Underload
Lazy
Discuss the Metaknight matchup in here.
camp with nades and space with fti-
aight, so the obvious thing you will notice here is that MK has superior combat tools to you in almost every respect. better range, better block safety, better punishment options, better frame traps etc. so aside from learning and abusing the other players habits(difficult with MK because he has so many options that even mediocre players can mix up pretty well), you really have to abuse your weight class and make sure that you are staying alive as long as possible. you're going to want to control the center of the stage as much as possible and try not to get grabbed or hit with your back to the edge, getting dthrown at low % near the edge = pretty good chance you die. likewise at high % good stage position can save you and allow you to live to 180ish pretty frequently. if you get gimped or even killed at moderately low %'s, odds are you're getting ***** in this matchup
snake's dthrow is pretty effective vs MK and is a large part of why I prefer this matchup to facing marth, jab and ftilt actually hit MK if he just lays there so he can't risk trying to make you make the first move very much. his options from there are pretty standard, you can cover 50-75% of them depending on what you do as with most characters
personally I feel that brinstar is the bane of snake's existence and should be banned accordingly, but some snake's hate RC more in this MU. snake's best CP's IMO are halberd, lylat, and FD. I think I do best on lylat but that may be a personal thing, I've done well as MK vs snake here too. I think BF is the worst neutral vs MK as it greatly aids his juggling game and isn't too large either. YI I'm pretty torn on because it's so small and the blast zones are close which are bad for snake but the layout can make it hard to penetrate your camping and the lack of space under the stage can prevent a lot of bad recovery situations that can arise on other stages.
more later when other people post
-Tech the down-throw at low percents.
-Always have a grenade or Mortar covering your position.
-Utilize Shield + Grenades to slow down approaches.
-Count MK's jumps when he's Dair approaching your head. Snake Dash to the longer side of the stage when his jumps are low.
-Always have grenades on the field/around you, to the point where if you check the projectiles thrown in a match it'll be at 30+. Top Snakes always use their projectiles liberally.
-Don't go for the edge when recovering. MK can on reaction deal with all of your options and put you off the stage again. Recover on to the stage.
-Boost Pivot Grab can punish poorly spaced Fairs.
-When in Down throw situations, go for the guaranteed damage of F-Tilt which can result in 32% damage, or 36% damage if the grab is from a jab setup. That's almost half a stock of damage for MK.
-SDI everything. Fair, bair, F-Tilt and so on can be popped out of early.
-Encourage MK to shuttle loop you early to reduce its killing power when its fresh.
-Remain in the center of the stage, and DI throws so that you either tech them, or are moved towards the center of the stage.
-Save your Fast Fall and Jump for when MK starts to approach you to throw off his spacing. Save your jump for as long as possible.
-SDI Up Airs up and away [towards the stage] so that you can avoid follow ups, and position yourself better on the stage.
Hmm, about time. This is a crazy matchup that can be very fast paced, or very campy. I kind of enjoy this matchup, it's fun. It's not as scary as many people make it out to be for Snake. Beware, long read.
Pros:
Snake once again lives forever
Nades stop tornado spammers very easily
Can camp MK
Usmash and nades stop air camping
MK dies to a fresh utilt very early
Snake can make use of mines/nades/C4 much easier
Cons:
MK destroys Snake in the air
Can gimp Snake 0 to death if MK gets you off the edge
Has a near 0 to death at 0% with uairs to tornado KO
MK can get crazy momentum
MK has better priority
For the most part, the MK is going to either be very aggressive, or very campy. You will have to learn how to deal with both kinds. You will also need to perfect your recovery or you WILL get gimped every time you are off stage. If you learn to recover better and how to camp and punish MK (yes you can punish him), then you can win this matchup.
Let's start with camping. If you're in the lead, DO NOT APPROACH. You have 0 reason to approach if you are winning. Make MK approach you. Your ability to set up traps will make it tough for MK to successfully approach without taking damage. It's hard to explain how to camp properly, but nades in front of you help greatly. Don't hold nades in your hand, you'll find out why later. Cook nades perfectly then throw them at the MK if the MK is just standing there. If he's Dair camping, jump up and throw a well cooked nade, etc. What you DON'T want to do during a camping MK, especially one that's Dair camping, is run up and try a Nair/Bair. That'll get you *****.
At low %'s, you are in danger of getting *****. Do not stand right next to the ledge. A dash grab from MK brings you to the ledge and in gimping position. Jumping aerials at MK at 0% can lead to Uair combos. Stay between the middle to end of the stage best you can. Don't jump aerials for no reason.
The next biggest problem with MK, is tornado. Fortunately, Snake stops that quite well with nades on the ground. If you have a decent distance between MK and you and he starts nadoing towards you, drop a nade and shield. MK will blow up. If you can't pull out a nade in time, just shield it. MKs usually try to shield poke with tornado on Snakes head. Tilt your shield upward to prevent this. Punishing nado is easy if you shielded it. A full ftilt will teach MK not to spam tornado recklessly again. You can grab to tech chase too. Some MKs will try to be smart and tornado away near the end if you shielded it. Punish with a dash attack or DACUS. One thing I notice many MKs do is if they whiff their tornado, when they land, they'll immediately spot dodge and try to Dsmash. Punish the spot dodge. Also note that MKs can juggle you very well with tornado spam on the ground. You can get out of this by DIing out of the nado to footstool it, or pull out a nade right before getting caught in the next one.
Now we move onto getting gimped by MK. He has many options, but the idea is recover fast and high immediately, like many other Snake matchups. Many MKs try to gimp you out of your Cypher if you recover high with MK's Up B. MK gets knocked by your Cypher and is able to move again to try to further gimp you. Avoid this best you can. DI it upward so you don't get hit low. If you can air dodge the Up B, go for it, however smart MKs bait that and punish with an Nair/Dair/Uair. Mix up your recovery landings so you don't get punished in the air too much. Don't do Nair every time if it didn't work the first time. Don't air dodge every time either.
If you're stuck recovering low, you're in danger of losing your stock at any %. Sometimes you might just have to take the hit by MK and work off of that. C4 recovering works too, but beware MK can footstool your C4 recovery, which is pretty much guaranteed to lose your stock, but others chars can do that too. Speaking of which, don't keep C4 on the stage at low %'s, not a smart idea. When landing on stage, MKs like to wait for you to land then grab you or charge a dsmash/fsmash. If you see them charging a smash, if you can, do a Bair/Uair landing. If you see them waiting, pivot nade away as they'll probably go for a grab. DO NOT air dodge land next to MK. That's a free dsmash or grab for them.
Dthrow tech chasing beats up MK pretty badly. Especially next to the ledge. So abuse this best you can. Even ending a dthrow tech chase with a full ftilt is great. If an MK is spot dodge spamming, grab or ftilt them every time.
Some MKs love to Up B spam, usually grounded. It's punishable. Shield grab the glide attack if they use it. You may have to move a little forward before it hits because some MKs try to space it slightly away so it's unpunishable. Smarter MKs may immediately cancel the Up B if it whiffs. You can punish that too if you notice they do that. Some may glide past you, punish that too. Just don't try to clash moves with the glide attack, even if you cancel it out, the MK can punish you after. Jumping a quick Uair can work sometimes, but is generally not recommended.
MK juggling you in the air a lot? Mix it up. Simple as that. Smart MKs love to bait air dodges and Nair/Uair/Up B you back up for more damage. Don't do the same thing multiple times in a row. You have pivot nading, fast falling air dodge, regular air dodging, or random aerials that may work. Do note that MKs can Uair out of your Nair pretty easily. You should use it very sparingly. Also note when recovering high, MK only has so many jumps. Eventually he will have to touch down. Use this chance to land safely.
Dealing with MK's Dsmash...is easy. Ftilt it, easily works if you powershield. If not, still can punish it if you weren't pushed too far away. Punishing from the back is trickier but doable. Dsmash is usually MK's panic button. Expect another one if the first one misses. If you get hit by Dsmash, DI upward ALWAYS. You can survive Dsmash at insane %'s this way. If you DI it wrong, you'll die early or get off stage for an easy gimp. Almost all of MK's attacks can be DIed just by DIing upward.
One very underused move in this matchup IMO is mines. MK does not have any projectiles, so MK cannot detonate them without damaging himself most of the time. I find that MKs run into the dsmashes most of the time. Learn to use these against MK. If the MK user is not used to remembering where mines are put, they will get ***** by them. Same can be said for C4, but these are sometimes more hidden.
Killing MK isn't too difficult. Fresh utilt KOs MK at like 90%-100% with good DI. Even earlier if you bait MK to jump at you while you're on a platform. MKs may like to hide in shield at high %'s, so grab to tech chase. There's a grab release to dash attack KO on MK at around 140% if it's fresh, so learn the timing to that. You'll mainly be killing with utilt, explosives, maybe a random aerial if you're lucky. Don't underestimate how well Dtilt can KO.
MK can kill you many ways. Usually if it's not a gimp, it'll be a fresh Dsmash, Fsmash, Nair/Uair or Up B. Utilt can also KO you at about 150% if fresh and sweet spotted.
Most important of all, play smart. Don't be put in bad situations by doing stupid things. If MK is trying to plank you, don't jump a Bair off stage. Just camp, force the approach if you're in the lead, and even if you're not, most MKs won't camp the entire match. Approaching backwards with a nade pulled out can stop a lot of MK approaches. Like I warned earlier, don't hold a nade in hand vs MK if he can come close fast enough. There's an omnigay where MK Uthrows you right as the nade explodes, which kills you if MK has port priority. If you have the port priority though, you're safe from this and the MK will die instead if they attempt it (can be used as a mindgame). Avoid spot dodge and rolling habits against MK. Dsmash will eat you alive otherwise.
Last but not least, stages....this is tricky. Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar are by far MK's best stages against Snake, with Delfino closely behind. Frigate is also a decent choice against Snake with MK. RC or Brinstar being banned is up to the player. I feel as Snake doesn't really do so bad on either, even against MK. So just ban whichever you're worse on. For counterpicks, most players ban Halberd against Snakes now. I prefer FD as a CP. SV could work too. You may wanna avoid BF, but I feel like Snake does fine there vs MK too. It really comes down to your preference.
Summary:
Don't approach if you don't have to
Learn how to not get gimped
Mix up landings
Learn how to punish MK's whiffed moves
Don't jump aerials for no reason
Overall, it's a really messy matchup with a lot to learn and figure out. It's one of those matchups where if one player doesn't know the matchup and the other does, it's ****. However, if both players know the matchup, it's actually pretty even. So I'm leaving it at 50:50. On paper, MK beats Snake due to his many options. However, in tourney (not wifi), things do not happen that way. No matter how much MK can juggle Snake up to 50%, one mistake from MK and he eats 50% too. Many Snake mains probably think this matchup is 60:40 or worse just because they don't know how to deal with getting gimped or juggled.
Sorta a TL:dR version of what I would write if I had time/felt like it.
-Always camp at the beginning if you're unfarmiliar with how your opponent plays. Some MKs will carry momentum after hits and some wont. You have to figure out these kinds of patterns quickly. But assume that they're going to take 40% if they hit you from zero.
VS Dair camping
When a MK first starts dair camping pay attention to their game.
-Are they trying to hit you/your shield with the dairs? If so Utilt to remind him that you have gay stuff too, but keep in mind he may later try to bait utilts and punish with tornado. You can simply strafe back and forth with a grenade in hard to avoid dairs as well.
-What do they do when they're low on/run out of jumps? Do they tornado? Do they tornado and bait an Utilt? Do they airdodge to the ground/dimensional cape/falling Fair? All these become important punishments in the long run of the game.
-If you don't feel comfortable dairing the tornado use reverse grab instead, it's safer and can still lead to big punishments from Dthrow. If you don't feel comfortable tech chasing you don't have to, Snake's throws do enough damage by themselves.
-Pay attention to their ground approaches. Do they run jump and nado? Do they dashgrab? Do they dash shield? Dash sidestep? How much of a risk they're willing to take on approach is very important. Reverse grab beats everything but Nado and dash sidestep. Shielding will beat dash sidestep and tornado.
Most MKs actually have a pretty simple mix up game *cough*kaysizzle*cough* but it will force you to pay attention. Figure out early on if they approach with tornado or dashgrab more often and what they resort to when it stops working. Many MKs also run and forward air. Nade stepstep or shield beats this out nicely.
When you're in the air
-You can to mix your game up significantly here. Fastfalling reverse grenades is tricky for a lot of MKs to punish. Mix that up with fastfalled airdodges and bairs and you have yourself a cake. Also learning to C4 reverse will also add more depth to your game.
how do you guys deal with air camping, my thoughts atm
-cooked nades work if they're unattentive and are unable to count to 3
-throwing a nade at their hitboxes works if they just spam dair/fair
-aerials don't work if they space or use tornado
-getting underneath MK and pressuring him with mortars doesn't work because it takes too long to come out and only leaves you open.
-crawling into MK's area could work well as you could block any attempt at retribution on reaction. down side is that from this position he can easily retreat and reset the situation, any attempt at stopping him leaves snake open. rigging your side of the stage with mines and C4's before doing this may be a good idea but I don't think it's that hard for MK to avoid this. he could also potentially screw you over by landing behind you but I'm not sure who would have frame advantage in this situation
So I'm free to contribute today.
Here we go:
Snake V MK:
This 1 of 2 worse MUs for Snake. As soon as the match starts you want to have Grenades out. If you grenades out this lowers the possibility of Snake being juggled.
Most Snakes know this, but DO NOT APPROACH. Throw nades til' he approaches. Also, do not throw nades just because you think it's right. Use your nades to help keep you on the ground, Tech chase, Cook em' and then throw em' etc.
Yea, I know what I just said was stupid, because no "smart" MK will approach you. I mean everyone in a while MK willtryto make an opening; using his Five jumps, Aerials, and awesome Mach Nado. But I do not consider this "approaching"; "hitting Snake's shield and running away" is really "approaching". So what if he doesn't approach. Throw nades until he does, because at some point the MK will get hit by something. There is basically 2 parts to this MU I have to explain for you (the reader) to understand this MU.
On the Ground:
So if you manage to keep your self on the ground you'll be wanting to control the center of the stage. The further you are away from this edge the higher the possibility of Snake getting juggled. To rack damage on MK Snake will using the following:
-Tilts
-Nair (some do not like using this because it put Snake in the air)
-Grenades
-U-smash/D-smash
-Jab (only Jab 1)
-C4
-Throws (Tech Chase)
-Grab > Aerial Release > DACUS
-DACUS
-Side-b (even though no one uses it)
(I feel like I missed something)
In the Air:
Once this happens it can cause A LOT of trouble for Snake. If Snake's put in the air at very low percents do not expect to land until about 60-ish percent. MK willtry toput you in the air using the following:
-Aerials
-DA
-D-throwAny of his throws.
-Mach Nado
-Tilts
-Glide Atk.
-Pretty much any move
It's not all over if your put in the air, Snake has a good amount of option when in the air. Snake can use the following to help him land:
With a jump:
-When you high up; drop a C4 while falling, then jump and detonate it to "clear you land".
without a jump:
-Airdodge- yes, Airdodge...I mean itprobablymost likely will not work, but there is a possibility.
-Aerials- This may works, but I doubt it, because most MKs are tooo smart for this.
-B-reversal
-Wavebounce
-Pull out a grenade and just hold it while falling.
-Use Side-b and follow it down.
-If your offstage, then throw a nade and follow it's path to where it lands.
-Footstool- if you don't know how to do this your a scrub. GO LEARN!
Okay so that's pretty much how, the MU works.
Now for dealing with Certain moves:
Nado-
-Crouch, and wait til it's done and once it's finished go and punish.
-As soon you see MK approaching with it, use Utilt
-Tilt shield up and punish.
-Use a nade
D-air camping on Snake's Shield-
-Utilt OOS
-Drop shield and close throw a nade.
-Just wait with shield tilted up.
UP-B
-If MK uses his Glide Atk, just grab it.
-Possibly Utilt
-Jump>uair (usually a bad idea)
Killing MK:
-Grab > Aerial Release > DACUS
-Fresh Ftilt (this usually be when you come back from from losing a stock)
-Utilt
-Dtilt
-Aerials
Stages:
CP: Halberd, Lylat, Castle Siege
BAN: Brinstar, RC, Frigate, Delphino
My opinion is MK v. Snake is 60/40.
That the most I can think of right now.
I was on facebook earlier and because FB has priority over all other things going on when a friend send you a message I just lost all of my work! Because I was pressing backspace to erase something adn my friend sent me a message and it went back a page and I lost every thing!
i agree with everything above, but you forgot to mention platforms. camping behind one will make dealing with dair camping much easier, as he cant really hit you with landing (ps --> utilt). this is why im not too big on fd/sv anymore, although they can still work for different reasons. without platforms, i think it is the onus of the snake player to sort of build a 'wall' of sorts with potential explosives, which is actually relatively difficult to keep up for a long time. the namely utilizes nades, that are either exploding, or threating to explode around the area that mk could hit with a dair. since the area is pretty imaginary, and the explosions are timed, it actually takes a decent amount of skill to set this up. basically, with the wall, you are pushing him away from where he can hit you, forcing him to retreat or try something else.
this is old, but havent played mk on fd in a proper set in ages. he's normally very aerially campy, and you'll see how i make him feel like he can't do it anymore. mind you, i think we're both a lot better now. ignore the second match lol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXkShPU9uI4
oh, and only crouch when mk is almost out of jumps, and needing to come down.
no it's not 60:40. MK does slightly win but snake does fine in the matchup. I think it would be basically even if MK didn't have better stage counter picks but no where snake can take MK is equivalent to RC or brinstar
I think this matchup is even. Ive never seen anything that would suggest otherwise. Snake has options to deal with absolutely everything that MK can throw at him. Even gimps can be avoided mid gimp if you are simply willing to c4 yourself early. The only thing that i think tilts it in MKs favor is gimp potential, but even then dthrow on a platform is essentially the same thing, just alot harder to land.
I love snake on delfino and brinstar. Even though people tell me he's trash on those stages. :| I even cp delfino sometimes....=/. Some people just seem a bit narrow minded when it comes to snakes stages..
Honestly, this is coming from someone who only plays Snake so if im wrong tell me, but being good on a stage requires you to practice on it so you know what setups you can do, as well as what you can do with grenades, wheres good places for mines c4s, upsmashes, completely random things that snake can make alot happen with. If you dont practice on Cps (i definitely dont...and i should), you'll definitely play bad on them. I dont think that alot of the CPs are as bad as people think. Dont confuse that with "SNAKE OWNS ON ALL CPS"
I don't think snake is bad on delfino at all, I actually like that stage vs MK as snake myself... but brinstar? LOL
It still doesn't cover all options. An MK can dash at you then jump a Fair/Dair during your grenade grab attempt if you go for that, which if you're near the edge at low %, can put you in semi-bad situation. In general, I just don't think it's a smart idea to hang near the edge at low %'s against MK, because even if you have options to deal with the majority of MK's options, it's still easy to mess up one read, or get read, then punished.
Oh, and about the stages, I agree that Snake really has no "bad' stages. He has the tools to win on all of them if you learn them. Brinstar is great for hiding C4 and Mines, nades even, and Dthrow on platform setups, even though it can be a bad stage due to being a little small for Snake to comfortably move around on. It also depends on what matchups you're playing on stages like Brinstar, RC, and Delfino. It just comes down to how well the player learns it. I always ban RC, because it's my weakest CP right now, even though I believe Snake can do fine there, but also because I'm better on all the other CPs.
Fast Fall Dair out of shield? For what reason and why? I can't figure out why you would Dair, of all moves. If you just short hop it OOS, it can punish, but it's risky against people who know how to DI out of it or that can shield it, etc. Just ftilt instead IMO, or grab. I usually use Dair on sidestep spammers or predicting rolls.
Gonna have to disagree on you with some things my brother. I say its 55-45. FD I find a little more easier. True you can avoid some early gimps with an early c4, but it can go either way. You may put yourself in a worse position if the metaknight (dasbess) is ready. Snake does NOT have options for everything. MK has some safe set ups. MK can poke us and just run along with nado. The ones that camp and potentially try to time you out are the worst ones. Once they get the lead, it is just a game of catch. I've gotten better at the match up and feel comfortable with most metaknights but there are some that just know the safer set ups and that can run from snake which is dangerous. The moment you jump up and try to catch them, you're in danger. Just some random thoughts I'm posting atm. May post more later.
Edit: Oh, just thought of this. Even if snake does have an option for everything metaknight does, metaknight still has more than one option for everything snake does. Yall agree or no?
Lmao, well speaking of him, I had to play him in tourney on Sat. On SV, I barely lost. However, on FD, I'm pretty sure I 2 stocked him. I really think FD is an amazing stage Vs MK. The only thing MK really has against Snake here is punishing his landings, but it's not too bad if you're good at mixing it up. Then I was CPed to Delfino and barely lost that one too, but it was my fault for not having really learned Delfino too much, and still almost won the set. I played it safe for most of the matches, and it payed off. MK has a lot of setups, but you're still neglecting what Snake is capable of. So MK juggles you in the air from 0 to 30%. Dthrow him twice, even game. Ftilt after, you're in the lead. Or just hit him with a couple nades. Even a full fresh ftilt almost evens that out.
That said, I still believe it's an even matchup right now. Both chars can do nasty things to each other, and both chars can **** each other if the other does not know the matchup. IMO, whoever wins the first match probably wins the set if they both know the matchup. MK can ban Halberd vs you, but then you still have FD. You can ban RC or Brinstar against MK, but they still have the other.
Oh, and about timing out, he meant if the Snake is either in the lead or only a little behind. If you're an entire stock behind, you're in a little bit of trouble. But if not, you don't have to approach. You'd be surprised how easy it is for the MK to mess up a single dodge and get slammed with nades for it.
I agree with you guys concerning options in everything, but I'm talking about effort.
MK just requires shallow mixup game to win. Some MKs don't even have very good chase game in the matchup, they just rely on gimmicks like nadoing when you land and pulling you away from the grenade (obviously snake has options that beat this, I'm just talking about comparative effort).
Because MK is a better character he just has to think less to win, which is why I'd say the matchup is in MKs favor, even if not by that much. I think more of the problem is just snake players not knowing the matchup tbh which is why I feel that way.
Razer it's not about how many options, it's about how powerful those options are. If Snake predicts or guesses right, it's a crap ton of damage
you don't need to chase MK in the air when he dair camps, because as I have learned from playing Ally countless times, there are so many things you can do with grenades, especially on stages like Frigate or Castle Seige or Yoshi's with sloped surfaces you can bounce it at them covering a HUGE radius to hit MK on the ground or in the air
Getting a lead and camping is a good strategy except what if you got the lead then camped. Ally and myself and both done this to each other and it is just as effective either way. It's not easy to get a Snake when the Snake is expecting you to go at him cuz you have to.
I do not like poke because forward tilt beats it too often and too easily. It can be good sometimes but most of the time I don't think it is very good to challenge Snake on the ground he dominates there
I always saw Snake and Metaknight as polar opposites in the fact that MK requires a myriad of relatively easier reads while Snake needs like 3 decent ones. As jason said its the strength of the options Snake has versus the multitude of MKs. Playing with Tyrant all the time made me realize that. I mean seriously any dthrow string that ends with ftilt is almost half a stock gone. Nade to me are the most useful projectile in the game; theres always a way to utilize them in every situation. Ftilt will always do amazing damage, the one read gets you that guaranteed. And dthrow strings are Snakes few easy reads. This also is where Snake can just slaughter a characters stock.
With all that info id say MK has the advantage; but his sheer weight makes up for it. His character was made specifically to take punishment then take a stock in a second. As has been stated before Snake always has solid ground options. And im glad to hear Afro saying something about MK spacing u outside of ftilt range. I mean its common sense; if someone is right outside your range just walk forward. There is nothing in that amount of time that u shouldnt be able to react to. They space you then you **** up their spacing. Then you punish.
I too am tired of this invincible complex people have with MK. And I definitely dont want to see Snakes coming up with that mindset as he is one of the characters who has a very solid game vs MK. See MK as your equal, because as far as Im concerned, he is in this matchup.
im still gonna say its 55-45 snake...nado is the best thing mk has on snake and that is extremely punishable if u play right
heck look at ally vs m2k....m2k has practiced the snake mu more than anyone yet ally can still go even with him w/o practicing...its b/c snake outcamps mk and all of mk's approaches ARE punishable
lol.
When Snake isnt camping and MK is fighting
MU : 55-45 MK.
When Snake is camping and MK is fighting
MU 50-50
When Snake is camping and MK is camping
MU 55-45 MK.
When Snake is fighting and MK is camping/dodging/has the lead
MU 60-40 MK.
Disagreed? Call 1-800-146-326 thanks you.
