Matchup Re-Discussion: Wario

KayLo! · Mar 29, 2010

Pikachu vs. Wario
( Link to central matchup thread. )

Resources for discussion:

Current MU Ratio (subject to change after discussion): 45:55 in Wario's favor
Can we CG him?: Yes

- 7% - 26% + regrab
- Dthrow x 2 > grab
*Escapable anytime with a footstool.

Our Original Matchup Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=212672
Their Matchup Opinion/Thread: 45:55 in Wario's favor, http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7687368

Pikachu Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=223901
Wario Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=210128

Summary:

In progress.

Zeroxius · Mar 30, 2010

Definitely don't destroy his bike. That could lead to crippling his recovery a lot.

gamesuxcard · Mar 30, 2010

Why would you ever destroy warios bike?

Syko_Lemming · Mar 30, 2010

isaccard said:
Why would you ever destroy warios bike?

Cause blowing stuff up is fun.

And if you're not joking, then I think you misunderstood zero. He means if you don't destroy warios' bike he has trouble recovering ...because of no bike...

gamesuxcard · Mar 30, 2010

Exactly, if you don't destroy his bike he has trouble recovering.

why would you ever destroy warios bike?

KayLo! · Mar 30, 2010

Okay, we get it, don't destroy Wario's bike. x.o

In any case, let's discuss some other areas of the matchup. I think ESAM mentioned that if you hit Wario with fair, you can semi-wall him with more fairs..... I'm kind of interested in that.

Otherwise, strategies vs. an aircamping Wario with platforms to work with would probably be the most helpful since that's the most difficult kind of Wario to deal with. My only experience vs. Wario with Pika comes from dubs, so. Meh.

gamesuxcard · Mar 30, 2010

Um. The air game is funny. If you have the lead there is no reason to approach, I know I say this for every matchup but our small yellow friend needs everything he can get. Space where you feel comfortably safe and whiff an aerial close to the ground as a bait. One he starts his aerials, dont get greedy. If you're spaced right for a bair, do it, or qac to proper spacing to bair. If you see his bair, uair. If you see his airdodge, apparently getting the ready is a good idea, or you can fullhop a dair. Watch his airdodges really, if he tries to cross you up or poke your sheild upair/usmash oos or qac away.

And if you're above him just get away or airdodge through. DO NOT airdodge early or you will get clapped and kills us too early. Challenging clap is really risky too.. it's not really worth it unless you have the timing down to dair or you want to ff an airdodge to uair him, but I would just say gtfo.

I wanna hear moar about this fair wall too.

Pikabunz · Mar 30, 2010

I remember Anther telling me about walling Wario with fairs. I think the only thing that beats it is his bair.

KayLo! · Mar 30, 2010

Wrong thread, lol. I'll move it for you.

EDIT: Done. Check the thread title next time!

Pikabunz · Mar 30, 2010

What the... I'm pretty sure I clicked the Wario MU Disc. Anyways, I'll post some cg stuff later.

King~ · Mar 31, 2010

i think this is 5-5 its alot of tricking eachother into getting hit/grabbbed and alot of camping from both parties.

fair does indeed wall and i think(well i get it alot but i suspect they can just jump away but are being lazy) i think Down throw-upsmash works till like 60-70% and i mean just one down throw to upsmash.

gamesuxcard · Mar 31, 2010

can't they sdi our fairs and punish us?

KayLo! · Mar 31, 2010

Anyone can SDI out of a full fair, so...... yes. Dunno what he can punish with, though.

Inviting the Warios.

gamesuxcard · Mar 31, 2010

I think they could sdi down and clap us. ow.

King~ · Mar 31, 2010

you should be retreating fairs, anyway though and not going in. your just trying to keep him out or from gettin above you. with that though they may be able to get to ground first and grab you before you can buffer and downsmash or something idk

then again pikachus never really commited to his landings(i mean you can just QAc to the to the other side of the stage if you dont feel safe landing next to him)

Dynomite · Mar 31, 2010

We kill you really early with fresh Fsmash or Waft.

Wario will try to Dair alot being his main approach if he does approach

Wario's bike can help Wario if its on the stage. It can block thunder-shock and increases hitboxes. So its your personal preference if you choose to destroy it or keep it on the stage for the gimp. I guess if wario is lower in % its best to keep it on the stage and if he is higher, destroy it or use the extended hitbox to kill.

Wario can juggle pikachu and pikachu can juggle Wario too.

Overall: 45:55

BMX · Mar 31, 2010

Pikachu can wall Wario pretty well with fair, but Wario has options to counter that.

If you play K-9 though, you won't have to worry too much. The match should last at least one minute.

This matchup for Wario is how well he can counter Pika's options. There's no grab release(omg yes) and Pika should have a pretty difficult time killing Wario.

I'll write moar laters.

gamesuxcard · Mar 31, 2010

I thought we could grab release Wario to stuff, i'm pretty sure we can.

KayLo! · Mar 31, 2010

We can GR into a lot of stuff, just not into anything special. Aaaand iirc, we can't force an air release.

BMX · Apr 1, 2010

As long as the air release isn't forced by the Wario player themselves by pressing jump or Up, there's no grab release.

PhantomX · Apr 1, 2010

Pikachu has throws > buffered upsmashes til like 70% on us though, which is heeeella gay.

KayLo! · Apr 1, 2010

PhantomX said:
Pikachu has throws > buffered upsmashes til like 70% on us though, which is heeeella gay.

Dthrow > usmash is really guaranteed all the way up til ~70%? Sick. I thought it was likely but not a sure thing.

Multiquoting from recent Q&A thread discussion on the matchup:

Stealth Raptor said:
its a tough matchup for pikachu, but its managable if you know how to camp well. also bair and uair ***** his aerials pretty badly. dont think that makes it easy though, i would not recommend it unless you know pikachu very well.

isaccard said:
I don't think it's that bad, it's really just a waiting game, double jump your tjolts and aim for his head, putting them right onto the ground gives him more reason to jump around. approach carefully with aerials and mix up your game for when he lands (grabs pivot grabs dsmash, tilts, shading) keep track of his fart timer. If you have the lead just make him approach. If he's coming up on his bike from below just wait him out. If he trys to bait you with an aerial from that position just be safe and jump down and footstool. If he's got a good amount of space make a thunderwall and wait for his approach back to the stage. his uair will kill you EARLY, trying to challenge it isn't even worth it, just go to the closest ledge if he's trying to challenge you while you're above. this matchup is campy as all hell but we can win it, he has an advantage but it is far from unwinnable. mix it up.

oh and learn the timing of bite. if you don't feel safe approaching at its end just throw a jolt or space an fsmash.

ESAM said:
Pikachu can make a wall of fairs that wario can actually not really do anything about. So camp until you hit him with one and fair away. Yeah he gts fart, but we are more versatile IMO and can do much more things to him. Don't forget about grab release! If they are frantic to get out you can get a footstool or nair (or uair to nair). If not you can get a free jab, but i would suggest FHing a T-jolt backwards.

isaccard said:
never thought about fhing tjolts backwards out of grab releases. mmm.

ESAM said:
Only a ground release. If it is air release hit them for it.

Stealth Raptor said:
yeah the wario matchup never seemed super bad to me, just more of an annoyance, and a campfest. sadly i lost to a wario a couple weeks ago cause i didnt plank the last 30 seconds with a 40% lead, and he got an fsmash that i didnt DI and i died LEARN FROM MY MISTAKE lol

KayLo! said:
What exactly can Pika do to Wario out of an air release?

I know we can do stuff, but I always go Zelda in this MU for GR > fairs. ............Unfortunately, as fun as those are, it's really easy for Wario to time Zelda out, so I've decided to go Pika from now on. =X

All I need is a nice little list for reference's sake.

ESAM said:
Nair, Uair, Bair, Fair, Dair, footstool, and maybe U-tilt and U-smash.

isaccard said:
We can get a footstool out of grab release? doesn't this mean qac lock go?

ESAM said:
Mmhm, but air release isn't guaranteed.

isaccard said:
Yeah, still, cool stuff. Seems like an all in move to just buffer the dash>>jump for the footstool we could gamble on when behind, like a nine.

ESAM said:
You don't need the dash, just a jump in his direction.

isaccard said:
even cooler. can we pikastorm a ground released wario? if so we could probably buffer the jump no matter what and then if we see he's staying on the ground just time storm. that timing could be next to impossible though, i kinda wanna test it.

Toby. said:
You can't pikastorm a ground released wario. Ground release leaves you with a 1 frame advantage, and dair hits on frame 14. I'm not familiar with the frame data for pikachu's jump, but despite that there's no way you'd have a guaranteed dair from grab release.

If you could pikastorm out of a grab release you could just infinitely regrab him out of a ground release, since grab is more than twice as fast as dair.

You'd be better served checking what you can use jab for out of a grab release. If we jab they only have 1 frame before it hits. If you ground release them close to the edge (just too far away for the air release to be guaranteed) you can probably jab to force them off stage. If they PS the jab then the shield push would probably be enough anyway... unless power shielding removes shield push back on multi hit moves.

Naturally there's the issue of them SDI'ing the jab of course.

Just a random thought.

Oh and ESAM, I was under the impression that Wario's bair beats our fair. I tested this quite a long time ago, so it's very possible that I'm not remembering it properly though.

ESAM said:
BTW, I'm pretty sure fair hits through bair. Our hitbox is slightly disjointed while wario's isn't, even though it has higher priority.

PhantomX · Apr 1, 2010

I think so. KPrime kept hitting me with it despite my trying to jump away and/or airdodge and/or jump on him. You should ask him though, he'd know more than me.

ESAM is wrong about that btw, there is no air priority. Our bair is disjointed as well, and does beat out your fairs, as well as jolts.

I donno, KPrime and I played a set in tournament like a month ago or something, it's in the video thread now, I don't know if people have seen it yet.

I sincerely recommend you don't just wall with fairs, as that gets very predictable and very easy to punish, particularly with waft. Your fair is better served as a combo move, from what I've experienced. Bair is easy to SDI and potentially punish, your fair might be SDIable but it's much less time and we can't really punish it.

Pikabunz · Apr 1, 2010

0%: fthrow > regrab
0%-30%: fthrow > upsmash
40%-55%: dthrow > upsmash

Pika's throws are so amazing for doing damage. Every time you grab, that's like 25% damage right there.Take advantage of that!

Also, you can force an air release if you grab Wario on the edge. That's a free upsmash or nair.

gamesuxcard · Apr 1, 2010

also depending on the way your facing, if its on a platform can't we do that dumb chaingrab?

and forced air release also equals footstool, hooray!

Toby. · Apr 1, 2010

PhantomX said:
ESAM is wrong about that btw, there is no air priority. Our bair is disjointed as well, and does beat out your fairs, as well as jolts.

Oh good I'm not crazy.

[FBC] ESAM · Apr 2, 2010

Our fair is more disjointed (I think...), so it really becomes a super spacing battle. If we are retreating with a fair I don't think you can hit us with anything unless you come from under, which is unlikely since we are retreating. I have effectively walled for like 2 minutes from a wario. I got the lead at the beginning with a T-jolt. WHen he approached, I Faired. When he didn't, I T-jolted. It's fun to be able to do that.

Wario's fart is most dangerous from :50 to 1:49. I believe it is fully charged at 1:50, which is a lot less dangerous. I have actually killed a wario at like 20% before because he used a fully charged waft on me, I P-shielded it, and then thundered him for it. It was fun. So yeah...pay attention to the timer.

Bair is good for edgeguarding. If you see them bike low, drop down and bair, they can't do much against it. It'll drag them off the bike and put them in a really bad position for them to recover. Fair works too, but it is easier to DI and send them in a more favorable postion for recovery.

I think this match-up is 50:50, I'll hopefully play against more Warios at MLG. I wanna see how annoying it is when DMG tries to time me out.

Oath. · Apr 2, 2010

this is such a dumb match-up for Wario, i say its 50-50, because you have to spend all your dam time chasing Pikachu around the map, trying not to get by his thunderbolts, you can also get gimped on the bike pretty easily.. the only upper hand situation i see with wario is he can kill pika somewhat easily(if you can catch the dam thing) and his no grab release option because wario is on the ground... other than that I SEE pika haveing this match up.

The Truth! · Apr 2, 2010

If for God know whatever reason wario comes at you with the bike on the ground, its sort of easy to time a thunder so he'll get hit by the T2 (assuming no platforms and such). Its kinda amazing when it happens. Also if youre on the ground and wario tries to come at you from the air (on the side or above) utilt will almost always outrange him. Its an amazing move in this matchup.

KayLo! · Apr 6, 2010

I tried the fair thing last night, and it does work decently well. Like someone said before (forget who), you just have to make sure to retreat it and/or mix up your landings so that Wario has less of a chance of grabbing you when you hit the ground.

Keep an eye out for opportunities to grab. The fthrow/dthrow > usmash comboes help out a LOT with getting mid-percentage damage. Don't force it, though, or you'll get all kinds of punished.

Ugh, I really hate this matchup, though. It's not particularly hard (I'd still keep it at 45:55 Wario), but it's so ****ing campy and nearly always goes close to time. Pretty much a bunch of jumping around, attempted baiting, and hit & run from both characters.

At high percentages, it's pretty easy to keep from getting killed. The hardest move to avoid is the clap, imo: it has a decently large hitbox, goes through all of our aerials (or trades in his favor), and he can bring out the hitbox close to the ground. His fsmash is annoying, but with practice, you learn to see when it's coming..... be careful about trying to punish its endlag, though, because if you're even the tiniest bit late, he'll throw out another and beat you with its super armor. If you see him winding up, shield; in my experience, most Warios won't attempt ftilt kills much, but it's still something to watch out for. Fthrow/bthrow (I think it's both..... whichever ones he whips you around for) kill near the edge on stages with walk-offs, but on regular stages, DI up and you should be fine.

I seem to kill the most with fsmash and edgeguarding in this MU. Fsmash seems counterintuitive since Wario's in the air most of the time, but walk away > reverse fsmash can mess with his spacing as he tries to land/hit you. When he's off the stage at stage level or below, he's really predictable...... his up b sucks, so he's gonna use his bike, then hop off and usually go into an aerial. Just smack him off his bike. (I usually dair, bair, or nair.)

Usmash attempts always seem to get me killed in this MU. @.@ It's too laggy on block, and good Warios will avoid committing to anything we can punish within usmash/hyphen smash range. EDIT: Fsmash is laggy on block as well, but usmash has less shieldpush and lags you within range for fsmash.

I land a lot of utilts, but they rarely string into thunders because of DI on Wario's part. Meh.

Just my 2 cents on the MU from my limited experience.

PZ · Apr 6, 2010

Should I work on finding grab release combos and whats the best option cuz I love grab releasing wario's now my cpus just grab release for no specific reason lulz.

I dont know much of wario but ill give ya a paragraph at least but not yet I must play as the char to leanr and facing cpus aint gonna help me know much either but its all I got.

KayLo! · Apr 6, 2010

Eh, don't bother on the GR stuff. It's been done already.

Besides that, Pika can't force an air release on Wario (except for when you're on an edge, obviously), so chances are you won't be getting any fancy GR combos.

If you do GR him on the edge, usmash or nair work best.

PZ · Apr 6, 2010

KayLo! said:
Eh, don't bother on the GR stuff. It's been done already.

Besides that, Pika can't force an air release on Wario (except for when you're on an edge, obviously), so chances are you won't be getting any fancy GR combos.

If you do GR him on the edge, usmash or nair work best.

Ok but doesnt not pummeling wario gives automatic air grab release? or was the cpus real idiots for hitting up?

KayLo! · Apr 6, 2010

The CPU was being dumb.

PZ · Apr 6, 2010

Figures its hard to find anything yurself or learn anything when you're facing cpus so I rely on you guys for the information and these mus threads are really helpful regardless of how bad or good my opponent is.

KayLo! · Apr 13, 2010

Which stages would y'all take Wario to?

Going by the MLG list I guess.

Also: does anybody use bair in this matchup? I usually stray from it (except offstage sometimes), but the uair/fair song and dance gets kinda stale after a while.

& what about autocanceled dairs, or do his aerials beat it easy? I'm tryin to find ways to mix it up, because I get insanely bored and careless whenever I play this MU.

[FBC] ESAM · Apr 13, 2010

I like PS1 against wario...

King~ · Apr 13, 2010

i played blue rogue in a close set(this is because weve played a ton and hes been telling me stuff recently, not cause we close in skill level). i tried bair, but i mis spaced it so i got punished for it alot.

you can mix up with dair, but its much easier to punish. granted i didnt really get punished for it but it looked like/i thought i would.
also something that ive learned from last week aswell as the set, when recovering high dont just mindlessly shoot t-jolts at the stage, casue this gives them an opprotunity to jump off and get a nicely charged waft of. like you have to be even more paticular/careful about all your recovery mixups cause he can hit you out of all of them with right spacing.

stages i like: Delfino, Lylat, SV, FD, frig in some cases(some people are just too good here)

stages i ban: Yoshis, BF, brinstar, frig in other cases

lol this is just where i feel comfortable at i see

KayLo! · Apr 13, 2010

Thanks, Kyoshi! I'll look into playing around with bair and dair..... carefully, hehe.

& yeah, I've gotten punished a lot for tjolting on the way back to the stage (bad habit)...... definitely something to watch out for. It'll get you farted on real quick. Or clapped.

Toby. · Apr 14, 2010

The useful aspect of pikachu's bair is that it beats Wario's bair. So when they get sick of you fairing and decide to punish it...you know what to do.

Matchup Re-Discussion: Wario

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