Counterpick Stages (vs. Kirby)

NickRiddle · Feb 6, 2010

solecalibur said:
I was deciding if we should make a stage topic

I am making a thread off of this idea. Later on, Dazwa can change the owner of it to whomever he wants, I don't care.

Unlike other ZSS threads, I want this one to move quickly. Every week I will be changing the character. If nothing is posted for X character that week, then get skipped until the end!

Well, the tier list changed, so I'm going to go with the new order.

Next up is Kirby. Hey, the font color actually matches the character.

Please give me your idea for what stages to take him to/ban/strike, along with reasoning behind it.

DISCUSS!

Metaknight
Strikes: BF/YI/Halberd/PS1
Bans: BF/Halberd/Delfino (Sharking stages.)
CP: FD/Lylat (I also like Brinstar.)

Snake
Strike: BF/FD/Halberd/Lylat
Ban: BF/Halberd
CP: Delfino/Siege/RC/SV?

Wario
Strike: BF/Lylat/Delfino/Siege
Ban: RC/Japes/Brinster
CP: Halberd/YI/Frigate?/Delfino?

Diddy
Strike: SV/FD/Delfino/PS1
Ban: SV/FD/Delfino
CP: Brinstar/RC/CS/BF/Frigate

Falco
Strike: FD/SV/Delfino/PS1
Ban: FD/Japes
CP: RC/Frigate/CS/BF

Ice Climbers:
Strike: YI/SV/FD/PS1
Ban: SV?/YI?/FD/Delfino
CP: Brinstar/RC/CS/BF/Frigate

Marth:
Strike: (Platforms) BF/YI/SV/Lylat
Ban: BF
CP: FD/Halberd/Other flat levels

DDD
Strike: SV/YI/Halberd/BF
Ban: The neutral you feel least comfortable on.
CP: RC/Delfino/CS/FD

Pikachu
Strikes FD/SV/YI/CS
Ban: FD/RC
CP: BF/Brinstar/Delfino/CS (If you are feeling comfortable with not getting CGed off the side.)

Olimar
Strike: FD/BF/CS/PS1
Ban: Halberd/Delfino
CP: RC/Lylat/Frigate

Lucario
Strike: FD/YI/BF/Delfino
Ban: JAPES/FD/PS2
CP: RC/Brinstar/Halberd/PS1

GW
Strike: Lylat/SV/YI/Halberd
Ban: Norfair/RC/Brinstar
CP: Delfino/BF/PS1

Pit
Strike: BF/Lylat/SV/Halberd
Ban: BF/SV
CP: FD/YI

Toon Link
Strike: Halberd/SV/PS1/YI
Ban: Halberd/SV/Brinstar
CP: Norfair/Delfino/RC/Green Greens

ZSS
Any stage you feel you will do better than your opponent.

Kirby
Strike:
Ban:
CP:

Zero · Feb 6, 2010

Pick: Battlefield. Mindgame + you're hax on that stage too.

If you're not maschistic, FD. More room to play around and more room to retreat if you feel too pressured.

Strike: Smashville/Battlefield.

CP: Cruise/Brinstar. Or FD if again, you don't feel up to the task. Personally, I love bringing MK to his own "gay" stages to challenge him there.

Supermodel From Paris · Feb 6, 2010

I've had the most luck on FD vs Meta Knight, but the matches are boring as ****.

solecalibur · Feb 6, 2010

Metaknight hates flat they will get rid of Fd and I see a majority get rid of YI as well unless your vs judge (that <3 FD) pick BF or Llyat/Ps1 , SV they are more viable to plank/scourge

CP's I have to have a successful on going CP for metaknight but my personal favorites are -Halberd (if you can read there shark Dsmash -) Dair )
-Pirate Ship (Midwest?) Finding a love for this stage since yesterday easy to stop planking on both sides (DONT SWIM just take your time and keep your eye on the bomb) ( Dsmash -) Dair works more effective but dont use blind Dairs when trying to spike someone wait for the stun to get them)
-Ps1 -
-Brinstar Not as effective of a stage compared to the others but I took M2k last stock 90% on his last stock once =p
-

My Cp's for Zss are a bit unorthodox but seem effective

Ban
I ban normaly Japes (Lol midwest), RC, or Delfino depending on the tendency of the meta's Cp history

I'll add more later....maybe something zss would normaly Cp

Nefarious B · Feb 6, 2010

FD is good for giving you more room to run from tornado and not giving him any plats to mix up his landings on. Also you won't get shuttle looped for stupid early kills generally. PS1 is good for the same reasons except with more spice with the stage transformations.

Honestly I don't think any of the neutrals are that bad, I don't really like Lylat against short characters though.

Other than that, japes is bad but nothing stands out as horrible or advantageous to me

ph00tbag · Feb 6, 2010

Honestly, I feel like MK's pretty much like a better ZSS. He gets the same advantages and disadvantages from stages that she does. The only thing he doesn't like that ZSS gets more mileage out of is a lack of platforms, and he'll just ban FD from CPing.

Rybaia · Feb 6, 2010

Neutrals: FD or YI. I personally love YI against him.

CP: Norfair (lol Italy) or Lylat (here is neutral).
I usually ban Frigate.

xxpatgxx · Feb 7, 2010

From experience it all comes down to how good the mk, plus you factor if he knows the ZSS matchup.

FD is essentially a good stage for ZSS vs MK as she has lots of room to camp with the parts to catch a good lead in the match. However mks that know the matchup will just do their best to either powershield the parts and pick them up to throw them off, or just Z catch to either throw them off, or use them to string combos on you.

PS1 is a better cp if you know how to use the stage to your advantage. You can get some devastating combos under the windmill, but so can he on you. Also, the changing terrain kind of gives both players breathing room, because I'm sure when that brown tree comes up, no one is approaching for the duration of its presence.

SV is alright, but to evade mk you have to use the moving platform which is risky when it moves closer to the blastzone.

BF, and YI aren't horrible cps against mk, but most of the match to avoid him you have to platform camp, and ZSS will get juggled by mk in the air.

NickRiddle · Feb 7, 2010

So, so far it's FD is our best neutral, but they'll probably strike it, and we'll strike BF.
That leaves SV, YI, and LC. (For a 5-neutral set that most areas adopt.)

Out of these, which do you guy think is the worst for us? Based on that, we can narrow it down to our two best possible stages (assuming that FD strike.)

Also, CP stages are wide-spread it seems. Please discuss those a little bit more, since they could be important.

My 2 cents:
FD is def. our best neutral, with SV being a close second. (The platform helps us escape MK's deadly ledge-pressure if we platform-cancel.)

BF/YI/LC in my exp. aren't as good as those two. BF is too small for us to do much, YI's tilted floor makes it hard to hit MK, but the ghost helps us more than it helps MK. (How often do MKs die downward?) Lylat has the same tilted floors, and platforms, which are also bad for us IMO.

CPs would be Brinstar, (my pref, sincei t's my best level) and Delfino. It's harder for MK to shark on Brinstar with all the stuff in the way, the lava saves us, and the walls are small so MK dies early. (We do too, but MK can kill us early on any stage by reading us twice.)
Delfino has walk-offs, so we can kill MK with that, his sharking is useless thanks to the platforms that are always there, and the water helps/hurts us both, with MK's dair, and our d-smash/side-b working well to keep people in there.

Halberd has MK sharking for a lot of the stage, the platform there is low, so up-b can still hit us and the low ceiling helps us both kill.
PS1, MK has much more stage control than we do, and the multiple walls give him a d-tilt lock.
Castle Siege's first and third part help MK far more than us, and he can camp us on the second part.
Japes is just terrible for us in general, and it's decent for MK, so that's a big no.
RC can go either way, but MK's tools for gimping us become stupidly effective here, while he just recovers from anywhere that isn't the blast-zone.

DISCUSS!

#HBC | ZoZo · Feb 7, 2010

Counterpick Hanenbow on MK against MK.

Kewkky · Feb 7, 2010

Umm... Battlefield should be one of our best bets against MK. We're safe from MK's descending attacks while he's not safe against out great vertical-ranged attacks due to the platforms, and landing for us isn't hard at all thanks to our long tether for ledges, footstool ability, hi-speed dair for situational moments where attacking is better than evading, wavebouncing, even airdodges... AND the floor is flat! That is GREAT, we can actually use our pieces here compared to YI and (in select tourneys) LC, and out attacks won't miss by a very small height difference.

I always take MKs to Battlefield, always... As both Kirby or ZSS. I can't really say anything about CPs since I barely if ever choose them over neutrals, only thing I can say is that BF is my preferred neutral AND CP out of all the other stages.

NickRiddle · Feb 7, 2010

Kewkky said:
Umm... Battlefield should be one of our best bets against MK. We're safe from MK's descending attacks while he's not safe against out great vertical-ranged attacks due to the platforms, and landing for us isn't hard at all thanks to our long tether for ledges, footstool ability, hi-speed dair for situational moments where attacking is better than evading, wavebouncing, even airdodges... This stage does not aid our recovery at all. MK can still read all of our options, and punish. Also, why is MK airborne vs. ZSS, when he does better grounded? AND the floor is flat! That is GREAT, we can actually use our pieces here compared to YI and (in select tourneys) LC, and out attacks won't miss by a very small height difference.We start on a platform, as does MK. That ALREADY puts us in a bad position to use items.

I always take MKs to Battlefield, always... As both Kirby or ZSS. I can't really say anything about CPs since I barely if ever choose them over neutrals, only thing I can say is that BF is my preferred neutral AND CP out of all the other stages.

To each his/her own I guess.

Kewkky · Feb 7, 2010

NickRiddle said:
To each his/her own I guess.

Let's see... MK is airborne because we put him airborne. Or are you telling me this is physically impossible, and that dtilt has no use?

Okay, let's see... Start the match, drop off the platform, zcatch while falling. HUZZAH! You can even zcatch while falling then do whatever you want with the extra air time you have before you touch the ground, seeing as z-catching doesn't have any animations at all.

NickRiddle · Feb 7, 2010

Kewkky said:
Let's see... MK is airborne because we put him airborne. Or are you telling me this is physically impossible, and that dtilt has no use? It does, but the platforms here to not help us or hurt MK enough to make any impact at all. If you play GOOD MKs at least.

Okay, let's see... Start the match, drop off the platform, zcatch while falling. HUZZAH! You can even zcatch while falling then do whatever you want with the extra air time you have before you touch the ground, seeing as z-catching doesn't have any animations at all.This is pretty slow compared to starting with them next to you. Also, considering that MK's item control is not bad, throwing a few away at the beginning of a match seems quite beneficial to me.

This .

Nefarious B · Feb 7, 2010

Nick on battle field just drop through the plat instant throw the first piece, it's a distraction that gives you time to grab another piece and get to the ground

NickRiddle · Feb 7, 2010

Nefarious B said:
Nick on battle field just drop through the plat instant throw the first piece, it's a distraction that gives you time to grab another piece and get to the ground

Counter!

MK runs off the platform, and ADs to catch the item, then ADCIT(air-dodge-cancelled-item-throw)s it back at you. Now you shield and are at a disadvantage, or you get hit and have damage, MK has your pieces, and you're at a HUGE disadvantage.
Pieces on small stages suck. :D
Throw them off!

If you're giong to use them, the best bet is to throw them upwards, and give yourself some space control with them.

Ugh, this stage.

xxpatgxx · Feb 7, 2010

NickRiddle said:
Counter!

MK runs off the platform, and ADs to catch the item, then ADCIT(air-dodge-cancelled-item-throw)s it back at you. Now you shield and are at a disadvantage, or you get hit and have damage, MK has your pieces, and you're at a HUGE disadvantage.
Pieces on small stages suck. :D
Throw them off!

If you're giong to use them, the best bet is to throw them upwards, and give yourself some space control with them.

Ugh, this stage.

On small stages it's just safer to hold one piece in your hand. That alone pressures an mk, and just like diddy's bananna peel you can just punish a shielded approach OOs with the piece.

Kewkky · Feb 7, 2010

NickRiddle said:
This .

I do play a good MK who knows the matchup pretty nice, so I have to mix up a lot and keep ahead of the game. Knocking him in the air forces him to suffer a bit while trying to land since we can harrass him while he's above us, and our dtilt combos into a buffered uair (both sh for low %, and fh for high %... Of course we need some running momentum to catch up to him since he'll DI away), knocking him even higher.

How is dropping off a platform and zcatching an item while doing so slow in any way? That's one of the 2 fastest things you can do if you want to catch>throw pieces. If you wanna get rid of your pieces, do that then ADCIT them offstage until you have one left, and you'll have the last piece in your hand before MK reaches you and also be able to do anything since you won't be committing to any animations when zcatching/ADCITing, besides throwing.

NickRiddle said:
Counter!

MK runs off the platform, and ADs to catch the item, then ADCIT(air-dodge-cancelled-item-throw)s it back at you. Now you shield and are at a disadvantage, or you get hit and have damage, MK has your pieces, and you're at a HUGE disadvantage.

Okay, that was some serious theorycrafting crazyness. Frame data shows that dropping+ADCIT/zcatch+throw is practically the same speed it takes MK to run and finally get off the platform. If MK does that, that's some incredibly amazingly incredible prediction skills, since like you said, it's a very small stage and it takes ~5 frames or less for the item to reach the opponent... Too few for any human to react, much less for a guy to watch the piece until it's near ADCIT range AND hit you back before YOU can react. Heck, ifhe ADCITs it back to you, just ADCIT back to him if you truly believe the MK player can do that. And if you outpredict him knowing that he'll do that (highly improbable), then don't throw the piece to him and bait him into trying to ADCIT a piece that will never be thrown to him, and now he's landing while airdodging and you have him where you want him... And why shield? It's way easier and safer to just jump and zcatch/ADCIT. Believe me, zcatching is too easy once you know what the maximum horizontal range for catching items is.

I do agree that each person has his own opinions, which is why I won't try and persuade you. Your way of playing works for you, and I don't see why you should fix something that ain't broke.

Supermodel From Paris · Feb 7, 2010

I think you guys are overestimating Battlefield for MK.

It's defintely a good stage for him, but it is ZSS' best stage period and I think she juggles with platforms just as well if not better than he does. It is hard to run from nado there, though.

NickRiddle · Feb 7, 2010

Supermodel From Paris said:
I think you guys are overestimating Battlefield for MK.

It's defintely a good stage for him, but it is ZSS' best stage period and I think she juggles with platforms just as well if not better than he does. It is hard to run from nado there, though.

I'm biased. I think that BF is not a good level for ZSS vs. about 50% of the cast. ZSS is terrible vs. people below her, so she goes up there and... gets ****ed.

Adapt · Feb 7, 2010

I tend to take MK to Norfair

We have plenty of recovery options, and if we get successfully read, we have a chance to bounce back from the lava. Brinstar is similar, but I prefer Norfair myself, I am excellent at avoiding the stage hazards.

I understand that in some areas Norfair is banned... in that case I would agree with Nick and go Brinstar.

solecalibur · Feb 7, 2010

Nofair MK also has a ton of options and my input on BF is that once im on top its some what difficult to get back down on that stage and some characters have better stage control thats all

Kewkky · Feb 7, 2010

It's not THAT hard to get down... We have good fall speed and running speed, we just make our way down slowly. MK is limited in that he has to predict where we're gonna go and race us there to meet us. We take advantage of this fact (it's a player-based situation) and the way down isn't so hard to find.

If MK tornados? Footstool, and time when you will want to airdodge through... Preferably once it's ending. He'll fall with lag if he's not at optimum height, and if he's at optimum height he won't reach us with tornado when we touch ground, giving us time to shield the last remaining moments of his tornado.

noradseven · Feb 7, 2010

WTF guys strike yoshi's **** high ceiling and that **** platform is worse for use than MK.

I would pick FD, if I knew I was solidly better than them.
Cruise if I knew they didn't get to play it much everyone strikes it against them.
Brinstar not the best of moves, but alot of MKs honesty don't know how to abuse **** on this stage, if you don't seem to CP to here sometime, I would go with this.
Nofair is a good solid pick against MK...normally banned stage though.
BF ehhh I don't like the 2 low platforms and small stage...however MK doesn't have the best of ground games and if we can force him above us it can be fairly good in this case, its a weird stage to play on though.

Basically there really arn't any ohhhh **** im fighting MK on X stage with ZSS im dead... we tend to like and dislike the same stuff.

solecalibur · Feb 8, 2010

noradseven said:
WTF guys strike yoshi's **** high ceiling and that **** platform is worse for use than MK.

Mk's normaly strike it for me, I find the stage more useful with the "Random" platforms

Rybaia · Feb 8, 2010

Castle Siege can be a good stage?

xxpatgxx · Feb 8, 2010

^ Walk off cg, thanks for the reminder.

Supermodel From Paris · Feb 9, 2010

You can walk-off anyone on CS by dash attacking them to the side and then doing a low-angled ftilt buffered near the side.

Nefarious B · Feb 10, 2010

Can we still do it if we hit the statues? I'd think the added hitlag would be enough to mess it up

noradseven · Feb 10, 2010

solecalibur said:
Mk's normaly strike it for me, I find the stage more useful with the "Random" platforms

Lucky you its not a great MK stage either but that high ceiling wrecks us harder.

solecalibur · Feb 14, 2010

*cough* next

NickRiddle · Feb 15, 2010

Okay guys, it's Snake(ee) now.

My opinion:
Strike BF/SV. Snake's playground, and the platform that'll probably save him.
Ban BF. Still Snake's best level if they can use the platforms well.
CP to FD, Norfair if it's legal, Brinstar, maybe RC.

Discuss!

Zero · Feb 15, 2010

Ban Halberd. Battlefield can at least help you a lot.

#HBC | ZoZo · Feb 15, 2010

Nick what is your strategy against a campy snake on FD?

NickRiddle · Feb 15, 2010

Xonar said:
Nick what is your strategy against a campy snake on FD?

Stay all up in his grill. Make it so that if he pulls a nade, you can punish it with a d-tilt. And then just stay out of his grab range. Assume the tilts/dacus is coming, and try to punish each of them.

Zero_ said:
Ban Halberd. Battlefield can at least help you a lot.

IMO, Halberd is a MUCH better level for us. His recovery makes it so we can get really early uair kills. Also, the BF platforms make it practically impossible for us to approach. If Snake knows how to control them, you will never really advance towards him.

Zero · Feb 15, 2010

Can you explain this so-called control?

At least on Battlefield you don't die at 20%. You die at 30% instead.

NickRiddle · Feb 15, 2010

Zero_ said:
Can you explain this so-called control?

At least on Battlefield you don't die at 20%. You die at 30% instead.

C4 on one platform, D-smash on another platform. Then, nades, while hiding under a platform.
Hit him without a side-B, which Snake can punish like nothing, and grab, which Snake can also punish like nothing..

Zero · Feb 15, 2010

You can get rid of a dsmash with sideB/upB/nB, if it's on any platform. Crawl approach to avoid grenades?

NickRiddle · Feb 15, 2010

Zero_ said:
You can get rid of a dsmash with sideB/upB/nB, if it's on any platform. Crawl approach to avoid grenades?

Well, the mine isn't really necessary. So, you crawl under his nades and hit him with...?

Zero · Feb 15, 2010

Dtilt? If he spotdodges, dsmash/whatever you want? Or you could do nothing and react to whatever he does. Grab if you're really game?

Counterpick Stages (vs. Kirby)

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