Marth's Match-Up Chart thread

As part of the Melee Match-Up Chart thread, I've created a thread for each character board to split up discussion. Currently the Melee chart is based on a collaborative opinion on each match-up, while we're going to slowly move towards spreading the discussion.

For now, the Melee Match-Up Chart will represent both sides of what the boards think, so for example, the Fox boards and the Falco boards will both have their respective opinions listed on the chart, so (for example) Fox may be 50:50, while Falco may be 55:45. This will be similar to Rajam's style for the current Brawl chart, which seems to be working well and staying accurate. Perhaps afterward, we can try to trim things down to one value for each match-up, but that will be a step in the future.

Currently, there is no order in which to discuss match-ups, but I may guide them if needed.

This topic is for Marth's match-ups. The format is the standard 0-100 (including 5s). Any opinions are helpful and appreciated, and once there's a consensus for a match-up, I'll add it to the match-up chart.

Thanks.

so I guess we should start from the top of the new tier.

I suggest:

Marth-Fox 50-50 (but I really think that Marth can't lose if played accurately, just my opinion though)
Marth-Falco 55-45 (Marth wins)
Marth-Puff 50-50 (If you are not Ken, definitely you can have a hard time, but if you play carefully, it' even if not 55-45 IMO)

Marth-Fox 50-50 (I know a lot of people think Marth wins but I can't let go of the opinion that this is even)
Marth-Falco 60-40
Marth-Puff ??-?? (frankly there haven't been enough high-level Marth-Puff for us to say. Especially recently. As it stands, with how we are playing and how the Puffs are playing--as in, how each character is deciding to approach the matchup, Puff wins 55-45 or maybe even 60-40. However, I think we are doing quite a few things wrong...)

I wanna elaborate but this is a conversation starter I suppose.

Marth-Fox 55-45
Marth-Falco 50-50
Marth-Puff 40-60
Marth-Sheik 35-65

@ Overlord and CrimsonBlur

What makes Marth do better vs Falco than vs Fox?

(a question, not disagreement)

Gustav Wind said:

@ Overlord and CrimsonBlur

What makes Marth do better vs Falco than vs Fox?

(a question, not disagreement)

Click to expand...

Marth-Fox 51-49

Marth-Falco 55-45 maybe(60-40 If you are really good at shield reflecting lasers)
reason why Marth does better vs Falco comes down to recovery. Fox has so much better recovery and do to his firewall it's harder to gimp him. For the most part if Falco is forced to use his UpB he should not make it back to the stage EVER! That combined with the fact that he can't Wave-Shine.

Marth vs Puff 45-55. IMO It's not that bad if you play the MU just as patient as your opponent. Simple is better vs puff. Attack only when you need to and look to kill puff with Tilts instead of smash attacks. Utilts kill puff easily. Also Uairs and even Fairs/Bairs eventually. The biggest problem with this Match up is Marths getting to aggressive.

Marth vs Sheik 40-60 Sheik vs Marth is what I call a taste of my own medicine. Sheik is to Marth what Marth is to everyone from mid tier and lower. A ****ING ******!.

sheik vs marth 57 43 sheik. (its not as bad as 40 60 but worse than 45 55).

marth puff: 53 47 marth. Its not mango's or hungrybox's fault that they are like at least 2 times better than everyone else. Marth has sword, jigglypuff has short leg enough said.

marth falcon 50 50.

marth vs everyone else 55+ 45-

no way Marth vs Puff is in Marth's favor if you know how to use puff. I'm not just talking Hungrybox and Mango either. Most people don't have the patience to learn the spacing game with Puff. However those with decent spacing combined with Puff's CC'ing options vs marth and gay *** rests, aerial movement, and DI potency have a really good chance of beating Marth.

It's like the Falcon vs Marth Match-up. It was unquestionably in Marth's Favor for the first 5 years of the games release. Then Isai beats Ken and suddenly everything was called into question. Later you got people like SS, Darkrain, Scar and others who started showing that if you use certain tactics of playing the Match-up is not only close some(M2K for example) believe it's in Falcon's favor.

The Puff vs Marth Match-up was once like 65-35 Marth has been undergoing some changes the past 3 1/2 years. Ever since King showed you could do well and use Rest to punish certain moves vs Marth and later Mango taking that Knowledge and using it to beat Mew2King in Pound3 pools I'd say based on results from then till now out off all the puff's that have played Marth in tournament it's been Puff getting the better of it. It's at BEST 50-50 if you are perfect with Marth vs a good Puff. Even still against a better then good puff it's gonna be 55-45. If your not a Perfect Marth.....it's gonna be bad.

IMO...

marth falcon is 55-45 in marths favor at YS and FoD, 50-50 at BF, and 55-45 in falcons favor at FD and DL64.

marth samus is 70-30 in marths favor.

marth goes even with spacies

marth sheik is 65-35 (much like scars falcon vs spacies theory)

marth vs puff is 55-45 marth. marth players need to become more analytical.

marth vs doc is 65-35 in marths favor.

vs fox 50:50
vs falco 50:50
vs puff 55:45
vs sheik 45:55
vs peach 55:45
vs falcon 45:55
vs ICs 55:45
vs samus 60:40
vs ganon 60:40
vs doc 60:40
vs pikachu 65:35
vs mario 55:45
vs DK 65:35
vs luigi 70:30
vs link 60:40
vs zelda 60:40
vs mewtwo 65:35
vs roy 60:40
vs young link 65:35
vs g&w 65:35
vs yoshi 60:40
vs pichu 75:25
vs bowser 80:20
vs ness 80:20
vs kirby 65:35

Gustav Wind said:

@ Overlord and CrimsonBlur

What makes Marth do better vs Falco than vs Fox?

(a question, not disagreement)

Click to expand...

An experienced Marth can control all of Falco's options on any part of the stage. You can't say the same thing about Fox; Marth can only really control a Fox when Fox's back is against the ledge. Marth's counters to Falco's approaches are very, very good. Falco full jumps? Uair. Falco comes in with a dair? Lightshield shieldgrab (Marths lightshield ***** Falco; I honestly don't know why more Marths don't do it). Counter. DD grab. Retreating fair/nair. ****, even utilt trades and jab resets position. Falco's nair has similar counters (which means that Marth doesn't even have to predict if Falco will use one or the other like other characters) plus he can CC it into **** lol. If Falco even lasers within aerial range of Marth, Marth can choose to come in with a SH nair over low lasers or a dash attack under high ones. There are literally no solid approaches for Falco, and its not a 50/50 game either; for the most part, Falco's approaches are slow and deliberate so they can be reacted to. Falco really has to bait the **** out of Marth to win. And most of the baits are not solid as you might think...if a Falco baits a fair OOS from a Marth, he'll hit with his retreating laser but then Marth can waveland back; if Falco gets greedy and goes for the dair/nair he'll get grabbed lolz.

But can Falco camp Marth? Hell no. Other way around actually, at least on platform stages...and its not like Falco wants to take you to FD lol. Marths platform camp game is awesome against Falco. If a Falco is on the other side of the stage and Marth is on the platform, Marth can duck, avoiding the first full hop laser. Before Falco can land, Marth can drop, waveland, and be under Falco, putting Falco in **** position. If Falco tries to get under Marth to try to get him with a full-hop dair, he'll eat a drop fair quick.

And Marth's approaches? Solid as ****. Falco can't punish dtilts, DD grab, spaced nair, and delayed fair at all, or at least in the same way Marth can Falco's approaches. If Marth goes for an approach, and he spaces it, Falco is almost assuredly going to be in a **** position and not in a counterattack one.

Marth's anti-laser game is arguably the best there is...he has counter, fair OOS, an amazing WD, powershields, ****ing platforms, a great short hop/double jump...once a Marth realizes that lasers don't really do anything, I think he fairs much better in the MU. Ultimately, and I think this for every matchup, lasers get less and less useful the better the players get.

Falco's shield pressure, something that works so well against other characters, is a lot weaker against Marth. Marth can wait for the shine and WD OOS (to tip or DD grab) unless Falco shine-grabs or double shines. Retreating fair trades with dair, beats the double shine/shine-grabs, beats retreating nair...**** upB OOS and counter OOS **** too. Marth's OOS game is the best in the game, so its tough for a character like Falco who relies on shield pressure so much to deal with it.

The punishes are what really tip the favor to Marth though...Marth literally has to tap Falco to take a stock off. His combos are huge, and generally lead to a death move or effective death (edgeguarding). This is a big deal for a character which normally has to work for his kills. Falco, on the other hand, should never really get a combo bigger than 50% with proper DI. He can put Marth in awkward position floating in the air after that combo, but ultimately its not guaranteed **** like Marth's is. If Marth isn't in those types of positions (in neutral), hes actually **** hard to kill for Falco. Falco can't just get bairs against Marth. Fsmash is hard to link to other than through tech chase. Falco has to work that hard and then Marth just gimps him lol. Falco, probably more than any high tier, has a **** hard time edgeguarding Marth too. Its really not simple on Falco at all; Marth has many, many mixups. If Falco ****s it up, its a reversal situation and a gimp. And I think we all know how good Marth's edgeguarding is, especially on Falco.

I know I am making it sound like a bigger advantage for Marth than I think it is (I still think its winnable for Falco ffs, 55-45 or 60-40 aren't that bad), but I am just trying to go through the big points in Marth's favor. Ultimately, Marth wins, and I don't think there is too much of an argument the other way around. Marth's greatest weakness (killing) is removed against Falco, while Falco's greatest strengths (shield pressure and lasers) are minimized.

^ this, actually when I understood that lasers weren't a bid deal at all, Falco began my BEST match-up.


@ Sveet (and to everyone obviously):

vs fox 50:50
vs falco 50:50

- ok everyone here can agree that it's even against spacies. I still got the strong idea that Marth played well CAN'T lose against 'em, but that's ok, 50-50 is fine considering that will always be Falco/Fox that win against Marths.

vs puff 55:45

- I totally agree. I really think that lot of Marths play this MU poorly. Marth has the advantage if played right. Slight, but he got it.

vs sheik 45:55

- Yes, who says 60-40 in Sheik's favor doesn't know how to play her.

vs peach 55:45
vs falcon 45:55

- Nothing to say.

vs ICs 55:45

- I'd say 60-40.

vs samus 60:40
vs ganon 60:40

- I really do think it's even vs Ganon. At best 55-45, but 60-40 is over rating Marth in this MU.

vs doc 60:40
vs pikachu 65:35
vs mario 55:45

- Mario can't do ****, I'd say 60-40.

vs DK 65:35
vs luigi 70:30

- you can't say Luigi is 70-30 and Mewtwo 65-35. I'd switch.

vs link 60:40

- 55-45, it's fine for Link, and on FD it's even.

vs zelda 60:40

- Zelda worst MU, I'd say 65-35. Maybe 70-30.

vs mewtwo 65:35

- 70-30. Switched with Luigi.

vs roy 60:40
vs young link 65:35
vs g&w 65:35
vs yoshi 60:40
vs pichu 75:25
vs bowser 80:20
vs ness 80:20
vs kirby 65:35

- Fine. Actually Booza and Ness are as worse as Mewtwo against Marth. I think Marth is Mewtwo worst MU, so I'd perhaps say 80-20 for Mewtwo too.

Good points Overlord. Let me address what I can...

vs sheik 45:55

- Yes, who says 60-40 in Sheik's favor doesn't know how to play her.

Click to expand...

Hell yea man.

I'd say 60-40

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I can't argue either way. I always perferred to play fox vs ICs so I never got much experience, but from a little experience vs trail (1 game in tourney and a few friendlies) I got the feeling that there were definitely things ICs could do to threaten marth's zone and that his fsmash has really gay properties that lets it beat dtilt. I can see theoretically why marth has an advantage but my minimal experience hasn't shown how strong.

vs ganon 60:40

- I really do think it's even vs Ganon. At best 55-45, but 60-40 is over rating Marth in this MU.

Click to expand...

This is one I will argue forever. How I view the match-up, marth is defintely worse for ganon than fox is. As far as speed goes, ganon is as likely to catch a marth as he will catch a fox. The big difference is that marth has more range with less lag. As long as you don't try jumping at ganon, he can't double hit and he won't catch you. Simply run around dodging his attacks with your amazing dash dance and punishing with you sword and grab. Also, make sure you know how to edge guard the guy... he really has no options coming back if his tiny 2nd jump can't get him to the edge (which they have to try for, learning to dtilt them out of this is really useful). Oh yeah, he can't really threaten from the edge (SHFFAC nair will hit him the first frame the invincibility runs out) so he has really limited options and should never get neutral position back once he lost it.

Overall i'd say i feel like i made a mistake more if i got hit by ganon as marth instead of fox. At least vs fox, ganon can theoretically always have a trade option available.

vs mario 55:45

- Mario can't do ****, I'd say 60-40.

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Mario has more range than doc and doc doesn't have dthrow fair available against marth afaik. I was feeling generous when i typed the list so i gave mario a leg up on doc.

vs luigi 70:30

- you can't say Luigi is 70-30 and Mewtwo 65-35. I'd switch

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Luigi gets destroyed by marth, easily his worst match-up. Mewtwo has a similar burst WD to luigi, but has much more range to fight with and he can't be edge guarded, really.

vs link 60:40

- 55-45, it's fine for Link, and on FD it's even.

Click to expand...

I felt a little generous making this only 60:40. Link's nair OoS isn't nearly as effective vs marth. Marth should be putting pressure on link the whole time. Link really shouldn't get the chance to throw a boomerang. Think of it like the peach match-up: if you give her the room she wants she can pull turnips and start float traps but if you get all over her and dont give her the chance to pull a turnip or start her plans, she can't do ****. Only link has less speed out of shield and more lag on his rewarding moves (grab & upb). Falcomist vs Germ was a great match, but falcomist had no idea what he was doing. I'm pretty sure he had never played the match-up seriously (or thats how it looked from my end).

vs zelda 60:40

- Zelda worst MU, I'd say 65-35. Maybe 70-30.

Click to expand...

Cosmo says its 70-30 but i really doubt that. Marth's main shield "pressure" is just spacing outside the shield zone. Zelda can reach there with her foot. I suppose you could just back up even farther and let her roll away and just take your ground... But my personal experience against him makes me prefer fox in the matchup. Also note that tink doesn't go marth vs cosmo and beat cosmo twice at SSBO XLV (once in winners bracket and then in grand finals) with fox (vids on reneblade's channel gogogogo)

I think people are rating match-ups based on how they do vs their friends instead of how the character(at highest level) does vs another character(at highest level). I don't want to offend anyone by saying you aren't at the highest level or the person you played against isn't. Just something you need to think about.

What makes you guys think Marth is 60-40 vs Ganon?

Marth-Fox 50:50
Marth-Falco 55:45 or 50:50 if youre not good at PS
Marth-Falcon 50:50, stage dependant
Marth-Jiggs 45:55
Marth-Sheik 40:60

ganon i dont think is 60-40 for marth but i dont play enough ganons with marth lol

Well.. I'll wait until someone else posts something because I think it's 50-50.

Divinokage said:

Well.. I'll wait until someone else posts something because I think it's 50-50.

Click to expand...

I think it's 50-50 Maybe 55-45 Marth if you can play like M2K. If Ganon stopped Sandbagging and used his own sword it would be 90-10 Ganon.

Divinokage said:

Well.. I'll wait until someone else posts something because I think it's 50-50.

Click to expand...

I think it's 50-50 too

Sveet has explained his idea of 60:40 in its previous post, take a look :O


Responding to Spam Arrows:

it's obvious that all of us talk out of their own experience, but I do go to european tournaments and what I say is from ideas that I got playing the best mainers in Europe, and from what I saw in their matches against each other.

I certainly don't think Mario beats Marth 'cause my Mario ***** a friend of mine lol.

OverLord said:

I think it's 50-50 too

Sveet has explained his idea of 60:40 in its previous post, take a look :O


Responding to Spam Arrows:

it's obvious that all of us talk out of their own experience, but I do go to european tournaments and what I say is from ideas that I got playing the best mainers in Europe, and from what I saw in their matches against each other.

I certainly don't think Mario beats Marth 'cause my Mario ***** a friend of mine lol.

Click to expand...

I main'd Mario for over 3 years. I stopped when Green Mario did. He was my inspiration. I play Marth for awhile now and after playing both side of the Match I don't think Mario does that terrible against Marth. I'd say it's closer than 60-40 but not quite 55-45. If Mario gets inside Marth he can **** him up badly.

I respect your response though. From experiences Puff vs Marth is 90-10. Me getting ***** by Hbox when I wasn't that good means nothin though

as for Sheik vs Marth. How Many times do you see a Marth beat a sheik? Out of ever 10 random Matches you see Marth win maybe 2...perhaps 3. Usually Sheik wins. Some matches are closer then others.

what matches do you watch of marth vs sheik? the last time i saw the matchup played correctly was Azen in 06, and im not sure he lost to any sheik players. Oh right, kdj beat ken that one time 3-2.

Sveet said:

what matches do you watch of marth vs sheik? the last time i saw the matchup played correctly was Azen in 06, and im not sure he lost to any sheik players. Oh right, kdj beat ken that one time 3-2.

Click to expand...

your talking 06. I'm talking 010

ok, so discuss, it's interesting:

Marth IMO has a huge advantage against Mario. At least 65-35.

You said that if Mario gets inside Marth defense, he can ****. Yes, I agree.
The point is, Mario can't get inside Marth defense if Marth knows what to do. Really, he just can not. Marth can outspace him in the air and on the ground, and can combo him easier than mario can do on Marth.

Mario must be very careful, and bait something to punish. Other than this, he can't do much.
Essentially Marth just needs a good Fair spacing and it's almost done.

Luigi and Doc can do much more than Mario IMO. That's why I think Marth-Doc and Marth-Luigi are 60-40 and not worst.


about Sheik:

I really assure you that almost no one knows how to fight Sheik well.

Azen was great.
Strawhat Dahean is probably the best.
M2K used to suffer the MU but recently I saw that he did good.
BobMoney is clearly very good, and understood well what to do.
Neutroni (best finnish smasher) is MAD good in the macth-up.

In tournaments nowadays I just see Marth getting ***** by some random tilts.
No one knows that if you press DOWN you can CROUCH. They pretend to play aggressive without any sort of spacing.
And most important thing, everybody starts the match afraid of their opponent just because of their char.

Thinking this way is losing before playing.


It's the same when PC used to beat Ken. Everyone was thinking that Marth-Falco was in Falco advantage, then came M2K.

...and then came Dahean I say!

Match-up IMO is in slight advantage of Sheik, not more than 55-45. Match-ups must be done thinking of what characters can do and punish. Not from video of people playing randomly with no idea of what to do.


I'm sorry if it feels I am angry or stuff (I don't know LOL), just the way I talk xD.

Spam_arrows said:

I think people are rating match-ups based on how they do vs their friends instead of how the character(at highest level) does vs another character(at highest level). I don't want to offend anyone by saying you aren't at the highest level or the person you played against isn't. Just something you need to think about.

Click to expand...

Yea some people have some grossly skewed Marth optimism. How can Luigi vs Marth be 30-70 while at the same time Marth vs Sheik is 45-55? lol Marth vs Sheik is commonly considered the worst matchup among any combination of the top 5 characters. If you're playing PAL, I understand. If you're playing a terrible sheik, I understand. But if you've played a good sheik who methodically gays you, you know what I'm talking about.

Divinokage said:

Well.. I'll wait until someone else posts something because I think it's 50-50.

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I would say its marth's advantages for several reasons... but I'm not going to type a 1000 word essay like I normally do =P

First and foremost: dashdance + grab range. Marth can stay well out of ganon's range, and any time ganon extends one of his humongous hitboxes, it can be a free grab for marth. I mean, ganon's play is largely based on whiffed aerials, or so it seems if you ever watch any ganondorf. Ganondorf is trying to bait, etc, then throw out quick ftilts/jabs etc to catch the opponent when they think it's safe to come in. Marth's grab range can take advantage of that, for example, and just grab ganon's jab.

In general, the only solid answer ganon truly has to dashdance camping is staying on platforms, and being above marth is a terrible idea as I'm sure anyone would agree.

After marth gets a grab? He has a realllly easy tech chase on ganondorf... it's pathetically easy, if ganon techs it's easier than sheik on falcon. People don't abuse marth's full grab range... it's ridiculous. Additionally, marth's edgeguarding is superior to ganon's vs each other. If ganon is off the stage, marth can just jump off and reverse up-b ganon's downb, or simply dair ganon's up-b. You can even do this in a manner that ganondorf doesn't even get a chance to tech... it's sad. If ganondorf ever recovers vs marth (and isn't realllllly high in the air) and the ganon gets back, the marth messed up severely. Ganon's recovery is more straightforward than falco's, its just better at getting back from far distances.

Additionally, marth matches ganon's range in general, one of the main advantages ganon has over the rest of the cast. Marth spacing fairs (fullhopped and short hopped) is amazing vs ganondorf if done correctly, in addition to the dashdancing. In this matchup he's fighting a faster character with equal range, and a ridiculous dash dance. His combo game can be amazing vs ganon, and edgeguarding make's ganon's recovery look like a joke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YEtJl8wChQ#t=56m15s

That's not to show the matchup, necessarily, but rather the ease of edgeguarding. Rockcrock had a nice uair, but m2k's kills were so stupid easy in comparison.
Obviously I didn't address ganon's advantages, but you were curious as to why people say marth> ganon, and those are my personal reasons =D

I played good Sheiks that methodically gayed me, and played very good Sheiks that are better than the ones who gayed me (Amsah, Ice, Vincent, just to name few). And I still think it's 45-55.

And anyway, in NTSC is not so worse than PAL. Spike is underrated. It's 45-55 in both versions.

OverLord said:

And anyway, in NTSC is not so worse than PAL. Spike is underrated. It's 45-55 in both versions.

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You must be joking.

I know nothing about PAL so I will not speak on it.

-Sheik can survive almost all the ken combos you're going to get on her (at % where you can actually combo into it) it's better to reverse up B her. Besides that there are very few reliable dair setups in the matchup.

-Dthrow in NTSC underneath a platform is a half stock every single time.

I mean, you're basically saying Sheik's dthrow difference between the two versions is negligible, which is utterly insane.

it is negligible, watch Dahean.

In PAL Sheik can do gay things from grab anyway. It's a pain in the *** in both version.

I somewhat agree with Overlord (sheik is actually starting to be one of my favourite matchups lol). Though i still also think the matchup IS slightly worse in NTSC. Sheik will definetly benefit more from a better dthrow than marth will from his spike overall. You're going to get more percentages every match and earlier KOs almost every match with the better dhtrow. The spike will not help you as often.

I may not be *that* good, but i'd say it's pretty obvious that these characters aren't equally nerfed in PAL.

matchups IMO are more about positioning.

This is why even though Mario can wreck Marth up close him getting there is a risk that doesn't outweigh his reward. Mario has to be very cautious of when he goes and with what.
This is why its 6-4 for marth

now with Shiek, marth can position himself outside of shiek all day.
The keys advantage Shiek has over Marth are needles and down throw slap/upair etc at any percent.
I say this because...

Spacing: Goes to Marth. With better air mobility and disjointed hitboxes shiek must "call" marth on his spacing to get in. I'll it intelligent spacing.

Combos: Almost even Slight shiek, but only slight because down throw can kill at 70 with tipper upsmash and it creates edgeguard opportunities at mid pecents. Tilts are not a facotr vs a Marth that knows how to CC during move lag and shiek opportunities. You can CC Shiek until 60 percent and her jabs until high 90's. Tilts you can CC tech (its practical, not even hard) for a long time too.

Edgeguarding: Even. both are easily exploitable.

Projectiles:Shiek.

finishers:Shiek

I'm going to say it again because its important to this match up:You need to CC Shieks moves and not challenge her in situations up close(part of playing the match up)

Overall I think this match up is close but... on a big stage Shiek should win 6-4 because she can kil easier on a big stage and needle **** Marth.

Small stage...It's even probably. Marth just has a harder time resetting to neutral from in close, but then again so does shiek if she's in the air.

stage is a big factor in match ups IMO that isnt discussed enough.

But..the wack stages we all know who wins.

Final thoughts: Shiek over Marth- slight shiek on small stages
Shiek over Marth Big stages and wack stages 6-4

I think what overlord is insuitating is that Shiek is going to have the same kind of difficulty grabbing marth in both versions and tech chasing and comboing are kind of the same thing when it comes to grabs.

The big diff is shiek being able to get marth off the stage at a lower percent than in PAL.

I'd say the marth sheik and marth puff matchups are being played very wrong lately

Marth Puff is definitely 60 40 depending on the style of puff and marth. like a marth that spaces tilts like a god will beat out puff but if a puff knows how to space past that then it shouldn't be too bad.

But as of now its looking like the best marths can't outspace the best puffs. so 60 40 if its not mango/hbox/darc?
55-45 normally
and 40 60 vs hbox and mango

-Dart

Niko45 said:

Yea some people have some grossly skewed Marth optimism

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Yeah I see that Niko. I wanna be optimistic and say "hellz yea Marth ***** Sheik"...but its just not true. Especially in NTSC. Seems 40-60 to me low-end and 35-65 high-end. Its bad.

About Marth v. Puff...I think it would help if top Marths retreating faired more. Like...spammed it.

Marth out ranges sheik. Marth can combo sheik. Marth can edgeguard sheik.

Too many marths are butthurt about sheik being able to punish things of marth's that other characters can't. Get over it and adapt. The match-up isn't nearly as terrible as your lazy, *****ing *** wants to believe.

Since this matchup is basically even now, any of you guys wanna MM me?

sure i'll MM you whenever people are blessed enough to have us both in the same room. jk jk

i think you said you were not going to be able to make it to gsg2, well I'll see you Genesis for sure at the very least. We'll do battle then.

sheik marth could be even, if grabbing was banned.

OverLord said:

it is negligible, watch Dahean.

In PAL Sheik can do gay things from grab anyway. It's a pain in the *** in both version.

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I've watched just about every Dahean video I can find... I learned a ton watching him play sheik, and its why I consider myself good at the matchup now. I've beaten sheiks in tourney before. Dthrow into tech chase is way different from dthrow into autocombos or at higher %, dthrow into edgeguard/KO. It's not the same man. I guess I'll just have to respectfully strongly disagree.

Bob Money said:

Spacing: Goes to Marth. With better air mobility and disjointed hitboxes shiek must "call" marth on his spacing to get in. I'll it intelligent spacing.

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No doubt Marth has a bit of a spacing advantage, which is hampered by sheik's needle game. Neither character has an approach, and neither character is really eager to lag. You know that lots of Sheik's hitboxes are disjointed too, right?

Bob Money said:

Combos: Almost even Slight shiek, but only slight because down throw can kill at 70 with tipper upsmash and it creates edgeguard opportunities at mid pecents. Tilts are not a facotr vs a Marth that knows how to CC during move lag and shiek opportunities. You can CC Shiek until 60 percent and her jabs until high 90's. Tilts you can CC tech (its practical, not even hard) for a long time too.

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Slight sheik? Having a grab game which combos you at any % and autokills at high percents is quite luxurious. Marth has nothing of the sort, as from 0 he is already needing to make a read in order to combo from grab. CCing sheik really doesn't get you that far. Sheiks will **** you off CC techs, and on the flipside she can CC your moveset well beyond the 60s. Marth combos are like up throw up tilt from 0-20, then fair fair fair from 20-50, and then good luck after that. The windows for Marth to combo into an actual fsmash to set up an edgeguard are pretty specific for each combo, whereas, like I said, the window for sheik's combo game starts at 0 and ends in edgeguards. Then, more often then not, when you don't combo into a finisher, you're now going to deal with a high% uncomboable sheik which you will need to chip damage for a long time, giving the sheik tons of time to try to win a neutral position battle and catch up to you, or break open an even bigger lead if they're already ahead.

Bob Money said:

Edgeguarding: Even. both are easily exploitable.

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Even? Now, Marth HAS an edgeguard, no doubt, but on par with sheik's? How? What about Ledgedrop bair with an instant regrab of the ledge? Fsmashing over and over again is way less reliable and effective. Plus how about the ledge game. When Marth's on the ledge, he's still under a ton of pressure. When sheik is on the ledge, she stalls until she can get up.

Bob Money said:

I'm going to say it again because its important to this match up:You need to CC Shieks moves and not challenge her in situations up close(part of playing the match up)

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CCing sheik's what? Good sheiks aren't going to just throw out tilts and dash attacks. They're going to space fair/bair on you, run away and needle you, empty hop grab you, and ledge stall a lot.

I don't mean to say the matchup is impossible by any stretch but people need to come to terms when all the signs point to this being a very bad matchup.

Niko, that was a rather misinformed post, no offense at all. Bob money actually made a LOT of good points that you just sort of cast aside in your deconstruction of his post.

As for combo'ing... have you ever watched m2k combo a sheik? He gets more 0-death combos as marth against sheik than I've seen any sheik ever get against marth. It's about punishment disparity; sheik is scared to lose her jump. If she doesn't jump out of the combo, she could get combo'd unnecessarily, but if she jumps and marth catches her... sheik probably takes around 100% and is off the stage. Sure, sheik's combo'ing is more consistent, but she doesn't even have close to the potential to 0-death (as soon as marth gets to mid %s, DI up and behind sheik, then smash DI the next move away... she doesn't really have many good combos out of grab). She has consistent 2 and 3 hit combos, but rarely much more from a grab. According to your list of moves sheik uses (empty hop grab, fair, bair, needles) she's not going to be getting many combos other than when she grabs.

Edgeguard? Idk, tipper fsmashing sheik can be a pretty nice way to kill her, especially when she gives you multiple chances to do it. Also remember that sheik cannot sweetspot from below or an even level to the edge: she has to be above the ledge. If she's above the ledge, its relatively easy for marth to hold the edge, get up, and tipper her. If she's on level with the edge, marth can stand on the stage and just dtilt/fsmash her. On the ledge sheik is safe just stalling? What if marth is facing you, you're stalling, and all of a sudden he wavedashes towards you and turns around at the end of the wavedash (really easy to do with characters that have a long wavedash). What then? You've lost a stock stupidly. What if you realize what he's doing, and go onto the stage? He either gets a free combo, tipper, grab, or something. I don't know about you, but that doesn't sound safe to me.

CC'ing sheiks what? Sheik's are just going to space fair and bair, throw needles, and stall? What sheiks have you been watching? I've never seen a sheik limit it's game to that. The vast majority of sheik players often throw in ftilts and dtilts, dash attacks, and jabs. Even if they didn't, at low percents sheik's aerial game is CC grabbable anyway...

I don't mean to say the matchup is in marth's favor by any stretch but people need to come to terms when all the signs point to this being a not so bad matchup.

If Marths can now actually hit that tipper F-smash with a high degree of consistency for edgeguard then I'll concede that the matchup isn't that bad.

But I already know none of you can do it consistently

Combos made me laugh but I don't feel like articulating why.