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Matchup Re-Discussion: Falco

ElNoNombreHombre

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Nov 22, 2009
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Pikachu vs. Falco
( Link to central matchup thread. )


Resources for discussion:

Current MU Ratio (subject to change after discussion): 56:44 in Pikachu's favor
Can we CG him?: Yes

- 0% - 58% + regrab
- Fthrow x 8 > grab

- 19% - 100% + regrab
- Dthrow x 13 > grab


Our Original Matchup Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=180437
Their Matchup Opinion/Thread: 65:35 in Pikachu's favor, http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=267171

Pikachu Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=223901
Falco Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=187546

Summary:

In progress.
 

Tagxy

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I used to play larry quite a lot. I tried different ways of approaching the MU, the most affective I had was playing him normally.

The problem with waiting for them to approach is even if you can force him to approach, its not going to lead to a grab. If youre just sitting there hes not going to attack you with moves in your grab range, he's going to ftilt you, jab you, or maybe grab you. If you powershield either of the first two you can punish him, but not with a grab, and if you do go for the grab like he'll expect then you'll get punished. Expecting youll be able to beat falcos camp or approach game with just grab and not approaching is heavily underestimating falco. The only exception is if the falco fishes for the grab himself; pika has the tools to get his grab before falco if thats what both are trying to do.

Personally Ive found the best way to get the grab is to play the MU normally and just wait for the grab to come in its natural course. Falcos are forced to play a very limited playstyle just by the grabs existence and its very noticeable. For them it ends up as a screwed if you do screwed if you dont scenario bc if they play their limited style theyre going to get hit with a lot more and that makes it easier for them to fall into the grab, but if they try to play normal one read can cause them to get grabbed. At the very least theyll take way more damage then they normally would.

Anyways, bc of that I dont think youll be beating a falco thats actually better than you. If you cant land consistent hits anyways then youre going to lose most likely. But if youre playing someone even remotely on your own level then the pika will probably win an overwhelming majority of the time (unless youre camping for grabs, lol).

Granted I still fish for grabs 90% of the time especially in friendlies bc it definitely requires less thinking or to see what works, lol. Anyways thats my thoughts.
A few other notes:

1. This is Pikachu and Falcos most boring and uninteresting matchup. Avoid in friendlies unless youre trying to learn the MU.

2. If you go into the fight without much experience or knowledge expect to lose or get owned. Any Falco that would play a pikachu in tournament probably knows the MU inside and out. Unless theyre completely ignorant in which case you'll probably 3-stock them, lol.

3. Theres a lot more to say concerning his jab and dair, which are his most effective moves against pika. But maybe let someone else cover that.

Also, learn the timing on when to powershield your own jolt from a shine. It can essentially be a free grab and scare them away from using it :laugh:

Oh and one last thing. If you DO happen to get grabbed and get spiked at the end and a fairly high percent, be careful because it can lead to your death.
1. Dont try and struggle out of the grab, no point and you might accidently buffer your jump away.
2. Theres a big enough chance that youll end up at an angle where you cant recover with QA. It starts so fast that youll end up at the ledge while falco is invincible.
3. Remain calm and wait to use your jump. I just found out like in the last month that if you try to buffer your jump too early youll end up in hitstun longer and basically will die. Instead take your time, use your jump too put you in a good position, then recover safely with QA.
 

Fera

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Tagxy, concerning the jump after the spike, I know you can't simply spam a jump button because you have a 20 frame "delay" between one jump input and your next one, if is this what you're talking about "being in hitstun longer" I've read you can just spam tap jump, since there's no delay in this way of jumping.

Can anyone please confirm this?
 

Flutter NiTE

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Falco is a problem for me. He spams his lasers, I crouch walk, and when i get anywhere near him, he does his shine, which trips me, then he CG's me and spikes
 

Fera

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Well Nitewing, crouching is fine, but learning how to power walk (power shielding and walking betwee the lazers) so you can get in for a grab.

Now, if your problem is his shine you will need to learn how to power shield it so you can punish him.

Pikaslided dtilt is a good spacing tool and can help you.

As for the CG you can try dAir'ing while you are on stage and maybe you'll free yourself if he didn't do the CG frametight, when he spike you, you can SDI to the stage and tech at the ledge or meteor cancel with your double jump and QA back to the ledge/stage.
 

KayLo!

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I've read you can just spam tap jump, since there's no delay in this way of jumping.

Can anyone please confirm this?
That's true. You can spam tap jump out of a meteor spike, but a jump button has some delay between inputs if you mash it too early.

However, that doesn't really matter out of Falco's CG > dair. It won't spike you nearly far enough to kill you even if your jump timing isn't perfect.
 

Flutter NiTE

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Well Nitewing, crouching is fine, but learning how to power walk (power shielding and walking betwee the lazers) so you can get in for a grab.

Now, if your problem is his shine you will need to learn how to power shield it so you can punish him.

Pikaslided dtilt is a good spacing tool and can help you.
Pika's dtilt doesn't out range falcos shine does it?
 

KayLo!

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Falcos make it seem like it's worse than it is. It's usually bad, and there's no doubt that the CG helps a LOT, but it's far from unwinnable for Falco. He can play this MU extremely gay and do all right.
 

#HBC | ZoZo

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No, you guys have it backwards. The ratio describes the number of matches one would win out of 100, not how much work one puts while in the match, sigh.
 

KayLo!

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Wrong. Lol. I know some other fighting communities have it that way, but in general, Brawl ratios are a general idea of how hard one player has to play vs. another in the MU.

To each his own interpretation, tho. =P

Anyways, back to the matchup itself, Falco has the tools to outspace Pikachu and punish him for attempting to grab too much. Also, even if you get the CG off, Falco can very realistically bring it back to even before you can finish him off. Most Falcos are inexperienced in the MU, though, considering how few Pikachus are around -- lucky for us. :bee:
 

#HBC | ZoZo

Shocodoro Blagshidect
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Falco needs mixups to not get grabbed, you can read him and overall have enough options to get a grab in and start that sexy 0-death of yours. Falco is okay at not getting grabbed partially because of mobility, but Pikachu pretty much nullifies that by having greater mobility.

How can you measure how hard one has it in a game, btw?
 

KayLo!

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Nobody goes for that when it's much easier to CG to 100%+ > usmash. Until it starts happening in the actual, practiced metagame, it's just as good as theorycraft lol.
 

#HBC | ZoZo

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No it's not, it's proven theory. It's like saying that IC's chaingrabs aren't completely mastered under stress yet, so we shouldn't consider them.

We should consider all options.
 

KayLo!

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Except..... people actually get the 0-death with ICs all the time. :dizzy:

I'm not saying the 0-death on Falco isn't possible or shouldn't be considered at all, but it shouldn't count heavily enough to turn the MU into omgpracticallyimpossible yet when it's never been done in practice.
 

KayLo!

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I think he's assuming that you dthrow CG into the uair > footstool, then QAL and/or jab lock > death after the footstool..... but either way, it's dumb hard and not really practical.
 

#HBC | ZoZo

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Except..... people actually get the 0-death with ICs all the time. :dizzy:

I'm not saying the 0-death on Falco isn't possible or shouldn't be considered at all, but it shouldn't count heavily enough to turn the MU into omgpracticallyimpossible yet when it's never been done in practice.
It actually gets dropped a lot, especially under pressure.
Besides that, IC's have had YEARS to practice.

And, still, 70/30 is not practically impossible.
 

KayLo!

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70:30 is hard counter status..... I don't think Pika counters Falco at all.

& if you want to use that logic with ICs, then by your line of thought, they should 70:30 everyone in the cast lol. Their 0-death is considerably more viable than our "0-death" on Falco in practice.
 

Meru.

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No, you guys have it backwards. The ratio describes the number of matches one would win out of 100, not how much work one puts while in the match, sigh.
Thats how it works in Street Fighter, not Brawl.

Ratios are a mess in this community. The two most common systems of ratios are:

50-50 even
55-45 slight advantage
60-40 advantage, still very well winnable
65-35 solid advantage, really hard to win
70-30 stupid advantage, near unwinnable
75-25+ never mind it anyway

or

50-50 even
55-45 pretty much even, it just feels like one has a very slightly easier time/ some gimmicks that help
60-40 slight advantage
65-35 advantage
70-30 solid advantage
75-25+ stupid advantages/unwinnable

oooooor you just say how hard it is!


:052:
 

Pikabunz

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QAL/Jab Lock should never lead to death unless you start the lock at 100+. SDI exist you know.
 

#HBC | ZoZo

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70:30 is hard counter status..... I don't think Pika counters Falco at all.

& if you want to use that logic with ICs, then by your line of thought, they should 70:30 everyone in the cast lol. Their 0-death is considerably more viable than our "0-death" on Falco in practice.
No, because Pika has way better tools to get a grab. Especially against Falco.
 

Leaf.

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No, because Pika has way better tools to get a grab. Especially against Falco.
I'd like to know these tools...

Seriously, like, if Falco can get on a platform, ugh.
If falco doesn't die off your move from the cg, ugh.
If falco grabs you, ugh.

I seriously just try to get hit by the first few lasers (I think to 15% or so) so I can't get chain grabbed.

Pika's grab sucks.
But once it happens...:awesome:
 

Fera

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Pikachu's CGs are awesome in this match-up but aren't the solution to all of our problems since our grab range is so small.
First, we need to figure how to get the grab. Falco’s ftilt, shine, jab, grab,dtilt(?) keep us away from grabing him.
I’m mostly getting grabs from fair>grab, or punishing his landing/baiting an aerial ocasionally a tripping dtilt > grab happen, especially since it's my prefered spacing tool. Utilt>grab don’t really work for me since I find hard to enter enough in the **** bird comfort zone to use the utilt.
Probably he will get the CG on us sometime, respect the chain and don't try to jump out of it. When he dAir, DI and Tech the stage/ledge or get back with a QA, reset the match and play smart.
IF we get the CG on them, we have an advantage, learn to work with marginal advantage. Don't go greedy on kill moves, take your time crouch, dtilt and punish when he mess up with kill move or a quick GTFO to send him offstage and gimp, just remember to hit him at the starting OR ending frames of the Phantasm. Get into his play style and crack him.
Remember the common Falco play style is abusable. He'll stay on the defensive with lazors and try for a grab like against everybody, disrupting game with a jab now and then. The diference in this match-up is that he'll be using ftilt a lot more. Approach wisely, powerwalk or just crouch if the stage let you crouch under lazers, slided dtilt him and retreat. Only jump for the grab if the opportunity arises, he'll try to mindgame you into exposing yourself, play safe.

Falco will also aim for a CG to build damage, and may end with a meter or a dacus-like combo (dash attack>usmash). Lazer spam is a no brainer and he’ll use it, on stages like pictochat crouching may no solve your problems with it, so learn to power shield. Watch for tilts, jabs and some shines, expect Phantasms to be used as a runaway tool. His aerial game is not that good so getting him on the air is a good idea, abuse your Uair.
When he start going to the kill, expect three things: Bair, Usmash or Fsmash “gimp”. I see Bair as the easier killing move that Falco has, but Pikachu survive well to the sides, so when you’re at killing %, secure the center of the stage and read his attempts to Usmash.

My thoughts: One of Falco’s hardest match-ups, we’re pretty to him like Marth is to us – we’re one of his counters but not a real hard counter, exactly 60-40 , he’s in the same league but harder than Link.
 

#HBC | ZoZo

Shocodoro Blagshidect
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Getting on a platform for Falco is no biggie if you just strike BF. FD is nice and flat, no place to escape for us (also a reason why marth has the advantage against falco on this stage lol), and SV platform allows for platformcancels (lagless), and if you're pressed you can't retreat to another platform. Sure, there are counterpicks, but in the end you probably won't really care about platforms.
 

bigman40

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Getting the CG is great, but still quite hard on a patient Falco. It's trying to go toe to toe after the CG has been done. Pika has a slight amount of problems with that (getting out ranged and such).

 

Tagxy

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You cant expect the CG to win you the match at higher levels.

FD is better if youre trying to focus on getting the CG, but is pretty bad otherwise. I dunno it works out sometimes but it just feels a lot more luck oriented, if they dedicate themselves to just spamming lazer and illusion it turns out to be pretty horrible here.
 
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