, anything that forces you to move (espc upwards) is advantageous to kirby. you need to stay grounded and still, forcing him to do all the moving. ps1 fails in this respect. bf and halberd are great... sv give him somewhere to run, but i just love it against everyone.
 

RATED

Smash Lord
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
1,627
Location
The Grand Line... PR
Sinz is right. And Pokemon Stadium 1 is one of the worst stages any character can take Kirby to. I don't even want to list all of Kirby's advantages there, but I will if anyone asks me to.
maybe is just my personal preference then. is just that I hate Yoshi's
 

TaterSalad0811

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 7, 2009
Messages
1,281
Location
Doing flying chaingrabs across southeast PA
I don't know about that, seeing as up-throw is a launch into the air, and a small explosion when you hit ground, but I've heard of a trick on the right lip of Skyworld where you can suicide-kill with the up-throw, but if what you say is possible, please elaborate.
 

Yumewomiteru

Smash Master
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
3,367
Location
Allston, MA
NNID
yumewomiteru
I'm not sure on how to do it either, one of my friend who's a Kirby main told me that he can do it, but didn't say how.
 

A1lion835

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 7, 2008
Messages
2,844
Location
Lurking the Kirby Social thread with my rock buds.
...Please?
Doesn't Kirby has a u-throw spike on PS1?
Yea, your right...I've heard about this. But, I don't know too much about it. :confused:
Upthrow Spike Thread.

Upthrow spike vid.

The upthrow spike works on snake, but only with certain timing on the water stage (you need to land on top of the windmill with the uthrow).

So, I'll break it down by which stage you're on.

All forms - Edges allow for stagespikes with dsmash if standing above them, and the edges can pose a problem for other characters, but not Kirby. Kirby can also stand right next to walls and use his up b, sending the projectile through them.

If Kirby gets an inhale off and can shoot opponents under the stage, their recovery will be extremely predict- (and gimp)able.

The blast zones are fairly far away, letting Kirby live longer and putting an emphasis on his great offstage game.

Normal Stage - Not much here. The platforms are nice to use dthrow under so the opponent lands on top of them and has to tech, but they can also be a problem if snake is below and kirby is on them.

Water Stage - We have a [ur=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cg4IDel7nqk]double suicide.[/url] We also have the ninja spike that I mentioned earlier. The windmill provides some nice stone slides. Attacks can stagespike off the windmill (those this is true for all characters).

Fire Stage - Dtilt can be chained continuously up against the tall rock-thing, though it ends rather quickly. Upthrow can be used to KO earlier if it lands on top of the rock. The fall-through ceiling also provides a similar situation with Kirby's dthrow as on the original stage.

Rock Stage - Possibly the best transformation for Kirby. He has a wall infinite in the depression with both his dtilt and jab. The walls also allow Kirby to use his up b and send the projectile through them.

Grass Stage - No real disadvantages for Kirby and he can use his earthquake glitch on the right side of the bush-like thing to the right of the stage.

All your advantage are belong to us.
 

Asdioh

Not Asidoh
Joined
Jun 23, 2008
Messages
16,200
Location
OH
Grass Stage - No real disadvantages for Kirby and he can use his earthquake glitch on the left side of the bush-like thing to the right of the stage.
actually it's the right side, but other than that yeah, what he said.

Kirby has a ******** amount of advantages on PS1 if the opponent doesn't know them.

If the opponent DOES know them, it's still a good stage for Kirby.
 

theONEjanitor

Smash Champion
Joined
May 31, 2006
Messages
2,497
Location
Birmingham, AL
NNID
the1janitor
We also need to note that Kirby can duck under our jab and grab (two of snakes mainly used moves). Uptilt still hits though.

also d-tilt and up-tilt are spotdodge frame traps
 

gallax

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 2, 2008
Messages
5,641
Location
Orlando(UCF), Fl
nothing against kirby mains but if they ban halberd im definately going to PS1 or FD or frigate.

no one should ever get kirbycided. if you do then learn to stay away from the edge and mash buttons faster.

PS1 allows for so many traps and allows for such a great camping atmosphere idk why you wouldnt want to take anyone here(some exceptions include fox/sheik since its better to fight them face to face). but since kirby has no projectile just camp him the entire time and force an approach. learn how he approaches then predict and punish.

sure it will have platforms but i love platforms. pop a c4 there and platform camp. bait an uair and shield drop a nade. what about if WE get a grab on a platform? its gonna be 35% minimum damage if you hold your shield button then react to what the kirby does.

kirby will not live longer since it has a 5% lower cieling and utilt/c4 kills kirby fast since he is light weight. we kill vertically mostly, not horizontally. plus snake should never be following kirby offstage. rather popping mortars and then ledge grabbing to force a high recovery through mortars. try a nikita if you want too.

even if kirby gets a grab underneath the highest platform on the fire stage it shouldnt kill us that early since we are the second heaviest character. if you do die its either b/c you have bad DI or at a really high percent and deserve to die anyways. you've done god avoiding a bair/fmash up to this point and having a high percentage death like that means you've used that stock well. and if you are at high percent then avoid being grabbed underneath that platform.
 
Top Bottom