Falco Matchup #4: Jigglypuff

Seeing as how DR3W is busy and stuff and I been having free time and such, I will do the Jigglypuff MU thread If he doesn't mind.

In this thread, post any information you have regarding the matchup against Jigglypuff.

Keep these in mind when posting:
- What do we have against him/her remember it's a Pokemon?
- What to watch out for?
- Certain do's & don'ts
- Any additional information or data necessary.

Now let's begin.

Reserved for me if I wish to post a Pro's vs Con's or frame data in this spot.

Edit: Hitboxes video for Jigglypuff as well as a post containing all of Jiggs hitboxes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBYx_Ld3lUM

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8922371&postcount=32

Edit2: The MU is 60-40 read the thread to find out why also the end discussion of the MU stops at 106 basically beginning of page 8.

run away how the **** is puff gonna catch you? Her ground speed sucks **** so she has to be in the air, iap back and forth.

Puff dies around 90% from a fresh up smash I think.

Just double jab.

When you camp, just be smart about it because she has a bunch of stuff that's randomly good against side b (nair, pound). Not too hard though.

Don't get off the edge against her, she's decent at gimping

Jigglypuff is totally shut down by smart usage of Jabs and lasers. Just don't do jab cancels on her, she will rest you out of it.

Lasers whenever possible. Jabbing goes through a lot, Usmash kills her at pretty low percents.

Don't lose the lead if there is no LGL, or you will get planked.

Hard.

I'm still deciding whether or not that this is a 50/50 or slightly in falco's favor.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=297806
I'm going to be taking alot of information from my MU thread for this explanation.

So, the kill percents:

1. Bair will kill from center stage of Final D at 135% without DI. It will kill offstage (while you are recovering) at 100%.

2. Fsmash will kill at 100% from center stage.

3. Usmash/Dacus will kill at 95%.

4. Utilt kills around the same time as Usmash.

Moves to kill with:

1. Utilt kills at 125%

2. From center final D, Fair kills at 113%

3. Rest will kill at 72%

4. Fsmash will kill at 100%

5. Usmash will kill at 104%

6. Rolllout will kill at 75%

7. Fair kills around 110%.

8. Gimps... 0.

These percents are without DI. So tack on like, 5-10% for both to include DI.Your lasers don't affect us too much, the only time we should really be hit by them is when we are recovering. We can easily, duck, or go above them. Now, the really tough thing for us in this MU is your jab. it pretty much ***** us. Use jab alot and you can beat puff. All of your aerials are beaten by ours. And your recovery is beaten by us too.

If youre camping at one side of the stage, it's not hard for us to get over to you, and when we do, if you try to phantasm we can hit you out of it. All of your attacks on shield can be punished by Dair or Fair. Dair is really good in this MU, for us. We can combo into Grab, Utilt, Rest, another Dair. I forgot to add it in the list above, but out DA is a great kill move as well. It's fast and unsuspected.

The whole game falco is going to be spending camping with lasers and if you get close either phantasm or jab. If he phantasms, nair is the fastest thing to Kanye him with. If he jabs, you'll just have to bait it and go through with a pound or a dair from above. At low percents, falcos will:

Grab - Dthrow - Attempted regrab but we can get out after the 2nd one. we CAN rest you, so be careful on your regrab.
Grab Dthrow to Dair to tech chase grab works.
Grab Dthrow to PG works, if we airdodge the regrab instead of jumping.

Your lack of kill potential combined with our kill potential, and gimping abilities makes this a hard and annoying match for both of us. You can out prioritize us on the ground, but we can out prioritize you in the air. Your jab beats us, and our approach is REALLY hard to do. We CAN duck the lasers, but it really only makes the approach harder for us. We'll just have to figure when to jump/jump OOS and then prepare for the phantasm that always happens.

The good thing is falco can't kill if we're shielding. Predict a DACUS? Shield and Fair. Fsmash, fair. Dair and Fair eat airdodges whole. So be careful.

I'm not really sure what else to say. This is what i have to say from Puff's side of the MU. Uair is a good surprise on us?
What else would you like to know?

sorry mink i think your opinion is incredibly wrong on this matchup, the very fact you said 'we out prioritize you in the air' makes it hard to take anything else seriously

aerials do not have priority unless they are clashing with grounded moves.

Aerial priority = Range, which we do beat you in.

its not range technically either, its just whatever hitbox connects with a hurt box first

+ jiggly puff dies at 80%-90%
+ All falco's moves go through jiggly puffs.
+ The only thing that jiggly puff can do to falco is grab the edge out of our recovery.
+ Jiggly puff deffinetly has killing problems falco doesn't.
X= any way who the hell would use jiggly puff over falco?

I dunno mink those percents seem kinda wrong especially the part about utilt killing at the same time as usmash. The hardest part is that you cant approach on the ground, and you have to jump pretty high to avoid lasers but if you do that he can phantasm safely under you to the other side of the stage and jigglypuff fastfalls so slow she cant catch him. If he phantams when your on the ground its pretty easy to stop him just nair him out of it and follow up with a grab. Or if hes above about 70 stop it with dair and rest him. The fact that he cant chaingrab doesnt really matter because he gets like 30% combos out of a grab with dair and nair. To beat him you really just have to camp platforms and get lucky lol.

I can't see this as 50-50. The best ratio for this MU that I can see mostly is 60-40 hell even 55-45 but that's just me.

Utilt DOES kill at the same percent as usmash Ito.

And you can take it on what it is.
I gave my two cents. Everything i gave you is fact. Falco DOES have a hard time killing. Usmash, Fsmash, Bair.... LOL at dmash.
Am i forgetting something?

More often then not you're forced to use Ftilt to kill us LOL

Wait...im confused isnt the first list you have of falcos kill moves and the second one of jigglypuffs kill moves? Because falcos utilt doesnt kill till like 170. But that wouldnt make sense either since you list some of the same moves twice lol.

Falco's utilt will kill us around the same percent as usmash will. I'll get FGCU Viper in here, because he plays the MU with me often, and Utilt is a vital kill move against us.

Sorry i didn't see the rest of your writing. It must have been edited.
If Falco is going to phantasm on the ground to follow a laser, Dair will never work. IT simply doesn't come out fast enough, and if falco is airborn when you hit him with dair, it would be incredibly if you hit rest, if not post impossible.

Platform camping isn't what you want to do in this MU. His nair is really good against platform camping us.

must be a troll

uptilt does not kill at the same percent as upsmash lol

Not trolling.

Lol, sorry for some reason i was thinking of puffs utilt when i was typing this.
But if you end up killing a puff before 100%, i'll be mad impressed.
Puff can momentum cancel pretty good with uair, and by the tiime you get around to killing, utilt isn't a bad option. You're not gonna kill us til around 130%.

I kill puffs at 50% Mink, puff is incredibly light. ftilt will kill at about 100% if done correctly, fsmash will kill around 60% even with good DI.

Puff cannot gimp Falco, Puff cannot hit through the flames of Falco's up b.

Falco probably won't die until about 160%, puff will most likely have to resort to using up throw in order to kill Falco.

^^^^ troll post?

Lol.
Pound, Dair, Fair and nair can hit through the flames on falco's recovery.
If any puff is dumb enough to get hit by a fully charged fsmash, then... they're bad.

Just charge rollout

The fsmash does not have to be charged.

Puff is way too light... Falco kills puff easily, and puff only kills early if she can gimp falco when in middle of firebird.

If we nair Phantasm and falco tried to phantasm afterwards to save himself we get a tipper'd Fair, killing offstage at 60.

Falco's phantasm beats puff's nair and also kills puff around 70%

Your troll has been successful.

I do not like this matchup. I lost to Dapuffster last hit 3rd game in 2nd round pools at Apex 2010 and almost didn't make it out cause of that. The matchup isn't bad, just annoying. That rollout is a pain in the ***.

Dapuffster will rollout, then jump in the air, rollout, then jump in the air, rollout, then jump in the air......guess what comes next?

Of course he doesn't do this while I'm at 0, but once I'm at 50/60 he goes for it as it can kill that early I believe. Just annoying because I somehow end up having to chase a character with Falco.

Mink idk it actually is kinda hard to gimp falcos firebird lol, you can hit him with pound but it doesnt really help gimp him and fair and nair have to be at a very specific angle i just go above him and dair him 2-3 times then ledgehog. Also phantasm is impossible to gimp unless at high percents because he can phantasm again when he gets hit by nair and the cooldown is so long he gets a frame advantage on hit. You just gotta predict when hell use it and hitem when he recovers.

Even with perfect di fair will kill at about 120, and dash attack at 150 but if he knows there comin theres really nothing else to kill him with without a hard read of rest or fsmash.

@keitaro u know you can just turn around shield and grab him as he passes by right?

Ito do you have proof of this?
I would like to see some results of you vs a falco, or any matches of you v falco.
Not trying to sound offensive, but i would like to see proof. IF falco is firebirding, just fair it/dair it to knock him out of it, hit him farther away, and thats a gimp.

I am experienced in this MU. I do understand it.
We can kill with utilt out of an AC dair, we can kill witth fair out of any smash he tries to use on our shield, if he is short hopping lasers, it's easy to punish when we're there. We have more killing power than him.

We have the ability to wait and kill.

what do you want me to prove? That you can gimp him with dair?

Mo.
Where you're getting your MU info from.

It's been a really busy day with mother's day and all. So, sorry for not getting to this.

Thanks Gamegenie.

MARLX said:

+ jiggly puff dies at 80%-90%
+ All falco's moves go through jiggly puffs.
+ The only thing that jiggly puff can do to falco is grab the edge out of our recovery.
+ Jiggly puff deffinetly has killing problems falco doesn't.
X= any way who the hell would use jiggly puff over falco?

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I hope no one takes this post seriously when determining the ratio, MARLX obviously has no Jigglypuff experience or knowledge.

DEHF said:

I kill puffs at 50% Mink, puff is incredibly light. ftilt will kill at about 100% if done correctly, fsmash will kill around 60% even with good DI.

Puff cannot gimp Falco, Puff cannot hit through the flames of Falco's up b.

Falco probably won't die until about 160%, puff will most likely have to resort to using up throw in order to kill Falco.

Click to expand...

Had a response to this... Then I saw this:

DEHF said:

Falco's phantasm beats puff's nair

Click to expand...

And realized you were trolling.

Linkvader said:

Puff is way too light... Falco kills puff easily, and puff only kills early if she can gimp falco when in middle of firebird.

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This brings up a point: Is this ratio assuming there is a LGL, or not? Cause if there isn't, she doesn't even need to KO Falco outside of gimping.

Puff counters Falco if there is no LGL.

Everyone counters Falco with no LGL. lol

Olimar doesn't

Hmmm... on another note, I'd love to see an Ivysaur or Olimar plank a Meta Knight...

Mink said:

I'm still deciding whether or not that this is a 50/50 or slightly in falco's favor.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=297806
I'm going to be taking alot of information from my MU thread for this explanation.

So, the kill percents:

1. Bair will kill from center stage of Final D at 135% without DI. It will kill offstage (while you are recovering) at 100%.

2. Fsmash will kill at 100% from center stage.

3. Usmash/Dacus will kill at 95%.

4. Utilt kills around the same time as Usmash.

Moves to kill with:

1. Utilt kills at 125%

2. From center final D, Fair kills at 113%

3. Rest will kill at 72%

4. Fsmash will kill at 100%

5. Usmash will kill at 104%

6. Rolllout will kill at 75%

7. Fair kills around 110%.

8. Gimps... 0.

These percents are without DI. So tack on like, 5-10% for both to include DI.

Click to expand...

You're ********. I've never had trouble surviving any of Jigglypuff's **** to >120 unless I'm offstage.

Your lasers don't affect us too much, the only time we should really be hit by them is when we are recovering. We can easily, duck, or go above them. Now, the really tough thing for us in this MU is your jab. it pretty much ***** us. Use jab alot and you can beat puff. All of your aerials are beaten by ours. And your recovery is beaten by us too.

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Puff crouches, we don't shoot. WOO HOO
Puff jumps above us, we wait until she gets fairly close, we side b. WOO HOO
Jab ***** thank you
LOL @ your aerials beating ours. Your FAir and BAir trade w/ all our aerials, that's about it. Startup for both characters is close iirc
Our recovery can be varied on reaction and Jigglypuff's air mobility is trash. Try again

If youre camping at one side of the stage, it's not hard for us to get over to you, and when we do, if you try to phantasm we can hit you out of it. All of your attacks on shield can be punished by Dair or Fair. Dair is really good in this MU, for us. We can combo into Grab, Utilt, Rest, another Dair. I forgot to add it in the list above, but out DA is a great kill move as well. It's fast and unsuspected.

Click to expand...

Phantasm first 1/3rd = invincible. WHATCHA GONNA DO
Uhh what? Falco doesn't have to attack your shield with the aerial to be a threat >_> He has tons of mixups - e.g. autocancelling the aerial just outside your FAir range, power blocking and then usmashing OOS or something. He can also just airdodge through you, land away, etc. So Falco doesn't really have any sort of forced situation here.
How are you going to hit us w/ Dair? Seriously lolz
Yeah good point bout Dash Attack. Then again...tell me how many more kill moves you have LOL! Telegraphed.

The whole game falco is going to be spending camping with lasers and if you get close either phantasm or jab. If he phantasms, nair is the fastest thing to Kanye him with. If he jabs, you'll just have to bait it and go through with a pound or a dair from above.

Click to expand...

Nair only beats Falco side b @ outside first 1/3. Not reliable in any case because at that range Falco is fast enough where he can run away again, approach by walk/dash, hold block, etc.
Pound goes through jab but Jab - Straight is really quick and since Puff is floaty she gets caught lolz

At low percents, falcos will:

Grab - Dthrow - Attempted regrab but we can get out after the 2nd one. we CAN rest you, so be careful on your regrab.
Grab Dthrow to Dair to tech chase grab works.
Grab Dthrow to PG works, if we airdodge the regrab instead of jumping.

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Your playing buddy doesn't represent all of Falco's potential options from a dthrow at low %s.

Your lack of kill potential combined with our kill potential, and gimping abilities makes this a hard and annoying match for both of us. You can out prioritize us on the ground, but we can out prioritize you in the air. Your jab beats us, and our approach is REALLY hard to do. We CAN duck the lasers, but it really only makes the approach harder for us. We'll just have to figure when to jump/jump OOS and then prepare for the phantasm that always happens.

Click to expand...

The first somewhat realistic description of the matchup so far, except it seems like you're being intellectually dishonest about just how much harder it is for Jiggles than Falco. We have way more kill potential than you care to admit, btw...please play more Falcos that aren't Viper before you make that assertion.

The good thing is falco can't kill if we're shielding. Predict a DACUS? Shield and Fair. Fsmash, fair. Dair and Fair eat airdodges whole. So be careful.

I'm not really sure what else to say. This is what i have to say from Puff's side of the MU. Uair is a good surprise on us?
What else would you like to know?

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What kind of Falcos are you playing that have these limited kinds of kill setups? LOL

Think about the characters' tools + attributes and come back to this thread when you're ready to actually talk about this matchup. This is a matchup that you have to learn for sure, but once Falco has learned it it's not too hard to keep winning.

clowsui said:

Jigglypuff's air mobility is trash.

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Sigged.

if jigglypuff crouches we run off laser

clowsui don't be ****

This matchup sucks lol. I'd say it's 60:40, Falco's favor. The only way I can see Jigglypuff winning is if she somehow gimps up atlow % or rests us at low %. Otherwise, just jab/nair/laser/side b all day. Reflector isn't a bad option in some situations either. Just my 2 cents, but I don't have much experience in this matchup either, to be honest. Just naming obvious stuff that everyone knows already.

Grim Tuesday said:

Sigged.

Click to expand...

Vertically? Pretty sure, lol
Horizontally? Eh. Don't think it's better than Wario/Marth. A little better than MK's. Above average.

Vertical + Horizontal Falco's air mobility is about the same (GREAT vertical, below average horizontal).

Show me data.

Also @Scoot sorry The whole ******* thing is in my blood from being an 08 Marther, where you either talked about tools or didn't have the conversation period.