Any and all differences that the 1.1 DR causes [WIP] Updated 10/24

Ripple · Oct 18, 2010

Global changes

Knockback

Big O said:
Basically most moves have 10% more knockback (as determined by the launch speed values from the results screen). That is basically the only difference between 1.0 Brawl and 1.1 Brawl. Some moves like certain jabs do less than 10% extra knockback (probably due to how weight bkb works).

Hitstun

Big O said:
saying that there is more hitstun leads to misunderstandings, so please read the next few lines carefully. Hitstun is proportional to knockback, so technically there is also 10% more hitstun. The amount of time before you can attack or air dodge out of tumble is still the same. The knockback to hitstun ratio is still the same. The only thing that really changes are the %'s that combos/cg's work (aside from the obvious changes to KO%'s).

What this means is existing combos/cg's only work at lower %'s than before (or don't work anymore) due to inducing tumble earlier. It also means that some moves that were too weak to properly link/combo can now do so at earlier %'s as well. In general grab based combo starters/cg's aren't as prominent (Wario Dthrow, Marth Fthrow, etc.) and moves like drills (Kirby, Fox, and Jiggs Dair) are more combo friendly as a result of the altered knockback.

Shields

Shield Stun/pressure/recoil/push are in NO WAY affected by this change. Anything that you may notice about an increase in sliding from a move hitting your shield is an illusion.

Frame Advantage changes

Attacks have better frame advantage on hit at 0% in 1.1 Brawl than in 1.0 Brawl. Basically after a certain knockback value is reached, the move's hitstun becomes attack cancelable and air dodge cancelable. Until the knockback reaches that point, moves have more frame advantage on hit in 1.1 Brawl than in 1.0 Brawl.

Put it all together and this is what you get

When you put all the "changes" together. you get brawl with the exact same physics BUT with the fallowing things being noticeable.

Chaingrabs

Chaingrabs now hardly work to the damage you are probably used to seeing. they either work 1/3 as well as they used to or, if you're lucky, they work 1/2 as well as they used to, sometimes they don't work at all.

Low % Safety
Like what the frame advantage part said, moves now have better frame advantage in 1.1 until it causes tumble. Which means that throwing an attack out at 0% at you're opponent is now safer by a couple of frames (if it hits). you do not have to rely on getting a grab first to start your ability to attack safely nor do you have to worry about a snake f-tilting you after you just did it to him but could not shield.

Multi hit moves

since multi hit moves now have more knockback they are easier to get hit out of. But some MAY still require SDI to get hit out of.

DEATH

Ripple · Oct 18, 2010

Character Specific Changes

-Characters that have an exploit on a certain other character that changes from 1.0 will be listed under the character that does the exploiting. I.E. Falco's chaingrab on everyone will be listed under Falco

vs.

d-Throw> D-throw> tumble
vs. :luigi:

NO REGRAB?
vs.

D-throw > D-throw > tumble
vs. :bowser:

D-throw x2 . D-throw > tumble
vs.

D-throw x2 > d-throw > tumble
vs. :diddykong: d-throw > d-throw > tumble
vs. :yoshi:

d-throw > d-throw > tumble
vs. :wario2: d-throw > d-throw > tumble
vs. :link:

d-throw > d-throw > tumble
vs.

Allied · Oct 18, 2010

1st, cool ;]

Budget Player Cadet_ · Oct 18, 2010

K, got two big ones for global changes:
-Attacks have more knockback
-Attacks have more histun

haters gonna hate

Jack Kieser · Oct 18, 2010

Don't forget to mention that ALL CHARACTERS are KO'ed earlier, so that everyone gets a buff to KO potential. An equal buff, BTW. Snake kills earlier, but so does Jiggs.

Flayl · Oct 18, 2010

Jack Kieser said:
Don't forget to mention that ALL CHARACTERS are KO'ed earlier, so that everyone gets a buff to KO potential. An equal buff, BTW. Snake kills earlier, but so does Jiggs.

It's more complicated than that, take it from soemone who messed around with killing %s of different characters and different attacks

EPsilon933 · Oct 18, 2010

I'd like to see the effects of stale moves in 1.1 compared to 1.0. How do we even accurately test it?

Ripple · Oct 18, 2010

RAWR I was wrong

Poltergust · Oct 18, 2010

Ripple, isn't that hitlag?

BSP · Oct 18, 2010

UsurperKingZant said:
I'd like to see the effects of stale moves in 1.1 compared to 1.0. How do we even accurately test it?

Not exactly sure how to accurately test stale moves, but 1.1 really helps characters like Sonic out with that problem. The KO power boost also helps his mediocre, slow and laggy smashes have some reward now.

I'll try to test some things when I get some time. Flow of the game feels faster to me btw.

Ripple · Oct 18, 2010

Poltergust said:
Ripple, isn't that hitlag?

~~hitlag is when the player who did the attacking freezes in place for a certain amount of frames~~

you're right actually. hitLAG is when BOTH players are frozen and SDI is possible. hitSTUN is when a character can not use any move while flying after getting hit.

~~NEITHER are increased in 1.1~~

sorry for the confusion, I mixed them up

Dicey · Oct 18, 2010

Tested, Ice Climbers can still chaingrab. In fact, it leaves more room for error. Makes no sense!

EPsilon933 · Oct 18, 2010

Dicey said:
Tested, Ice Climbers can still chaingrab. In fact, it leaves more room for error. Makes no sense!

Some throw animations are affected by character weights and the throw animation speeds up if the thrown character is lighter. Does the damage ratio affect character weights?

Dicey · Oct 18, 2010

Oh, right. Wasn't thinking straight. Doesn't seem like it affects their weight, just their knockback on moves. But it actually makes CGing easier with these guys, I think. Tested on multiple characters.

Also, they can finish them at much lower percents, due to increased knockback.

Edit: uggg, getting posts. I wanna be a rookie forever!

Ripple · Oct 18, 2010

Dicey said:
Oh, right. Wasn't thinking straight. Doesn't seem like it affects their weight, just their knockback on moves. But it actually makes CGing easier with these guys, I think. Tested on multiple characters.

Also, they can finish them at much lower percents, due to increased knockback.

Edit: uggg, getting posts. I wanna be a rookie forever!

hitstun and hitlag are not affected so it should be the EXACT SAME TIMING

Dicey · Oct 18, 2010

It increases the knockback of the throws, which changes the timing ever so slightly for a re-grab, good sir.

Same concept as higher percents = harder to CG.

Ripple · Oct 18, 2010

Dicey said:
It increases the knockback of the throws, which changes the timing ever so slightly for a re-grab, good sir.

Same concept as higher percents = harder to CG.

changing the % has no affect on the timing of a chaingrab for ICs. you regrab them before hitlag ends

Dicey · Oct 18, 2010

Just trying to help, sir! But if you say so!

Ripple · Oct 18, 2010

Dicey said:
Just trying to help, sir! But if you say so!

its fine. its good that you are testing

edit: so....... after re-reading the other thread it appears that I mixed the idea of hitstun being increased or not......I've been mixing up everything recently....

hitstun 10% increase
knockback 10% increase

Big O · Oct 18, 2010

Basically most moves have 10% more knockback (as determined by the launch speed values from the results screen). That is the only difference between 1.0 Brawl and 1.1 Brawl. Some moves like certain jabs do less than 10% extra knockback (probably due to how weight bkb works).

Just saying that there is more hitstun leads to misunderstandings, so please read the next few lines carefully. Hitstun is proportional to knockback, so technically there is also 10% more hitstun. The amount of time before you can attack or air dodge out of tumble is still the same. The knockback to hitstun ratio is still the same. The only thing that really changes are the %'s that combos/cg's work (aside from the obvious changes to KO%'s).

What this means is existing combos/cg's only work at lower %'s than before (or don't work anymore) due to inducing tumble earlier. It also means that some moves that were too weak to properly link/combo can now do so at earlier %'s as well. In general grab based combo starters/cg's aren't as prominent (Wario Dthrow, Marth Fthrow, etc.) and moves like drills (Kirby, Fox, and Jiggs Dair) are more combo friendly as a result of the altered knockback.

A2ZOMG · Oct 18, 2010

^best post. Should be copied to the OP.

Dicey · Oct 18, 2010

Big O with the fax.

Yep, Pika lost his fthrow CG. His buffered dthrow on fox was fixed a bit, also. He can get out at around mid 40's, it seems.

Sadly, ZSS can still dsmash him across a stage.

Spelt · Oct 18, 2010

10/10

would read again

Ripple · Oct 18, 2010

A2ZOMG said:
^best post. Should be copied to the OP.

way ahead of you.

UPDATED the first post.

if anyone has suggestions to make it look ******, go right ahead and say them

edit: I want to make sure on one more thing. Big O, can you tell me if you have better frame advantage on certain moves that don't knock an opponent over or into the animation in which you can air dodge.

i.e.

DK f-tilt's snake at 0% in 1.0 compared to 1.1.

or better yet, Fox's up tilt on snake in 1.0 compared to 1.1

I want to know if you have more frame advantage because of the distance it sends you or something else.

Matt07 · Oct 18, 2010

For character specific I believe Mario's d-air is SDI-able. I played a computer and it was able to get out of it.

Although I'm not 100% sure, as I can't test this against humans.

Big O · Oct 18, 2010

Yeah up until the point where a move induces tumble in 1.1 Brawl, it has more hitstun than it would in 1.0 Brawl. The catch is that there exists a window where a move induces tumble in 1.1 Brawl and not 1.0 Brawl. Once a move becomes strong enough it induces tumble, becomes DI'able, and they can attack or air dodge before hitstun ends (which makes it much worse for combos). Once a moves induces tumble in both versions, the few combos that exist are the same since the amount of time before they can air dodge or attack is the same for both.

To directly answer your questions Ripple, both DK's Ftilt and Fox's Utilt have better frame advantage on hit at 0% in 1.1 Brawl than in 1.0 Brawl. Basically after a certain knockback value is reached, the move's hitstun becomes attack cancelable and air dodge cancelable. Until the knockback reaches that point, moves have more frame advantage on hit in 1.1 Brawl than in 1.0 Brawl.

Ussi · Oct 19, 2010

Shield push, is this affected? It would make shield grabbing so much easier to avoid.

A2ZOMG · Oct 19, 2010

Matt07 said:
For character specific I believe Mario's d-air is SDI-able. I played a computer and it was able to get out of it.

Although I'm not 100% sure, as I can't test this against humans.

That's applicable to vBrawl actually, and it's possible to SDI Mario's SH D-air so that you hit the ground instead of going upwards. What I'm more curious about is if the hits properly link in 1.1 (technically Mario's D-air hits do not register a consecutive hit into the final hitbox).

NatP · Oct 19, 2010

One question: how are meteor smashes in 1.1? Are they exactly the same?

Ripple · Oct 19, 2010

NatP said:
One question: how are meteor smashes in 1.1? Are they exactly the same?

:sigh:

did you read the front page?

Dark 3nergy · Oct 19, 2010

again to repost to help the op

For DDDs Chain grab in 1.1;

Before reading the list consider a few things first.

First off some of the slides may be affected by the increased knock back. Timings for chain grabbing characters like Diddy Kong, Pit, Peach, Toon Link, Solo Popo might become slighty tighter. Beware, the characters listed above have the highest slides out of the Dthrow while still being CGable.

Secondly, for some characters that CANNOT be chain grabbed-- ftilt will not be a guaranteed follow up out of the dthrow. I wouldn't recommend ftilting non-CGables out of dthrow anyway as these can be pshielded on reaction.

For below;

Information listed in red means the character in question has changed in 1.1 as far as DDD chain grabbing him

Information listed in green means very little change has occurred. Possibly more knock back but not enough to disrupt the CG.

**Marth Cannot be CGed in 1.1 DR

******** Difficulty (3 Grabs Max):
**Luigi - Can still be wall infinited, doesnt fall over in 1.1DR after Dthrow

VERY HARD Difficulty (4 Grabs Max):
Diddy Kong
**Toon Link - Timing feels like it must be frame perfect.
Pit

HARD Difficulty (4-5 Grabs)
Peach
Ice Climbers (Solo Popo or SoPo)

AVERAGE Difficulty (5-6 Grabs)
Mario
Yoshi
Wario
Link
Gannondorf
Samus
R.O.B.
King Dedede
Wolf
Captain Falcon
Ivysaur
Charizard
Lucario
Ike
Ness
Lucas
Snake
Sonic

VERY EASY Difficulty (6+ Grabs!)
Bowser
Donkey Kong

AvariceX · Oct 19, 2010

How does this affect jab lock combos?

Also, wishful thinking but does this in any way affect grab release shenanigans aside from the followups killing earlier? (I can't imagine this possible affecting GR since a GR well...isn't a move, but one can dream).

edit: I would gladly test but my wii is dead =(

Ripple · Oct 19, 2010

AvariceX said:
How does this affect jab lock combos?

Also, wishful thinking but does this in any way affect grab release shenanigans aside from the followups killing earlier? (I can't imagine this possible affecting GR since a GR well...isn't a move, but one can dream).

edit: I would gladly test but my wii is dead =(

jab locks do not seem to be changed. but their might be a character that can't use a move to jab lock anymore.

no, GR are in no way changed. they have to deal with animation

Jack Kieser · Oct 19, 2010

So, wait, is Dark 3nergy saying that the change to 1.1 doesn't actually eliminate the D3 CG? In fact, it doesn't even put that big of a dent in it?

Ussi · Oct 20, 2010

If shield push is increased then landing the grab itself will change.

Big O · Oct 20, 2010

Ripple said:
I make this one big because this is probably the one that you'll notice most of all and may change how characters play. you may think that with a 10% increase to knockback you will die 10% earlier but NO. You actually die 20% earlier than you normally would. and this IS NOT 20 in game %. it is 20% of you're former max %. i.e. Lucas' d-throw kills snake at exactly 200% in 1.0 but in 1.1 it kills snake at 160%. 40 in game % but 20% of 200% is 40%

I just wanted to point out that this isn't true for all attacks. How much earlier it kills in 1.1 depends on how much base knockback the move has. Moves with no base knockback do kill 10% earlier. For example a move that kills at 100% (the 100% being the damage after the attack and not before) in 1.0 Brawl kills at about 90% in 1.1 Brawl. Moves with base knockback kill more than 10% earlier depending on how much base knockback the move has.

Say you have 2 kill moves A and B. They both kill at 120% in 1.0 Brawl, but B has base knockback while A does not. In 1.1 Brawl A will kill sooner than B. So basically there really isn't a quick way to know exactly how much earlier a move KO's in 1.1 Brawl than in 1.0 Brawl. KO moves like shuttle loop KO get buffed more than KO moves like MK Nair with little/no base knockback. In 1.1 Brawl shuttle loop kills earliest followed by Dsmash and Nair. In 1.0 Brawl shuttle loop kills last and Nair kills the earliest.

Basically the best way to find out new kill %'s is to do it the old-fashioned way.

Edit: @Ussi there is no extra shield push in 1.1 Brawl.

Ripple · Oct 20, 2010

Jack Kieser said:
So, wait, is Dark 3nergy saying that the change to 1.1 doesn't actually eliminate the D3 CG? In fact, it doesn't even put that big of a dent in it?

well, his chaingrab has a set knockback in each DR version. looks like 10% added on to that fixed ratio doesn't do much to the cast except for marth and luigi

Ussi said:
If shield push is increased then landing the grab itself will change.

DOES ANYONE READ THE FRONT PAGE???

Flayl · Oct 20, 2010

Ripple could you stop putting conjecture on the first post?

Ripple · Oct 20, 2010

Flayl said:
Ripple could you stop putting conjecture on the first post?

thnkaman confirmed it for me, but I guess we were wrong. I did not intend for that to happen. I do not have access to frame data, he does

Dark 3nergy · Oct 20, 2010

Jack Kieser said:
So, wait, is Dark 3nergy saying that the change to 1.1 doesn't actually eliminate the D3 CG? In fact, it doesn't even put that big of a dent in it?

this is correct. The most notable changes i personally saw were with TL/Marth and some Non-CGs sliding abit farther.

When you consider his more worse MUs from 1.0; characters like pikachu would become mostly evenish, falco slight disadvantage, olimar slight disadvantage, and IC/MK would still be a solid disadvantage given on a few factors for these mus. Namely it depends on how 1.1 mach tornado works, and how much better? did DDDs options have become for separating nana/popo.

Aside from his bad mus, i think DDDs even mus still remain solidly even. While DDD loses the ability to CG marth, marth loses the ability to CG>tipper fthrow us from 0%.

Any and all differences that the 1.1 DR causes [WIP] Updated 10/24

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