Link's Problematic Move Discussion: Diddy's Bananas

[pulse131]

short and sweet with dancing blade. dont land next to marth whenever possible. when coming down try and get further a way from him with bomb drops and throws.

 

[PK-ow!]

If you don't land next to Marth how will you get inside his tips?
And that doesn't have to do with Dancing Blade. If Marth is using DB as a guessing game at short range that's where your payoff is; if you shield DB you're gold. The issue is if DP comes into play.

Green DB4 doesn't always shield stab. It is more likely to if Marth is using a slow tempo, but in that case even Link can shield grab after DB3. If I'm reading the above frame data right, Link has 2 frame window to do it (to beat even a red DB4), but you can go just by vision/sound/feeling that DB3's hitbox has ended, no problem.
And there's always roll behind.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I usually shield the attack and punish accordingly if the Marth doesn't know how to use it.

The only trick is figuring out on block if they will end dancing blade early. Like PK-ow said it's punishment so the trick is to either bait it or catch them on a mistake of using it. If they try to approach with it, you can punish it with grab or jab OoS in most situation, remember they can end it early and use different directionals.

 

[Scabe]

I can't really make sense of the frame data x_x

You guys have nailed this discussion quite well.

• I found that at some points you can roll during DB when you shield it.
• If the Marth delays the DB you can shield it as soon as you hit the ground.
• There's alot of mixup's with this move. DB > Grab/Jab. It's a good shield pressure move.
• Down B 4 can be Smash DI'd into Marth and you end up behind him.
• Don't ever spot dodge this move.
• Best thing is to roll away if it starts.
• If you end up blocking the last hit of DB. I think you'll be able to punish it with anything so make it count. You may time to punish the lag by Jumping OOS and Dair.

Anyways let's move on to Snake's Grenades.

Criteria:

• Basic Info
• Grenade AT's
• How can we deal with them?

 

[Ryos4]

I went over dealing with Snakes grenades in a general sense earlier. However Snake does a lot more with grenades then just throwing them at you directly.

I also don't really have any problem with Snakes grenades. As long as you can keep in mind where Snakes explosives are. You are generally safe, unless the Snake is extremely good at setting up traps. I find it easiest to either throw back the grenades. Or just prevent him from throwing any in the first place. As soon as a snake pulls a grenade out. Its simple to just terrorize him with Links 3 projectiles and even just poke at his grenades with Zair before Snake can toss them. Its also possible to just aim directly for the Grenades with his bomb or arrow to cause them to blow before Snake wants them to. The grenades really are a double edge sword, good for Snake in pretty much every aspect. But they can also be used against him, provided you have the right tools, which Link has many.

Many higher level Snake's use a grenade wavebounce pull above stage, usually after dropping C4. It allows Snake to change his DI completely in the opposite direction. Sometimes mind gaming players into walking into his C4.

Grenades in defense. I've heard that grenades come out in 1 frame. Not sure if its actually true. But, either way it comes out really fast and allows Snake to pull it out for defensive purposes, preventing combos and even chain grabs. Any attack that seems to hit the grenade itself causes it to explode. Someone need to check what throws Link can do against a Snake with a Grenade in hand. I know some throws dont cause it to explode.

Shield breaking with grenades. Grenades do alot of shield damage when they explode, but not only that. They do some pretty good shield damage when they are just thrown and can be used to break your shield if your not careful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW7rMy3-c9s

Grenade+DAC. Snake can toss a grenade at you and then go into a DAC to pick it up. After which then throws it. Works great against rolls or spot dodges if they dont see the grenade coming. It can also work well if they are hit with the DAC, since on average it seems to explode a second or half a second after thrown.

Snake can also intentionally blow himself up with a grenade to chase you in the air after he blows you up with something else. Mostly used to go after you with a Uair for the kill, but can and will be used with any aerial, bair being his fastest?

 

[IYM!]

no one post here,

what about Wolf D-smash, that move is a Link killer

 

[Ryos4]

I don't know if there's much Link can do about that move. I think at best is to space he doesn't have a chance to use it or just try to shield/spot dodge. It does have some ending lag so grabs and jabs could be used to punish. But at the same time, a wolf managed to hit me with a dsmash when i was behind him while i was in the middle of a jab combo. Spot dodged the first hit into a Dsmash, the second hit ... hit me before my second jab could come out.

This match http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oeNk785MWQ at 1.35

 

[Huggles828]

Whiplash. If you're at high enough damage it's gonna semispike you to death, DI and SDI down and hit Z twice to tether the edge as you fly past. Whiplashing is an incredibly difficult but incredibly useful move for Link. Don't try it if it's not going to kill you though; wait 'til you're like 100% or so.

 

[Ryos4]

Anyone know how fast the whiplash save can come out?

 

[Rizen]

Anyone know how fast the whiplash save can come out?

It depends.
Time required for Link to airdodge after being launched+3 frames for air-dodge to start=starting lag. Zair immediately cancels air dodge and during the first 5 frames the AI searches for a tether point. Frames 5-9 Zair won't tether and is readying to attack, frame 10 attack starts.

DI down and mash 'Z' there's a good chance it'll find the edge.

 

[Anonano]

It depends.
Time required for Link to airdodge after being launched+3 frames for air-dodge to start=starting lag. Zair immediately cancels air dodge and during the first 5 frames the AI searches for a tether point. Frames 5-9 Zair won't tether and is readying to attack, frame 10 attack starts.

DI down and mash 'Z' there's a good chance it'll find the edge.

Considering launch speeds and the (lack of) hitstun, you'll be able to pull out a zair in under 10 frames consistently, meaning that anywhere below 300% you'll have the possibility of zairing early.

 

[Huggles828]

Yeah. When I whiplash hard hits, I have more trouble zairing too early than I do too late or being unable to do pull it off. It's great for all the semispiking moves; Meta Knight, Jigglypuff, and the spacies, for example, all have semispiking dsmashes.

 

[Ryos4]

So any more thoughts on the grenade thing? Before the the official topic change?

 

[Huggles828]

Haha, well, it seems it's been kinda done for a while I guess. It seems we kinda moved on to semispiking moves despite the topic still being the grenades.

 

[Scabe]

What do you guys want to move on to? Take a look in the OP for ideas but if you have something you can't deal with then post ahead.

I'm sorry that I kept this thing open, I just take too long to finish things

But anyways, discussions for all the things we've talked about in the past are still open and will always be open so feel free to contribute anything. I'll get my grenade stuff in one day.

 

[Rizen]

^Falco's ForwardB combined with laser/shine camping.

 

[Scabe]

Maybe we should just do Falco since he's just problematic all together , I'll update this today with the new move not still not too sure what to move on to!

 

[IYM!]

the true is, exist several moves to cause problems in Link
Samus Zair
Fox Dsmash
Samus Dair
Fox reflector
Wolf laser
Fox Usmash
Wolf Dsmash
Falco laser
MK tornado
Falco reflector
MK Dsmash
Falco Dair
DK Fthrow
Falco chain throw
DK Up B
Pikachu Down B
Kirby Dair
Olimar side B
Kirby f*****g hamer
Kirby Fsmash

for examples

This thread is usefull, but need a little of organisation XD

 

[Scabe]

Dealing With Snake's Grenades

​

So I've done some research and I'm going to quote some of the useful info that I've found:

Grenades will explode upon the count of 4. As in 1-Mississippi, 2-Mississippi, 3-Mississippi, 4.

Neutral special- Hand grenades

Damage: 12%
Speed: Medium-fast
Range: Depends on the throw
Priority: High
Lag: Medium-short
Kills around: --

By far, Snake's best move. This is VERY important aspect of Snake. He needs it to camp against his opponents. The hitbox of this attack is huge and you can create a lot of tactics and strategies with this tool. You can "cook" the grenade by holding it for a while then throwing it on the enemy. Remember, this takes exactly 3 seconds to explode.

Along with that you can strip it or also known as "grenade strip". All you need to do is throw a grenade then shield drop a grenade. There's far too much to say about this tool. It can be used in many ways like approaching, defending, camping, etc. Grenades can also be effected by stages since some stages have those slopes, unique platforms, etc.

Grenades can also explode or be exploded by Snake's other tools. Grenades can explode land mine and C4 can explode both grenade and land mine.

This helps Snake in increasing the blast radius and hit box of this attack which makes it useful for spacing.

Grenades also explodes if it's in contact with an attack. If the attack the enemy uses catches the grenade, then do grenade strip.

Additional note: You can use this to blow up land mines which makes it a safer and better way to explode land mines.

You can cook grenades, counter enemy attacks by predicting by shield dropping a nade (Grenade counter in other words). Use the environment around you in the stage and take advantage of the platforms, slopes, etc. Also, you can grab people and start tech chasing with nades. Nades help in tech chasing if their in the back and front of the enemy. Oh whenever the enemy catches the nade, strip it. The enemy gets disarmed. Nades also explode if it's on a land mine or if you detonate a C4 while the nade is on top of it. It does well.

Advanced Techniques

Grenade Stripping
So Snake's have this really useful and odd AT called 'Grenade Stripping'. Whenever Snake shield drops his second grenade, the first grenade no matter what it's doing will instantly drop.

So if Link picks up Snake's first grenade and tries to throw it back at Snake while Snake does a 'Grenade Strip', the Grenade that Link is about to throw will instantly drop down. So watch out when you try to pick up his grenades and throw it back at him.

Grenade stripping also helps his camping game as it lets him choose where to drop his grenade.

Here's a video of Grenade Strippinghttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRH0ChSBQdA

Wavebounce Grenade

Some Snake's like to Wavebounce their grenades, which makes it harder to predict where they'll land and juggle the Snake. They have a huge hitbox, and they do so much damage. They have good shield pressure. It's best to get these grenades out the way or to avoid these.

Tips:

Dodge them, and remember where they are. If the Snake doesn't force-drop them out of your hand, throw them back with an Air-Dodge-Cancelled-Item-Throw. Counting the timer, or atleast getting a good feel for it, is essential. Know when to shield the nades actual physical damage.

Watch out for his fast Dash attack > DACUS that comes after words

Boomerangs clash with grenades, bombs blow them up and arrows can clash with grenades. I think Zair blows them up.

Zair is an amazing move against a Snake when he is holding a grenade.

Anyways I've gathered other boards problematic threads.
Samus: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=271745
Pikachu: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=277002
ZSS: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=266242
DDD: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=228990

Should we move on to reflectors?

 

[Ryos4]

I would also like to note that arrows can blow grenades up when they are on the ground.

 

[IYM!]

well i have no problems to deal with granades, but reflectors make my life dificult

 

[Scabe]

Hopefully you guys come up with some cool ways around reflectors because I really hate them

 

[Ryos4]

I think you should go by character in terms of reflector. Since they act differently for each character, and the ways to get around each one is different as well.

 

[Huggles828]

We could kinda do a summary of reflectors really quick then move into character specifics I suppose.

In general Link doesn't like having to fight people with reflectors since it usually means they automatically outcamp him which forces him to approach, and Link sucks pretty bad at approaching. Most of them tend to be great for gimping Link too (both Pit's and Mario's flip him around, Fox's and Wolf's can occasionally be used to semispike people which pretty much murders Link and his short distance recovery).

Most characters you can bomb their feet and the explosion will still hit them. It's harder against Falco sometimes because he kicks his reflector forward (i.e. if you throw the bomb straight ahead) and I think Pit's shield blocks the explosion but can be hit from behind or above for example.

If your boomerang is reflected, it is always the gale part of it, meaning it will now push you around. It keeps going for a while and until it disappears you can't throw your boomerang again. This can be dangerous if you throw your boomerang trying to get back on the edge and are at an angle they can reflect it back at you, but shouldn't mean you should rule this option out.

Arrows get reflected and hit you in the face if your face happens to be in the way. Pretty much about it. Not many tricks with arrows as far as I know (if they're not fully charged sometimes if you stand still it will hit your shield and you'll be okay I guess, but that hardly qualifies as something noteworthy). Anyone know anything particularly noteworthy about arrows and reflectors?

This is pretty basic and simple I guess. Any other general notes about reflectors before we move on to character-specific reflectors?

 

[Scabe]

They're all kinda the same but I guess the one I'm having trouble most is Falco's reflector we'll quickly go through them all.

 

[Ryos4]

Well like Wolf. Defensive and offensive, fast and gives invincibility.

Fox is fast and allows him to float.

Falco has range with lots of ending lag.

Pit's Mirror can reflect Link's attacks recovery and has super armor. Comes out fairly slowly compared to other reflectors and has some ending lag.

Pit's Angel Rings have long range and do damage as well as some forward momentum and an air hit box at the end.

Mario's Cape reflects everything including momentum, allows Mario to air stall, and has some long ending lag.

Rob's Spin has some momentum, fairly long startup and ending lag, and does damage, overall fairly junk.

Zelda's Naru's Love is really fast, has invincibility frames, does multi hit damage with very minimal knock back, and is overall evil.

They all have their specific threats and i dont think they should be taken lightly in terms of how to deal with them. Hmm i wonder if i missed any.

In general i think bombs are the best way to deal with reflectors, basically just aiming near them and not actually for them is usually the best bet. As if they do reflect it they still get hit by the explosion. I want to note that Pit can be immune to bombs from the front. Also bombs tossed up and down are relatively save, though i think they can be reflected up and down as well. Though when going against a reflector, its best to use multiple projectiles at once, so if they do get reflected they can cancel each other out. Arrow>Rang, Rang> Arrow, Arrow>Bomb, Bomb>Rang. Overall are relatively safe. Its important to know which of Link's projectiles can beat out his others when they come in contact with a reflected one. Also yes the hylian shield can be helpful against arrows. Also get use to catching bombs as much as possible to overall make your bomb game against reflectors even better.

 

[IYM!]

falco reflector is very dangerous, it can reflect projectiles in all moment, the final lag of his move is useful to do a close_rangr attack, no a projectile,

also , most of the reflectors moves, can not repel projectiles from above

 

[Rizen]

falco reflector is very dangerous, it can reflect projectiles in all moment, the final lag of his move is useful to do a close_rangr attack, no a projectile,

also , most of the reflectors moves, can not repel projectiles from above

I've tested this already:
"vertical traveling bombs’ paths can be altered by water sprays, gales, G&W’s Uair and normal shields but no other reflecting/repelling moves.

Vertical traveling bombs will scroll with moving stages."
Vertical bombs= up/Down bomb throws, drops, planted bombs, and invincibombs. Link has a lot of anti-reflector tricks. I'll post more later.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Bombs > Reflectors.

There's the obvious like how you can throw it at them and if it lands just infront of them, the blast will still hit them, but there's more to it then that.

When you throw them horizontaly, you'd be better off using lighter throws or throwing them from the air. Why? Because the lighter the throw and the higher up it is thrown, the more the Bomb dips downwards. If the bomb is going at an angle more downwards than usual, then it has more chance of beating reflectors. Why? Because if it is reflected, it won't go back towards you as far and in some cases it can be reflected and land right infront of them and the blast will still hit them.

You also want to throw Bombs up and down. They can be reflected, but not in the normal sense. They can 'change sides' but they will continue on their current path. So if you throw a Bomb down at an opponent, even if he reflects it, it could still hit him because it will continue to go downwards (through him) and hit the ground. The blast can still hit him, but the Bomb itself, once reflected, will not get set off when it touches him. The same deal goes for bomb throws up.

 

[Ryos4]

Well i think the best bet would be to use Falco's reflector against him. It has some pretty long ending lag with no hit box.

So my thoughts are get really predictable with your bombs in the beginning of the match and always toss it straight at Falco, and after he gets use to just reflecting them to stop it, transition into some bomb mind games. Like ZAC, Bomb smashing, and perhaps bomb catch>DAC. This could possibly catch him off guard as he spams this reflector. Though if you dont want to risk being predictable, then do the exact opposite and be unpredictable with your bombs, and go wild with drops, Uthrows, Dthrows, and everything else he can do with them.

Either way i do agree that bombs are once again the solution to all of Link's problems.

Also i wonder, has anyone tried throwing a bomb at a reflected bomb? Does the reflected bomb have any more priority? Or would they both just explode? And what is the projectile hierarchy like for Link in terms of priority when considering reflected ones as well?

My thoughts:
Bomb<or=Rang(throw and return)
Bombs>Arrow
Arrow=Rang

 

[IYM!]

also the bomb is heavy, i mean when our oponent reflect a bomb, the bomb will go diagonaly down
(like a semi spike knockback )

falco is our problem, his reflect the bomb with more strength

 

[Rizen]

Anti-reflector tools:
Bombs, Zair, boomerang, Link's good anti projectile tactics, using combinations of these.
Throw bombs down, mix with Bomb Zair, invincibombs, Bomb Fsmashes and 'rang spam.
If your 'rang's reflected, Zair or use any standard attack on the boomerang it's self to stop it or SH pull a bomb during the gale push.
Zair spam while holding a bomb until the fuse is short (5 seconds or 4 flash effects) then throw it so it explodes mid air.
SH 'rang bait reflector>FF Nair cancel the gale>jab/grab/Smash.
Don't forget about airdodges, instant bomb throws, and dash attacks; we can catch reflected bombs. Mix with Zair.
Bomb drops>aerial attacks and chaining.
If spacing fails, bomb shield and spotdodge.
Link's Hylian Shield will stop reflected arrows fired from far away.
We have to approach (ugh) but we shouldn't approach closer than Zair's range.
This applies here too:

There's obviously no out camping Falco. Comparing 3 Falcos, 2 of which were Falco mains, my best answer is terrain. FalcoA murdered me on FD, I don't know how to take more than 1 stock off a defensive Falco on FD .
Based on that I later tried to power shield through when playing FalcoB on BF, she (yes she) could still effectively Laser/Phantasm/Shine my Link to death. Finally I started platform spamming mainly with bombs and landing canceling moves. That did better because I could do something besides react to stupid lasers. FalcoB won and banned Brinstar so I picked PS1. The match looked similar to a FD match until the stage changed; then I could make FalcoB have to think. Needless to say I lost the match but using terrain improved my performance considerably. Next time I might pick Yoshi's Island (brawl) even though I hate it.
FalcoC will try to force chain grabs early on. I will pull a bomb and approach with SHs and Airdodges then switch to a tip-of-Zair SH spam and quick attack method. He usually grabs me so I DI away, slightly down and mash Zair. He learned this and did a pivot grab thing so I started mixing in Nairs to break the chain. And blah, blah, blah.

My point is a large part of adapting and not having an opponent spam your brains out is avoiding their preferred attack area. Falco's is the horizontal laser paths. Link can attack from almost every angle so finding a good angle or distance vs characters that's relatively safe is a good first step to being in a space to read/condition opponents.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Exhaust a bomb til it almost explodes, then throw it and if Falco reflects it and it explodes you can punish with dacus

 

[IYM!]

bomb with Zair is a good idea to beat falco reflector

 

[Scabe]

I'm not sure what the range of Falco's reflector is like. Will Zair out range it?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Will Zair out range it?

no

10 char

 

[Rizen]

I'm not sure what the range of Falco's reflector is like. Will Zair out range it?

Barely, you can land>shield>smash or bait reflectors with airdodges. It requires smart playing because Falco's reflector starts faster. The little non-energy orb at the center of the blue hexagon shows the attack area.

 

[Scabe]

Will Fsmash outrange it?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Will Fsmash outrange it?

no

I couldn't resist XD.

 

[Scabe]

I hate Falco's reflector.