Link's Problematic Move Discussion: Diddy's Bananas

#HBC | Red Ryu · May 10, 2010

Link's Problematic Move Discussion

Say you ever have a move that causes you problems, no matter how hard you try that one move seems to be giving you problems? You look for options but there is no where to turn for help. If only there was a thread that could help people with finding solutions to these problems. Like a discussion forum for many people to talk about the problem, one where Link's could find answers, shame there is no thread like...wait...

Got a move that is causing you problems, well this is the thread for those kinds of problems.

Here's the lowdown.
1. Brainstorm and think outside of the box, thinking like this can lead into some very good solutions.
2. Stay on topic, we don't want to wander off topic to the point where we forget what we were talking about.
3. Be respectful.
4. You can request a move to be reviewed, but don't request repeatedly over a short time span.

What moves are planned to be reviewed:
Falco's lasers
Wolf's Lasers
Getting grabbed e.g. by IC's, Falco, DDD etc
Diddy's Bananas

What has been reviewed:

Metaknight's Tornado

Summary:
A bomb is the easiest and msot effective way to shut down the tornado. If you don't have a bomb in hand or room to retreat and bombpull, your best option is the shield. N-Air will beat it from above.

Advice from Smash Boards members:

Scabe said:
Usually trying to run in and grab won't work since it's too slow.

Watch to see their tornado pattern and see what they do after the move ends.

Some MK's will Tornado and land behind preventing shield grabs, here you can jump out of shield and do a back air, it probably won't hit but it covers your behind and you can pull out a bomb on the second jump.

Nair right above tornado will beat it out. Sometimes Fsmash will beat it out in the opening frames of the move.

But yeah if you find that you can't punish the ending of tornado the best option would be to pull out a bomb.

Huggles828 said:
A lot of the times MK will pull away, hoping for you to chase him to try to punish (they do this with FSmash too). DON'T TAKE THE BAIT. If you don't have the time to get in an attack, you're better off just shielding through the whole attack, then running away and pulling a bomb once you have a chance to breathe.

MES! said:
MTornados are much weaker in priority at the very start: Zair can stop them from the weak top and bottom for a split second. If you're close dash attack at the beginning is better than shielding. Bomb tricks work of course.

Legan said:
You guys pretty much got it right. Bombs are actually the best way to deal with it, there really is no sure proof way to punish it from the ground.

A trick I use with nado spammy mks are empty shorthops, which is just shorthop fast fall once or twice randomly in place and this will most likely bait a tornado because most mk's know that link has really few options in the air vs him.

Your objective after you've power shielded the tornado is to retreat and bomb pull. if you dont have enough time to throw the bomb or the right angle(Meaning the position you're in wont allow you to actually hit the nado with the bomb, dont just throw it out) then you retreat to the ledge and wait it out.

The key is to not waste any movement, just do exactly what you need to do to not get hit while keeping a bomb in hand.

Marth's Dancing Blade

Summary:

Advice from Smash Boards members:

Thunder Of Zeus said:
It comes out quickly. If you leave yourself at all vulnerable, whether from a whiffed attack, a close roll, or landing lag, expect to get hit with Dancing Blade. This is Marth's biggest punishing tool. DB1 (the first hit of dancing blade) to grab is a decent mixup that can be easily abused. Marth has the option of DB down, DB up, or DB nuetral which can make predicting how you should DI very difficult.
You have to be very defensive. Since Marth can use Dancing Blade out of his dash and doesn't really have to worry about getting punished if he misses with it, you just need to be careful. Approach slowly with lots of SH Z-Airs. Don't roll. Just don't. Keep a safe distance, because the range of DB is not big.

MES! said:
If you're close and on the ground, DIing down and holding shield is probably your best option.

Scabe said:
Frame data for Dancing Blade

Forward b 1
Hit: 4-7
End: 30
(15) >>
Shield Stun: 1
~Shield Hit Lag: 0
ADVANTAGE: -25
Tipper Shield Stun: 1
~Shield Hit Lag: 0
ADVANTAGE: -25
Regular Stun: 21
~Hit Lag: 0
ADVANTAGE: -5
Regular Tipper Stun: 22
~Hit Lag: 0
ADVANTAGE: -4

Forward b 2:
Hit: 21-25
End: 55
(28) >>

Forward b 3:
33-37
End: 72
(39)>>

Forward b 4:
49-54
End: 92

---------------

(28)>>
Down b 3
Hit: 34-36
End: 72
(39)>>

Down b 4
Hit: 52 – 78
End: 103

---------------

(15) >>
Up b 2
Hit: 22-26
End: 53
(28)>>

Up b 3
Hit: 33-37
End: 71
(43)>>

Up b 4
Hit: 54-59
End: 92

PK-ow! said:
The best time to escape DB is on DB2, where sometimes DB2-blue will provide insufficient stun to link, and sometimes DB2-red will stab under a character knocked up by DB1. Inexperienced Marfs, or Marfs abusing DB, will likely open themselves up to this, and you've got to expect it to capitalize.

Other than that, shield -> cross roll. Try to confirm a DB3 and act before it (DB has 0 shield lag). It's the reason why DB is supposedly bad outside punishment. You'll be in frame disadvantage if player is fast because of Link's slow roll, but this game is not free for Marth. (If you roll on just DB1, Marth will cut open your *** and install a dining set in it.)

Don't overestimate the hitbox size. I really don't see how this is a problematic move. It's a tool Marth uses when you screw up, and if he doesn't telegraph with step-in, way faster than reaction. Tip is don't screw up. Don't random spot dodge. Except to bait DB.

Current discussion:

Scabe · May 10, 2010

For those MK's that approach with tornado and then retreat, you have time to pull out a bomb.

Usually trying to run in and grab won't work since it's too slow.

Angling your shield up when you get hit by tornado.

Watch to see their tornado pattern and see what they do after the move ends. Do they do tornado again straight after as you try and punish them? Do they spot dodge?

Some MK's will Tornado and land behind preventing shield grabs, here you can jump out of shield and do a back air, it probably won't hit but it covers your behind and you can pull out a bomb on the second jump.

Nair right above tornado will beat it out. Sometimes Fsmash will beat it out in the opening frames of the move.

But yeah if you find that you can't punish the ending of tornado the best option would be to pull out a bomb.

Also, someone test out if Up B beats out tornado.

SharkAttack · May 11, 2010

I vs my friend in some friendlies at my house last night. I get owned against his Metaknight and I've been struggling a bit against the Tornado. I don't get enough bombs out as I should. Are bombs always the best line of defense for tornado? I have pulled off an Up B once or twice; but I could never get it off consistantly. Then again I don't have the skill level of talented Link's, so maybe Up B is a good option.

My best guess as of right now is to:

Have a bomb on hand. The delimma I have however is when to throw it or to even throw it at all. If I throw and miss then I have to either shield or count on a disjointed hitbox of Links sword. Dash attacking at Metaknight and getting in a hit has worked for me somewhat well; but I'm not sure if my friend was going to Nado or not or what move he had planned next. I think having a bomb is the first bet and then shielding the 2nd unless you know for sure an attack will hit before the Nado comes at Link or to cancel it.

Is it best to deal with Nado before the attack or after? Bombs and a few of Link's moves can cancel it out before; but does Link have better options after the Tornado in the event he shields the whole attack? I know it depends on where Metaknight is after it is finished; but is it easier to deal with Metaknight after the tornado move or before?

Huggles828 · May 11, 2010

Meta Knight in general is a pain in the butt for Link. This is one of the few matchups where I hunker down and turtle, and this is coming from a pretty aggressive player.
If the Meta Knight just started the Prioritornado, Up B will cut through the base of the tornado if I remember correctly from our last discussion (Link Q&A I think?); I'm not sure about later. A lot of the times MK will pull away, hoping for you to chase him to try to punish (they do this with FSmash too). DON'T TAKE THE BAIT. If you don't have the time to get in an attack, you're better off just shielding through the whole attack, then running away and pulling a bomb once you have a chance to breathe.

Scabe said:
But yeah if you find that you can't punish the ending of tornado the best option would be to pull out a bomb.

I completely agree with this. Link is about making sure you get in your moves; don't throw away all your hard work spacing and zoning trying to force in one silly little attack on MK's nearly nonexistant ending lag on the move (or most of his moves for that matter).

"Aaaarggghhh!!! It's a raging vortex of ****!" -Me as I was Rapenado combo'd until like 300% and killed by my friend in the early days of Brawl

#HBC | Red Ryu · May 11, 2010

As everyone pretty much said Bomb>Tornado. However, if you do it at low % he can just start up another tornado. You won't be able to pull another bomb in time and will be forced to shield. If they try to tornado spam you, spam back with bomb. It's the easiest way to beat it out.

Now lets look at tornado's hitboxes,

From the top looks like the best place to beat it out. Some of Link's moves might be able to beat it out on sheer range, thought that is a big maybe.

Nair and Dair from the top look consistent.

Ryos4 · May 12, 2010

Hmm i didnt think there were that many options for defending against the tornado. I usually just toss a bomb into it.

As far as a move that i find troublesome with link, what about jiggly's roll out. I find it rather irritating when spammed.

Scabe · May 12, 2010

LOL yeah I agree with you that Roll out is deceptively hard to avoid. Jumping around usually helps, especially jumping onto a platforms. Using either a timed spotdodge, shielding, or even attack can help against it.

I love the way MK does tornado. He raises his hands up like he's saying "Praise the lord"

I find Nair to be more consistent then Dair for beating tornado from the top. I don't think Dair has ever worked for me.

Rizen · May 14, 2010

MTornados are much weaker in priority at the very start: Zair can stop them from the weak top and bottom for a split second. If you're close dash attack at the beginning is better than shielding. Bomb tricks work of course.

Fox Is Openly Deceptive · May 16, 2010

Scabe, didn't we test this once? From memory, if spaced correctly, Zair, Fair and F-smash (both hits?) beat Tornado. There's the obvious like Bombs, Nair/Dair from above. But we were actually testing what out ranges Tornado effectively, so there were many other things that we deemed were not good enough like grab for example. We were testing what could be used to actually attack the nado itself and beat it.
Again from memory, putting it into practise, retreating Fair was good. Zair easilly out ranged it but you had to space it so the claw hit the middle, i.e. MK himself. F-smash was hard to time, but you found it really easy to time it if you charged it and simply released at the right time.

I don't think we took it much further then that, but I thought this info might help this discussion. I understand that implementing it in a real game is something different entirely, but it's good to know your options.

Imo, Link should be one of the few characters that don't have as much trouble with the Nado as others simply because he has many ways to beat it depending on the situation. So I don't see what the big problem is or rather, I don't see why it should be such a big problem as it's made out to be in comparison to the rest of the cast.

Ryos4 · May 16, 2010

I was playing a tornado spamming meta the other night and i did find something interesting with the gale boomerang. If the gale boomerang hits him on the way back, it can cause Meta's flight path to change.

Like FLUDD or watergun, it tends to make Meta fly up pretty high during his tornado. Im assuming its because he was also trying to get some height with the tornado. Anyway it caused Meta to fly too high for him to touch back on the ground before the tornado was over, leaving him quite vulnerable on his way down. With the proper read on which way hes going to fall, it could easily lead to a dair kill. Though if your lucky enough it might even push him too far from the edge to recover.

While beating out his tornado with Link's sword or bombs every so often is good. I think if can actually pull of the use of the gale boomerang atleast once or twice. It would actually might prevent the Meta from wanting to use the tornado at all. But then again i might be wrong.

Scabe · May 16, 2010

Oh wow that's pretty interesting, I never thought of using the gale boomerang's effects for Tornado. I'll test it out and see what I can find .

So yeah I tested it out and your right it pops MK up sometimes. It doesn't work all the time but it wouldn't hurt to throw the boomerang so yeah, good find man!

Ryos4 · May 16, 2010

I was wondering about the forward toss as well. The end of the damage frames and the beginning of the push frames. Does something similar happen with those frames? It would be a lot simpler if it could also be done from toss instead of the return. Though it might only push Meta back a bit.

#HBC | Red Ryu · May 16, 2010

Fox Is Openly Deceptive said:
Scabe, didn't we test this once? From memory, if spaced correctly, Zair, Fair and F-smash (both hits?) beat Tornado. There's the obvious like Bombs, Nair/Dair from above. But we were actually testing what out ranges Tornado effectively, so there were many other things that we deemed were not good enough like grab for example. We were testing what could be used to actually attack the nado itself and beat it.
Again from memory, putting it into practise, retreating Fair was good. Zair easilly out ranged it but you had to space it so the claw hit the middle, i.e. MK himself. F-smash was hard to time, but you found it really easy to time it if you charged it and simply released at the right time.

I don't think we took it much further then that, but I thought this info might help this discussion. I understand that implementing it in a real game is something different entirely, but it's good to know your options.

Imo, Link should be one of the few characters that don't have as much trouble with the Nado as others simply because he has many ways to beat it depending on the situation. So I don't see what the big problem is or rather, I don't see why it should be such a big problem as it's made out to be in comparison to the rest of the cast.

Main reason, some Link's don't know what in total beats out tornado. It's better if everyone knew each and every option that can beat it out because the best option needs to be applied for each situation.

Legan · May 16, 2010

You guys pretty much got it right. Bombs are actually the best way to deal with it, there really is no sure proof way to punish it from the ground.

A trick I use with nado spammy mks are empty shorthops, which is just shorthop fast fall once or twice randomly in place and this will most likely bait a tornado because most mk's know that link has really few options in the air vs him.

Your objective after you've power shielded the tornado is to retreat and bomb pull. if you dont have enough time to throw the bomb or the right angle(Meaning the position you're in wont allow you to actually hit the nado with the bomb, dont just throw it out) then you retreat to the ledge and wait it out.

The key is to not waste any movement, just do exactly what you need to do to not get hit while keeping a bomb in hand.

Huggles828 · May 21, 2010

Haha, well there you go. Straight from Legan. It doesn't get much more credible than that.

One move that my brother gives me a good bit of trouble with is Fox's reflector. After he throws me off the edge, he likes to jump near the edge and just use reflector over and over to stall in place in midair as well as gimp me. I can't stop it since my boomerang, bombs and arrows suddenly become self-gimps while he's reflecting, and if I'm recovering low he can usually get me with it since if I try to hit him with my B up he'll fast fall and hit my head with it, and grabbing the ledge with the hookshot pulls me straight through his reflector, hitting me. Do we wanna talk about this move, in particular while he's trying to edgeguard us, next? What does everyone think?

Scabe · May 21, 2010

Yeah let's move on to the spacies reflectors next, since I have alot of trouble with them

...

Edit: It's probably not too problematic.

Here's a small list of problematic things:
Falco's lasers
Getting grabbed by IC's, Falco, DDD etc
Snake's grenades

pulse131 · May 21, 2010

unfortunately for link bombs dont blow up on contact when his shield is up unlike snakes. for some ghey *** reason, even though the bombs are bigger, youd just think....meh whatev. anyway, its posssible to gale push one out, or bomb em. if not dair work when coming down.

Ryos4 · May 22, 2010

I kind of agree with the whole bomb vs grenade bs. But really Link's bombs are also good that they explode on impact, don't have to worry about timing anything. I wouldn't want to have to deal with "cooking" Links explosives. It would also be quite bother some for Link if his bombs exploded in his hands whenever he gets hit.

I also don't really have any problem with Snakes grenades. As long as you can keep in mind where Snakes explosives are. You are generally safe, unless the Snake is extremely good at setting up traps. I find it easiest to either throw back the grenades. Or just prevent him from throwing any in the first place. As soon as a snake pulls a grenade out. Its simple to just terrorize him with Links 3 projectiles and even just poke at his grenades with Zair before Snake can toss them. Its also possible to just aim directly for the Grenades with his bomb or arrow to cause them to blow before Snake wants them to. The grenades really are a double edge sword, good for Snake in pretty much every aspect. But they can also be used against him, provided you have the right tools, which Link has many.

I would also like to add Luigi's Down B to the list. Its rather irritating.

IYM! · May 25, 2010

Ryos4 said:
I was playing a tornado spamming meta the other night and i did find something interesting with the gale boomerang. If the gale boomerang hits him on the way back, it can cause Meta's flight path to change.

Like FLUDD or watergun, it tends to make Meta fly up pretty high during his tornado. Im assuming its because he was also trying to get some height with the tornado. Anyway it caused Meta to fly too high for him to touch back on the ground before the tornado was over, leaving him quite vulnerable on his way down. With the proper read on which way hes going to fall, it could easily lead to a dair kill. Though if your lucky enough it might even push him too far from the edge to recover.

While beating out his tornado with Link's sword or bombs every so often is good. I think if can actually pull of the use of the gale boomerang atleast once or twice. It would actually might prevent the Meta from wanting to use the tornado at all. But then again i might be wrong.

that info is very usefull that help me to change my tactics against MK

THANKS YOU VERY MUCH MAN

Scabe · May 25, 2010

Alright guys what should we discuss next? I think getting grabbed is on of my biggest problems.

Ryos4 · May 25, 2010

Uhh dont get grabbed... lol.

Scabe · May 26, 2010

Hey Link get's grabbed so easily! You can grab him out of his first jab when you block. I've had that happen so many times. I get grabbed so much in a match and alot of grabs put you in a bad position. So it be good to know how to not get grabbed

Anyways there's also bananas, Marth's Fair and Side B, lasers like Falco and Wolf.

Ryos4 · May 26, 2010

Hmm out of those i can deal with Marth's Fair/Dancing blades (DB). This is one of the characters Link really needs to rely on his shield. Spot dodging is not the greatest idea against Marth and his dancing blades.

For the most part Marth likes to spam fair as an approach. Which really makes him predictable. A few things you can do is of course Link's projectiles, his zair, or basically timing an air dodge behind him and nairing or something. But what i usually do if not projectile, is to let him get close and then roll behind him. His bair is rather slow compared to his fair, so im usually safe if i roll behind him.

From there if hes still airborne i like to go for a single hit zair into either a sliding ftilt or dsmash, depending on how he reacts to it. Or just be lazy and hit him with a boomerang. If he too close to the ground after his fair and is within grabbing distance, a grab is usually what i would do, as long as im not at killing%s from his Fsmash. But really just do whatever you think is best at that point.

Once caught in the fair combo, theres not much you can do except DI out of it, air dodge, and jump. However try to save your jump incase you get knocked off stage to your doom. Though im not really sure, i havent been caught in an fair combo with Link for a while.

His dancing blades are kind of a problem. I usually get caught in that alot, but it never seems to really do much to me besides knock me away a bit. Best thing to do against DB is to either just stay away from it, or shield it completely and then grab. Never spot dodge it.

Some Marths also do an aerial DB(first hit)>Fair combo as an approach. It causes Marth to stay afloat a little longer and may catch you if you rely on spot dodges too much. Though it also leaves him open for longer then just a normal Fair. Making it much easier to get behind him and counter.

Thats my thoughts on Marth's troublesome moves.

Scabe · May 26, 2010

Updated the OP to just Dancing Blade, I think we can deal with Fair?

Dancing Blade shouldn't be too hard. I think it's time to look into frame data, we should have done that for tornado as well whoops, reminder to post up MK's Tornado frame data. After this we'll move onto Snake's Grenades since there's been some discussion about it already.

Ryos4 · May 26, 2010

I think you should either summarize each move discussed or simply direct people to the portion of the thread. Maybe page numbers.

Scabe · May 26, 2010

Yeah, I'm hoping Red Ryu comes in and fixes it all up, I'm keeping the discussion moving.

Thunder Of Zeus · May 26, 2010

F-Air is deceptively difficult to deal with... Very quick, big range, easy to pull out.

Dancing Blade:
It comes out quickly. If you leave yourself at all vulnerable, whether from a whiffed attack, a close roll, or landing lag, expect to get hit with Dancing Blade. This is our biggest punishing tool. All four hits of Dancing Blade will do some nice damage, but that isn't our only option. DB1 (the first hit of dancing blade) to grab is a decent mixup that can be easily abused. We have the option of DB down, DB up, or DB nuetral which can make predicting how you should DI very difficult.
How do you deal with this S Tier move? You have to be very defensive. Since Marth can use Dancing Blade out of his dash and doesn't really have to worry about getting punished if he misses with it, you just need to be careful. Approach slowly with lots of SH Z-Airs. Don't roll. Just don't. Keep a safe distance, because the range of DB is not big.
Honestly, there isn't much that you can do about it... Just be defensive to avoid taking the damage from this move. And remember: it's a punisher, Marth won't be whipping this out at random times.

Rizen · May 26, 2010

Ryos4 said:
I also don't really have any problem with Snakes grenades. As long as you can keep in mind where Snakes explosives are. You are generally safe, unless the Snake is extremely good at setting up traps. I find it easiest to either throw back the grenades.

If Snake presses 'B' when another character is holding a grenade he can make them drop it; instant bomb throw is useful to send them back with holding them (airdodge+'A'+direction you want to throw). With 'rang, Zair and Link's superior camping, grenades aren't a problem from a distance.

Scabe said:
Hey Link get's grabbed so easily! You can grab him out of his first jab when you block. I've had that happen so many times. I get grabbed so much in a match and alot of grabs put you in a bad position. So it be good to know how to not get grabbed

This makes every Link player frustrated

. Hitting with the tip of attacks helps, Zair, landing an Nair or move behind the opponent, dropping/up or down throwing/holding bombs, boomerang, jumping OoS, platform camping to stop some CGs (DDD). Link will get grabbed but these tricks help.

Thunder Of Zeus said:
Dancing Blade:
It comes out quickly. If you leave yourself at all vulnerable, whether from a whiffed attack, a close roll, or landing lag, expect to get hit with Dancing Blade. This is our biggest punishing tool. All four hits of Dancing Blade will do some nice damage, but that isn't our only option. DB1 (the first hit of dancing blade) to grab is a decent mixup that can be easily abused. We have the option of DB down, DB up, or DB nuetral which can make predicting how you should DI very difficult.
How do you deal with this S Tier move? You have to be very defensive. Since Marth can use Dancing Blade out of his dash and doesn't really have to worry about getting punished if he misses with it, you just need to be careful. Approach slowly with lots of SH Z-Airs. Don't roll. Just don't. Keep a safe distance, because the range of DB is not big.
Honestly, there isn't much that you can do about it... Just be defensive to avoid taking the damage from this move. And remember: it's a punisher, Marth won't be whipping this out at random times.

My best guess is DI up slightly and out and spam 'Z' to try to counter with a Zair. Zair is good to stop follow up attacks from DIing horizontally near the ground.

Ryos4 · May 26, 2010

If i get hit by it, I usually just suck it up and take the whole dancing blade. Its never going to kill you unless you get gimped or waste your jump trying to get out. I don't know if you can actually DI out of it since Marth moves forward with each strike. I think the best bet would be to ready yourself for some good DI and attempt to shield or spot dodge if you get a chance.

Though does anyone know if any of Links faster moves Clank with DB? Well i guess really only Nair or Jab, Zair might work but Ive never tried.

Every once in a while when i play marth for during long sets with people, i use his DB like Mario's cape or Fox's reflector. It's a nice defensive tactic that causes you to fall slower for a moment so your opponent attacks at the wrong time or in the wrong direction leaving you to safely touch down on the stage or punish them. I also use it to steady myself when knocked horizontally at low %s. It prevents you from stumbling on the ground while protecting you slightly.

I'm probably not the only one who does this so this should also be aware of being used like this sometimes.

Dumbfire · May 26, 2010

Try to get the Dancing Blade glitch.
=D
I got it a tournament match lately, hilarious. I was so suprised that I got stuck on ther the lip of FD.
=/

Scabe · May 26, 2010

Oh dude, I forgot about that Dancing Blade glitch. I also pulled it of in a tourney match against Shaya! Haha, I really wish I could have saved it but there was no replay hack.

Anyways here's a vid of the glitch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-LMV7ahLCM

Rizen · May 26, 2010

If you're close and on the ground, DIing down and holding shield is probably your best option. That's what I do for moves like TLink's Fsmash and moves that suck Link in like Peach's Dsmash/TLink's Spin etc.

Dumbfire · May 26, 2010

And most Marths will use the downard (green) swipes as the last hit of the dancing blade on a shield cause the multihit has the biggest chance of going thrue the shield.
If you see that happening alot you might want to move your shield down. Just watch if the Marths will notice.

Thunder Of Zeus · May 26, 2010

Volcanic Doomfire said:
And most Marths will use the downard (green) swipes as the last hit of the dancing blade on a shield cause the multihit has the biggest chance of going thrue the shield.
If you see that happening alot you might want to move your shield down. Just watch if the Marths will notice.

Not... usually... We don't risk them DI'ing out and punishing us. The usual is to keep going with normal. Occassionally we will finish with DB up to start a juggling act.

Huggles828 · May 26, 2010

I'm pretty sure Dancing Blade has transcending priority too, i.e. nothing will clank with it (except maybe Meta Knight's every move in the game, haha). Do you know if this is right, ToZ? Normally I try to DI toward the ground and away (to shield) but if I notice after the second hit or so DIing is unlikely to work, I suck it up and then DI up and toward him so when I'm launched it has a lower likelihood of me DI-spiking myself. I also know some Marths who like to get risky and try to mix it up, intentionally slipping up the timing on the first two strikes to do it again/lead into other attacks, like smashes and grabs. It's definitely a nasty move Marth has in his arsenal.

Rizen · May 27, 2010

Will Marth ever try DB in the air?

Ryos4 · May 27, 2010

As i said earlier some will for the added stall in the air, or use it to combo into an fair. But usually that's only one hit. But to use the whole set in the air or atleast starting in the air and continuing on the ground. It doesn't seem like it would work as well. It would probably be easier to DI out of and then Punish. Or simply get past it via roll or air dodge and then they would be completely open.

I really cant see any Marth wanting to take that risk when Fair is probably a better choice and less dangerous. But with the amount of players out there with different play styles, you really cant count anything out completely. But in general, my guess would be no.

Scabe · May 27, 2010

Frame data for Dancing Blade

Forward b 1
Hit: 4-7
End: 30
(15) >>
Shield Stun: 1
~Shield Hit Lag: 0
ADVANTAGE: -25
Tipper Shield Stun: 1
~Shield Hit Lag: 0
ADVANTAGE: -25
Regular Stun: 21
~Hit Lag: 0
ADVANTAGE: -5
Regular Tipper Stun: 22
~Hit Lag: 0
ADVANTAGE: -4

Forward b 2:
Hit: 21-25
End: 55
(28) >>

Forward b 3:
33-37
End: 72
(39)>>

Forward b 4:
49-54
End: 92

---------------

(28)>>
Down b 3
Hit: 34-36
End: 72
(39)>>

Down b 4
Hit: 52 – 78
End: 103

---------------

(15) >>
Up b 2
Hit: 22-26
End: 53
(28)>>

Up b 3
Hit: 33-37
End: 71
(43)>>

Up b 4
Hit: 54-59
End: 92

Taken from Marth's Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=204825

Now look at Link's frame data and see what if what he can punish Dancing Blade with: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=228233

Anyways I'm tired, I'll look further into this later. Hope you guys can make something of this.

DeTa · May 27, 2010

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I45w9NHHpXs

PK-ow! · May 28, 2010

The best time to escape DB is on DB2, where sometimes DB2-blue will provide insufficient stun to link, and sometimes DB2-red will stab under a character knocked up by DB1. Inexperienced Marfs, or Marfs abusing DB, will likely open themselves up to this, and you've got to expect it to capitalize.

Other than that, shield -> cross roll. Try to confirm a DB3 and act before it (DB has 0 shield lag). It's the reason why DB is supposedly bad outside punishment. You'll be in frame disadvantage if player is fast because of Link's slow roll, but this game is not free for Marth. (If you roll on just DB1, Marth will cut open your *** and install a dining set in it.)

Don't overestimate the hitbox size. I really don't see how this is a problematic move. It's a tool Marth uses when you screw up, and if he doesn't telegraph with step-in, way faster than reaction. Tip is don't screw up. Don't random spot dodge. Except to bait DB.

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