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Ban brinstar and rainbow cruise
- Thread starter Hax
- Start date
Nø Ca$h
Smash Champion
brinstar is a legit stage.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Totally. I've been saying for a while to just get rid of them and have 7 neutrals, no counterpicks. Strike 122112. Maybe have 2 stage bans? I've always thought it was stupid that we let each person go to the most extreme counterpick possible. Each set should be on the 3 most fair stages. You could even just strike for each counterpick for all I care.
the logic behind a "counterpick stage" is flawed in general. it essentially says that a stage isn't fair enough for game 1, but then it's ok to pick it game 2. you can't use "just ban brinstar" as a counter-argument because then the winning player basically isn't given a ban.
a stage should either be "neutral" or not legal at all
a stage should either be "neutral" or not legal at all
Ripple
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Yoshi island
FD
battlefield
Fountain
dreamland
Kongo
Pokemon stadium 1
RC
Brinstar
Mute city
pokefloats
11 stages
use full stage list striking. no "neutral" or "cp" that whole idea is pretty stupid. neutrals as we know it promote certain characters more than others. a true neutral is a median of bais.
FD
battlefield
Fountain
dreamland
Kongo
Pokemon stadium 1
RC
Brinstar
Mute city
pokefloats
11 stages
use full stage list striking. no "neutral" or "cp" that whole idea is pretty stupid. neutrals as we know it promote certain characters more than others. a true neutral is a median of bais.
BetaBahamut
Smash Journeyman
Totally On board for this.
7 neutral Stage strike then 1 ban. Problem occurs when you switch over to teams your still gonna have to do a 5 neutral Stage strike and have Japes as the only CP. Either way were gonna need a big tourny to adapt a new ruleset if we ever wanna see them gone.
7 neutral Stage strike then 1 ban. Problem occurs when you switch over to teams your still gonna have to do a 5 neutral Stage strike and have Japes as the only CP. Either way were gonna need a big tourny to adapt a new ruleset if we ever wanna see them gone.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Pokefloats has been banned for a while now. Mute City is freakin' huge and has no ledges, plus there are random cars flying around that hit you. Brinstar has random lava saves/lava comboes on FFers and fighting on Rainbow Cruise is just impossible because the **** stage moves all the time. You never see more than a few hits strung together and stalling is greatly promoted because of some characters' ability to avoid conflict.
Also, while I understand what you're saying about a large tournament adopting this ruleset, I believe most ruleset changes have actually occurred at the local level first. Only when a ruleset change has happened in most regions do national tournaments begin adopting them (or at least that's the way I see it).
Also, while I understand what you're saying about a large tournament adopting this ruleset, I believe most ruleset changes have actually occurred at the local level first. Only when a ruleset change has happened in most regions do national tournaments begin adopting them (or at least that's the way I see it).
_ToAsT_
Smash Apprentice
I myself can't see why Rainbow cruise is legal, but I can understand Brinstar. Brinstar is a perfect stage for characters like Jiggs, Samus, and a few others, but not good for everyone. I do believe the purpose of a counter-pick stage is to choose a stage that isn't fair for all characters, but not so broken that it can't be played on. I say leave Brinstar, ban rainbow cruise.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Then what is the competitive reasoning behind having counterpicks at all? Should players not be playing on the three most fair stages in the ruleset?
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned via Warnings
I thinkk brinstar depths is more legit than brinstar. f***ing lava and the spilting is dumb. I don't know when it comes to Rainbow ride and brinstar I feel that some charcters are just totally f***ed no matter what they do.
I've tryed playing with them but bull**** always happens on those stages. At my 1st tournment vs a really great falco I got 4 stoccked and stiwched to brinstar and came fairly close to winning which was bulls***. Stages shouldn't f*** you up that bad. I never even play on that stage.
I've tryed playing with them but bull**** always happens on those stages. At my 1st tournment vs a really great falco I got 4 stoccked and stiwched to brinstar and came fairly close to winning which was bulls***. Stages shouldn't f*** you up that bad. I never even play on that stage.
Ripple
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just because a stage moves does not mean it should automatically be a CP.
thats stupid.
flat != starter
and like I said, there should be NO CP stages.
it should be "legal" and "banned"
Full stage list striking. if you don't you are artificially buffing certain characters such as Falco
thats stupid.
flat != starter
and like I said, there should be NO CP stages.
it should be "legal" and "banned"
Full stage list striking. if you don't you are artificially buffing certain characters such as Falco
best ruleset is probably:
7 neutrals
FD
BF
YS
FOD
DL64
PS
KJ64
121212 striking (can someone explain why 122112 is better?)
I think this is perfect because:
YS/FOD = 2 small stages
FD/BF/PS = 3 medium stages
DL64/KF64 = 2 large stages
7 neutrals
FD
BF
YS
FOD
DL64
PS
KJ64
121212 striking (can someone explain why 122112 is better?)
I think this is perfect because:
YS/FOD = 2 small stages
FD/BF/PS = 3 medium stages
DL64/KF64 = 2 large stages
Niko45
Smash Master
FD as a medium stage is quite a stretch, but I'd definitely take that 7 stage format over the current one. I'm not sure why Brinstar is allowed and Mute City is not when those stages function very similarly. Both should be banned.
KJ64 is really not a good stage. There are a bunch of matchups that have very viable time-out strategies on that stage.
KJ64 is really not a good stage. There are a bunch of matchups that have very viable time-out strategies on that stage.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
I support this thread. I'd have to side with armada though, ban kj64 while youre at it lol.
I mean at this point why don't we just ban ALL the stages?
We had about 6 months ago, we had the Six [at the time] Neutrals [PS, FD, FoD (If you want to move any stage off of legal, that one), DL64, and YS], then the CP Stages, which were: Jungle Japes, Corneria, Pokefloats, Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise, Mute City, and KJ64.
I had this argument with PP, about how people are looking at the characters ALONE as pieces of this game, while ignoring a very critical piece of information: this game is played by PEOPLE. People make this game as well as the characters, so we need to include them as well.
It goes back to the guy who spends 100% of his time on FD. Give him a stage that's not FD, and he can't win. Why would we promote that? Stages are pieces of the mindgame players play around, in the fact that people play differently on different stages. Would you play the same on Battlefield that you do on FD? Of course not. Knowing that, and exploiting your opponent's strategies upon these different stages is super important to winning the game, and overall the set.
CPs are instrumental in this mindset, as you get that advantage over the player that you wouldn't necessarily have had before. I'm honestly terrified of the European ruleset, it seems to me like that's putting a ceiling over our heads: narrowing our definition of skill, and therefore stopping us from going far beyond that.
~TL;DR~
Stages are pieces of mindgames
Take away all CPs, you've taken away the freedom to that piece of the mindgame
Only neutrals is extremely limiting the potential of players as a competitive whole.
Let the flaming begin.
We had about 6 months ago, we had the Six [at the time] Neutrals [PS, FD, FoD (If you want to move any stage off of legal, that one), DL64, and YS], then the CP Stages, which were: Jungle Japes, Corneria, Pokefloats, Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise, Mute City, and KJ64.
I had this argument with PP, about how people are looking at the characters ALONE as pieces of this game, while ignoring a very critical piece of information: this game is played by PEOPLE. People make this game as well as the characters, so we need to include them as well.
It goes back to the guy who spends 100% of his time on FD. Give him a stage that's not FD, and he can't win. Why would we promote that? Stages are pieces of the mindgame players play around, in the fact that people play differently on different stages. Would you play the same on Battlefield that you do on FD? Of course not. Knowing that, and exploiting your opponent's strategies upon these different stages is super important to winning the game, and overall the set.
CPs are instrumental in this mindset, as you get that advantage over the player that you wouldn't necessarily have had before. I'm honestly terrified of the European ruleset, it seems to me like that's putting a ceiling over our heads: narrowing our definition of skill, and therefore stopping us from going far beyond that.
~TL;DR~
Stages are pieces of mindgames
Take away all CPs, you've taken away the freedom to that piece of the mindgame
Only neutrals is extremely limiting the potential of players as a competitive whole.
Let the flaming begin.
Bones0
Smash Legend
I look at it the other way. Counter picks drastically LIMIT the options of a lot of characters while benefiting the person counterpicking in a way that usually takes no more skill than on another stage (recovering from an insane distance on Mute City as Peach is just as easy as recovering on any other stage, but you can do it from much higher percents). All counterpicks do is make it harder for the player who won the previous match to win again.
Ideally, all matches would be perfectly even. However, to have that happen you would strike from all the stages and you would only play that one stage for three games. This doesn't promote enough stage variety as players will only need to be capable of winning on a single stage. Thus, we have DSR to ensure at least 3 different stages can be chosen (excluding saltiness/agreements obviously). It's stupid to strike the entire stage list though because stages like Mushroom Kingdom will be struck 99.9% of the time. Same goes for Brinstar, Mute City, and Rainbow Cruise. They are so biased towards certain characters it would always be struck. The neutrals, while some obviously provide advantages, are largely what they are: neutral.
I've seen Peaches counterpick Foxes to Yoshi's and vice versa. Whether or not a stage is balanced can easily be determined by what the players want to play on. The solution, therefore, should be to strike from a list of reasonably balanced stages to ensure the three most balanced stages are played on. If changing characters wasn't so uncommon, I would also want the rules to be changed that both players must select characters prior to stage striking, rather than after. It doesn't make sense for a player to strike a bunch of stages thinking their opponent is using one character when they can easily change and completely turn the tables on the whole striking process (I'm speaking about counterpick striking; I know characters are chosen before striking for game 1).
Also, I figured 121212 striking would benefit the player striking second. They know what their opponent has already struck so they can work off of that. I assumed the reasoning behind "1221 striking is better" would still apply, but you would just extend it to 122112.
Ideally, all matches would be perfectly even. However, to have that happen you would strike from all the stages and you would only play that one stage for three games. This doesn't promote enough stage variety as players will only need to be capable of winning on a single stage. Thus, we have DSR to ensure at least 3 different stages can be chosen (excluding saltiness/agreements obviously). It's stupid to strike the entire stage list though because stages like Mushroom Kingdom will be struck 99.9% of the time. Same goes for Brinstar, Mute City, and Rainbow Cruise. They are so biased towards certain characters it would always be struck. The neutrals, while some obviously provide advantages, are largely what they are: neutral.
I've seen Peaches counterpick Foxes to Yoshi's and vice versa. Whether or not a stage is balanced can easily be determined by what the players want to play on. The solution, therefore, should be to strike from a list of reasonably balanced stages to ensure the three most balanced stages are played on. If changing characters wasn't so uncommon, I would also want the rules to be changed that both players must select characters prior to stage striking, rather than after. It doesn't make sense for a player to strike a bunch of stages thinking their opponent is using one character when they can easily change and completely turn the tables on the whole striking process (I'm speaking about counterpick striking; I know characters are chosen before striking for game 1).
Also, I figured 121212 striking would benefit the player striking second. They know what their opponent has already struck so they can work off of that. I assumed the reasoning behind "1221 striking is better" would still apply, but you would just extend it to 122112.
Bing
Smash Master
I think we're almost all in agreement that Rainbow Cruise should be banned, but I dont think Brinstar should be banned though, its a pretty solid stage and can prove to be beneficial to either player, so its a decent counter pick, I agree with Hax otherwise on his list for the most part.
YS, FS, FoD, FD, BF, PS, DL64(<3) as neutrals
Brinstar, KJ64, Mute City as counters
btw i think it would be interesting to add Peach's Castle as a counterpick. I dunno, could be interesting...
YS, FS, FoD, FD, BF, PS, DL64(<3) as neutrals
Brinstar, KJ64, Mute City as counters
btw i think it would be interesting to add Peach's Castle as a counterpick. I dunno, could be interesting...
@ 1221 striking, I often find that i like having the final strike better. whereas you argue that the player striking second knows what 1 stage the opponent has already struck, the first player then knows what 2 stages the opponent has struck. i'd rather do 1212 which truly benefits player 2 which makes more sense considering P1 has port priority.
you guys are probably right about hax jungle 64. i'm starting to think armada's ruleset is the best because it strikes from the 5 fairest stages while still allowing PS, another fair stage, as a CP. this is an example of an acceptable CP because PS would be an opening stage but there can't be an even amount of stages to strike from.
you guys are probably right about hax jungle 64. i'm starting to think armada's ruleset is the best because it strikes from the 5 fairest stages while still allowing PS, another fair stage, as a CP. this is an example of an acceptable CP because PS would be an opening stage but there can't be an even amount of stages to strike from.
Kason Birdman
Smash Champion
I think rainbow cruise can stay.
brinstar I am iffy about but it should stay if RC stays.
brinstar I am iffy about but it should stay if RC stays.
Bones0
Smash Legend
I'm pretty confident 1221 is better for striking. I used to just do 1212 until a bunch of people told me 1221 was more fair and they explained it to me for like 30 minutes. lol I'll see if I can find the thread where they essentially mathematically proved its fairness. I don't think port authority is nearly measureable in benefit to having an advantageous strike (unless it's Marth dittos maybe lol).
Either way, yeah, I'd be happy with the Euro rule set. Never been too fond of KJ64 anyway because of accidental barrel suicides where you didn't even know you landed in it, plus the ledges are pretty lulzy and stalling is mad easy. I still think counterpicks should be struck for though.
Edit: Nvm about the 2 bans; just realized it won't work.
Either way, yeah, I'd be happy with the Euro rule set. Never been too fond of KJ64 anyway because of accidental barrel suicides where you didn't even know you landed in it, plus the ledges are pretty lulzy and stalling is mad easy. I still think counterpicks should be struck for though.
Edit: Nvm about the 2 bans; just realized it won't work.
Zodiac
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2005
- Messages
- 3,557
Neither of these stages have random elements in them and make for unique counter picks, even though I hate rainbow cruise and am not a big fan of brinstar there is no reason for either to be banned. they are legit counter picks for the character advantages they can offer.
Pi
Smash Hero
lol@ the prospect of truly 'neutral' stages
no stage is neutral, determining how 'neutral' a stage has to be to be considered a 'neutral' isn't going to be easy, and likewise for determining what stages aren't 'neutral'
most people don't play on CP's enough to really understand how 'neutral' they actually are
and it's not like a single CP stage is determining the set, you still have to win on the 'neutral' to win the set.
no stage is neutral, determining how 'neutral' a stage has to be to be considered a 'neutral' isn't going to be easy, and likewise for determining what stages aren't 'neutral'
most people don't play on CP's enough to really understand how 'neutral' they actually are
and it's not like a single CP stage is determining the set, you still have to win on the 'neutral' to win the set.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Stages don't have to be random to be insanely unfair towards some characters. Many stages that are practically unanimously banned have no random elements (at least none that impact gameplay in any major way). Fourside (UFO), Mushroom Kingdom, Mushroom Kingdom II (Birdo), Big Blue, Poke Floats, Yoshi's Island 64, and Hyrule Temple. That's just off the top of my head.
This actually what I don't like. Sets are largely dependent on whoever wins the first game because unless the match is fairly lopsided players typically win on their counterpick. Shouldn't we be striving for the 3 most fair stages rather than 1 fair stage and 2 extremely unfair stages? Just because each player gets an unfair stage obviously balances it out, but it becomes largely pointless so we might as well play one game sets. As far as no stage actually being neutral, obviously there are still advantages, but neutral is simply a reference to the least radically unfair stages. If there were only two characters in the game, there should be 3 neutrals. Since we have more matchup possibilities the same three stages wouldn't be the 3 most neutral for that matchup so we have the 6-7 most neutral for all matchups, and let people strike stages from there.
CableCho57
Smash Lord
ban brinstar, crap is random and wack
keep rainbow cruise, melee should have one stage thats really interesting plus the stage movement ISNT random
keep rainbow cruise, melee should have one stage thats really interesting plus the stage movement ISNT random
Ripple
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you guys are doing the exact same thing the brawl community is doing.
getting rid of stages just because they are polar or "because I(most people) don't like it"
you don't do that. who cares if your character can't play on a certain stage or stages. THAT MEANS YOUR CHARACTER HAS A FLAW. it may not be a big one but it is a flaw. you guys are attempting to get rid of all the flaws your character has.
this is a big no no.
removing elements in the game that are not objectively seen as "degenerate" should not be banned.
was mute city ever seen as over centralizing? how about KOngo jungle? hightly doubtful. there is no reason it should be banned.
getting rid of stages just because they are polar or "because I(most people) don't like it"
you don't do that. who cares if your character can't play on a certain stage or stages. THAT MEANS YOUR CHARACTER HAS A FLAW. it may not be a big one but it is a flaw. you guys are attempting to get rid of all the flaws your character has.
this is a big no no.
removing elements in the game that are not objectively seen as "degenerate" should not be banned.
was mute city ever seen as over centralizing? how about KOngo jungle? hightly doubtful. there is no reason it should be banned.
hungrybox
Smash Legend
I'm more than down for banning brinstar and RC
but i'm a jiggs player so I'm biased
but i'm a jiggs player so I'm biased
D
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Ripple
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there is nothing wrong with winning by a time out. its a legitimate way to win as deemed by the rules.
KJ64 is anything but over centralizing for peach and timing out.
same could be said for mute city. mute city is extremly in favor peach, but is it "pich peach or lose"? jiggs can do well against her there. samus, fox, maybe some others
Acidile
Smash Journeyman
I was never really a huge fan of tons of stage bans, but the more this game develops the more these fringe CPs are making a huuge difference on certain matchups, making winning the first match increasingly important imo.
What's wrong with striking down from 7 stages to 3, or using 5 stages + PS counterpick?
What's wrong with striking down from 7 stages to 3, or using 5 stages + PS counterpick?
ss118
Smash Master
Let's do it like this.
Ban Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise, and Kongo Jungle 64.
Only legal stages will be FD, Battlefield, FoD, YS, DL, and PS. First player strikes one, second player strikes two, then first player strikes again. Last two stages are put on random UNLESS both players can initially agree to one.
Ban Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise, and Kongo Jungle 64.
Only legal stages will be FD, Battlefield, FoD, YS, DL, and PS. First player strikes one, second player strikes two, then first player strikes again. Last two stages are put on random UNLESS both players can initially agree to one.
ss118
Smash Master
How about "it undermines the viablility of certain characters to the point of 'if I win the first match versus that character, they lose.'"?
Ripple
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why didn't you strike that stage or BAN it if your character can not play there? if your character can not play on 2 stages then thats your characters flaw. they can't adapt to stages.
if you know your character can not play a certain stage, it is your responsibility as a player to play on a median of bais. something FSLS allows
and if you haven't figured it out already, the CP system is severly flawed
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
_ToAsT_
Smash Apprentice
I don't understand why you'd want Brinstar banned since you play Jiggs. Thats like a Falco wanting to ban FD. I can see wanting RC banned though.
True story: Some fox player was going against a really good Jiggs player. The fox player knew he wouldn't win, so he went to KJ64. There he shot lasers the entire time from one side of the stage and when Jiggs would finally make it near him, he'd jump on a platform, move to the other side, and do the same thing. Of course the Jiggs quit, went to a neutral stage , and won. Point is KJ64 can be used to camp and stall so easily with the right match up.RC is just a bad stage to play on imo, but I can see Brinstar staying. Its a fun stage that can help you win with the right character. The lava isn't anymore unfair than the cloud that comes by on Yoshi's story. Sometimes its there, sometimes it isn't. Counter picking will really only help if you're somewhat as good as your opponent.
metalreflectslime
Chemistry PhD Programs?
Ownapalooza, GSG, DGDTJ in Concord banned RC and Brinstar. Now we just need Pink Reaper and PockyD to come in here and **** the arguments. 
That's what happened with Pokefloats.
Sure, it's not a very popular stage, but everyone that I know around here loves it, and the best reason that it was given the ban was because "you can fall through the one pixel on the seal."
I mean, come on. Battlefield screws up more people per day than the seal has ever done since the game began.
But anyway.
Yes, I agree, people pretty much say "I want this stage gone because I don't like it."