Underload
Lazy
Discuss the Kirby matchup in here. Discussion is open indefinitely. Don't be afraid to post.
Bulletpoints:
Bulletpoints:
- Avoid low percent grabs, and be ready for Kirby to adapt if you decide to pull a grenade while you're getting chaingrabbed.
- Be wary while edgeguarding Kirby, especially with mortarslides. One mistake can cost you a stock via Kirbycide.
- Be very aware of when your opponent likes to bair. It has deceptively good range and priority. Kirby should approach often with it.
- Kirby has more options with you if he gets at your grenade ability. Either avoid the situation altogether, or know how to defend against it.
- Kirby can edgeguard you with a number of moves, offstage and on. Don't recover like a robot, be sure you know how to mix things up.
- Learn to space well with ftilt and utilt, they'll save you from combos and potential kill hits on the ground and in the air, respectively.
- You'll probably want to ban Pokémon Stadium 1 or Rainbow Cruise, and consider going to Halberd or Final Destination.
- General consensus is 60:40 in Snake's favor.
PROBLEM MOVES:
Grabs - Be wary of some kirby combos at early percents. I've never pulled a nade during a dthrow, but I'll try it. Kirbs can dthrow>utilt x1/2 > usmash/uair and perhaps a follow up depending on DI.
Bair - A great move that knocks us off our cypher. Expect wall of bairs when recovering and sometimes as kirbs approach. It can be hard to punish if he spaces correctly. You can utilt him out of it.
Fsmash - A kill move that's easily punishable. He can use it to punish landing lag and random spot dodges. Shouldn't be too much of a problem, just be wary of it when you're at kill percentages.
WAYS TO AVOID THESE MOVES:
Don't get grabbed.
Bair can be utilted on the ground. When recovery, mix it up with b-reversals, air dodges, FF air dodges, etc. I think a properly spaced bair can hit through our nair, so.
Fsmash - just don't get hit. Can't say more than that.
How we can give them trouble
HOW TO RECOVER:
As always, don't be predictable with b-reversals and usage of your second jump>cypher. Bair knocks us off, so if you keep cyphering, kirbs will just use another jump and bair. If the kirb is desperate, he might attempt a kirbicide, so watch out for that. It may be better to c4 yourself rather than get sucked in or eat a bair if you're too close to the blast zone. Also, don't get baited into an air dodge, cause you might eat a hammer.
EDGEGUARDING:
C4 and mines work well near the edge. Mortars do well too for height, especially with kirbs (5?) jumps. You can ledgehog kirbs FC (final cutter) if you're risky. I personally find it easier to just spam usmash and nades. Note FC has lots of lag, but most likely it will just be used to grab the edge.
TIPS:
Really be wary of bairs. I tried punishing a bair and just got grabbed instead. Utilt really works well to snuff it, but it'll get degraded so. Camping works well too as kirbs is forced to approached. Don't panic if he gets your nades. Honestly, you should be more comfortable using them than kirbs - nevertheless, be wary. Kirbs is light, so you killing shouldn't be a problem.
Ban RC - kirbs can omnigay you here. Absolutely horrible for snake. Bair, bair, and bair some more. Although, if you do get cp'ed here, the top portion is good for utilt kills. Not worth it though.
Brinstar - I do not like this lvl. Lava rising and falling can mess with your camping and can force you jump platform to platform. Kirbs will take advantage of this. Sure there are close horizontal blast zones, but I feel like this lvl benefits kirbs more than snake. I got wrecked here.
Battlefield - Pretty good. We got platform tricks with claymore and c4. Platforms gives us landing options and various tricks. Good stage.
Problem moves:
Grabs, generally at low percents because kirby has plenty of ways to keep following up and rack damage fast if you aren't careful. Fair/bair/dair, the kirby I play with uses each of these to juggle, and dair when I'm abuse shield if he's in the air.
Ways to avoid these moves:
Grabs-Camp him and when he gets close try not to make any risky moves, let him make his approach first and try to react and play it safe. Dont be too risky
Fair/bair-Generally these are used to juggle you in the air and your best solution is to recover high when offstage, b reverse nades/airdodge/bair or nair (make sure you auto cancel the nair and dont be TOO obvious about this one) and the occasional maybe doing just nothing can get you somewhere. Try to stay unpredictable and kirby will have issues keeping you up there.
Dair-This move is annoying because it can shield poke and it puts you in a bad position, especially depending on where you are stage wise. IF kirby is sitting and floating above you, try to avoid just holding your shield because he might just wait and drop down with this to beat it, i fhe does try to pivot grab/utilt to beat it or just run away and keeep camping. Anyways, when kirby does dair he can grab, try to smash at higher percents if it trips or just do it because you might not react properly, he can even do an aerial to confuse you. If you dont wanna risk taking more damage, you can just mortar slide or gtfo of there, but kirby can even catch you in these situations so dont try to do that every time. Its best to just go with your best judgement on what he'll do based on your percent and act upon that.
How we can give them trouble
Pivot grabs work well because kirby has short range, as well as some heavy camping where you mix around nades on the ground and abusing mortars. Tilts might get you shield grabbed, so if anything just play safe and use them for that punisher move when you know its gonna hit or you cant be punished in return.
How to recover vs them
Get the **** up there. Kirby has multiple jumps and can even nail you with his hard hitting side B which does alot and is VERY powerful and you can expect to take alot of damage if you mess up recovering low vs. kirby.
How to edgeguard vs them
Nades on the edge and mortars in the air, just wait to see what he does and dont go after him and be patient.
Any last tips
Rushing in carelessly against kirby will get you *****, so play it very safe and stay in control, as long as you do that snake should be fine.
6/4 snakes favor imo
I don't feel like writing up a long summary so I'll just put in a few points.
You should be camping Kirby all day, as he has no projectiles and really arent that fast.
If he takes your power he can try to camp you back, since he has a few ledge tricks and such with b-reversing nades.
Kirby is really good at punishing, so use your tilts wisely, he can space bairs to beat your f-tilt, and if you miss with an utilt he can punish w/bair/fsmash.
His air game beats yours obviously, but his falling speed isn't that fast, so if you can fast fall under him it will put you at an advantage.
He can WOP you pretty easily, so watch where you go with your cypher, dont be afraid to go straight up and C4 yourself a couple moar times to get a better position to recover.
He can't actually spike you out of cypher because these attacks are multihit and too weak to break it.
He's pretty easy to techchase, his roll and getup animations are a lil bit different from most of the cast, so learn what they look like.
If he shields a C4 explosion he gets a good push from it, so be wary of that.
His uair isn't that strong, so if hes below you in the air its more likely he's going to bait an airdodge and bair/hammer, its better to try to footstool him in that situation.
His Fsmash has great range and knockback, it can kill you early so don't get careless, play it safe and make him do the first move.
As for stages, stay away from rainbow cruise and brinstar, too much fighting in the air.
You generally want to play on the neutral stages, any stage that keep the fighting on the stage and give you room to camp is good.
Snake v Kirby
60:40 Snake
Problem moves
Bair: he'll be doing this a lot. kirby is a rather boring character, and most of his options are horrible. but this one is actually good. very little startup or ending lag, and you can only punish it with anything if you power shield. i recommend grabbing to punish, or jab --> utilt is guaranteed (i believe) if you catch him in the air at kill percents. he'll be baiting you into this move a lot so try and remain stone faced, camp him out of the air, and remember he'll be landing with this move too, so dont take the bait and punish appropriately!
throws: di back and you should avoid all the combos kirby really has (i think dthrow to uair is always a combo from 0%, but at anything higher you can get out of it). alternatively, mash b to pull out a nade. you grab range is longer than his, and any grounded approach he has is easily beaten by pivot grab. remember this and you shouldnt ever get grabbed.
How we can give them trouble
camp him. he'll spend most of his time in the air baiting for a bair, so stay put, cook nades appropriately and knock him out of the sky. pivot grab or ftilt when he's grounded. utilt beats ALL approaches he has, so 'observe and utilt' at kill percents.
How to recover vs them
as standard, recover high and wavebounce around him. ff airdodge through him will work well too. if he's grounded, try to avoid recovering into him. if knocked off early and being chased, get down low and c4 recover; better than losing a stock.
How to edgeguard vs them
he has decent recovery, but its slow and lacks mobility. if he's up high, cook nades and charge mortars. if his di is poor or is recovering at/near stage level, place a mine about a roll's distance from the edge, double jump backwards and use a nikita, trying to buzz it around the ledge. he'll be aiming for the ledge because of his poor mobility. stop him from getting of it (can roll/attack because of the mine, cant jump because of the nikita). if you dont have enough time, remember to try and edge hog him (espc if he uses upB), cause you get an easy punish when he lands.
Stages
keep it neutral. platforms give his aerial camp game so issues, so keep that in mind also. he wants you in the air, so anything where you need to jump (from obstructions or to keep up with a moving stage) is advantageous for him).
pick: bf, sv, lylat, halberd, luigi's (lol)
avoid: fd, brinstar
ban: rc
Any last tips
dont take the bait. simple. stay put, let him come to you. kirby lives off his punish game. take that away from him and its our win. stay put, be patient, and kill him nice and early. his kill moves are all obvious and signposted, so keep your eyes on him and you should be alive for a long time.
When I grab a Snake at 0%, I expect him to pull a grenade after I Fthrow him, so I predict it and regrab->upthrow rather than doing Uair and blowing us both up. This leads to "who will outpredict who?" basically.
Pretty sure your Bair will beat ours, or at least trade hits. We all know that every move Snake has, excluding Cypher (though that too, sometimes) has killing potential.
Our Bair will go stale quickly in this match. Expect a grab and pummels in an attempt to refresh it. Problem is that Snake's stage control and better range makes grabbing hard if the Snake expects it.
I personally will be using Fair and Uair more than Bair, because those moves are horribly underrated. I beat Ftilts with Fair with proper spacing, and it also beats airdodges. In case you watched the Kirby hitbox video, you noticed that Kirby's Upair has AMAZING range. I think it's his best aerial, at least when the opponent is above you in the air or on a platform.
Kirby can utilize grenades better than Snake can if he has enough experience. And of course, an item-held Fsmash is actually deadly with Kirby, and I've surprised quite a few Snakes with it.
Ummm...I think we can Fsmash you if we shield both hits of Ftilt.
Dtilt can sometimes go under Ftilt and hit you, while leaving us safe, but Ftilts range is so broken that you're still more likely to hit us.
Your Uptilt beats everything.
Also, this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zC8DQVpQU7o#t=0m33s
XD
I love it when Snakes knock me offstage, and then chase me with Mortar Slide so that I get a free Kirbycide on them. Feel free to do this often.
One thing Kirby can do pretty well is "air tech chase" or whatever you want to call it. Dthrow Snake, chase him until he lands, and grab and repeat. I can shieldgrab Bair pretty easily.
TL;DR: 60:40 Snake at least. Despite everything we do, you still survive to like 150% easily, while racking up damage faster, and killing earlier and more easily.
*goes to watch Avatar*