Colors for Each Occasion

Sky Pirate · Jun 15, 2009

Lately, I've been going through a general assessment of my skill as a player. The overall verdict seems to be something along the lines of "You have a loooooooong way to go." ^^;
Anyway, it bothered me that I didn't know which pikmin was best suited for each occasion, so I ventured out onto the scary internet. I remembered that Hilt made a thread a while back about pikmin colors, but I only found a thread by Denti that looked promising but died before anything useful was said.
</rant>

I am looking for the best and worst overall pikmin for each matchup, not just whichever pikmin is filtered out.
Please inject your opinions and provide reasons why you would make changes.

? = Uncertain

Sky Pirate · Jun 3, 2010

References:
Hilt - Most of the original list
-Vocal- - For the spanky-new chart and Pit colors
Geddan - Wolf Colors

My original list:
MetaKnight- B: Yellow?, Blue? W: Red?

Snake- B: Yellow?, Purple? W: ?
Diddy- B: ? W: ?
Falco- B: Yellow? W: ?
Ice Climbers- B: Purple, Blue? W: ?
Marth- B: ? W: ?
Wario- B: Yellow? W: ?

King DDD- B: White, ? W: ?
Pikachu- B: Yellow W: ?
Olimar- B: Purple W: Red?
Lucario- B: Purple,, White, ? W: Yellow
Mr. G&W- B: Yellow? W: ?

Pit- B: ? W: ?
Toon Link- B: Red?, Yellow? W: ?
Zero Suit Samus- B: Yellow? W: ?
Kirby- B: ? W: ?
ROB- B: ? W: ?

Donkey Kong- B: White, ? W: ?
Peach- B: Purple, ? W: Red?
Fox- B: ? W: ?
Luigi- B: Purples, Yellow? W: ?
Wolf- B: Yellow? W: ?

Sheik- B: ? W: ?
Squirtle- B: Blue? W: ?
Ivysaur- B: Red? W: ?
Charizard- B: Red W: ?
Sonic- B: ? W: ?
Ness- B: Yellow W: ?
Bowser- B: Red, White? W: ?

Lucas- B: W:
Ike- B: W:
Yoshi- B: W:
Mario- B: Red W: ?
Captain Falcon- B: ? W: ?
Samus- B: Red, Yellow W: ?
Jigglypuff- B: Blue? W: ?

Zelda- B: Yellow W: ?
Link- B: ? W: ?
Ganondorf- B: Blue W: ?

Today · Jun 4, 2010

This is Hilt.

MetaKnight- B: Purple, Yellow, BlueW: White

Obvious reasons. Whites aren't a problem because latch isn't a problem.

Snake- B: Purple, Blue, Red W: Yellow
Diddy- B: Purple W: ?
Falco- B: Yellow, BlueW:
Ice Climbers- B: Purple , BlueW: ?
Marth- B: Purple, Yellow W: White
Wario- B: ?W: ?

Yellows aren't good in the snake matchup, I'll oftentimes toss them away in the matchup, actually. Against Snake you want to focus on dealing as much damage as possible, as you kill him a good 50% later than he can kill you. Yellow's range doesn't help a whole lot in the matchup, since either snake is going to beat out your attack or he isn't, regardless of range. Falco gets grabbed a lot, so blues. Yellows are self explanatory for the Falco and Marth matchup. And I don't know much at all about Wario, but I'm assuming Yellow.

King DDD- B: White, Purple, Blue? W: ?
Pikachu- B: Yellow, Purple W: ?
Olimar- B: Yellow, Purple W: ?
Lucario- B: Blue, Purple , Red W: Yellow
Mr. G&W- B: Purple, Yellow W: ?

DDD does get ****ed by whites, other two should be self explanitory. Same with Pikachu. Olimar's yellow fsmash is the best move in the matchup. Lucario's reasons are the same as snake's. GW gets ****ed by aerials, Yellows and Reds for that reason. And Purples are obviously broken.

Pit- B: ? W: ?
Toon Link- B: Purple , White, Red W: ?
Zero Suit Samus- B: Purple , Yellow , Red W: ?
Kirby- B: Yellow, Purple , Blue W: White
ROB- B: White, Purple , Blue W: ?

Rob has a hard time getting pikmin off and has to completely stop what he's doing to get them off. Reds aren't that big of a deal against him. Purples **** him up. Toon Link gets messed up by Pikmin Toss, so Purples and Whites **** him up and force him out of camping. Red is obvious. Zero Suit is obvious. Kirby is obvious.

Donkey Kong- B: Purple , White W: ?
Peach- B: Purple , Yellow, Red W: ?
Fox- B: Purple, Yellow W: ?
Luigi- B: Yellow, Purple W: White
Wolf- B: ? W: ?

Purples knock peach out of the air. As do yellow aerials. Reds mess her up when you can find an opening. Donkey Kong is obvious. Fox is obvious. Luigi is obvious.

Sheik- B: Yellow, Purple , Blue W: White
Squirtle- B: Yellow W: ?
Ivysaur- B: Super Effective W: ?
Charizard- B: Purple W: ?
Sonic- B: Yellow W: ?
Ness- B: Yellow Purple W: ?
Bowser- B: ? W: ?

Sheik is obvious. Squirtle is obvious. Ivysaur is obvious. Charizard is obvious. Ivysaur is super effective. Sonic is O_o. Ness is obvious.

Lucas- B: Yellow W:
Ike- B: Purple, Blue W:
Yoshi- B: W:
Mario- B: Yellow, Purple RedW: ?
Captain Falcon- B: ? W: ?
Samus- B: ? W: ?
Jigglypuff- B: Purple , Yellow W: ?

Reds don't do much against Mario. Yellows do. Purples do. Both are obvious lol. Rest are all obvious.

Zelda- B: Yellow W: ?
Link- B: Purple , Yellow W: ?
Ganondorf- B: Purple , Yellow, White W: ?

Again, obvious.

The ones that were just yellows and purples I didn't give my opinion for because I expect you all already know lol. There ya go :D Glad to see this thread going, good stuff coud.

Sky Pirate · Jun 4, 2010

Oh my. So I'm not crazy for assuming that Yellow and Purple solve almost everything.
(Expected less Red and "Super Effective", though. XD)

Okay, reread it now that I'm well-rested and I only have one question.

"Marth- B: Yellow, BlueBlueRed W: White"

I understand the Yellow and Blue, but why would Reds be effective against him? His aerials beat out ours, no?

DtJ Hilt · Jun 7, 2010

In a range game, yes, Marth beats our aerials. However, we shouldn't try to beat marth's range with any color of pikmin, not even yellows. A lot of the time I find myself punishing Marth's lag, or his openings, with an aerial or a smash, as grabs will oftentimes be too slow to punish him.

However, I want to correct myself with what I put for Marth. Gonna change it to Purple, Yellow, and just White as the worst, because blues and reds are equally as good against him, and I have no idea what I was thinking the night I made my list and forgot purples.

Gonna go over my list tomorrow when I've had more sleep to correct any obvious mistakes I made.

Sky Pirate · Jun 9, 2010

Does anyone have any input on Pit, Wolf, or Yoshi? I almost never get to fight them. >_<

Geddan · Jun 11, 2010

the best colors for wolf would be the same for what hilt said about peach, for the same reasons. except i'd put yellows first, since wolf's approaches just tear though our pikmin, the extra range certainly helps. instead of reds, i'd say whites? wolf is going to try to approach from the air a lot so watching where he lands and the extra range from a white pivot grab is good.

who plays pit? and as for yoshi, i'm still trying to figure that out.

-Vocal- · Jun 11, 2010

For Pit, I'd would would say

B:Yellow, Purple, Blue W: White

Actually, this is the suggestion Hilt gave for MK, and for similar reasons. Purples are great in any matchup and it's a good idea to keep Pit out of your personal space. The extra range on yellows is also useful in the matchup (ex. outranging his dair) and the grab range on blues comes in handy (tip: if Pit does a grounded sideB, you can grab him out of it.) I would say that whites are the worst because every Pit I've played didn't have much of a problem getting latches off.

Sky Pirate · Jun 12, 2010

Geddan said:
the best colors for wolf would be the same for what hilt said about peach, for the same reasons. except i'd put yellows first, since wolf's approaches just tear though our pikmin, the extra range certainly helps. instead of reds, i'd say whites? wolf is going to try to approach from the air a lot so watching where he lands and the extra range from a white pivot grab is good.

who plays pit? and as for yoshi, i'm still trying to figure that out.

I understand the yellows and purples, but whites seem like a stretch. The difference in grab ranges between whites and blues was originally reported to be minuscule (I believe it was 1.40 tiles blue and 1.41 tiles white), yet blues do more overall damage and have more knockback.
Why wouldn't you use blues instead?

That said, does Wolf have any moves that easily remove pikmin without leaving himself in a significant amount of endlag?

And yeah, Yoshi is an enigma. D:

-Vocal- said:
For Pit, I'd would would say

B:Yellow, Purple, Blue W: White

Actually, this is the suggestion Hilt gave for MK, and for similar reasons. Purples are great in any matchup and it's a good idea to keep Pit out of your personal space. The extra range on yellows is also useful in the matchup (ex. outranging his dair) and the grab range on blues comes in handy (tip: if Pit does a grounded sideB, you can grab him out of it.) I would say that whites are the worst because every Pit I've played didn't have much of a problem getting latches off.

This makes sense. Nair is his primary pikmin detachment move, no? If so, does it have significant endlag?

-Vocal- · Jun 12, 2010

SkyCaptainCoud said:
This makes sense. Nair is his primary pikmin detachment move, no? If so, does it have significant endlag?

There's usually time to rush in for an upsmash or grab, though I'm still training myself to things like this reliably. Be careful, as if he lands before you react he can go nearly instantly into a jab to keep you out. Nair also has a good amount of landing lag (I'd say close to half a second) so if for some reason Pit lands after a nair then capitalize fully. As a side note, jab can also work for pikmin removal, as long as they aren't connected to his feet (and possibly back, not sure about that one though).

Hai Im Fearless · Jun 12, 2010

you can beat marths range with yellow fairs, actually

-Vocal- · Jun 12, 2010

Hai Im Fearless said:
you can beat marths range with yellow fairs, actually

You can if you're fearless; I, however, am very afraid of tipper range, and therefore shy away and wait for safer options

Sky Pirate · Jun 13, 2010

Updating Pit.
Still waiting for an explanation from Geddan. If the range advantage provided by blues and whites proves to be as small as it seems and range is the basis for the argument that said Pikmin should be used in the match-up, the whole white/blue argument will have to be throw out anyway.
Perhaps adding yellows and purples and waiting a while to add the white/blue would be better anyway.

If something I accept as true is incorrect, please correct me.

Sky Pirate · Jun 16, 2010

Spanky-new chart thanks to -Vocal-!
I demand that you all lavish him with praises.

The lack of Yoshi colors is bothering me. Input is needed.

1. I've been told that the Yoshi matchup is like fighting both Peach and Luigi.
Does this mean that purples and yellows maintain their effectiveness?

2. Are aerials effective against Yoshi?

3. Is he easy to grab? (I would guess "no" because he can grab us out of our grab and has those DJC shenanigans, but I never really play him)

4. Does he have a move to reliably remove whites? (Nair?)

Eh, sorry about the double-post. ^^;

EDIT: Squirtle Question: Squirtle receives a 10% reduction in knockback from Reds. Is this enough to make reds inferior to blues and whites against him?

DtJ Hilt · Jun 16, 2010

It's not that Yoshi is easy to grab, but you do have to grab him a lot when he's landing. Aerials aren't terribly effective against him. Also, Yellows are the best against Yoshi. The others don't matter as much. I suppose purples would be next, and then blues, with no color being ineffective against him, overall. I don't know how Yoshi removes pikmin (whites specifically) but it isn't done extremely easily, he doesn't have the best tools for it.

the 10% decrease against squirtle isn't that big of a deal. Whites are still the worst against him.

Also, double posts are fine if they're in two separate days, haha.

Dnyce · Jun 17, 2010

This is my personal opinion. It holds little merit but I hope my contribution is helpful.

Meta Knight- B: Purple

Snake- B: Purple Blue
Diddy Kong- B: Purple Yellow Red
Falco- B: Yellow
Ice Climbers- B: Purple
Marth- B: Purple Yellow
Wario- B: Purple Yellow

King DeDeDe- B: All
Pikachu- B: Purple Yellow
Olimar- B: Purple Yellow
Lucario- B: Blue Purple
Mr. Game&Watch- B: Purple Yellow

Pit- B: All
Toon Link- B: Purple
Zero Suit Samus- B: Purple Yellow Red
Kirby- B: Purple
ROB- B: Purple Red Yellow

Donkey Kong- B: Purple Yellow
Peach- B: Purple Yellow Red
Fox- B: Purple Blue
Luigi- B: Purple Blue
Wolf- B: Purple Yellow

Sheik- B: Purple
Squirtle- B: Purple Yellow
Ivysaur- B: Purple Red
Charizard- B: Purple White
Sonic- B: Purple Yellow Blue
Ness- B: Purple Yellow
Bowser- B: Purple White Yellow

Lucas- B: Purple Yellow Red
Ike- B: Purple Blue
Yoshi- B: Purple Blue
Mario- B: Purple Yellow Red
Captain Falcon- B: All
Samus- B: Purple Red Yellow
Jigglypuff- B: Purple

Zelda- B: Purple Yellow
Link- B: Purple
Ganondorf- B: Purple Yellow Blue

Sky Pirate · Jun 17, 2010

Hah, I like the Purple on everyone (except Falco).
I would have liked an explanation for everything that deviated from the current list, but that's a bit too much to ask all at once, I suppose.

A few things about your list really stuck out at me. Would you mind explaining these?
1. Red on ZSS.
2. No yellows on Luigi, blue on Luigi.
3. No yellows on Fox.
4. No red on Charizard.
5. Only purple on Metaknight.
6. Red on Lucas.
7. No yellows on Jigglypuff.
8. Red on Diddy.

His list did also point out a few things I forgot to ask Hilt about his list, too.
Would you mind explaining these, Hilt?
1. No Blue on Ganondorf
2. No Purple/Blue on Sonic
3. No Purple on Ness.
4. Don't reds stop Mario's Fireball approach?

There may be a few more. I'll scan through them again a little later.
I'm only asking you about a few right now because there so many discrepancies between your list and the original, DITE.
My apologies for asking about some that may be obvious. ^^;

Dnyce · Jun 17, 2010

SkyCaptainCoud said:
Hah, I like the Purple on everyone (except Falco).
I would have liked an explanation for everything that deviated from the current list, but that's a bit too much to ask all at once, I suppose.

A few things about your list really stuck out at me. Would you mind explaining these?
1. Red on ZSS.

1. There are some parts of Zero Suit Samus' side-special that only red-Pikmin can go through. I believe this to be invaluable in the match-up considering the game is largely determined by spacing.

SkyCaptainCoud said:
2. No yellows on Luigi, blue on Luigi.

2. I consider the Luigi match-up to be most effectively played on the ground. My goal is to grab Luigi where he lands or out of his approach and throw him away and off stage where he is easier to rack damage on. The only counter tactic to this I have encountered was playing Boss who reacted by shooting lots of fireballs to abuse Olimar's lack of grab armor.

SkyCaptainCoud said:
3. No yellows on Fox.

3. In my opinion it is played just like the Luigi match-up with the exception of being able to grab-combo him.

SkyCaptainCoud said:
4. No red on Charizard.

4. I don't understand how red-Pikmin are any different that yellow-Pikmin and blue-Pikmin in the situations in which you would use red-Pikmin. Perhaps you could explain?

SkyCaptainCoud said:
5. Only purple on Metaknight.

5. The objective of the list was to compile the best Pikmin for each match-up. I do not consider any other Pikmin to be equally as valuable in the match-up.

SkyCaptainCoud said:
6. Red on Lucas.

6. In my opinion, breaking through PK Fire with forward-smash is helpful in the match-up. Additionally they take the hits when latched and stay on.

SkyCaptainCoud said:
7. No yellows on Jigglypuff.

7. Unknown.

SkyCaptainCoud said:
8. Red on Diddy.

8. I believe there is a latch zone on Diddy that gimps his up-special. Perhaps I am mistaken, though I recall reading that moves with incendiary properties can set off the barrels. Since I have not experienced this for myself there is and understandable amount of error in logic.
I apologize for posting prematurely. In the future I will make certain my beliefs before discussing them.

It is entirely possible that I am completely wrong on all of this. Thank you for opening up discussion on discrepancies.

-Vocal- · Jun 17, 2010

My, what a dapper chart, whoever made that should be commended

lol jk, I am happy to see it up though. And thanks to everyone contributing the this thread, at the moment I only think about the best colors with a few characters, I'm sure this is going to help me quite a bit. I'd like to ditto a couple of Coud's questions, specifically the absence of reds for Mario and only purples for MK (aren't yellows useful as well?).

-Vocal- · Jun 17, 2010

DITE said:
5. The objective of the list was to compile the best Pikmin for each match-up. I do not consider any other Pikmin to be equally as valuable in the match-up.

Maybe this is just my opinion, but what about yellow pikmin? I've been saved by their extra range a couple times, specifically in using a uair while MK was ledgehogging.

EDIT: I just thought of a question actually. If MK initiates a tornado above you, is a yellow uair able to reach him?

Dnyce · Jun 17, 2010

-Vocal- said:
Maybe this is just my opinion, but what about yellow pikmin? I've been saved by their extra range a couple times, specifically in using a uair while MK was ledgehogging.

I believe the uses for yellow-Pikmin to be equally as valuable for the situations in which other Pikmin are needed for their cases. This is all my speculation however.

-Vocal- said:
EDIT: I just thought of a question actually. If MK initiates a tornado above you, is a yellow uair able to reach him?

Unfortunately, no.

-Vocal- · Jun 17, 2010

DITE said:
I believe the uses for yellow-Pikmin to be equally as valuable for the situations in which other Pikmin are needed for their cases. This is all my speculation however.

Unfortunately, no.

That's too bad about the nado, and if every other pikmin work I guess there's no reason to get attached to yellows. Thanks for the info.

Dnyce · Jun 17, 2010

-Vocal- said:
That's too bad about the nado, and if every other pikmin work I guess there's no reason to get attached to yellows. Thanks for the info.

Do not make a final decision so quickly. Both SkyCaptainCoud and Hilt have yellow-Pikmin as good for Meta Knight.

DtJ Hilt · Jun 17, 2010

Yellow Pikmin are incredible in the MK matchup. The fact that we can actually challenge him in the air with a yellow, and throw off his spacing, is incredible. Purples are probably better in the matchup, but the two are not far off.

Yellows dominate Luigi. More than Purples. One of Luigi's biggest flaw is being unable to beat disjoints, and yellows abuse this.

Reds beating PK fire isn't that big of a deal. Yellows are more important in every way in the matchup, as the majority of what the Lucas is going to be doing is Nair, Dair, and fighting up close, rather than trying to camp or space us with PK Fire, as it's not smart in the first place.

Yellows are slightly better than reds and blues in the jigglypuff matchup. Although, white's may be better than Yellows, in all honesty.

What Pikmin we use against Ganondorf doesn't matter, aside from purples. Him getting off whites would be an utter pain for him as well.

You're right, Coud, purples should be on Sonic. Then Yellows, then the rest don't matter so much. You're going to be landing more forward smashes than grabs on Sonic, so Blues aren't a huge deal.

You're right about Ness. Purples aren't nearly as big of a deal as Yellows, though. And yeah, I'll add red third on the list for Mario, as Red Fsmash going through his fireball approach does make a difference.

Going to update my chart soon.

Edit: I updated a good portion of my list, and added a few things I felt I missed adding when I created it.

Updated Characters: Meta Knight, King DDD, GW, ZSS, Rob, Fox, Charizard, Ness, Mario, Jigglypuff

Changes were made from either questions Coud asked, things that DITE put in his chart and post that I didn't realize, or me just noticing where I missed something lol

-Vocal- · Jun 17, 2010

Hilt said:
Yellow Pikmin are incredible in the MK matchup. The fact that we can actually challenge him in the air with a yellow, and throw off his spacing, is incredible. Purples are probably better in the matchup, but the two are not far off.

Yellows dominate Luigi. More than Purples. One of Luigi's biggest flaw is being unable to beat disjoints, and yellows abuse this.

Reds beating PK fire isn't that big of a deal. Yellows are more important in every way in the matchup, as the majority of what the Lucas is going to be doing is Nair, Dair, and fighting up close, rather than trying to camp or space us with PK Fire, as it's not smart in the first place.

Yellows are slightly better than reds and blues in the jigglypuff matchup. Although, white's may be better than Yellows, in all honesty.

What Pikmin we use against Ganondorf doesn't matter, aside from purples. Him getting off whites would be an utter pain for him as well.

You're right, Coud, purples should be on Sonic. Then Yellows, then the rest don't matter so much. You're going to be landing more forward smashes than grabs on Sonic, so Blues aren't a huge deal.

You're right about Ness. Purples aren't nearly as big of a deal as Yellows, though. And yeah, I'll add red third on the list for Mario, as Red Fsmash going through his fireball approach does make a difference.

Going to update my chart soon.

I long for the day when I can make analysis like this. Great as always.

Thought: would it be useful to start listing counterpick stages that provide a higher percentage of the preferred pikmin? This might not work for all characters, as I'm guessing that sometimes the stage that gives the best pikmin would be disadvantageous for other reasons, but it could be useful to have one quick reference to kill two birds with one stone. The information could just be taken from other places and placed with this information, of course.

DtJ Hilt · Jun 17, 2010

Thanks Vocal

We're going to do that in the stage thread soon, I'd like the two to threads to benefit from each other, which is why I'm glad this thread is up, haha. It has a lot to do with counterpicks so it'd be better to save that discussion for the other thread.

Sky Pirate · Jun 18, 2010

DITE said:
1. There are some parts of Zero Suit Samus' side-special that only red-Pikmin can go through. I believe this to be invaluable in the match-up considering the game is largely determined by spacing.

Huh. Didn't know that. Thank you!

DITE said:
2. I consider the Luigi match-up to be most effectively played on the ground. My goal is to grab Luigi where he lands or out of his approach and throw him away and off stage where he is easier to rack damage on. The only counter tactic to this I have encountered was playing Boss who reacted by shooting lots of fireballs to abuse Olimar's lack of grab armor.

I know Hilt already answered this one, but I would like to ask something else.
If there IS a counter tactic that makes this pikmin less useful, shouldn't we assume that all Luigi players can do this?
I mean, someone named Crash (I think) did a massive writeup on the Olimar matchup telling the Luigi mains to do this a while back.

DITE said:
4. I don't understand how red-Pikmin are any different that yellow-Pikmin and blue-Pikmin in the situations in which you would use red-Pikmin. Perhaps you could explain?

Well, they go through fire attacks. Charizard has a lot of those.
Ex. Instead of DIing in toward him when he uses Flamethrower, DIing away and Fsmashing through it gives you more space.
I've only played against Zigsta's Charizard, but from what I've seen you really don't want to be close to Charizard.
Am I wrong?

DITE said:
8. I believe there is a latch zone on Diddy that gimps his up-special. Perhaps I am mistaken, though I recall reading that moves with incendiary properties can set off the barrels. Since I have not experienced this for myself there is and understandable amount of error in logic.
I apologize for posting prematurely. In the future I will make certain my beliefs before discussing them.

My, what an interesting idea if this works. He would have to be below the stage with a pikmin latched on to him for this to work since he can recover with SideB if he isn't, correct?

I'll be a bit busy through Sunday, so I might be a little slower with questions, observations, and updates. ^^;

EDIT: If I may ask, Hilt, why did you take blues off of Fox and reds off of G&W?

Denti · Jun 18, 2010

This thread brings joy to dieing children

DtJ Hilt · Jun 18, 2010

Yeah, Crash is the Luigi I play all the time.

I took Reds off of Game and Watch because I couldn't think of why I originally put them on there. They're no better than the other colors against him, at least not noticeably. Same with Fox, I'm not sure why I originally put Blue on him. I don't have an extensive amount of experience in the Fox matchup at a high level, though, so I don't have the best voice on the matter.

As for the thing on Diddy, a gimmick shouldn't be enough to make one color better than the others. Especially since we have to assume too many things for the gimmick to work (he's too far away to use his Monkey Flip to get back on stage, but close enough for us to latch a Pikmin on. He's high enough for us to latch the Pikmin, but low enough so that he's not able Nair the Pikmin off, the Pikmin has to deal latch damage (intervals of 30 frames) before he releases the charge, etc) it's too situational.

Being able to go through Charizard's fire attacks with Red Pikmin isn't a huge deal. Flamethrower, and Fair are the only moves that it would make a difference. And we would have to make sure Charizard's hitbox doesn't hit Olimar and only hits the Pikmin, so, outside of Pikmin Toss, Fsmash is the only thing that would go through Flamethrower, and nothing noticeable would capitalize on Forward Air, as he's only going to use it when Olimar's in the air, and usually off stage. And messing up in trying to challenge Charizard's Fair off stage and getting hit means you just lost a stock, haha. Also, while it's irrelevant, you never wanna DI forward when Charizard's using Flamethrower :X It works on Bowser, but Charizard's Flamethrower's different. Always DI back.

Denti · Jun 18, 2010

blue and white pivot grab beats marth's tipper range. I like all blues and yellows because yellow f smash's disjointed hitbox outrages marth as well.

I think personally the fire pikmin are good against lucas and ness. Againat Ness the fire f smash threw the fire wall pk fire makes. Fire F smash also absorbs Lucas PK fire, it's really useful for predictable PK fires because you can approach and F smash.

Also because nothing is there for captain falcon I got to say fire, yellow and purple are probably the best.

Zigsta · Jun 19, 2010

Getting a red Pikmin or not doesn't really matter that much against Charizard. We're going to be using Flamethrower and fair to knock Pikmin away, if even that much. Charizard suffers big time if you just run away and side B spam. Just keep your distance, and Charizard will get damage racked up quickly on him.

But yeah, you definitely don't want to get close to Charizard. That's grab/Rock Smash territory.

Sky Pirate · Jun 19, 2010

(Caught a name-search? :3)

All right, then. Taking red off of Charizard.

Falcon seems hard because everything seems so effective against him.
I really don't think reds are that high, though. Isn't it easier to fight him from the ground?

EDIT: I'll update the chart soon.

-Vocal- · Jun 19, 2010

Falcon is a difficult one to figure out. The only time I can think of that a color specifically helped me is when I avoid a uair and manage to get a fair off with a yellow, but even that's not all too common/important.

Sky Pirate · Jun 22, 2010

I hate to disturb my perfect "404" post count, but the chart has been updated.
Please correct me if anything on there is incorrect.
A few more things I wanted to ask about:

Fino-
1. No reds on Snake

Hilt-
1. No Purple on Squirtle/Lucas/Zelda

Community in general-
1. What is the general opinion of reds against Ness?
It seems like something that might be more important than in the Lucas match-up because they create a standing pillar, but I've never played a good Ness.

That's about it right now.

Dnyce · Jun 22, 2010

SkyCaptainCoud said:
If there IS a counter tactic that makes this pikmin less useful, shouldn't we assume that all Luigi players can do this?

Yes, however the counter-tactic is that Luigi is forced into a pseudo-camp against Olimar. If you can run in your head what that looks like, it really evens the MU a bit, rather if forces him to do something we're better at momentarily.

SkyCaptainCoud said:
Fino-
1. No reds on Snake

Again, it's more a question the "most valuable" Pikmin. DITE is a bit too literal sometimes but I stand on my thoughts for the best Pikmin against Snake.

DtJ Hilt · Jun 22, 2010

Reds aren't a big deal against Ness. PK Fire isn't a problem. Fair, however, is.

Sky Pirate · Jun 22, 2010

vVv Fino said:
Yes, however the counter-tactic is that Luigi is forced into a pseudo-camp against Olimar. If you can run in your head what that looks like, it really evens the MU a bit, rather if forces him to do something we're better at momentarily.

I dislike running simulations without a sufficient amount of data.
If he does hit us with a Fireball, doesn't that leave us in a terribly disadvantageous position?

Jane · Jun 22, 2010

id say reds are definitely beneficial in the falcon matchup because when you latch a red it prevents them from raptor boosting.

Sky Pirate · Jun 22, 2010

Any color can do that.

Jane · Jun 22, 2010

well yeah, what i meant was raptor boosting cant get them off. ive played the falcon matchup quite a bit (not high level of course), and usually reds are a good color to have, even though essentially only two of his moves have a fire attribute.

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