NH Cody
Smash Champion
Toon Link Matchup Rediscussion: Olimar
Discuss.
I think 55-45 Olimar's favor.
Discuss.
I think 55-45 Olimar's favor.
-
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Toon Link Matchup Rediscussion: Olimar
- Thread starter NH Cody
- Start date
MJG
Smash Hero
If you space your nairs REALLY well, they cannot punish you.
Oh and Nair>Arrow.
Oh and Nair>Arrow.
Zori
Smash Champion
eveeeeeeeeennnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
~TLK~
Smash Journeyman
60-40 imo....this matchup is HARD
you can not play this matchup like you can play your others to a lot of extents. Olimar out-camps you, period. Far too many pikmin make it impossible to hit him with anything except upclose. But then again, he destroys you upclose too for the most part. Retreating nairs with arrow cancel is like turning dust into gold in this matchup its so good. as long as you attack with every attention of retreat and follow up with arrow cancels when nessesary it is almost non punishable. You have to watch out for those purple pikmin as they dont latch but instead hurt because good olimars will always have one there so that you cant just rush through the pikmin spam most of the time. You have to play him close but not TOO close. and I cannot stress enough that you cannot lose focus of the greater focus in this match for even a second. Let things go and olimar can WRECK YOU. Get him off the stage and gimp him if you can. Oli can be bomb-camped to some extent with full hops but that can be kind of tricky.
tl;dr
dont let him camp, put the right pressure on him and go for that kill when you have the chance because you wont have many.
EDIT: I hope you guys were looking for length. My little brother mains olimar so I have a lot to say on this character lol.
you can not play this matchup like you can play your others to a lot of extents. Olimar out-camps you, period. Far too many pikmin make it impossible to hit him with anything except upclose. But then again, he destroys you upclose too for the most part. Retreating nairs with arrow cancel is like turning dust into gold in this matchup its so good. as long as you attack with every attention of retreat and follow up with arrow cancels when nessesary it is almost non punishable. You have to watch out for those purple pikmin as they dont latch but instead hurt because good olimars will always have one there so that you cant just rush through the pikmin spam most of the time. You have to play him close but not TOO close. and I cannot stress enough that you cannot lose focus of the greater focus in this match for even a second. Let things go and olimar can WRECK YOU. Get him off the stage and gimp him if you can. Oli can be bomb-camped to some extent with full hops but that can be kind of tricky.
tl;dr
dont let him camp, put the right pressure on him and go for that kill when you have the chance because you wont have many.
EDIT: I hope you guys were looking for length. My little brother mains olimar so I have a lot to say on this character lol.
NH Cody
Smash Champion
But he's not as hard as 60-40...really, you can camp him, and you can bair chain him at low %s, and once you get him in the air he's pretty easy I think.
But you're right about most of the other stuff I would say. You never know when he's going to hyphen or grab straight through his wall of BS, out of nowhere, so it's easier for him to get the kill ._.
But you're right about most of the other stuff I would say. You never know when he's going to hyphen or grab straight through his wall of BS, out of nowhere, so it's easier for him to get the kill ._.
~TLK~
Smash Journeyman
usually im a good player but not smart on paper but this is probrobly the only matchup i really know how to put my knowledge into words xD.
Sounds like a texas-olimar problem.
Uhh... match-up
TL: Fullhop Nair (spaced well), arrow, zair (spaced well), down-smash purple pikmin, don't throw hard-throw rang for edge guarding
Oli: run away a lot, throw Pikmin, pshield approach TL's landings (punish with c-stick), avoid ****, usmash oos TL's nairs (aerials safe if TL isn't holding a bomb), yellow/red fsmash TL's zairs, use returning boomerang to help recovery, weed out Pikmin for Purples. Don't jump when in ko%.Don't use grab unless it's guaranteed or they stop using quick draws, I've grabbed more **** than TLs <.<
Ban: Stages with high purple or yellow rate or stage with low ceiling (like rainbow cruise if your name is hyro, jerm, or MJG ;o //troll) .
Hyro
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2008
- Messages
- 1,386
haha im jk, but i would say jerm knows this matchup too good now so yall should do what he says. i think he says full hop/double jump your bombs. Always be ready to nair to get the pikmin off of you immediatley so that when you have the lead olimar DOES have to approach etc etc
MJG
Smash Hero
Short hop nair works if you space it really well.
I promise.
Fino and Jerm should MM at MLG Dallas
EDIT: And wtf hyro. You told all of us about full hop nair before any of us did it lol.
EDIT2: Nvm. Didn't see the bomb thing. I did that last time I played fino.
Olimar sucks.
I promise.
Fino and Jerm should MM at MLG Dallas
EDIT: And wtf hyro. You told all of us about full hop nair before any of us did it lol.
EDIT2: Nvm. Didn't see the bomb thing. I did that last time I played fino.
Olimar sucks.
Thebest1pj
Pinnacle of Projectile Placement.
he only beats denti though.
G-Dub
Smash Journeyman
I think i can speak for everyone who doesn't main olimar when i say **** olimar and **** pikmin. TL will NOT outcamp olimar, will NOT kill faster than olimar, and will NOT have fun in this match. Pikmin stop bombs from being effective, and eat arrows and boomerangs. The only time i have had success against olimar is when i stay inside his camping range for the entire duration of the match, and make no mistakes. If TL can get him offstage then we can use projectiles effectively and get a fairly easy kill, but olimar is not defenceless in the air as his Fair is quite fast. On the ground he is very hard to approach, and once inside, you have to stay there and rack up damage fast. And dont get hit by that broken USmash.
60-40 olimar.
60-40 olimar.
L
Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. Also, i dunno if Jerm knew this before, but I definitely told him something close to that (cause I was theory craftin with MJ) at Apex before he played Brood, looks like he perfected the idea
And adding on what hyro said, that works incredibly well for awhile... but don't make that your primary strategy. Whenever I start to see MJ do that to me I make sure everything but purples get near him (purple Pikmin toss beats nair) and indulge in him thinking he's keeping the lead on me while I stock up on the pikmin I need w/o being obvious. Though, sometimes MJ catches on and tries to dsmash my purples, lol... <.<
I also just beat john. And was 1-1 with zori in our last set, but we didnt finish it.
Also, I think my way of playing this match up might be wrong lol. So dont take what I say to heart. But I do know some tricks when fighting for fighting olimar, like hyro said, double jump bomb and ibombing allows us to use bombs in this match up. Also, just standing in place and jabbing is a good way to get pikman shii off you.
About full hop nair vs SH nair, I think that they both work. Nair is pretty much your best friend with those ****** *** **** mother****in olimar **** whores =]
Thebest1pj
Pinnacle of Projectile Placement.
but jon(who only plays wifi) put you into losers as did zori. I'm not trying to be mean or a douch just saying denti sucks against tl i housed him for hobo 28 i know. NOW L_cancel? fuggin **** all of our ****
MJG
Smash Hero
Wait...I thought you lost to Jon at that monsters arcade BS or w/e it was called..?
lol
lol
L_Cancel
Smash Champion
I lost to him in winners, 2-1, then beat him 3-1 in losers.
@ ShdwPeeNoob I've always lost to zori, but the last time we played when he put me in losers and I later played him in GFs and learned alot about the match up . We went 1-1(didnt finish). And now I have a pretty positive record against denti. He's only beaten me once while Ive beaten him at least four times. Im not great at the match up, but I think ive learned enough to solidly fight the match up
Thebest1pj
Pinnacle of Projectile Placement.
I was there lol im just trying to make sure we know how to beat olimar the right way. denti doesnt count-
fino
jash
dabuz
hilt
quivo
chip
weroup
dmac
namesearch
MJG
Smash Hero
The olimar's that probably know the MU best would be Fino, L Cancel and Dabuz.
Those would be the people to get input from.
But to touch on what was already said, spacing nair is key. It doesn't matter what little strings you pull together throughout the rest of the match if you do not space your nair.
Space it. SPACE IT!
kthxbai
Those would be the people to get input from.
But to touch on what was already said, spacing nair is key. It doesn't matter what little strings you pull together throughout the rest of the match if you do not space your nair.
Space it. SPACE IT!
kthxbai
Thebest1pj
Pinnacle of Projectile Placement.
weroup plays chip, L and dabuz be losin to links (smirk)
Dabuz
Fraud at Smash
name one link or toonlink i have lost to besides in friendlies or laggy wifi...go ahead
sidenote though, i haven't fought a good toonlink in about 3 or so months, so i might not be current with the toonlink metagame or mu anymore .-.
L_Cancel
Smash Champion
Pj stays trolling. lol
Thebest1pj
Pinnacle of Projectile Placement.
That was just to get you into the thread now lets hear your thoughts ^_^
also i named tl plus the olis they fought so they could name search and help with the discussion
Dabuz
Fraud at Smash
PJ...you have +10 respect points, now, on to the MU
~~dabuz
Basics:
olimar's pros:
kills early
easily racks up damage
can compete with toonlink's air game
outcamps toonlink, makes bombs useless
prevents toonlink from getting in easily
has little problems shaking off toonlink
olimar's cons:
gets dsmashed gimped at less than 32% when not near middle of stage
lacks reliable way to deal with spaced zair
in order to outcamp toonlink, olimar puts himself in bad positions (pikminless, high up in air, too close to edge)
massive difficulty landing a kill
ratio: 60-40 or 55-45 olimar IMO, with the advent of olimar's JC US OOS, the previous problem of olimar being unable to punish toonlink hitting olimar's shield with spaced aerials is no longer a problem (zair is still probably an exception)
how olimar should play:
CAMP AND STAGE CONTROL: thats it, olimar has no aggro game on toonlink due to his high priority and equally effective camping game, olimar needs to camp and force toonlink to either camp just as good or make smart openings with projectiles
olimar at low percents: (~40) olimar can easily lose a stock due to dsmash, smart olimars will avoid that at all costs, making him very likely to shield abnormally long, setting up toonlink for grabs then good bair wall or W/E else you guys have as follow-ups. Also zair combos work nicely at this percent.
olimar at mid percents: (40%-105%) this is a moderately bad spot for toonlink, he no longer has guaranteed follow ups or reliable gimping tactics, this is when toonlink should try to camp olimar and rack up damage until olimar hits 105%+. Toonlink won't kill olimar unless he is put near the edge or read very well, even then, toonlink will only get kills off offstage fairs/ slightly charged fsmash near an edge. This is the best percent to put pressure on olimar's shield since most olimars wont get scared into stupid rolls or spotdodges at this %. This is toonlink's best time to use his priority to hit olimar out of his attacks, and zair pops olimar into a nice angle for follow-up fair.
olimar at high percents: (105%+) This is olimar's death % (assuming good DI/ no really good charge smash reads) and hardest part for toonlink in this MU. The one things most toonlinks due is attempt to hyphen smash/ DACUS olimar when he is landing, this will only work once a set maybe against a good olimar, we have too many options and too good a shield to get hit by it much, so this is overall toonlink's most unsafe kill move on olimar without a great read. Use projectiles to set up kills with fair or nair, both of which can be whistled, nair is better at low kills %s because it sends olimar at a 50-60 degree angle with DI, fair for higher kill %s due to its power. Fsmash is a risky kill move as well, only good when olimar's shield is low, he is read very well on landing, spot-dodge, or roll, or if you get close to an olimar when he short-hop side-bs (most olimars won't react fast enough to fair you first but instead side-b more or air-dodge, maybe a whistle but even then olimar will probably try to grab or smash and not whistle the second hit, so he should get hit by the second part). Also, if olimar is shielding at an edge, the first hit of fsmash knocks him offstage and the second hit will hit him. Your fair has great priority and beats all our smash attacks except yellow (and red depending on how good olimar spaces it compared to toonlink), it loses to fair and pivot grab. You should be using projectiles and zair the entire match to create openings, beat olimar's attacks, and pop him into the air, this part is no exception, in the air, your best bet is to bait olimars whistle or airdodge then punish, keep in mind olimar can b-reverse with whistle and side b, the same snake can do with grenades. Falling up-air works wonders on olimar because he is so floaty and limited.
Toonlink at low and mid percent (~87%): at really low %s most olimars will risk trying to get grab combos since one grab combo takes away a third of toonlink's stock, that is our only low % play-style change from mid percents. Otherwise olimar will be do a few things: short-hop side b camp to out-camp toonlink (remember a latched on pikmin will make bomb explode in your face), pivot grab a lot to punish toonlink's trying to get in by air, and fsmash grounded and really low to the ground toonlinks, also, if toonlink is popped up into the air, expect up air, up-b and upsmash mix-ups, all of which toonlink just has to avoid, which isn't too hard because he is floaty with good aerial speed+jump height, but still dangerous, toonlink was absolutely no way to land safely if directly below olimar, he needs to be at least in zair spacing distance. Also, side note: fresh olimar up-air with red pikmin does 24% damage, iirc yellow is the lowest fresh up-air with 14%. Offstage, olimar has an easy time recovering unless he is forced to up-b, because toonlink's should know how to zair edge-guard, but otherwise watch out for olimar's up-air, and we can whistle or fair you out of edge-guard attempts fairly well, along with fastfall up-b, or just using our double jump, you can use projectiles to bait a whistle or pop olimar up into the air and hit him with a fair, nair, or up-air.
TL;DR...olimar will run away and camp with side -b a lot, then pivot grab and fsmash...you should make openings with projectiles and attempt to hurt him in the air
toonlink at high %s (88%+): First off all (assuming fresh moves) any purple smash will now kill you from the middle of FD, near and edge all our non white or yellow smashes will kill you (assuming FD) with another 22%, our red fair (and blue+purple with another 15%) kills you relatively close to the middle of FD along with the rest of non white smashes (and maybe yellow), at 110% we can kill you with purple up throw, at 130%, near middle of FD, our blue backthrow will kill you. at 150%, up-b now has kill power about 1/5 of FD's distance away from the center) Now, keep in mind, olimar will only be getting kills on toonlink when toonlink creates an opening with being risky, jumping to high, doing the wrong defensive L or R button move, or just makes a bad spacing, but all that requires olimar getting close to toonlink without being in a position to avoid projectile damage, toonlink should for the most part here be doing a few things, running away while throwing projectiles (side b damage shouldn't bother you at this percent unless its white) punishing olimar's approaches and kill moves with fair and nair, and forcing olimar near the edge for being risky, unless olimar is also at kill %s, you have no reason to do risky moves, so you stick with safe stuff and small damage harassment.
other things to note: watch out for olimar's purple side b, it knocks you back, combos into a fair at close range and ruins approaches. You can stop its knockback by hitting it with one of your fair, maybe nair (im not positive though) and your zair, note it goes through your projectiles and keeps it's knockback properties.
our upsmash will clank with your dair and bounce you up as if you hit a shield, its very cool looking to see if olimar does it to both hits of the dair.
olimar's fair is fast and almost the range of your fair, a little longer than your nair, watch out for it because a spaced fair is hard to avoid if not seen in advance.
when olimar is landing, pivot grabs are actually pretty good as an occasional cross-up.
toonlink's nair is very safe and high priority, stops pikmin, sends olimar at an awkward angle, pokes shields well, use it with high moderation moderation (idk if it is in range or JC US OOS, if it is in range, ignore this)
Stages:
For toonlink, i suggest trying to get these neutrals in the initial striking process:
BF (recommended)-its close range battles hamper olimar more than it does toonlink, still a good olimar stage, makes our juggling game better and gives olimar surprisingly early dsmash kills, but not a favorite olimar stage
FD-The size of the stage allows toonlink to outrange all of olimar's pikmin except full hop white side b or double jump side b, very good to get openings on greedy olimars, no platforms also hamper's olimar's juggle abilities, but flatness of stage makes approaching olimar harder...(considering moving to "evenish" section
neutrals to avoid:
YI: olimar loves the double platform, makes up harder to low % combo, gives us room to expect bad situations, platform augments our juggle ability while hampering toonlink's projectiles
SV- the moving platform gives you more room to avoid olimar's camp and probably gives you more approach options, otherwise it really doesn't help toonlink though, the size of the stage is perfect for olimar's camp and the moving platform gives him another way to recover or get off the edge.
evenish neutral:
lylat: the tilting hurts toonlink's recovery, but can make his camping harder to predict, also screws up olimar's delicate spacing against toonlink, when oli's side is tilted downward, olimar can't use fsmash, olimar's side b is more sporadic and the tilting can be abused, both characters get good gains in juggling on this stage, also, im not positive, but i think olimar gets more yellow pikmin on this stage
other:
PS1: i don't have much toonlink exp on this stage, even then its from a long time ago, in theory it makes olimar hard to approach and gives him good follow ups on most of the phases...but none of this opinion is solidified
counterpicks/ bans:
bans:
halberd-lower ceiling=olimar kills about 15% earlier...double platform similar to YI...sharking through bottom, overall a generic olimar's go-to stage
castle seige(rarely CPed but still a great oli stage despite most olimar's do not consider it)-first phase makes olimar hard as hell to approach from either side, lets him kill early horizontally after one grab combo (think 70% with dsmash). Phase two statues and layout makes it easy for olimar to camp, or you can run away on the awnings since most olimars will have trouble hitting you without being risky. Phase three is the size of SV about but with a tilt and no moving platform...do the math.
YI-for same reasons as mentioned earlier
also, if luigi's mansion is still legal ANYWHERE, ALWAYS BAN THAT, NO EXPLANATION REQUIRED
counterpicks:
brinstar: IDK how toonlink is on that stage, but olimar fares poorly because it ruins his ground spacing game, the outside platforms are almost useless for juggling, our air game isn't good enough to give chase on this stage, due to this stage's thickness, its hard to safely shark, especially where the barrels are on the right because it extends up-air's time
TBH, idk toonlink's good or bad stages but olimar does pretty well on all stages except brinstar, just pick your favorite i guess
possible counterpicks/ counterpicks believed to be good:
delfino: supposedly good for toonlink and pretty good for olimar, i personally dislike this stage because its music and colors suck >_< but toonlink probably gets some sort of notable advantages here
frigate: olimar gets more purples and yellows...but the right part of the first phase might make up for that with toonlink, if its a generally good toonlink stage maybe you can CP it, although i'd advise against it
~~dabuz
Basics:
olimar's pros:
kills early
easily racks up damage
can compete with toonlink's air game
outcamps toonlink, makes bombs useless
prevents toonlink from getting in easily
has little problems shaking off toonlink
olimar's cons:
gets dsmashed gimped at less than 32% when not near middle of stage
lacks reliable way to deal with spaced zair
in order to outcamp toonlink, olimar puts himself in bad positions (pikminless, high up in air, too close to edge)
massive difficulty landing a kill
ratio: 60-40 or 55-45 olimar IMO, with the advent of olimar's JC US OOS, the previous problem of olimar being unable to punish toonlink hitting olimar's shield with spaced aerials is no longer a problem (zair is still probably an exception)
how olimar should play:
CAMP AND STAGE CONTROL: thats it, olimar has no aggro game on toonlink due to his high priority and equally effective camping game, olimar needs to camp and force toonlink to either camp just as good or make smart openings with projectiles
olimar at low percents: (~40) olimar can easily lose a stock due to dsmash, smart olimars will avoid that at all costs, making him very likely to shield abnormally long, setting up toonlink for grabs then good bair wall or W/E else you guys have as follow-ups. Also zair combos work nicely at this percent.
olimar at mid percents: (40%-105%) this is a moderately bad spot for toonlink, he no longer has guaranteed follow ups or reliable gimping tactics, this is when toonlink should try to camp olimar and rack up damage until olimar hits 105%+. Toonlink won't kill olimar unless he is put near the edge or read very well, even then, toonlink will only get kills off offstage fairs/ slightly charged fsmash near an edge. This is the best percent to put pressure on olimar's shield since most olimars wont get scared into stupid rolls or spotdodges at this %. This is toonlink's best time to use his priority to hit olimar out of his attacks, and zair pops olimar into a nice angle for follow-up fair.
olimar at high percents: (105%+) This is olimar's death % (assuming good DI/ no really good charge smash reads) and hardest part for toonlink in this MU. The one things most toonlinks due is attempt to hyphen smash/ DACUS olimar when he is landing, this will only work once a set maybe against a good olimar, we have too many options and too good a shield to get hit by it much, so this is overall toonlink's most unsafe kill move on olimar without a great read. Use projectiles to set up kills with fair or nair, both of which can be whistled, nair is better at low kills %s because it sends olimar at a 50-60 degree angle with DI, fair for higher kill %s due to its power. Fsmash is a risky kill move as well, only good when olimar's shield is low, he is read very well on landing, spot-dodge, or roll, or if you get close to an olimar when he short-hop side-bs (most olimars won't react fast enough to fair you first but instead side-b more or air-dodge, maybe a whistle but even then olimar will probably try to grab or smash and not whistle the second hit, so he should get hit by the second part). Also, if olimar is shielding at an edge, the first hit of fsmash knocks him offstage and the second hit will hit him. Your fair has great priority and beats all our smash attacks except yellow (and red depending on how good olimar spaces it compared to toonlink), it loses to fair and pivot grab. You should be using projectiles and zair the entire match to create openings, beat olimar's attacks, and pop him into the air, this part is no exception, in the air, your best bet is to bait olimars whistle or airdodge then punish, keep in mind olimar can b-reverse with whistle and side b, the same snake can do with grenades. Falling up-air works wonders on olimar because he is so floaty and limited.
Toonlink at low and mid percent (~87%): at really low %s most olimars will risk trying to get grab combos since one grab combo takes away a third of toonlink's stock, that is our only low % play-style change from mid percents. Otherwise olimar will be do a few things: short-hop side b camp to out-camp toonlink (remember a latched on pikmin will make bomb explode in your face), pivot grab a lot to punish toonlink's trying to get in by air, and fsmash grounded and really low to the ground toonlinks, also, if toonlink is popped up into the air, expect up air, up-b and upsmash mix-ups, all of which toonlink just has to avoid, which isn't too hard because he is floaty with good aerial speed+jump height, but still dangerous, toonlink was absolutely no way to land safely if directly below olimar, he needs to be at least in zair spacing distance. Also, side note: fresh olimar up-air with red pikmin does 24% damage, iirc yellow is the lowest fresh up-air with 14%. Offstage, olimar has an easy time recovering unless he is forced to up-b, because toonlink's should know how to zair edge-guard, but otherwise watch out for olimar's up-air, and we can whistle or fair you out of edge-guard attempts fairly well, along with fastfall up-b, or just using our double jump, you can use projectiles to bait a whistle or pop olimar up into the air and hit him with a fair, nair, or up-air.
TL;DR...olimar will run away and camp with side -b a lot, then pivot grab and fsmash...you should make openings with projectiles and attempt to hurt him in the air
toonlink at high %s (88%+): First off all (assuming fresh moves) any purple smash will now kill you from the middle of FD, near and edge all our non white or yellow smashes will kill you (assuming FD) with another 22%, our red fair (and blue+purple with another 15%) kills you relatively close to the middle of FD along with the rest of non white smashes (and maybe yellow), at 110% we can kill you with purple up throw, at 130%, near middle of FD, our blue backthrow will kill you. at 150%, up-b now has kill power about 1/5 of FD's distance away from the center) Now, keep in mind, olimar will only be getting kills on toonlink when toonlink creates an opening with being risky, jumping to high, doing the wrong defensive L or R button move, or just makes a bad spacing, but all that requires olimar getting close to toonlink without being in a position to avoid projectile damage, toonlink should for the most part here be doing a few things, running away while throwing projectiles (side b damage shouldn't bother you at this percent unless its white) punishing olimar's approaches and kill moves with fair and nair, and forcing olimar near the edge for being risky, unless olimar is also at kill %s, you have no reason to do risky moves, so you stick with safe stuff and small damage harassment.
other things to note: watch out for olimar's purple side b, it knocks you back, combos into a fair at close range and ruins approaches. You can stop its knockback by hitting it with one of your fair, maybe nair (im not positive though) and your zair, note it goes through your projectiles and keeps it's knockback properties.
our upsmash will clank with your dair and bounce you up as if you hit a shield, its very cool looking to see if olimar does it to both hits of the dair.
olimar's fair is fast and almost the range of your fair, a little longer than your nair, watch out for it because a spaced fair is hard to avoid if not seen in advance.
when olimar is landing, pivot grabs are actually pretty good as an occasional cross-up.
toonlink's nair is very safe and high priority, stops pikmin, sends olimar at an awkward angle, pokes shields well, use it with high moderation moderation (idk if it is in range or JC US OOS, if it is in range, ignore this)
Stages:
For toonlink, i suggest trying to get these neutrals in the initial striking process:
BF (recommended)-its close range battles hamper olimar more than it does toonlink, still a good olimar stage, makes our juggling game better and gives olimar surprisingly early dsmash kills, but not a favorite olimar stage
FD-The size of the stage allows toonlink to outrange all of olimar's pikmin except full hop white side b or double jump side b, very good to get openings on greedy olimars, no platforms also hamper's olimar's juggle abilities, but flatness of stage makes approaching olimar harder...(considering moving to "evenish" section
neutrals to avoid:
YI: olimar loves the double platform, makes up harder to low % combo, gives us room to expect bad situations, platform augments our juggle ability while hampering toonlink's projectiles
SV- the moving platform gives you more room to avoid olimar's camp and probably gives you more approach options, otherwise it really doesn't help toonlink though, the size of the stage is perfect for olimar's camp and the moving platform gives him another way to recover or get off the edge.
evenish neutral:
lylat: the tilting hurts toonlink's recovery, but can make his camping harder to predict, also screws up olimar's delicate spacing against toonlink, when oli's side is tilted downward, olimar can't use fsmash, olimar's side b is more sporadic and the tilting can be abused, both characters get good gains in juggling on this stage, also, im not positive, but i think olimar gets more yellow pikmin on this stage
other:
PS1: i don't have much toonlink exp on this stage, even then its from a long time ago, in theory it makes olimar hard to approach and gives him good follow ups on most of the phases...but none of this opinion is solidified
counterpicks/ bans:
bans:
halberd-lower ceiling=olimar kills about 15% earlier...double platform similar to YI...sharking through bottom, overall a generic olimar's go-to stage
castle seige(rarely CPed but still a great oli stage despite most olimar's do not consider it)-first phase makes olimar hard as hell to approach from either side, lets him kill early horizontally after one grab combo (think 70% with dsmash). Phase two statues and layout makes it easy for olimar to camp, or you can run away on the awnings since most olimars will have trouble hitting you without being risky. Phase three is the size of SV about but with a tilt and no moving platform...do the math.
YI-for same reasons as mentioned earlier
also, if luigi's mansion is still legal ANYWHERE, ALWAYS BAN THAT, NO EXPLANATION REQUIRED
counterpicks:
brinstar: IDK how toonlink is on that stage, but olimar fares poorly because it ruins his ground spacing game, the outside platforms are almost useless for juggling, our air game isn't good enough to give chase on this stage, due to this stage's thickness, its hard to safely shark, especially where the barrels are on the right because it extends up-air's time
TBH, idk toonlink's good or bad stages but olimar does pretty well on all stages except brinstar, just pick your favorite i guess
possible counterpicks/ counterpicks believed to be good:
delfino: supposedly good for toonlink and pretty good for olimar, i personally dislike this stage because its music and colors suck >_< but toonlink probably gets some sort of notable advantages here
frigate: olimar gets more purples and yellows...but the right part of the first phase might make up for that with toonlink, if its a generally good toonlink stage maybe you can CP it, although i'd advise against it
Thebest1pj
Pinnacle of Projectile Placement.
your good lol
QUIVO
Smash Master
I hate you PJ
Denti
Smash Master
TL is so campy, I just can't take it XD
I've only had trouble with jerm's TL btw.
..MM everyone else XD
I've only had trouble with jerm's TL btw.
..MM everyone else XD
MJG
Smash Hero
I'll MM you at Dallas for $10
Denti
Smash Master
Sweet! Well I wont have 10$ but lets make it like 5 or something, I'm too broke and can't be betting money I don't have.
Hyro
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2008
- Messages
- 1,386
Denti
Smash Master
Hyro wtf XD
LMAO
MJG
Smash Hero
That's fine. I forgot that we actually played at that fail OK tourney where fogo, you and Ice showed up. That wasn't in bracket though. I just remember that you have (had) a temper lol.
Thebest1pj
Pinnacle of Projectile Placement.
wAY TO BRING UP HIS TEMPER THAT HE GOT RID OF (I HOUSED EM I KNOW) YA **** FOR NO REASON
MJG
Smash Hero
Olimar 50:50– Everyone loves olimar -.-. This can be one annoying MU if you don’t know what to do. With Olimar’s pikmin latch, using bombs horizontally is near impossible.
Things to keep in mind:
-Nair: Space this move really well. If it is spaced well, olimar cannot punish you (even if you SH or FH nair).
-Bair: Using bair on olimar usually isn’t the best idea. He can tag you OoS with JC Up Smash and even a regular Up Smash.
-Zair: Don’t try to follow up with this move too much. Use it to give yourself some space.
-Grab: Yes, TL’s useless grab is useful in this MU. A lot of olimars like to just sit in their shield. Grab them, put them in the air and go from there.
-Bombs: As useless as bombs may seem, they will help protect you from olimar when landing; as long as you aren’t predictable.
Kill Moves:
Fair, Uair, Bair (not as stale in this MU), Up smash (this should only be used if you can force an air dodge from an olimar or if you can get a good read).
Once TL is up a stock vs olimar, full hop nairs, spaced zairs and camping from above is probably the best idea. Olimar now has to approach at this point and 9 times out of 10, TL will die from a fresh throw/Smash attack anyways.
Stages: Smashville, Battlefield, Frigate, and Rainbow Cruise.
Ban: Halberd, Delfino, and Yoshi’s Island.
Fun Note: You can down smash purple pikmin off stage since down smash does 11% and purple pikmin have 15 HP (lol).
Things to keep in mind:
-Nair: Space this move really well. If it is spaced well, olimar cannot punish you (even if you SH or FH nair).
-Bair: Using bair on olimar usually isn’t the best idea. He can tag you OoS with JC Up Smash and even a regular Up Smash.
-Zair: Don’t try to follow up with this move too much. Use it to give yourself some space.
-Grab: Yes, TL’s useless grab is useful in this MU. A lot of olimars like to just sit in their shield. Grab them, put them in the air and go from there.
-Bombs: As useless as bombs may seem, they will help protect you from olimar when landing; as long as you aren’t predictable.
Kill Moves:
Fair, Uair, Bair (not as stale in this MU), Up smash (this should only be used if you can force an air dodge from an olimar or if you can get a good read).
Once TL is up a stock vs olimar, full hop nairs, spaced zairs and camping from above is probably the best idea. Olimar now has to approach at this point and 9 times out of 10, TL will die from a fresh throw/Smash attack anyways.
Stages: Smashville, Battlefield, Frigate, and Rainbow Cruise.
Ban: Halberd, Delfino, and Yoshi’s Island.
Fun Note: You can down smash purple pikmin off stage since down smash does 11% and purple pikmin have 15 HP (lol).
Thebest1pj
Pinnacle of Projectile Placement.
Grabbing olimar was my solely my idea.,glad you guys finally decided to listen though lol.
Offstage zair could possibly push olimar back enough to prevent recovery they fall down and try to recover at mid level where they can (up b onstage) or (up b the ledge) i just try to push through their offstage whistle and if they get to the ledge i throw a bomb down to pop them up also the best move to deal with whistle is nair two hits are harder to block charged upsmash might net you a kill on an oli landing with whistle .....just my take.