Welcome to Mario Land: The Mario Stage Discussion. Now Discussing: Frigate Orpheon

The stage you play on and how you control it is a very important factor in brawl. In some cases, in can make or break the match or the entire set. This thread will dedicated to helping Mario players see which stage options they have for the stage and which stages are good or bad against which character.

What to Discuss

• Pros and Cons of each stage
• What Mario can abuse on the stage and things to look out for
• Rate the stage on a scale from 1-10, 10 being the best stage for Mario to go to
• Who to CP this stage against
• Who to ban this stage against
• Who not to CP this stage against (not a good stage to CP against but not bad enough to ban)

To make it simple, I will list the stages and we will discuss them in order if nobody speaks up. If you want to discuss a stage before it's time, please speak up.

List of Stages

• Battlefield
• Final Destination
• Smashville
• Yoshi's Island
• Lylat Cruise
• Pokemon Stadium
• Delfino Plaza
• Frigate Orpheon
• Castle Siege
• Battleship Halberd
• Brinstar
• Rainbow Cruise
• Pictochat
• Pokemon Stadium 2

Pro:
Good platform game
Able to efficiently platform camp people
Dair provides good platform pressure
Supports air game
Can UpB to platforms for less chance of punishment
Cape glide shenanigans
Tip of Utilt hits enemies on platforms

Con:
Platforms make it harder to edgeguard
Other characters can benefit more on platforms
Gets wrecked by characters that have much better air games than him

CP: ROB, Dedede, Lucario, C. Falcon, ICs and Diddy if you want.
Don't CP: Snake, Bowser, Kirby
Ban: Peach, Marth

Overall rating: 9/10


Pro:
Lot of space for camping
Stops other players from air campy games
Large blast zones help Mario keep alive
Good against linear characters not named D3 or ICs
Limits other character's air camp options

Con:
Stage is very ground oriented, which can be bad for Mario
No platforms to work with
Lip can mess up recoveries
Can easily get outcamped and gets wrecked by characters with stronger camp games
Large blast zones make it harder to land kills
Limits ledge options

Ban: Diddy, Falco, ICs, Dedede, TL, Fox, Wolf, Link, Pit, ROB, Yoshi
CP: MK, Marth, Wario, Snake, Peach, Ganon, Bowser, Ike
Don't CP: ground oriented, campy characters

Overall rating: 5/10


Pro:
Good for a slow pace game
Able to time out
Traps on stage you can use

Con:
Ledge can mess you up
Other characters do a better job at timing people out
Other characters can abuse the traps in this stage better

Ban: Nobody
CP: Nobody in particular

Other notes: This stage is more dependent on how a character can use the stage mechanics. Doesn't favor/hinder most characters overall.

Overall Rating: 5/10


Pro:
Slopes can mess up CGer's
Slopes can mess up other characters projectile games, but not Mario's
Can wall jump to help recovery
Turn Blocks can be used for UThrow/UTilt/USmash > jab locks > near-infinite slope jab locks if you can land it

Con:
Not good against characters with disjoints
Ghost can mess up edgeguarding/gimp attempts

Ban: Lucario, Sonic, Donkey Kong
CP: Zelda, Ganon, ROB, Fox, Falco, Wolf, Diddy Kong, Yoshi
Don't CP: Olimar, Toon Link

Overall Rating: 7/10


Pro:
Low ceiling makes Usmash more useful
Have moves that can kill at higher percents on this stage
Camping under the center of the stage is very effective
Can SH dair to shield pressure the opponent on the platform

Con:
Low ceiling makes you die at lower percents
Can be sharked

Ban: Luigi, Olimar, Snake, Ike
CP: Jiggs, PT (Watch out for Charizard), Samus, Sonic, Kirby, Peach, DK, Bowser
Don't CP: D3, ROB, MK (sharking)

Other notes:
Make sure you SDI the laser if it hits you.
The claw is gay. Try to avoid it.

Overall Rating: 8/10

Inferno3044 said:

8/10 sounds way too high. Especially if you're using the statement "For the most part there's better places to CP when the time comes down to it." To me, SV is used as the normal game 1 stage. I have heard many people say "you wanna just go to smashville?" SV is also basically a substitute FD. Most characters people take here is because FD is banned. Mario does benefit from the platform to some extent and that it's smaller but not much.

6/10. I would only go to this stage if I want the flat terrain and my opponent banned FD.

Click to expand...

Pro:
Can utilize platforms efficiently for air camping
Slant can make edgeguarding easier
Slanted terrain helps us/gives diversity to fireballs
Can UpB onto platforms

Con:
High ceiling makes it hard for Usmash kills
Can easily be poked through platforms
Slant can gimp us
Battlefield's layout is better for most MUs

CP: Fox, Falco, Wolf, ICs, Sonic, Link, Ganon, DeDeDe
Ban: Nobody really. Most characters have better stages
Don't CP: Snake, DK, G&W, Bowser, Ike

Overall Rating: 7/10

Btw, if I missed any stages or there are stages that people use in your area that isn't on this list please tell me.

Battlefield is fine with me.

Well I guess I'll start it off by listing a few thing just off the top of my head.

Pro:

Good platform game
Able to efficiently platform camp people
Dair provides good platform pressure
Supports air game
Can UpB to platforms for less chance of punishment
Cape glide shenanigans

Con:

Can't hit enemies on platforms while grounded
Other characters can benefit more on platforms
Gets wrecked by characters that have much better air games than him

Ban: Peach. She is really good here and can abuse the platforms in many ways. Marth also benefits from them way more than Mario does and I would ban it against him.

CP: Mostly characters that are heavily ground based. Snake, ROB, Dedede, and Bowser come to mind for me. ICs are also good to take here.

Don't CP: G&W. His air game wrecks yours, but there are worse stages for him to take you. Same with MK but some people will still take MK here.

Other: Most people consider this stage to be Mario's best neutral. So just in general it's a good stage to be able to play well. I'd give it a 7 or 8.

That sounds about right, Inferno.

I actually wouldn't take Kirby here also, if I could help it.

DO not take bowser to BF

Inferno said:

Can't hit enemies on platforms while grounded

Click to expand...

You can with utilt. I do it all the time.

Juushichi said:

That sounds about right, Inferno.

I actually wouldn't take Kirby here also, if I could help it.

Click to expand...

Would you ban it vs. Kirby or just not take him here?

-Citrus said:

DO not take bowser to BF

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Care to elaborate?

Calebyte said:

You can with utilt. I do it all the time.

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I did not know that

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=276611

Just for reference.

Bowser has LOTS of shenanigans on BF. His Usmash is 20x better and leads into some guaranteed kills in some circumstances, among other things. I still take Bowser there though, since it's my favorite stage.

Any more pros and cons? Characters that are good to CP here?

I mainly recommend against taking Snake to this stage, since a huge number of your kills hinge on land trap juggles in this specific matchup. That's the main matchup I wouldn't take to BF from personal experience.

Do take Metaknight and G&W here though. It doesn't really look like it since they have better platform games, but you REALLY need platforms to properly maneuver against them. Especially when recovering. On FD, it's too easy to get ***** by the stronger land trap options those two characters have.

Honestly I CP -every- character here. Pretty much. On most systems you can force Diddy to take you here on starter. (Unless that Diddy likes YI, most don't) It's rather good against him. You usually end up here against Ice Climbers too, and it's a good place to be against them. I feel like this stage has a similar gameplay as Lylat, with the added bonus of being able to walljump to put more variety into getting back onstage.

That's all I can think of, I don't have any characters that I take here specifically over others, just everyone really. Definitely a 9 out of 10 for Mario.

A2ZOMG said:

I mainly recommend against taking Snake to this stage, since a huge number of your kills hinge on land trap juggles in this specific matchup. That's the main matchup I wouldn't take to BF from personal experience.

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I would take Snake here. Really easy to fireball camp with the help of platforms. The top platform is really safe vs. Snake.

Do take Metaknight and G&W here though. It doesn't really look like it since they have better platform games, but you REALLY need platforms to properly maneuver against them. Especially when recovering. On FD, it's too easy to get ***** by the stronger land trap options those two characters have.

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I wouldn't take them here. There are better stages to use against them.

XeroXen said:

Honestly I CP -every- character here. Pretty much. On most systems you can force Diddy to take you here on starter. (Unless that Diddy likes YI, most don't) It's rather good against him. You usually end up here against Ice Climbers too, and it's a good place to be against them. I feel like this stage has a similar gameplay as Lylat, with the added bonus of being able to walljump to put more variety into getting back onstage.

That's all I can think of, I don't have any characters that I take here specifically over others, just everyone really. Definitely a 9 out of 10 for Mario.

Click to expand...

Is this mostly personal?

Think of the whole roster of characters to take here.

I don't know what Snakes you play, but Mario really can't camp Snake unless the stage is one of the gay transformations on PS1. Your options below you are too limited to really consider that, and it also doesn't help that your shield is below average when you're sitting on the platforms. Mario isn't G&W or Metaknight who have D-airs that are unwise to challenge directly, and furthermore the two characters have more horizontal mobility and ways of jumping higher. If you think Mario can camp Snake with any real efficiency, by that logic Mario should have the advantage against Olimar, a character he CLEARLY camps better. Both cases are completely false in case I'm not being obvious.

For the most part, you have to beat up Snake legitimately and have ways to actually kill him to make up for his obscene damage and other unfairly good moves which are fairly likely to put him in the percent lead. BF removes some of your better options for killing him should Snake decide that it's fine to sit on the platforms out of range of your Smashes.

And yes there are probably better stages to use against MK and G&W. Like what? FD in many ways is a lot worse for Mario in those matchups when you consider his recovery. Smashville is probably slightly better than BF since you can abuse the platform in other ways that MK and G&W can't. YI is arguably better since the ghost is more to Mario's benefit (but the high ceiling is not). Otherwise, I pretty much would definitely take MK and G&W to BF. They get so much more out of so many more stages it's not funny. BF's standard terrain and universal conveniences are a blessing when considering the lack of anything that's clearly better.

A2ZOMG said:

I don't know what Snakes you play, but Mario really can't camp Snake unless the stage is one of the gay transformations on PS1. Your options below you are too limited to really consider that, and it also doesn't help that your shield is below average when you're sitting on the platforms. Mario isn't G&W or Metaknight who have D-airs that are unwise to challenge directly, and furthermore the two characters have more horizontal mobility and ways of jumping higher. If you think Mario can camp Snake with any real efficiency, by that logic Mario should have the advantage against Olimar, a character he CLEARLY camps better. Both cases are completely false in case I'm not being obvious.

For the most part, you have to beat up Snake legitimately and have ways to actually kill him to make up for his obscene damage and other unfairly good moves which are fairly likely to put him in the percent lead. BF removes some of your better options for killing him should Snake decide that it's fine to sit on the platforms out of range of your Smashes.

And yes there are probably better stages to use against MK and G&W. Like what? FD in many ways is a lot worse for Mario in those matchups when you consider his recovery. Smashville is probably slightly better than BF since you can abuse the platform in other ways that MK and G&W can't. YI is arguably better since the ghost is more to Mario's benefit (but the high ceiling is not). Otherwise, I pretty much would definitely take MK and G&W to BF. They get so much more out of so many more stages it's not funny. BF's standard terrain and universal conveniences are a blessing when considering the lack of anything that's clearly better.

Click to expand...

Not going back to the Olimar discussion. I use the platforms of BF to camp from a distance. As they close in I move. If they are close and make a mistake, I capitalize on it.

Btw I think Falcon is good to take here. What about Lucario? Pit? Spacies? Ness/Lucas? Just throwing names out.

EDIT: Xero put this as a 9/10. Anybody have anything to say?

Whatever Snakes you're playing must suck at using grenades and aerials. Camping him is too unrewarding for how many ways Snake can punish you HARD when he knows where you're going to land.

BF gets a 9/10 from me as well. Just don't CP Snake there. Halberd, Brinstar, and FD are significantly better against him.

Um... A2Z u must be insane if you think that CPing SNAKE to halberd is better than BF.

Halberd is easily one of snake's best stages

You know what's insane? The number of times I've played Mario vs Snake on many different stages, and the fact that I haven't even uploaded a single one of those matches for you guys (the majority of which happen to be offline footage).

Halberd is better against Snake because of the lower ceiling. The difference of percent you need to kill on Halberd is significantly more beneficial for Mario than it is for Snake, and the platform for the most part is not a huge interference when juggling him. Fireballs also happen to be more useful on Halberd as well thanks to some terrain shenanigans. You can't count on it, but the laser on Halberd is also marginally more helpful for Mario. Depending on positioning, it will stop Snake from tossing grenades at you, while you can throw fireballs through it.

It's by far a better stage than BF against Snake due to how much easier it is to kill him on that stage. I suggest you get better at Halberd, and remember to never CP MK there, the character who ACTUALLY is the best on Halberd.

Snake's grenades are slightly more annoying on Halberd, but it's a small price to pay for an easier time juggling and killing him. Grenade explosions shouldn't be hitting you frequently in the first place.

A2ZOMG said:

You know what's insane? The number of times I've played Mario vs Snake on many different stages, and the fact that I haven't even uploaded a single one of those matches for you guys (the majority of which happen to be offline footage).

Halberd is better against Snake because of the lower ceiling. The difference of percent you need to kill on Halberd is significantly more beneficial for Mario than it is for Snake, and the platform for the most part is not a huge interference when juggling him. Fireballs also happen to be more useful on Halberd as well thanks to some terrain shenanigans. You can't count on it, but the laser on Halberd is also marginally more helpful for Mario. Depending on positioning, it will stop Snake from tossing grenades at you, while you can throw fireballs through it.

It's by far a better stage than BF against Snake due to how much easier it is to kill him on that stage. I suggest you get better at Halberd, and remember to never CP MK there, the character who ACTUALLY is the best on Halberd.

Snake's grenades are slightly more annoying on Halberd, but it's a small price to pay for an easier time juggling and killing him. Grenade explosions shouldn't be hitting you frequently in the first place.

Click to expand...

The low ceiling is the main reason why its one of snakes best stage... so have fun dieing to utilt at like what less than 100% possibly? lol I don't understand how halberd makes it easier for you to juggle snake than on BF. The more platforms = the easier to juggle in my honest opinion. But eh I guess it comes down to personal preferences.

Yeah, A2 is definitely crazy. I would ban Halberd against Snake

A2ZOMG said:

Whatever Snakes you're playing must suck at using grenades and aerials. Camping him is too unrewarding for how many ways Snake can punish you HARD when he knows where you're going to land.

BF gets a 9/10 from me as well. Just don't CP Snake there. Halberd, Brinstar, and FD are significantly better against him.

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You right. I do camp Snake at times, but not BF. It's been so long since I fought a Snake and I fought one today. Better to take him to Brinstar or a place with more room like FD.

JuxtaposeX said:

Yeah, A2 is definitely crazy. I would ban Halberd against Snake

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I agree. His Utilt is already stupid enough. You want it to kill you at even lower percents?

Gonna change the OP. Tell me if I miss anything.

Next Stage is FD. Discuss.

Man, FD. It's pretty much a mixed bag, imo. Great for some matchups, terrible for others.

The only thing I really hate about FD is the awkward lip under the ledge, which can make low recovery perilous if you don't sweet-spot the ledge just right. We can stall underneath the ledge with wall jumping, but it's pretty risky, and it's a lot harder to WJ back onto the stage compared to BF. I'd say on FD our ledge options are more limited.

FD is a great CP for characters who control platforms better than we do. Also good for depriving opponents of air-camping options.

CP: Metakight, Marth, Wario

Ban: DDD, ICs, Diddy

Pro:
Lot of space for camping
Stops other players from air campy games
Large blast zones help Mario keep alive
Good against linear characters not named D3 or ICs

Con:
Stage is very ground oriented, which can be bad for Mario
No platforms to work with
Lip can mess up recoveries
Can easily get outcamped and gets wrecked by characters with stronger camp games
Large blast zones make it harder to land kills
Limits ledge options

Caleb, I'm gonna have to add group of people I would ban FD.

Ban: Diddy, Falco, ICs, Dedede, TL, Fox, Wolf, Link, Pit, ROB

CP: MK, Marth, Wario, Snake, Peach, Ganon, Bowser, Ike, DK

Don't CP: other ground oriented and campy characters

Overall rating: 5/10. It's really not that good for Mario, but it can be used to halt other people's characters

FD is an amazing stage against really linear characters not named DDD or the Ice Climbers. Ganon, Bowser, and Ike for example are even easier to juggle and edgeguard on this stage without platforms to hide on with shield.

Outside of that, it's meh. Your worst matchups are still pretty bad here if not worse. 5/10

Jimmyfosho said:

The low ceiling is the main reason why its one of snakes best stage... so have fun dieing to utilt at like what less than 100% possibly? lol I don't understand how halberd makes it easier for you to juggle snake than on BF. The more platforms = the easier to juggle in my honest opinion. But eh I guess it comes down to personal preferences.

Click to expand...

If you're complaining about dying to U-tilt at lower percents, you obviously don't know how to play against Snake or how low ceilings work. I don't know how much smaller Halberd is, but say if a stage is 20% smaller than another, it literally takes 1/5 less percent to score a KO. Lower ceilings by far are more useful for weaker but reliable KO moves as opposed to strong ones that aren't as reliable. I'm pretty sure you guys understand how Super Sudden Death works. It's the exact same concept, just more extreme.

At any rate, Snake kills you like 10% earlier on Halberd, while you kill him like 20% earlier with Up-smash. Halberd is significantly more helpful for Mario when it comes to kills. Instead of waiting until 150-160 once you throw him upwards (hell if you really need to, U-tilt becomes viable around those percents on Halberd), you can consider killing Snake at around 130-140 pretty easily. Dying to Snake's U-tilt at around 95 instead of like 105 or something isn't as huge of a deal, since his KOs really don't have good setups. Actually he does have D-throw, but that's more iffy than your land trap juggles on him.

The issue against Snake is the ridiculous amount of damage you need to rack on him to score a KO. BF however makes it harder to kill Snake because he can B reverse on reaction to you jumping on the platforms when you're trying to juggle him with Up-smash for the kill. Not so much on Halberd. Once Snake is at KO percents, he only cares about avoiding your Smashes, and the platforms on BF are actually good for that.

Yes you can platform pressure and if you're lucky start damage combos with aerials, but nobody cares about that when you need kills. Platforms are only marginally helpful for starting combos. They are a real hindrance for Mario when you're setting up land trap KOs.

Both Juushichi and I have CPed Snakes to Halberd with success, and we both agree that the low ceiling is significantly more helpful for Mario.

In all of A2's matchup/stage arguments, Mario is being played by Chuck Norris, and whoever hes fighting against is being played by someone like Reducas or something.

You're silly. If you can't make a legitimate argument, that only proves I'm more right, and the other side is indefensible. I've played vs Snake too much. My point in case is you suck against him on BF, and that there's many other stages, Halberd included, where Mario does better.

Save the Halberd talk for when it comes. We are talking about FD.

@ A2 - You get trolled so easily

Is there anything else needed to be discussed for this or can we move on?

I think we can move on, FD/BF have been discussed to death in the past. Can we do PS1 next? It's a starter.

nnono



YI




We need it.

I'm going to respect Jux's post since his was first. After that we will do YI.

Tbh, I don't know much about PS1 myself. I just know that the ledges are dumb and you can do cape glide shenanigans with the platforms.

PS1 is okay. If you really want to time out a slow character, this stage is fairly easy to run the clock on if you're ahead.

Take Olimar here if Frigate is banned, since the large stage and platforms are good against him. Other than that BF is usually a better stage for Mario.

5/10

i do not like playing wolf on PS1i always get to the last stock and lose

I actually do see PS1 used a lot to play slower games/clock people out. Plank vs. Dapuffster and M2K vs. Ninjalink were both on here. If it's a stalling game, then I wouldn't wanna take Wario here. Free fart charging = bad.

I want to add GW for FD too honestly.

But uh, PS1... I don't ever really use it as Mario. There's usually no reason to. Probably a tertiary CP if that. I can't even think of anyone to take here.

5/10.

Halberd is much better for Mario than at lot of you realize, but I'll wait till we talk about it to give more detail.

Double posting like a champ.

Halberd can be discussed after YI if you want.

Need more focus on PS1. There's really not much info given. I do know that is it a stage that isn't used often but there's gotta be more than what we have.