Pictochat

T-block · Mar 29, 2010

PICTOCHAT

Introduction:

With the revealing of the MLG stage list, there has been some debate over the legality of Pictochat. I thought it would be best to get some facts straight about the stage, as there were only a couple of very outdated threads on the topic on these boards. I ran a quick test of four runs through the stage, and there are a few things I feel that everyone should know about this stage before we attempt to argue it. Some of the things I found in this quick experiment were surprising to me as well. I'm also going to include facts about certain transformations and the stage in general that I believe everyone should know. I realize that four runs is not a very impressive sample size, but it was enough for me to disprove some beliefs about the stage, while being sure of some new conclusions. Some conclusions may be disproven with further testing, so please take them as possibilities.

I tried to describe each transformation as best I could. If there's any confusion as to which transformation is being described, feel free to ask and I'll clarify. I don't want to spend time listing the transformations here.

There is a lot of data here, and not all of it is important to read. If you want to read the most important parts of this post, just read the parts in blue.

Observations:

ON THE STAGE IN GENERAL:

There are 27 transformations, and the game cycles through all 27 before repeating any.
[*]It usually takes just over 9 minutes to get through a cycle of 27. This means that in a standard 8 minute match there will be transformations that do not appear. If the game takes 5 minutes, there will be around 15 transformations.
The first transformation appears two seconds into the match.
[*]The time of appearance and duration of each transformation is not predictable in general. See the Timing section for more details.
[*]Transformations with hitboxes do not become "active" (you cannot be hurt by them) until they are completely drawn.
[*]Transformations with solid walls/ceilings will become "active" (you can interact with them) as soon as drawing begins; ie- they will interfere with your movement before they are completely drawn
Drawing time varies for each transformation, but is generally around one second.
Pictochat has a slightly higher ceiling than Final Destination (vertical kill moves kill ~2% later without DI) (source: Project Vertical)

ON THE TRANSFORMATIONS WITH HITBOXES:

Missiles do set knockback and generally won't kill with proper DI. Being hit by one does 25%.
[*]The drawing time on the missiles makes them avoidable, or at the very least shieldable, on reaction.
[*]It is very easy to influence the trajectory you are sent on by the missiles. Very rarely should you be hit by one into the other
If left alone, the time at which the missiles explode by themselves seems to vary from halfway across the stage to all the way across the stage.
[*]Arrows can only hit you when they spawn if you are in the air. If you are on the ground where they will spawn, they will merely push you aside.
Fire only does 1% per hit and has very weak knockback.
Arrows, Cart, Plant, Spikes all have knockback that scales with damage.
Spikes will hit you into themselves and kill you vertically if you are sent flying hard enough into them (unconfirmed)

ON VARIOUS OTHER TRANSFORMATIONS:

Diagonal Line does not allow you to grab the ledge on the left side. It is the only transformation without a hitbox that can kill you, barring some ridiculous circumstance.
The two leftmost dominos in Dominos transformation are solid (ie- you can bounce off them as a ceiling). The rest are pass-through.
Even if in free-fall animation, you can still grab onto a ladder. This makes up-b moves less punishable.
It is possible to stand "inside" the spring.
The wind on the Blowing transformation does not extend past the far end of the stage.
[*]6/27 transformations (Arrows, Cart, Fire, Missiles, Plant, Spikes) have active hitboxes.
[*]5/27 transformations (Arrows, Cart, Plant, Spikes, Diagonal Line) have the potential to kill you. Missiles is not counted due to set knockback.
[*]6/27 transformations (Arrows, Bricks, Diagonal Line, Sailboat, Singer, Whale) have temporary "walls".
[*]3/27 (Bricks, Sailboat, Whale) could leave one player untouchable, if they spawn around him.

ON THE TIMING OF CERTAIN TRANSFORMATIONS:

The clock always follows the same rotation: the minute hand moves from the 30-minute position to just past the 00-minute position. The transformation always takes approximately 10 seconds.
The carousel always makes exactly one full rotation. The transformation always takes approximately 16.2 seconds.
The plant follows a pattern of two bites before leaving its mouth open for a few seconds. It goes through this pattern three times. The transformation always takes approximately 15 seconds.
The swinging beam always starts at the centre. It makes 4.5 half-cycles before disappearing, ending on the left apex. The transformation always takes approximately 16.2 seconds.
The cart always starts at the left apex of its path and ends at the left apex. It makes either 6 or 8 half-cycles, taking either 13 seconds or 17 seconds.
The sheep always starts at the rightmost point of its path and ends at the rightmost point. It moves either 6 or 8 times, taking either 13 seconds or 17 seconds.

Timing:

Raw Data:

Times were taken whenever a transformation appeared (drawing begins) and whenever a transformation disappeared (erasing begins). The times shown for a specified drawing involve times for the blank stage prior to its appearance, followed by the times for the drawing itself. Values would be the value on the timer of a 10:00 match.

Testing was done with only a stopwatch, so there will be some error in the times. These should be accurate to within 0.5s though.

Code:

[U]RUN 1:[/U]
DRAWING            ABSENT           PRESENT
Umbrella           10:00.0-9:58.2   9:58.2-9:46.8
Sheep              9:46.8-9:39.2    9:39.2-9:22.4
Clock              9:22.4-9:12.7    9:12.7-9:02.8
Missiles           9:02.8-8:54.1    8:54.1-8:40.8
Dominos            8:40.8-8:33.9    8:33.9-8:22.6 
Swinging Beam      8:22.6-8:17.0    8:17.0-8:00.5
Cart               8:00.5-7:52.6    7:52.6-7:35.5
Spikes             7:35.5-7:28.5    7:28.5-7:16.4
Flag               7:16.4-7:07.8    7:07.8-6:53.6
Singer             6:53.6-6:47.9    6:47.9-6:34.5
Plant              6:34.5-6:27.6    6:27.6-6:12.7
Arrows             6:12.7-6:05.4    6:05.4-5:51.4
House              5:51.4-5:44.1    5:44.1-5:33.9
Whale              5:33.9-5:24.5    5:24.5-5:10.3
Two Trees          5:10.3-5:01.8    5:01.8-4:51.2
Fire               4:51.2-4:42.9    4:42.9-4:31.4
Banners            4:31.4-4:22.7    4:22.7-4:11.0
Sailboat           4:11.0-4:04.0    4:04.0-3:51.2
Bricks             3:51.2-3:45.3    3:45.3-3:30.5
Carousel           3:30.5-3:21.2    3:21.2-3:05.0
Ladders            3:05.0-2:59.3    2:59.3-2:47.1
Platforms          2:47.1-2:38.9    2:38.9-2:27.4
Blowing            2:27.4-2:19.2    2:19.2-2:08.1
Diagonal Line      2:08.1-2:01.1    2:01.1-1:46.8
Tree               1:46.8-1:40.8    1:40.8-1:28.6
Eyes               1:28.6-1:21.8    1:21.8-1:10.5
Springs            1:10.5-1:02.1    1:02.1-0:52.2



[U]RUN 2:[/U]
DRAWING            ABSENT           PRESENT
Clock              10:00.0-9:58.4   9:58.4-9:48.4
Ladders            9:48.4-9:41.8    9:41.8-9:31.1
Banners            9:31.1-9:23.1    9:23.1-9:11.0
Platforms          9:11.0-9:03.9    9:03.9-8:51.2
Swinging Beam      8:51.2-8:45.3    8:45.3-8:29.0
Whale              8:29.0-8:19.8    8:19.8-8:07.1
Flag               8:07.1-7:59.7    7:59.7-7:46.8
Bricks             7:46.8-7:37.8    7:37.8-7:23.5
Sheep              7:23.5-7:17.4    7:17.4-7:04.3
Two Trees          7:04.3-6:56.1    6:56.1-6:45.8
Plant              6:45.8-6:38.3    6:38.3-6:23.1
House              6:23.1-6:13.8    6:13.8-6:02.5
Diagonal Line      6:02.5-5:54.9    5:54.9-5:43.8
Singer             5:43.8-5:35.9    5:35.9-5:22.9
Sailboat           5:22.9-5:15.8    5:15.8-5:01.3
Missiles           5:01.3-4.52.6    4:52.6-4:38.0
Fire               4:38.0-4:32.8    4:32.8-4:20.3
Eyes               4:20.3-4:14.1    4:14.1-4:03.0
Blowing            4:03.0-3:53.6    3:53.6-3:39.6
Spikes             3:39.6-3:31.4    3:31.4-3:16.6
Carousel           3:16.6-3:08.5    3:08.5-2:52.2
Springs            2:52.2-2:43.9    2:43.9-2:29.1
Cart               2:29.1-2:20.6    2:20.6-2:07.2
Umbrella           2:07.2-1:58.9    1:58.9-1:47.1
Arrows             1:47.1-1:39.1    1:39.1-1:28.2
Dominos            1:28.2-1:19.0    1:19.0-1:02.8
Tree               1:02-8-0:57.5    0:57.5-0:44.7



[U]RUN 3:[/U]
DRAWING            ABSENT           PRESENT
Clock              10:00.0-9:57.9   9:57.9-9:48.1
Sheep              9:48.1-9:41.7    9:41.7-9:25.0
Eyes               9:25.0-9:18.0    9:18.0-9:07.1
Ladders            9:07.1-8:58.1    8:58.1-8:44.1
Umbrella           8:44.1-8:37.1    8:37.1-8:26.3
Singer             8:26.3-8:16.8    8:16.8-8:05.7
Flag               8:05.7-7:58.6    7:58.6-7:46.8
Whale              7:46.8-7:37.4    7:37.4-7:26.2
Swinging Beam      7:26.2-7:17.4    7:17.4-7:01.3
Sailboat           7:01.3-6:54.4    6:54.4-6:43.0
Springs            6:43.0-6:35.2    6:35.2-6:21.7
Fire               6:21.7-6:14.0    6:14.0-5:59.9
Spikes             5:59.9-5:52.3    5:52.3-5:41.5
Bricks             5:41.5-5:34.4    5:34.4-5:21.9
Diagonal Line      5:21.9-5:15.8    5:15.8-5:04.0
Banners            5:04.0-4:55.8    4:55.8-4:40.8
Dominos            4:40.8-4:32.0    4:32.0-4:19.7
Two Trees          4:19.7-4:13.3    4:13.3-3:58.7
Blowing            3:58.7-3:52.1    3:52.1-3:40.9
Tree               3:40.9-3:32.4    3:32.4-3:22.1
Platforms          3:22.1-3:14.0    3:14.0-3:00.1
Plant              3:00.1-2:52.3    2:52.3-2:37.2
Carousel           2:37.2-2:30.3    2:30.3-2:14.0
Cart               2:14.0-2:07.2    2:07.2-1:54.1
Arrows             1:54.1-1:45.7    1:45.7-1:35.3
Missiles           1:35.3-1:27.6    1:27.6-1:13.8
House              1:13.8-1:05.8    1:05.8-0:51.1



[U]RUN 4:[/U]
DRAWING            ABSENT           PRESENT
Eyes               10:00.0-9:58.1   9:58.1-9:46.7
Clock              9:46.7-9:37.4    9:37.4-9:27.0
Cart               9:27.0-9:18.6    9:18.6-9:01.6
Dominos            9:01.6-8:52.8    8:52.8-8:38.6
Platforms          8:38.6-8:29.8    8:29.8-8:17.7
Banners            8:17.7-8:09.9    8:09.9-7:56.3
House              7:56.3-7:47.8    7:47.8-7:36.1
Flag               7:36.1-7:29.4    7:29.4-7:14.5
Sheep              7:14.5-7:05.3    7:05.3-6:52.4
Sailboat           6:52.4-6:43.9    6:43.9-6:29.3
Whale              6:29.3-6:22.4    6:22.4-6:11.6
Blowing            6:11.6-6:04.3    6:04.3-5:48.6
Swinging Beam      5:48.6-5:40.2    5:40.2-5:24.1
Bricks             5:24.1-5:15.6    5:15.6-5:03.5
Tree               5:03.5-4:56.0    4:56.0-4:41.7
Spikes             4:41.7-4:34.7    4:34.7-4:20.7
Umbrella           4:20.7-4:11.8    4:11.8-4:00.7
Two Trees          4:00.7-3:54.5    3:54.5-3:41.3
Ladders            3:41.3-3:32.7    3:32.7-3:21.6
Missiles           3:21.6-3:13.0    3:13.0-3:02.3
Carousel           3:02.3-2:55.4    2:55.4-2:39.2
Arrows             2:39.2-2:31.7    2:31.7-2:17.4
Plant              2:17.4-2:09.5    2:09.5-1:54.4
Diagonal Line      1:54.4-1:45.9    1:45.9-1:35.0
Singer             1:35.0-1:27.3    1:27.3-1:13.8
Springs            1:13.8-1:07.7    1:07.7-0:54.8
Fire               0:54.8-0:46.9    0:46.9-0:32.9

Code:

This shows the blank time before a transformation,
the blank time after a transformation,
and the duration of the transformation over the four runs.

Arrows[INDENT]Pre- 7.3, 8.0, 8.4, 7.5
Post- 7.3, 9.2, 7.7, 7.9
Duration- 14.0, 10.9, 10.4, 14.3; MIN 10.4, MAX 14.3[/INDENT]

Banners[INDENT]Pre- 8.7, 8.0, 8.2, 7.8
Post- 7.0, 8.0, 8.8, 8.5
Duration- 11.7, 10.7, 15.0, 13.6; MIN 10.7, MAX 15.0[/INDENT]

Blowing[INDENT]Pre- 8.2, 9.4, 6.6, 7.3
Post- 7.0, 8.2, 8.5, 8.4
Duration- 11.1, 14.0, 11.2, 15.7; MIN 11.1, MAX 15.7[/INDENT]

Bricks[INDENT]Pre- 5.9, 9.0, 7.1, 8.5
Post- 9.3, 6.1, 6.1, 7.5
Duration- 14.8, 14.3, 12.5, 12.1; MIN 12.1, MAX 14.8[/INDENT]

Cart[INDENT]Pre- 7.9, 8.5, 6.8, 8.4
Post-  7.0, 8.3, 8.4, 8.8
Duration- 17.1, 13.4, 13.1, 17.0; MIN 13.1, MAX 17.1[/INDENT]

Carousel[INDENT]Pre- 9.3, 8.1, 6.9, 6.9
Post- 5.7, 8.4, 6.8, 7.5
Duration- 16.2, 16.3, 16.3, 16.2; MIN 16.2, MAX 16.3[/INDENT]

Clock[INDENT]Pre- 9.7, (1.6), (2.1), 9.3 
Post-  8.7, 6.6, 6.4, 8.4
Duration- 9.9, 10.0, 9.8, 10.4; MIN 9.8, MAX 10.4[/INDENT]

Diagonal Line[INDENT]Pre- 7.0, 7.6, 9.1, 8.5
Post- 6.0, 7.9, 8.2, 7.7
Duration- 14.3, 11.1, 11.8, 10.9; MIN 10.9, MAX 14.3[/INDENT]

Dominos[INDENT]Pre- 6.9, 9.2, 8.8, 8.8
Post- 5.6, 5.3, 6.7, 8.8
Duration- 11.3, 16.2, 12.3, 14.2; MIN 11.3, MAX 16.2[/INDENT]

Eyes[INDENT]Pre- 6.8, 6.2, 7.0, (1.9)
Post- 8.4, 9.4, 9.0, 9.3
Duration- 11.3, 11.1, 10.9, 11.4; MIN 10.9, MAX 11.4[/INDENT]

Fire[INDENT]Pre- 8.3, 5.2, 7.7, 7.9
Post- 8.7, 6.2, 7.6
Duration- 11.5, 12.5. 14.1, 14.0; MIN 11.5, MAX 14.1[/INDENT]

Flag[INDENT]Pre- 8.6, 7.4, 7.1, 6.7
Post- 5.7, 9.0, 9.4, 9.2
Duration- 14.2, 12.9, 11.8, 14.9; MIN 11.8, MAX 14.9[/INDENT]

House[INDENT]Pre- 7.3, 9.3, 8.0, 8.5
Post- 9.4, 7.6, 6.7
Duration- 10.2, 11.3, 14.7, 11.7; MIN 10.2, MAX 14.7[/INDENT]

Ladders[INDENT]Pre- 5.7, 6.6, 9.0, 8.6
Post- 8.2, 8.0, 7.0, 8.6
Duration- 12.2, 10.7, 14.0, 11.1; MIN 10.7, MAX 14.0[/INDENT]

Missiles[INDENT]Pre- 8.7, 8.7, 7.7, 8.6
Post- 6.9, 5.2, 8.0, 6.9
Duration- 13.3, 14.6, 13.8, 10.7; MIN 10.7, MAX 14.6[/INDENT]

Plant[INDENT]Pre- 6.9, 7.5, 7.8, 7.9
Post- 7.3, 9.3, 6.9, 8.5
Duration- 14.9, 15.2, 15.1, 15.1; MIN 14.9, MAX 15.2[/INDENT]

Platforms[INDENT]Pre- 8.2, 7.1, 8.1, 8.8
Post- 8.2, 5.9, 7.8, 7.8
Duration- 11.5, 12.7, 13.9, 12.1; MIN 11.5, MAX 13.9[/INDENT]

Sailboat[INDENT]Pre- 7.0, 7.1, 6.9, 8.5
Post- 5.9, 8.7, 7.8, 6.9
Duration- 12.8, 14.5, 11.4, 14.6; MIN 11.4, MAX 14.6[/INDENT]

Sheep[INDENT]Pre- 7.6, 6.1, 6.4, 9.2 
Post- 9.7, 8.2, 7.0, 8.5
Duration- 16.8, 13.1, 16.7, 12.9; MIN 12.9, MAX 16.8[/INDENT]

Singer[INDENT]Pre- 5.7, 7.9, 9.5, 7.7 
Post- 6.9, 7.1, 7.1, 6.1
Duration- 13.4, 13.0, 11.1, 13.5; MIN 11.1, MAX 13.5[/INDENT]

Spikes[INDENT]Pre- 7.0, 8.2, 7.6, 7.0
Post- 8.6, 8.1, 7.1, 8.9
Duration- 12.1, 14.8, 10.8, 14.0; MIN 10.8, MAX 14.8[/INDENT]

Springs[INDENT]Pre- 8.4, 8.3, 7.8, 6.1
Post- 8.5, 7.7, 7.9
Duration- 9.9, 14.8, 13.5, 12.9; MIN 9.9, MAX 14.8[/INDENT]

Swinging Beam[INDENT]Pre- 5.6, 5.9, 8.8, 8.4
Post-  7.9, 9.2, 6.9, 8.5
Duration- 16.5, 16.3, 16.1, 16.1; MIN 16.1, MAX 16.5[/INDENT]

Tree[INDENT]Pre- 6.0, 5.3, 8.5, 7.5
Post- 6.8, 8.1, 7.9
Duration- 12.2, 12.8, 10.3, 14.3; MIN 10.3, MAX 14.3[/INDENT]

Two Trees[INDENT]Pre- 8.5, 8.2, 6.4, 6.2
Post- 8.3, 7.5, 6.6, 8.6
Duration- 10.6, 10.3, 14.6, 13.2; MIN 10.3, MAX 14.6[/INDENT]

Umbrella[INDENT]Pre- (1.8), 8.3, 7.0, 8.9
Post- 7.6, 8.0, 9.5, 6.2
Duration- 11.4, 11.8, 10.8, 11.1; MIN 10.8, MAX 11.8[/INDENT]

Whale[INDENT]Pre- 9.4, 9.2, 9.4, 6.9
Post- 8.5, 7.4, 8.8, 7.3
Duration- 14.2, 12.7, 11.2, 10.8; MIN 10.8, MAX 14.2[/INDENT]

WHAT THIS MEANS:

For many transformations, the duration appears to be random, differing by as much as five seconds.
Some transformations seem to have consistent durations; namely, Carousel, Clock, Plant, Swinging Beam, and possibly Eyes.
Some transformations seem to have quantized durations; namely, Cart, Sheep.
- The duration of these transformations depends on how many times the animation goes back and forth (Cart moving across the track, or Sheep moving from left to right).
- Some transformations with consistent duration may actually be quantized instead of consistent - It's very possible that Plant and Swinging Beam could vary by going through more animations than was seen in these four runs.
The blank time before any of the transformations does not stay the same.
The blank time after any of the transformations does not stay the same.
- One possibility is that each transformation has a set time before that is blank, and a set time after that is blank. It's unlikely, but if someone would like to follow that idea, go ahead.

In other words, duration and appearance of transformations is not 100% predictable, as some have been claiming. The variance in both duration and appearance can be several seconds - a substantial window that makes predicting Pictochat impractical.

~T

T-block · Mar 29, 2010

So that's all the information I have on Pictochat.

The fact that the timing of Pictochat is essentially random does not change my opinion of the stage: that it is a very fair stage definitely fit for competitive play. Yes, the order of the drawings is random, and appearance times cannot be predicted, but that does not stop the player from taking the stage into account when making decisions, and making a smart choice. I claim that even without clock watching, a smart player who is always thinking about the stage will very rarely get screwed over by the stage. Yoshi's Island (Brawl) probably has as much potential to change the outcome of a match as Pictochat does.

sunshade · Mar 29, 2010

I read that the new drawings spawn every 13 seconds last for 13 seconds than disappear. Your data however seems to show this as false, if the 13 second rule is indeed false I find that very surprising.

T-block · Mar 29, 2010

You can easily verify it yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3QkJb8J_Qs#t=2m49s

sunshade · Mar 29, 2010

T-block said:
You can easily verify it yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3QkJb8J_Qs#t=2m49s

your right, it is amazing how long false information can cycle around without anyone checking it.

+2 respect.

solecalibur · Mar 29, 2010

What does the Diagonal Line do for tether?
and good write about still reading the rest

edit - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AwlV3XUBHg
Just found this replay nothing special

fkacyan · Mar 30, 2010

In other words, duration and appearance of transformations is not 100% predictable, as some have been claiming (including myself). The variance in both duration and appearance can be several seconds - a substantial window that makes predicting Pictochat impractical.

...

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. It's not predictable. Oh man, this is too funny to me for some reason.

Thanks, T-block. This information is quite helpful.

T-block · Mar 30, 2010

Trust me, I was quite upset when I found this lol

I guess I should apologize for claiming it was, Thio. This doesn't change my views on the stage by much though =P

fkacyan · Mar 30, 2010

T-block said:
Trust me, I was quite upset when I found this lol

I guess I should apologize for claiming it was, Thio. This doesn't change my views on the stage by much though =P

Doesn't change mine either! Just means that the basic strategem of "This is no longer a game to see who can KO the best, but who can rack up percent the best and then keep people in the right and upper parts of the stage" is even more effective now! After all, any DI could potentially be unsafe!

Strangely, I think this makes Samus viable on this stage, roflmao.

Raziek · Mar 30, 2010

Approved. Great to see some extensive testing done on it. Pictochat should stay a legal counter-pick, in my humble opinion.

Katakiri · Mar 30, 2010

Raziek said:
Approved. Great to see some extensive testing done on it. Pictochat should stay a legal counter-pick, in my humble opinion.

^This

I don't particularly like this stage, but I've never seen anything wrong with it. It's no more dangerous than Halberd.

AvaricePanda · Mar 30, 2010

Out of all the controversial stages MLG has on it's list, this is the one I'm easily the most fine with. It's funny that you mentioned Yoshi's Island Brawl could have as much impact on a match that Pictochat does, because last tournament I went to, Picto was legal (it was actually thought to have been legal, but we're Midwest so we CPd it anyway) and I played two doubles tournament matches on it without much interference. Then I won a singles friendly I shouldn't have on Yoshi's Island because I landed on the ghost right before dying from the pit, then managed to get in a gimp.

Not that any of that has an affect on either stage's validity, I just think it's funny.

Also, I agree with Raziek and BlazingKatakiri.

dniMretsaM · Mar 30, 2010

Really great to know; thanks T-block. I read the "13 second" thing myself. It's pretty hard to believe no one ever checked it out. Even though the hazards are random, I definitely think it should be a legit CP.

UberMario · Mar 30, 2010

The only reasons that I'd say keep Pictochat banned are the slope which can literally break up the battle for several seconds, the tower of blocks, and the guy that blows air. Otherwise the fact that nearly all of the damaging props have limited knockback merits at least a regional counter-pick I suppose.

Scabe · Mar 30, 2010

I had no idea about Missiles having set knockback, I think I would try and DI towards the stage when I get hit by them, and then I end up getting hit by the other Missile

What are the arrows of the stage? I can't seem to remember or picture them.

sunshade · Mar 30, 2010

Scabe said:
I had no idea about Missiles having set knockback, I think I would try and DI towards the stage when I get hit by them, and then I end up getting hit by the other Missile

What are the arrows of the stage? I can't seem to remember or picture them.

He means the spikes that pop out of the ground.

DTP · Mar 30, 2010

Scabe said:
What are the arrows of the stage? I can't seem to remember or picture them.

I think it's the 4-5 arrow things that stick up vertically from the ground and create like a billion walls in one transformation. It pretty much stops the match for a bit every time it appears.
I don't like the arrows >:[

EDIT: Ninjaaaaa'd

T-block · Mar 31, 2010

solecalibur said:
What does the Diagonal Line do for tether?
and good write about still reading the rest

edit - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AwlV3XUBHg
Just found this replay nothing special

The diagonal line takes away the ledge completely. Tethers won't have anything to latch onto. The only way to recover on that side of the transformation is to land on the line.

That's an interesting vid though... I'll look into it.

UberMario said:
The only reasons that I'd say keep Pictochat banned are the slope which can literally break up the battle for several seconds, the tower of blocks, and the guy that blows air. Otherwise the fact that nearly all of the damaging props have limited knockback merits at least a regional counter-pick I suppose.

There's nothing bannable about breaking up the battle (just look at Pokemon Stadium 1), and a lot of the time the transformations you listed don't even do that.

Scabe said:
I had no idea about Missiles having set knockback, I think I would try and DI towards the stage when I get hit by them, and then I end up getting hit by the other Missile

What are the arrows of the stage? I can't seem to remember or picture them.

Yeah, "Arrows" are the spikes that come out from the ground. I'd call them Spikes, but there's already a Spikes transformation.

Thiocyanide said:
Doesn't change mine either! Just means that the basic strategem of "This is no longer a game to see who can KO the best, but who can rack up percent the best and then keep people in the right and upper parts of the stage" is even more effective now! After all, any DI could potentially be unsafe!

Strangely, I think this makes Samus viable on this stage, roflmao.

Err....lol. If you think relying on the stage to KO your opponent is a better way to get kills than doing the killing yourself, you must not understand this stage very well. You seem to be implying that the strategy you referenced is a dominant, broken strategy on Pictochat. Following that strategy, you would be relying on four transformations to kill (Arrows, Plant, Spikes, Cart). I guess we can count Missiles too, since your opponent getting hit by one does give you a significant advantage, even though it doesn't kill. Five transformations. Out of 27. And in a 5-minute match, only 15 transformations are going to show up. You're much better off going for the KO yourself.

On a side note, even if that were what Pictochat came down to, "who can rack up percent the best and then keep people in the right and upper parts of the stage" still requires a lot of skill. If your opponent is doing that to you, forcing you to potentially unsafe zones, and you get hit by a hazard, he was already outplaying you in the first place. It's just another way of killing you =\

I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing anymore...

fkacyan · Mar 31, 2010

Err....lol. If you think relying on the stage to KO your opponent is a better way to get kills than doing the killing yourself, you must not understand this stage very well. You seem to be implying that the strategy you referenced is a dominant, broken strategy on Pictochat. Following that strategy, you would be relying on four transformations to kill (Arrows, Plant, Spikes, Cart). I guess we can count Missiles too, since your opponent getting hit by one does give you a significant advantage, even though it doesn't kill. Five transformations. Out of 27. And in a 5-minute match, only 15 transformations are going to show up. You're much better off going for the KO yourself.

On a side note, even if that were what Pictochat came down to, "who can rack up percent the best and then keep people in the right and upper parts of the stage" still requires a lot of skill. If your opponent is doing that to you, forcing you to potentially unsafe zones, and you get hit by a hazard, he was already outplaying you in the first place. It's just another way of killing you =\

I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing anymore...

K, I'll explain my argument as best I can without delving too much into my general theory about the game overall.

What I mean by "using the stage to kill" is simple. Never use a kill move and maintain percent advantage, and use your normally safe, non-kill moves to hit them into kill hazards should they appear and gain the kill in that manner. Thus, the stage becomes "who can get to the bottom left and camp better" instead of "who is the better player."

"BUT CYANIDE," you say, "stage control shows who is the better player!" Well, this is a reasonable argument, and would be true except for a few things:

- Approaching is almost universally unsafe; shieldgrabbing is stupidly good, and camping from across the stage when hazards can spawn on you or protect the other person isn't a good option. In addition, jumping is also bad, because you have to land, which is the only action that is gauranteed to end in a possible punish, with the exception of going to the ledge.
- Who starts in the safe position first is random; the other person must then approach them
- Thus, the person who starts across the stage is, on account of luck, already at a disadvantage!

And as for not relying on four transformations to kill? You have a 5/27 chance of seeing them (Assumed; I'd actually like to see if there are set numbers of particular xformations you see in time periods, etc), and only 15 will happen in a full match. So, on average, you'll see two or three. Two or three chances to KO without actually having to use a kill move. :|

I can see why people want this as a CP. Falco in particular makes excellent use of this stage because his lasers shut down approaches and he can use the safe zone to great effect. But I honestly believe that Pictochat changes the game from "Rack up % and KO" to "King-of-the-hill who can stay safe the most and get lucky when they aren't." I'm not sure that's the game I want to play or advertise to the gaming community." But eh, maybe we'll get lucky.

Back to GEE GEE GEE GEE

Raziek · Mar 31, 2010

"King-of-the-hill who can stay safe the most and get lucky when they aren't."

I think you could argue this for a lot of stages, couldn't you? Not to the point where the stage gets a kill for you OCCASIONALLY, but Brawl itself pretty much applies this principle through the nature of the game...

I mean, on stages like FD even, it's who can play King of the Hill in the center of the stage, or in a camping zone of their choosing, and it comes down to whoever is "lucky" enough to get a good read, or a trip, or just a lucky kill.

Luck can't be removed effectively at all, since a majority of the game depends on getting lucky guesses (reads), and then there's tripping!

I don't think luck is really a reason to ban a stage, unless is intrudes especially. Like T-Block has said, 5/27 transformations is not intrusive enough by MY criteria, but we both know everything is subjective anyway.

I consider intrusive luck to be things like.... 75m, Mario Bros, all the stage we typically have banned. Though, there are stages we have banned that I don't believe should be banned.

Mic_128 · Mar 31, 2010

Phanna posted this ages ago, thought it'd come in handy.

You can click any of the pictures for the larger version.

UberMario · Mar 31, 2010

What was the first image? It's the only one coming up blank for me.

Scabe · Mar 31, 2010

Does this stage give any advantages/disadvantages to any characters?

Mic_128 · Mar 31, 2010

UberMario said:
What was the first image? It's the only one coming up blank for me.

The one with the

__..............__
W________W

form. (ignore the dots)

fkacyan · Mar 31, 2010

Scabe said:
Does this stage give any advantages/disadvantages to any characters?

I'd imagine this is probably one of Falco's favorite CPs.

sunshade · Mar 31, 2010

Scabe said:
Does this stage give any advantages/disadvantages to any characters?

Pictochat is Final destination with the occasional hazard throw in. Ice climbers, Falco, and Diddy kong play very well here. Diddy Kong especially enjoys Pictochat due to the transformations often breaking up combat and allowing him to reset the situation and regain control of both his bananas. Pictochat also provides Diddy with hazards capable of killing his opponents to cover up his lousy kill potential.

essentially if the character plays well on neutrals they will play well on pictochat.

Miamisportsfan45 · Mar 31, 2010

Very nice research! Nicely done. This will be useful for me.

Pictochat is a counterpick, right?

Raziek · Mar 31, 2010

It is in many rulesets, as it should be. This includes the current MLG Orlando ruleset, which is a large part of why this stage is being discussed, I'd imagine.

Miamisportsfan45 · Mar 31, 2010

I usually only play neutrals so I 've got no idea personally. But out of curiousity, is there a "tiers list" for stages? Like... As in a list of neutrals, counterpicks, the counterpick system, so on? Things like that...

UberMario · Mar 31, 2010

Miamisportsfan45 said:
I usually only play neutrals so I 've got no idea personally. But out of curiousity, is there a "tiers list" for stages? Like... As in a list of neutrals, counterpicks, the counterpick system, so on? Things like that...

Too many variables, some characters shine where others are terrible, and the combinations of stage+character1+character2 kind of make it complex to give it a single tier list.

Miamisportsfan45 · Mar 31, 2010

UberMario said:
Too many variables, some characters shine where others are terrible, and the combinations of stage+character1+character2 kind of make it complex to give it a single tier list.

There's a lot of matchups for characters, too. Yet, we still have tiers lists. So... Why would there not be a clear tiers list for stages?

Raziek · Mar 31, 2010

What would we rank them on.... fairness?

That's incredibly subjective and would require examining stages based on the consistency of results they provide. This means we have to take into account characters, players, the players improvement over a period of time.... it just isn't remotely feasible.

sunshade · Mar 31, 2010

Miamisportsfan is asking for the start/counter/banned stage list not a tier list he is simply wording it poorly.

Starter

Yoshi's Island [Brawl] (37-0-0)
Battlefield (47-0-1)
Smashville (24-0-1)
Final Destination (26-2-1)

Starter/Counter

Lylat Cruise (16-9-0)
Halberd (18-16-0)
Pokémon Stadium 1 (16-14-2)
Castle Siege (5-9-0)

Counter

Delfino Plaza (6-20-0)
Brinstar (1-20-0)
Frigate Orpheon (1-29-0)
Rainbow Cruise (0-30-1)
Jungle Japes (0-14-1)
Pirate Ship (0-15-3)
PictoChat (0-25-9)
Pokémon Stadium 2 (0-24-11)

Counter/Banned

Norfair (0-16-10)
Luigi's Mansion (0-11-8)
Distant Planet (0-15-11)
Green Greens (0-6-9)
Yoshi's Island [Melee] (0-10-19)
Port Town Aero Dive (0-12-23)

Banned

Hanenbow (0-5-16)
Mario Circuit (0-5-19)
Onett (0-3-14)
Corneria (0-3-15)
Big Blue (0-3-17)
75m (2-2-24)
Green Hill Zone (0-3-19)
New Pork City (2-1-20)
Rumble Falls (0-3-21)
Shadow Moses Island (1-1-20)
Summit (0-2-20)
Mario Bros. (2-0-22)
Flat Zone 2 (1-1-22)
Bridge of Eldin (0-2-25)
WarioWare Inc. (0-2-33)
Spear Pillar (1-0-31)
Skyworld (0-0-16)
Temple (0-0-16)
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1 (0-0-19)
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2 (0-0-21)

Miamisportsfan45 · Mar 31, 2010

What exactly is with the Starter - Starter/Counter - Counter - Counter/Banned - Banned? Where do these fall into this with how the countersystem works? I usually only play neutrals so I'm a complete scrub with the counterpicks unless the Counterpick stages are randomly chosen (as such as they are on Gamebattles).

UberMario · Mar 31, 2010

Banned stages give an extreme advantage to at least one character in the form of an unbreakable infinite or shear weirdness (too much going on in 75m, Corneria fin infinites, Spear Pillar having lots of random effects that mess with the player, no grabbable sides on Summit, pole camping at Green Hill Zone, never understood Hanenbow's ban though)

Starter/Counter Pick stages are nearly as neutral as the regular ones, but have some problems that affect gameplay (Pokemon Stadium transformations (most notably the windmill), Tilting away or toward a falling player at Lylat Cruise, Halberd's bombs, arm, and laser, and Castle Seige's walkoffable mode) but are genearly fair.

Counters have somewhat neutral designs, but either have obstacles that are random and break gameplay into a dodgefest or are unreasonably (but not overwhelmingly) advantageous to specific characters such as DeDeDe at Delfino Plaza's walkoffable modes or Falco's range and maneuverability at Jungle Japes.

Counter/Banned stages have several places to tech off slopes/walls/ceilings to stall deaths to high amounts or are extremely campy/chaingrab off-screen happy, Port Town also has OHKO cars when you're above 50%.

Miamisportsfan45 · Mar 31, 2010

UberMario said:
never understood Hanenbow's ban though)

...because it's the most annoying and hated stage in the game? xD

Kitamerby · Mar 31, 2010

Hanenbow is banned for circle camping, as is Distant Planet. <<

Mic_128 · Mar 31, 2010

Distant planet has other things which people dislike "wah walkoff! wah rain! wah bulborb that you have to fail horribly to be eaten by!"

Raziek · Apr 1, 2010

I'm annoyed that circle camping is pretty much what has Distant Planet removed.

I love that stage. As such, it is legal at my tournaments, because nobody plays MK around here. (THAT, is miraculous in and of itself.)

T-block · Apr 1, 2010

Thiocyanide said:
K, I'll explain my argument as best I can without delving too much into my general theory about the game overall.

What I mean by "using the stage to kill" is simple. Never use a kill move and maintain percent advantage, and use your normally safe, non-kill moves to hit them into kill hazards should they appear and gain the kill in that manner. Thus, the stage becomes "who can get to the bottom left and camp better" instead of "who is the better player."

"BUT CYANIDE," you say, "stage control shows who is the better player!" Well, this is a reasonable argument, and would be true except for a few things:

- Approaching is almost universally unsafe; shieldgrabbing is stupidly good, and camping from across the stage when hazards can spawn on you or protect the other person isn't a good option. In addition, jumping is also bad, because you have to land, which is the only action that is gauranteed to end in a possible punish, with the exception of going to the ledge.
- Who starts in the safe position first is random; the other person must then approach them
- Thus, the person who starts across the stage is, on account of luck, already at a disadvantage!

And as for not relying on four transformations to kill? You have a 5/27 chance of seeing them (Assumed; I'd actually like to see if there are set numbers of particular xformations you see in time periods, etc), and only 15 will happen in a full match. So, on average, you'll see two or three. Two or three chances to KO without actually having to use a kill move. :|

I can see why people want this as a CP. Falco in particular makes excellent use of this stage because his lasers shut down approaches and he can use the safe zone to great effect. But I honestly believe that Pictochat changes the game from "Rack up % and KO" to "King-of-the-hill who can stay safe the most and get lucky when they aren't." I'm not sure that's the game I want to play or advertise to the gaming community." But eh, maybe we'll get lucky.

Back to GEE GEE GEE GEE

That's a lot of theorycrafting you've got going there... do actually have experience to back any of that up? I'd love to see vids of what you're describing, because as far as I can tell, what you've said applies to other stages as well. For Yoshi's Island (Brawl), being under the platform makes it very hard to approach you, and makes approaching often unsafe. How does this point specifically go against Pictochat? And you can't honestly be claiming the starting positions would have any significant outcome on the match, are you? I'm sure I could think of other stages where the starting position changes - but it's Brawl... characters tend to move.

Now, I realize your main point was that approaching is unsafe, AND not approaching is unsafe because hazards might spawn on you. I made this thread to disprove claims like that. Arrows, Cart, Fire, Missiles, Plant, Spikes are the 6 transformations with active hitboxes that the camper would be waiting for. Even if the camper were forcing you to stay on the right side, Spikes, Plant, Cart will never hit you on spawn. Arrows won't hit you unless you're full jumping around for some reason, and even then, it's not hard to learn the location of the arrows and stay away from their tips. If Fire hits you, you'll take like...5%? That's hardly significant, and definitely not worth basing a camping strategy around. Missiles are probably the most dangerous, but I'd like to bring up that they are shieldable on reaction and they don't kill. If they are camping the left and forcing you to stay on the right, there's no way they apply enough pressure to force you to fail at shielding. Seriously, stand on the right side where the missile spawns, and try to shield when it appears. You might be surprised how much time there is to shield it.

Also, "So, on average, you'll see two or three. Two or three chances to KO without actually having to use a kill move." is true. But how deadly are those chances? Not only do you have to have them at KO percents when the hazard spawns, but you have to be applying enough pressure to force them into the hazard when it appears.

Mic_128 said:
Phanna posted this ages ago, thought it'd come in handy.

(...images...)

You can click any of the pictures for the larger version.

Thanks mic... I'd like to point out though that there are only 26 pictures there. The "Eyes" transformation is missing.

Scabe said:
Does this stage give any advantages/disadvantages to any characters?

Yeah, Diddy and Falco tend to like Pictochat. Let's not forget POKEMON TRAINERRRRR. It's my favourite stage for PT.

Raziek said:
I'm annoyed that circle camping is pretty much what has Distant Planet removed. I love that stage. As such, it is legal at my tournaments, because nobody plays MK around here. (THAT, is miraculous in and of itself.)

Yeah it's a shame... I'm not even convinced that the circle is that broken (it's not a fully solid circle, and there are items that spawn on the stage that can help), but admittedly I don't have a lot of experience on the stage, so I won't make any claims.

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