[#02] Snake MU Discussion Thread 2010

Discuss...

oooh, we're on Snake. I have to leave for a bit, but I definitely wanna write something big on Snake, since he's one of my favorite MUs.

We need Smashking here now lol.
I think Snake is a big thread, he can force us to approach and outclasses us close range..
Baiting ftilts, and punishing between the two hits can work.
Or go DLA style and just spike ally 3 times on Frigate 8D

Told ya Orpheon's the best stage.

Throw those nades back at that ****er!

Tonsana said:

Throw those nades back at that ****er!

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QFT. Who says Ganon can't counter-camp? He just have to catch.

Grenade holding until it's about to blow isn't half hard.

Its called granade cooking. Granade pull > shiled > drop > up throw > z catch instant throw will do the job, as well as just holding it. They are one of the reasons Snake is so high, its not like "just throw them back", his camping game is not that bad lol.
On paper, it kind of looks very bad.

It's easy to grab Snakes when they pull out Nades inside the range of the Gerudo/grab range, and it doesn't hit Grenades. You must be quick with it though. It's easy to Ganoncide Snakes as well if they pull out Grenades too close to the edge, though a Snake who knows the matchup will not fall in those traps.

If we can get him to the air we can juggle him with Uair, something that we can't with MK, but Snake's tilts are pain to deal with when he spaces them because our OoS options suck (but I believe we can Dtilt OoS if they're unspaced), which combined with Grenades makes this matchup so hard in large stages. I find it impossible in Delfino cause I just get camped to death there. He can also grab release CG us to DA or Dthrow near the edge, and can gimp easily with the Bair, so prepare to DI like crazy offstage in case you get Baired. It may even stage spike so be careful, though it is pretty risky for Snake, it is a big threat if it hits.

Overall I think it is 25/75, depending on the size of the stage and the amount of plataforms. Hard but still easier than MK even though that ratio already sucks. We have hope if we get him to the air (like almost all matchups in Brawl with Snake) or get him to recover low (landing a Ftilt near the edge), but he lives so long he can survive a fresh grounded Dair at over 100% and he has long rolls with crazy damage input in Ftilt which is hard to punish while the Utilt kills us at 130% (having best DI possible) with crazy range and shield pushback and Grenades to have obstacles while we approach, cause we lack projectiles.

Snake is one of my favorite Match-ups. I like beating his ftilt with our dtilt, I like beating his ftilt with our dair, I like beating his ftilt with run away reverse SideB, I love beating his ftilt with powershield > grab/ ftilt.

Most Snake's nowadays only use ftilt to punish which it's godly at doing. He'll just camp and Dacus smartly while you're getting annoyed. Thankfully once we do get in his zone, we beat him in terms of options since he will only rely on jab, ftilt and pivot grab. He will not utilt you because he will save it for the kill.

If we have him recovering, we have a massive advantage on him. If we're the one's recovering, he gets the advantage. Snake can actually gimp us with bairs unlike he can do to other characters. Watch yourself and DI, and always press the shield button as soon as the bair hits you because it might hit you into the stage.

Grenades are not that big of a deal, there are no ways I can list what to do when he uses them since they have much variety to usage. Just play Snake a lot and Grenades become nothing to worry about that much.

Ganon's defensive options are great this match up. We can defensively use SH Dair, SH Uair Tipman, run away reverse Gerudo, SH bair, Dtilt, and a respectable pivot grab.

I'm not going to put too much into this, but from what I've experienced, fighting against Renegade in friendlies is, you must mixup the way you recover/return from the ledge, and Snake can duck under nearly every move we have.

Also, we want to get him off stage in this MU, severely.

Sovereign said:

I'm not going to put too much into this, but from what I've experienced, fighting against Renegade in friendlies is, you must mixup the way you recover/return from the ledge, and Snake can duck under nearly every move we have.

Also, we want to get him off stage in this MU, severely.

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DA and Dtilt always hits him and even put him in the air, use them when he ducks. But only the Pivot grab can grab a ducking Snake, Dair can't hit autocanceled and Ftilt/Jab don't hit. Still, I don't think the crouching is a real threat that affects much this matchup, Snake's Dtilt isn't that good and has no disjoints.

Snake can also dodge non angled fsmashes and dsmashes by ducking.

A Snake player that knows how to exploit Ganon's flaws is going to be murder on Ganon. It's not the grenade camping and explosives that are going to get him, though, as those can be avoided with not too much difficulty. It's the combination between Jab, Ftilt, and Dthrow. Dthrow especially neuters us, as he can either get a chain of consecutive Dthrows or else just use his tilts to give us completely unnecessary amounts of damage. Ganon's close-combat skills are balls at best, and a good Snake will abuse that and box you all day long. Then, of course, there's that 6-frame Utilt to finish Ganon off when he needs to.

The prime focus of this matchup is to keep out of Snake's boxing range which, thankfully, Ganon can do a decent job at. Snake's height allows Ganon to strike him with Nairs, Uairs, and Bairs, so make good use of these aerials when fighting Snake. If you can bait an Ftilt from Snake, you can Thunderstomp his sorry hide and proceed to mess him up. As said before, getting Snake offstage is a must, but keep in your mind how long Snake is vulnerable when he's in his cypher, because I've made the mistake of going for a kill thinking Snake is unprotected when he lets go of cypher and puts me in massive amounts of trouble.

Matchup-Ratio: 30-70 A hard battle, but completely manageable.

I remember that I played this Snake ones that just let me approach, Pivot Grabbed me whatever I did and then tech chased me to death... That 6 times in a row.. 3 Stocked twice lol.

^ This.
This happens. A lot.

I like using dtilt and side b vs snake, dtilt and uair are good for juggling and u can punish his airdodges if hes recoverying or landing after a juggle. side b can grab him out of cypher offstage, and if u get an early dair, or if he messes up I always go after him to footstool his down b recovery, which i also do if i grab him out of his cypher.

I approach by running up to him (w/o getting in his grab/tilt range) when hes camping w/grenades, ps the grenades, and roll back, u can punish him if he uses dacus, and he'll eventually do something to get away from u or attack u if u keep doing this and u can punish him if he rolls away or other stuff. u can also ps his dsmash if he uses it.

Be careful w/landing when being juggled bc of ganon's terrible landing lag, he can grab, ftilt, set off a c4 on the ground or some other stuff if u mess up, or air dodge early epecting a utitl if ur falling near him.


How do u get back on stage if hes spamming up b?

... If he's spamming up b? What? Then you climb up, because he's in the air. Why would a Snake be spamming cypher?

Snake's recover high sometimes, maybe he means that.
The flight of Ganon is actually useful here, expecially cause you can use the shorthop airdogde as a fakeout.
When you're close to him in the air at that point, I think his front is the best way to attack him. HIs fair is very limited, if he mispredicts with Bair he has a problem, and his Bair is pretty good and kills fast so high, so I would avoid the back.

The Bair hitbox is like his entire body except his head, and his body is actually more powerful than his legs ( I mean a more poweful sweetspot). Snakes don't use Fair unless it's offstage where you are trying to juggle so they may get a spike, they use Nair instead which has disjoints, much faster start-up (10 frames instead of 23), Multi-hit properties (SDI out of the Nair), with a powerful last kick and can be auto-canceled landing leaving the last Nair hitbox so it can hit Ganondorf on the ground.

Zcatch on the guy, and let **** ensue

or just play really defensively and hope he doesnt know the matchup too well

Supreme Dirt said:

... If he's spamming up b? What? Then you climb up, because he's in the air. Why would a Snake be spamming cypher?

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sry, i mean spamming usmash XP

God I love this matchup, possibly because most Snakes' knowledge of Ganon is "slow and bottom tier, time to **** lolol".

Most people don't realize how extremely fast a good Ganon can be.

I'm going to alert the Snake boards so that we can get opinions from both sides.

Thanks Noob. Forgot to do so.
Will try to sum up all that I think about this MU... I have a lot to say but just don't know how to put it up.

WHAT IS THIS I DON'T EVEN

This thread should just be sarcastic humor, there is NOTHING else you can do.
Maybe if you learn the "Now!" voice bite you can trick us into "wtf?" and then short hop dair around like a nancy-boy grandpa.

Remember Snake can mix-up his landing by grenade pivoting to get out of juggle. Just learn the Snake's habits with this technique and you'll be fine with the landing. Also Snakes will C4 recover early if they know they're in stomp range so if you want to rack some extra damage do a fake-out and get an extra 18% on him without even touching him. If he doesn't react to your fake-out... well just thunderstomp him [:

How do Ganon's deal with Mortardashing? I can't seem to cut it off consistently - either attacking too early or too late and getting hit, and sometimes even getting a jab or F-Tilt correctly timed and trading with Snake.

If you Gerudo it before it reaches you, it overpowers the dash, but you still take the DA damage.
Or you can powershield the DA hit and shieldgrab the USmash.

I just dair him because usmash isn't the fastest thing to come out.

^This can also be done.
I found out today that pivot grabbing his DACUS is very easy to do and it's very good. If you can do constantly, like me, please make use of it.

I like how Bahamut's "^This" posts always start on the next page.

My ^This is so manly and awesome it breaks the pages! >=(

Snake's Pivot Grab me.
I try to pivot grab them but our Grab Range is still crap.

Ganon's pivotgrab is good, it has enough range to pluck a Cpt Falcon nairing out of the sky (iirc).

It's just that Snake's pivotgrab is so much better lolololol.



I hate Snake, he ftilts my chokes and doesn't afraid of anything.

I try to throw grenades back but they start cooking their nades and that eats my shiedl as well as pressures me. They can ftilt like everything, so I try to bait the ftilt and go for the risky gerudo between the first and second hit.. Hoping to get them offstage with Flame Choke > Jab and try to gimp him.
If they recover high FoG can work. But smarter Snakes just pivot grab like everything, and stop falling for baits. Its annoying, and like normally with Ganon, the hits we do hurt, but its so hard to even get that one hit.

Gerudo between the two ftilt hits is just asking to get offstage.

Its possible. Just read the actual Ftilt and hit while its busy.
Its pretty stupid that out Ftilt and Dtilt and Usmash aren't disjointed and his Ftilt and Utilt are.
Its like a better Ganon with grenades =/
Its like I use Its a lot.

Just do this 3 times in a row: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkpekoGbwro

FINALLY GOT SOME TIME TO WRITE MY OPINION ON THIS!

Our best MU among the top tiers.

Snake can, and WILL, camp us to death with, probably, the best spacing options in the whole game. 'Nade camps, FTilts, Snake Dashing and other traps do score KOs with C4, Claymore and, of course, UTilts.

Our job here is simple: force a DACUS approach. This can be done by avoiding 'nades/throwing them back at Snake. If you take too much damage, Snake will not have reasons to approach, so be aware of that. I think a good amount of damage you can take is around 50%. If you take more than that, this strategy is ruinned. Once you piss the Snake off, he'll DACUS approach with almost 95% chance. Gerudo -> punish him. NOW you can start the match. Why would you want to start like this? This "teaches" Snake that he CAN'T approach us with DACUS or else he'll get punished hard. This makes our ground controle much easier.

Now that we have an afraid Snake playing, we can start approaching. I recommend SHBair. It's very good because it can go above FTilt's first hitbox and still hit Snake if perfectly spaced, wich is not that hard considering Snake's height. If he sticks to nade camping, Ganon's Glide Toss -> Gerudo can be good and can even link to the 'nade explosion in some cases (your port must be higher than his). Be aware of Snake's pivot grab, tho'. It outprioritizes Gerudo.

Not too much secrets here. We have to stick with keeping Snake afraid of approaching and racking % whenever we can and, somehow, deal with the camping. We should NOT be hasty fot he KO, however, since Snake can live longer than we can imagine. I like to save FAir AND FTilt for KOs in this MU. It works great, since it's shield safe and, even if it doesn't kill him, takes him offstage so we can FoG chase him, DAir spike him and all the other stuff we love. At very high %s, he won't be able to C4 recovery and THAT'S what we want most! He'll have to recovery high and then we can fly to the Win!

I don't even have to mention our big offstage advantage here.

But, if you're being *** handes, calm down. In this case, you should try to bait FTilting or other "laggy" moves and then DTilt him. Sweet DTilt has enough range to clash with the sweetspoted UTilt(!). Stick with this and Gerudo FUs to take back the % advantage. Beware of FTilts, so you don't mess your DI with crouching, tho'.

I would like to take Snake to Brinstar. Yes, Brinstar. Many people think it's Snake's stage, but I don't think so. The platforms, irregular ground and acid keeps him on air, where he sucks and we rock. It also takes out his 'nade camp and the Claymore planting, when the acid comes up. Snake dashing is rendered almost useless by those "blobs" in the main ground. The only thing we have to watch for is the UTilt. once we're cool with that, we can have advantage.

Avoid stages where he can camp like hell and keep the ground in his hands. FD, SV, BF, Halberd and other stages more... "neutral" favoritizes Snake. I recommend banning FD against him.

Moreso... 65:35 Snake's favor.