Welcome to Mario Land: The Mario Stage Discussion. Now Discussing: Frigate Orpheon

[Inferno3044]

To counter the claw, when I see it moving I always plan for it. Sometimes you can tell who it's going to hit, but not all of the time. Jiggs is still a good choice to take here. Marth actually wouldn't be good bad to take here. Peach kinda since her main kill move is horizontal (fair, or bair if fresh).

I wanna wrap Halberd up. People give some last ratings/CP choices/ban choices/etc.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Like I said before, Mario is being played by Chuck Norris.
This is a CHARACTER match up discussion, not a PLAYER match up discussion. "You lose because you did not massively outplay him." is not a good argument, and will not help players improve.
You can almost switch Mario and Snake in your posts, and it would still be "valid" according to you.

Since when are my arguments implying that you have to outplay Snake to benefit from Halberd more than he does? Snake has to outplay you to actually do anything.

Yes Snake gets UNFAIR reward for outplaying you. This is why he's a top ranked character. Normally a character like Snake wouldn't be good, but the fact he is good is simply a statement as to the ridiculous amount of reward he gets for his limited playstyle.

Mario doesn't really have to outplay Snake to fundamentally land hits and create openings that potentially lead to juggle kills. He does have to work unnecessarily hard though to rack the damage necessary to kill Snake though, and he's inevitably going to make mistakes that suck.

Taking Snake to Halberd evens the playing field. You don't have to work as hard to kill him. Snake still has to outplay you at specific moments to kill you, and the probability that he actually outplays you in a way that kills you earlier is extremely low, unless you're simply a much worse player than the Snake.

You guys really have to stop overrating Snake's U-tilt. Yes it's utterly stupid in many ways, but it's unsafe on whiff, and it's extremely obvious when he's going to use it. He's NOT going to kill you earlier with it on Halberd unless you let him outplay you in an extremely obvious way.

The same thing applies for taking people to low ceilings in general. Good vertical killers that can be landed unpredictably or reliably benefit the most from this stage, and mathematically really powerful vertical killers don't benefit a whole ton. Snake's U-tilt is stupid in many ways, but those ways do not include unpredictably or reliably. He only just punishes effectively with it when the right mistake is made. He doesn't really have the mobility or flexibility to actually force you to get hit by it.

 

[Inferno3044]

It really is no use arguing with A2. He doesn't move from his opinion whether it's right or not.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Inferno, I think you just suck at the Snake matchup and never have considered counterpicking him to Halberd especially since you suck at it, which would explain why you think getting killed earlier by Snake's U-tilt actually matters and that camping him works. Juu and I both agree that Halberd is better for Mario than it is for Snake.

 

[Nitrix]

I come to Mario boards and see people suggesting CP`ing Snake to Halberd.

.....What? o_o

 

[Calebyte]

Welp, this discussion is going nowhere, I suggest we move on.

 

[Inferno3044]

I'm with Caleb. This isn't getting anywhere. A2 is the more or less the only one who really thinks you should CP Snake here while almost everyone else thinks you should ban it. A2 put 8/10. I'd say it's more of a 7 but I'll put 8 on there unless anyone disagrees. Jw, what do you guys think of taking GW here? He's extremely light and normally needs a trap/hard read to kill with a smash.

Next stage is smashville once I put up the info.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Snake needs a fairly hard read to actually kill with U-tilt as well. It's really not much different from playing G&W on Halberd. They're not going to be killing you any more easily with their vertical killers unless you let them.

Actually on second thought, G&W's D-air is much more annoying on Halberd. G&W's D-air is the reason you should think twice before CPing him at Halberd, since he has quite a few reliable ways to land it, and it's a fairly good vertical KO move.

Halberd makes a bigger difference for kill percents against Snake and other heavies though mathematically. Vs lightweights, the difference between CPing a small ceiling and a normal ceiling is more like 10-15%. Vs Snake it's about 20-25%.

You just do math, realize that Snake and other heavies usually require you to screw up to get kills. Snake and the other heavies aren't killing you earlier 95% of the time unless you play badly against them, while your kills usually will happen through fairly reliable setups.

CP at Halberd: Almost everyone except Metaknight, Olimar, Luigi, ROB. Metaknight is Metaknight. The others have better safe and reliable vertical KO setups than you do (note: NOT their strongest vertical KO moves.). CPing Falco here is both good and bad. Good on the flying transformation. Bad on the ship.

Also Mario benefits from Halberd more than Fox does. Earlier B-throw kills > Fox's earlier U-smash kills. Killing earlier with U-smashes in general isn't that huge of a deal for either Mario or Fox on Halberd in that matchup. Falco is annoying on low ceilings when he's the kind of character who basically does so much damage that he can kill you with his entire amazing moveset.

 

[Calebyte]

Smashville is okay. I miss not being able to wall jump.

Idk, I think it's the most neutral stage in the game, and not really beneficial or detrimental to Mario. Characters that benefit from platforms usually ban FD so this is usually where I end up taking Marth, MK, Bowser, etc...

 

[JuxtaposeX]

I used to love SV, until I learned a bunch of walljump shenanigans

 

[Inferno3044]

I wouldn't take MK here. This is considered his best neutral because he can really abuse the platform. Him being able to safely SL off stage or nado from anywhere and safely land on a platform is dumb. All in all it's a smaller SV with a moving platform and no lip. I don't know what shenanigans you're talking about.. Please enlighten me. You don't really ban or CP this vs. anyone because you normally would ban/CP FD. I wouldn't take MK here though because he can abuse the platform very well.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Smashville is a good stage against DDD and the Ice Climbers.

For the most part there's better places to CP when the time comes down to it but it's a fair stage for Mario overall and worthwhile to go to on typical starter lists. It's never a horrible stage to take anyone, although I personally hate the Mario ditto even more on this stage.

8/10

 

[Inferno3044]

8/10 sounds way too high. Especially if you're using the statement "For the most part there's better places to CP when the time comes down to it." To me, SV is used as the normal game 1 stage. I have heard many people say "you wanna just go to smashville?" SV is also basically a substitute FD. Most characters people take here is because FD is banned. Mario does benefit from the platform to some extent and that it's smaller but not much.

6/10. I would only go to this stage if I want the flat terrain and my opponent banned FD.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

8/10 sounds way too high. Especially if you're using the statement "For the most part there's better places to CP when the time comes down to it." To me, SV is used as the normal game 1 stage. I have heard many people say "you wanna just go to smashville?" SV is also basically a substitute FD. Most characters people take here is because FD is banned. Mario does benefit from the platform to some extent and that it's smaller but not much.

6/10. I would only go to this stage if I want the flat terrain and my opponent banned FD.

This just summed up the entire stage. There's nothing else to talk about.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I say 8/10 because there aren't any matchups that are really made bad on this stage. It's an all purpose stage you can't go wrong with for the most part. Similar to BF in a sense, just not quite as exploitable for Mario, and it's also more desirable to take Snake to Smashville as opposed to BF.

In the event you're playing with double blind picks, Smashville is even more desirable as a safe stage choice.

 

[Inferno3044]

I say 8/10 because there aren't any matchups that are really made bad on this stage. It's an all purpose stage you can't go wrong with for the most part. Similar to BF in a sense, just not quite as exploitable for Mario, and it's also more desirable to take Snake to Smashville as opposed to BF.

In the event you're playing with double blind picks, Smashville is even more desirable as a safe stage choice.

There also arent any MUs that are really good on this stage. It's eh. The smaller size and moving platform make it a tad better for Mario overall than FD

 

[Inferno3044]

Smashville looks done. Moving on to Lylat.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Lylat is a less than ideal stage for Mario. Whether or not you pick this stage depends on how much your opposing matchup hates this stage. The high ceiling alone isn't good for Mario. The platforms have average utility for Mario, although they're pretty well spaced for aircamping against characters like Olimar, DDD, and the ICs. The stage tilting is both good and bad for your aerials and fireballs. The stage tilting is to your advantage against spacies though. And of course, Ganondorf dislikes this stage.

5/10 at best, for the most part Battlefield is preferable, though Lylat is slightly better against spacies. Taking Sonic here might not be a bad idea since he'll take even longer to kill you and the platforms should limit some of his air mobility shenanigans. And of course taking Ganondorf here is good.

 

[Naisora]

I don't really cp or use Lylat much because my fireballs always get messed up there, and those low platforms are pretty anoyying for me, but maybe if they are sheilding above we could up tilt and> jab lock? i dunno...

 

[A2ZOMG]

Just stick to D-air for platform pressuring on Lylat. As a rule of thumb, you really can't go wrong with D-air for low platform pressure, especially since it sets up a reliable mixup that lets you punish jump out of shield on a read, aside from the fact it's a solid shield poke in general.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

All I really know about this stage is that it's good against the spacies because the stage can wreck their recovery

 

[fromundaman]

See, if it didn't hurt our recovery, I would love this stage more than BF. There's a bunch of platforms for us to land on (and the platforms on the side allow us to safely UpB from the ledge if we are being pressured too hard, and it will usually work, because seriously, who UpBs from the ledge?) and abuse. We have some pretty good ledge options here, and the fact that this stage messes up recoveries kind of helps our gimping, though the same is true for our opponent.

Also, IDK about you guys, but I don't feel the slants mess up our fireballs; they just allow us to use them differently. If we hit a flat part, then it's a normal fireball. SH and hit a slant? It's a shield. The fireball pretty much becomes an obstacle between you and your opponent. Keep this in mind, because it can be excellent for setting up traps to stop an opponent's approach.

Anyway, I'm rambling, so I'll come back in here tonight after I've actually slept and messed around at a smashfest and actually pay attention to the stuff we can do there.

But yeah, this isn't a bad stage. It's not great, but it's pretty good. The only real drawback is how a stage-tilt at the wrong time can **** our recovery.

 

[A2ZOMG]

High ceiling is bad for Mario. This is an important reason why Lylat is inferior to BF for Mario for many matchups.

 

[Inferno3044]

I'm with Fromund. I don't think they mess up fireballs that much. At least compared to other projectiles. Personally I like the slants. They mess up other character's ground games and I just like uneven terrain in general. I think it's pretty good for Mario.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I despise Lylat as Mario. I'd maybe take Falco there, and that's about it.

Actually, I'd take characters with poor recovery there, it's pretty good for gimping, especially when the side they're recovering to is tilting up.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

Stage is going to gimp you so many times you're ganna rage.

 

[fromundaman]

Meh, the high ceiling doesn't help with killing (Although we live pretty much forever here with good DI), agreed, but it's offset by how much easier gimping is IMO.

Again, I do agree BF is way better, but IMO BF is our best stage anyway. This one's not bad at all though.

You do have to be careful who you bring there though, because bring a good gimper and you're ****ed.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Brinstar is Mario's best stage. Unless the matchup is Metaknight, but that's only one matchup, and MK is always stupid anyway.

Like the only matchup where I really see the high ceiling is actually useful for Mario is against Sonic. Sonic has even less KO power than you do, and the platforms actually are decent in that matchup. So if anything, Lylat is a decent enough stage to take Sonic to.

I wouldn't count on space animals getting gimped on Lylat if they're any good. But the slopes can help you deal with laser camping.

Finally Link isn't bad to take to Lylat since he has relatively low KO power (just don't challenge the D-air), and the tilting stage sometimes is just enough to help make gimping him more consistent. And of course, Ganon gets ***** by odd terrain.

Playing against Snake of course is outright TERRIBLE on Lylat unless you're extremely lucky. The high ceiling AND the platforms ensure that killing him will take forever, while Snake is Snake and will still kill you stupidly early for screwing up. Now if by the odd chance you manage to get the stock lead though, Lylat is a GREAT stage for aircamping him.

 

[fromundaman]

Since we're not discussing Brinstar yet, could you get on skype when you get a chance? If you think Brinstar is Mario's best stage, then I'm obviously not playing that stage right.

 

[Inferno3044]

Since we're not discussing Brinstar yet, could you get on skype when you get a chance? If you think Brinstar is Mario's best stage, then I'm obviously not playing that stage right.

Its really only better for Mario because its bad for a good amount of characters but not mario

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

You guys aren't playing Lylat right because it's amazing. I don't even know how to explain but it's probably one of my best stages.

 

[Inferno3044]

Don't include me in that category. I love Lylat.

 

[Matador]

Same, one of my favorites.

Killing is hard, but gimping is easier.

And omg the platforms.

 

[fromundaman]

You guys aren't playing Lylat right because it's amazing. I don't even know how to explain but it's probably one of my best stages.

THAT explains it! I think we started there both of the MMs we've ever played and you've always wrecked me there.
I don't know how to explain it either... you just kind of **** there. The platforms being at just the right height to UpB everywhere is probably part of it though.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Probably my 2nd best neutral, I CP there if BF is banned generally. I'm really comfortable with the slanting edges, I play on that stage all the time. I think that was the stage I took a game off of Y.b.M. on!

 

[Inferno3044]

This is the stage I

Spoiler

almost

took a game off of Swordgard on.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Same, one of my favorites.

Killing is hard, but gimping is easier.

And omg the platforms.

I consider a strength for Mario the ease of landing a kill move when the moment is right. Making kills harder and making situational gimps somewhat easier is not something I like to count on, unless you're talking about how Olimar and a few other characters get WRECKED on the right side of Frigate's first transformation. The ability Lylat has to gimp people is more about how poorly a player adapts to the stage.

I would however take the ICs to this stage given that you really need to platform camp them a lot. I actually won a tournament match vs the ICs on this stage lol.

Furthermore Xero, I do recall you lost to Hilt once on Lylat, though it probably doesn't mean anything.

 

[Matador]

It's just the positioning of the platforms and the slanting of the stage help me manage my opponent's options better while they're offstage. I feel the same way about the 2nd phase of Halberd.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

can frigate be next? I honestly hate this stage and need to learn it.

 

[SKidd]

I love Lylat. So, so much.