MJG
Smash Hero
Match Up Discussion: Sonic
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Toon Link Match Up Discussion: Sonic!
- Thread starter MJG
- Start date
Thebest1pj
Pinnacle of Projectile Placement.
NH Cody
Smash Champion
I think 55-45 TL's favor. Some would say 60-40 TL's favor but I think this is too generous to TL since Sonic can pressure really well. As sonic, attack TL during the bomb pull animation, and don't give TL any breathing room. Use lots of fair, and don't get reckless with the spindashing and airdodging or else you'll get ***** like Espy in this video second stock. Use ASC, if TL is sitting there shielding then ASC cancel shieldgrab. Most importantly, find patterns in TL's camping and punish him, and use SDC to stay unpredictable, while approaching in different ways. Use spinshot to get behind TL and bair.
As TL, basically do the opposite, camp sonic, if he's running circles around you then use aerials, projectiles and cross up with zair. If sonic up air spring up airs, then dair
this actually works. Sonic will go over the top and die while trying to kill you. It's hilarious.
Other stuff, if you're covering the ground level with arrows and boomerangs then it will be hard for Sonic to approach with dash attack, grounded spin charge, etc. Keep up the projectiles so he can't get to you (obvious). Also keep in mind, Sonic side-B (and so does ASC IIRC) has invincibility frames where it can go through projectiles.
PJ-lol, good sonics won't fall for dumb stuff like Jab > dair.
As TL, basically do the opposite, camp sonic, if he's running circles around you then use aerials, projectiles and cross up with zair. If sonic up air spring up airs, then dair
this actually works. Sonic will go over the top and die while trying to kill you. It's hilarious.Other stuff, if you're covering the ground level with arrows and boomerangs then it will be hard for Sonic to approach with dash attack, grounded spin charge, etc. Keep up the projectiles so he can't get to you (obvious). Also keep in mind, Sonic side-B (and so does ASC IIRC) has invincibility frames where it can go through projectiles.
PJ-lol, good sonics won't fall for dumb stuff like Jab > dair.
Thebest1pj
Pinnacle of Projectile Placement.
Why not? I jabbed him once jumped over his grab and daired him he left himself open lol
MJG
Smash Hero
Jab to dair is just another mix up. I guess X is bad as well 
First time I had ever played a toon link offline. Wouldn't say I'd be worth basing a matchup on.
Quest, as you can see in the vid shadow posted, you can't really just ASC TL just because he is in his shield. ASC releases on frame 17 at the earliest and won't hit him until probably 25ish if you were just outside sword range when you started it. Its plenty of time for him to bair or nair oos to easily beat it. Though charging it just barely out of range can be a good bait if he isn't holding a bomb.
Though shouldn't we be telling toon links how to deal with Sonic(quest) on this board? Toon Link should always be mixing up his landings, nothing is safe against Sonic if he knows you are about to do it. Invincibombing (is that what you guys call it) is a good way to reverse juggles when Sonic is land camping you. Once you have him in the air, you want to punish his landing and keep him in the air. His air speed is great, but his acceleration isn't. Once you catch him, you can lay down some damage and score kills off of juggles.
If you are edgeguarding Sonic, remember that spindash can be VERY damaging (20+ damage and a reversal in positions.kill setups), but it isn't disjointed at all so your aerials will win. It will go through boomerangs and arrows sometimes though. If you can force Sonic to recover with spring, don't forget you can cypher grab him just like snake and he won't be able to recover (unless its smashville lol). Most Sonic's will be able to avoid this, but it limits his options and you will be able to punish if you keep this in mind.
Watch out for kill setups from spindash rush and ASC. Sonic can combo grounded spindashes into Bair at kill percents if you don't DI properly to avoid. If ASC is DIed poorly, it can combo into Uair and kill very early (100%).
I'd say its slightly in Toon Link's favor. He's light(and doesn't kill much better than Sonic), not too hard to punish(baits are reliable) and has an exploitable recovery(if he can't make it back with double jump alone, he is easy to get a bit of damage on).
Quest, ASC doesn't have invincibility. The hitbox in front and below ASC (along its trajectory) will simple go through weak projectiles like toon link's arrows/rangs. Note how it doesn't work on twilight link.
Also what ENSiS said. Sonic and Toon Link are both very mobile with alot of tricks and traps to learn.
MJG
Smash Hero
Can someone explain to me what both spin dashes do? Serious question lol
NH Cody
Smash Champion
Glad you realize thisJab to dair is just another mix up. I guess X is bad as well
lol fine I guess it could work on occasion. People fall for dumb stuff xD
Okay if you say so...I'm not good with the frame data stuff lol
In past matchup threads I've seen people talking about both sides of the matchup. It's useful if you see both sides so you can better understand what your opponent's intentions/weaknesses are.
Yeah that's what I was talking about...sometimes ASC goes through projectiles, I remember espy (or was it tenki) saying something about ASC being able to go through aura sphere and TL's boomerang and arrows sometimes.
EDIT: MJG: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=170844
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=170844
I don't think you want the entire thing explained in this thread, but I assume someone will be along eventually to tl;dr that thread, ENSiS......
but....
Basically one of them shoots downward at an angle immediately. If Sonic has his double jump, he can spinshot (a jump that moves at running speed) or jump cancel into aerials if he was already in the air. This is Spin Charge (SC) and ASC is aerial spin charge. It can do 1 or 2 hits (11 and 7 damage) and combos into aerials easily (not uncommon to go from 0-32 from on combo here). It will kill toon link at about 180 or so if its fresh (revenge kills?). ASC sends opponents up and forward.
Actually nvm... there is a picture:
Basically one of them does a little invincible "hop" and turns into the same thing once it lands.
If you aren't ready to deal with it, it will tear your shield apart and poke. A common way you might get your shield poked is ASC-SDR-Spring. This basically puts two hitboxes at the top of your shield, 1 near the bottom and then one back on top again. If your shield is weak, its not hard to get poked by ASC combos, fair, uair, ftilt and upsmash so play smart and defend yourself with disjoints and projectiles when you can.
Useful tip about spindash, if sonic uses it in the air and doesn't have his double jump, he is STUCK in it. He can wiggle around and change his trajectory a little, but he is stuck for about 2 seconds or until he lands. If you catch a sonic doing this, you can get a free hit with uair/upsmash (look at the vid shadow posted).
Edit: God dangit Quest ninja edit!!
I don't think you want the entire thing explained in this thread, but I assume someone will be along eventually to tl;dr that thread, ENSiS......
but....
Basically one of them shoots downward at an angle immediately. If Sonic has his double jump, he can spinshot (a jump that moves at running speed) or jump cancel into aerials if he was already in the air. This is Spin Charge (SC) and ASC is aerial spin charge. It can do 1 or 2 hits (11 and 7 damage) and combos into aerials easily (not uncommon to go from 0-32 from on combo here). It will kill toon link at about 180 or so if its fresh (revenge kills?). ASC sends opponents up and forward.
Actually nvm... there is a picture:
Basically one of them does a little invincible "hop" and turns into the same thing once it lands.
If you aren't ready to deal with it, it will tear your shield apart and poke. A common way you might get your shield poked is ASC-SDR-Spring. This basically puts two hitboxes at the top of your shield, 1 near the bottom and then one back on top again. If your shield is weak, its not hard to get poked by ASC combos, fair, uair, ftilt and upsmash so play smart and defend yourself with disjoints and projectiles when you can.
Useful tip about spindash, if sonic uses it in the air and doesn't have his double jump, he is STUCK in it. He can wiggle around and change his trajectory a little, but he is stuck for about 2 seconds or until he lands. If you catch a sonic doing this, you can get a free hit with uair/upsmash (look at the vid shadow posted).
Edit: God dangit Quest ninja edit!!
NH Cody
Smash Champion
Tesh, I've been wanting to say this to you for a while now.
You're too slow
You're too slow
Trent
Smash Champion
The best way to play this MU for TL is to time Sonic out.
The best way to play this MU for Sonic is to time the TL out.
The best way to play this MU for Sonic is to time the TL out.
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2008
- Messages
- 10,050
Stages to ban against Sonic in this order: Pictochat, Yoshi's Island Brawl, Frigate
Pictochat: Sonic can do the ISDR on both slopes at the end, and since the stage is so huge, it will give him more breathing room to run away and keep trying. The hazards will also make things difficult because some can promote stalling, some can randomly kill (both characters have difficulty going for the kill, and the hazards will randomly work with or against you).
Yoshi's Island: It's much smaller than Pictochat which makes it easier to reach Sonic after he abuses the slopes. Also, the permanent platform will keep you from being stuck on the floor and help you approach while he does that glitch, so in that sense, it's a better stage than Pictochat. However, due to how awkward that stage is (for me at least) and the fact that the glitch exists on that stage means that you should ban it immediately (if Pictochat isn't legal or if you have 2 stage bans).
Frigate Orpheon: The platform on the right will barely affect Sonic since he barely uses the ledge anyways. His UpB is too mighty for ledges, while TL suffers without ledges (and ironically, on them x__x).
Good stages: Brinstar. I LOVE that stage against Sonic. Also, any neutral will do if I'm not mistaken. Battlefield will do us well mostly, but Smashville, PS1 are also good stages to fight him on.
Some random notes that I took in order to beat the Sonic main that I practice with:
-Uair and a spaced bair beats Sonic's Dair. When Sonic tries to escape via Spring to Dair, TL can easily beat it with either of those attacks.
-Arrows (and I THINK boomerangs) won't beat the ISDR, but they'll clank against Sonic and make him stop in his tracks. Zair and bombs won't though.
-Zair works really well in this MU, especially retreating Zair.
-If a Sonic is gonna recover from low with his UpB, try to meet him at the peak of his spring with a Fair. Some Sonics attack or air dodge to get more horizontal oomph, so if he does that, try to meet him somewhere else.
-Learn to tech his DThrow, since that'll open the door to a bunch of tech chase options.
urg I might write more later.
Edit: Get uber ninja'd out the *** Twink.
Pictochat: Sonic can do the ISDR on both slopes at the end, and since the stage is so huge, it will give him more breathing room to run away and keep trying. The hazards will also make things difficult because some can promote stalling, some can randomly kill (both characters have difficulty going for the kill, and the hazards will randomly work with or against you).
Yoshi's Island: It's much smaller than Pictochat which makes it easier to reach Sonic after he abuses the slopes. Also, the permanent platform will keep you from being stuck on the floor and help you approach while he does that glitch, so in that sense, it's a better stage than Pictochat. However, due to how awkward that stage is (for me at least) and the fact that the glitch exists on that stage means that you should ban it immediately (if Pictochat isn't legal or if you have 2 stage bans).
Frigate Orpheon: The platform on the right will barely affect Sonic since he barely uses the ledge anyways. His UpB is too mighty for ledges, while TL suffers without ledges (and ironically, on them x__x).
Good stages: Brinstar. I LOVE that stage against Sonic. Also, any neutral will do if I'm not mistaken. Battlefield will do us well mostly, but Smashville, PS1 are also good stages to fight him on.
Some random notes that I took in order to beat the Sonic main that I practice with:
-Uair and a spaced bair beats Sonic's Dair. When Sonic tries to escape via Spring to Dair, TL can easily beat it with either of those attacks.
-Arrows (and I THINK boomerangs) won't beat the ISDR, but they'll clank against Sonic and make him stop in his tracks. Zair and bombs won't though.
-Zair works really well in this MU, especially retreating Zair.
-If a Sonic is gonna recover from low with his UpB, try to meet him at the peak of his spring with a Fair. Some Sonics attack or air dodge to get more horizontal oomph, so if he does that, try to meet him somewhere else.
-Learn to tech his DThrow, since that'll open the door to a bunch of tech chase options.
urg I might write more later.
Edit: Get uber ninja'd out the *** Twink.
Just a light note concerning this:
Basically, teching in place gives you very minor punishers (I'd assume jab and MAYBE utilt if you tech close enough).Kinzer's D-Throw Tech Frame Data said:
At absurdly high percents, it'd be useful to tech into utilt. The only problem is that Sonic's won't be dthrowing you at those percents to begin with.
Just be aware that this is including being frame perfect. You're still under pressure even if you tech dthrow. Just not as much as if you didn't DI or tech the landing.
Thebest1pj
Pinnacle of Projectile Placement.
all you gotta do is bair sonic when they spindash
meekspeedy is the best sonic
meekspeedy is the best sonic
MeekSpeedy
Smash Ace
pls stop pj, pls no