Falco Matchup #4: Jigglypuff

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Okay.
First off. I was asked to come in here. I expect ALL.
Every. Thing.
I say to be respected. If you don't agree with what i have bring it up. Don't personally attack me, for something about a video game.

You're ********

Worst way to start this. Bad impression. Achieved.

Puff crouches, we don't shoot. WOO HOO
Puff jumps above us, we wait until she gets fairly close, we side b. WOO HOO
Jab ***** thank you
LOL @ your aerials beating ours. Your FAir and BAir trade w/ all our aerials, that's about it. Startup for both characters is close iirc
Our recovery can be varied on reaction and Jigglypuff's air mobility is trash. Try again

I previously stated jab *****.
Stop woo hooing to yourself, it's embarassing.
I'm sorry. i forgot how amazing your fair, uair and nair were in correlation to ours.
Our mobility is not trash. Your opinion is wrong.

Phantasm first 1/3rd = invincible. WHATCHA GONNA DO
How are you going to hit us w/ Dair? Seriously lolz

I'm going to nair.

for the 2nd sentence, No one should also be rested. But it happens to everyone.
M2K twice.

Nair only beats Falco side b @ outside first 1/3. Not reliable in any case because at that range Falco is fast enough where he can run away again, approach by walk/dash, hold block, etc.
Pound goes through jab but Jab - Straight is really quick and since Puff is floaty she gets caught lolz

With everything in this game there is a risk reward. Our best bet against your jab it to approach from an above diagonal or go directly through jab which is a harder route. All the "lolz" at the end of your post are not necessary.

Your playing buddy doesn't represent all of Falco's potential options from a dthrow at low %s.

No he doesn't. And thats why i listed out all the things i have seen work well on puff out of Dthrow.
Next time i'll make sure to clarify that Falco has more options then the 2 i wrote down. I'm sorry for misleading you.

The first somewhat realistic description of the matchup so far, except it seems like you're being intellectually dishonest about just how much harder it is for Jiggles than Falco. We have way more kill potential than you care to admit, btw...please play more Falcos that aren't Viper before you make that assertion.

Well. to name a few falco's i play.

FGCU Viper, Xaltis, DJ Jack, Kuro, HRNut, Garbonzo, Gallax, Xyz.
If you don't know all of them, there is no need to bash them or anything. Thats fine, we don't live near each other. lol. But thats who i play. I'm sure that Xaltis, DJ Jack, Viper and HR are worthy at least.
I've also beaten NoID (GA) at the last tourney i went to, though i don't know how reputable he is since i'm not from GA.

I did say the MU was hard for us.
Just because it's not hard, doesn't mean it's not even.

What kind of Falcos are you playing that have these limited kinds of kill setups? LOL

Think about the characters' tools + attributes and come back to this thread when you're ready to actually talk about this matchup. This is a matchup that you have to learn for sure, but once Falco has learned it it's not too hard to keep winning.

Just because you have kill setups doesn't mean you don't only have 4 kill moves lol.
If you want to be a **** get out. I came in here to help and you came in here to **** on me. If you don't want my help, you're not going to get much more knowledgeable people on the subject. You may not know me, and i sure as hell don't know you. But since neither of us have heard of each other, let's just assume both of us are bad at this game and move on.

I've given my MU information. I'm here for the debate. I am NOT here to be treated poorly and disrespected off of a request.
Now if you want to debate you can stay and discuss this. If you want to insult my knowledge, why don't you bring that to the puff boards or a PM. I came here to discuss. I believe i countered all of your bashing, so i think i'm back to a neutral state.


Jack, next time im at ZP, or you come here, we need to do more friendlies. We didn't get enough last time -.-
Also, alot of puff's game IS based on gimps. It's not a "well that was lucky" thing. It's part of the plan.

 

[clowsui]

I didn't really come here to **** on you, you've made some rather incorrect assumptions here. The only thing I'm here to do is discuss Sorry about being a jerk, but it's an easy way to get people to listen since 90% of people are idiots and don't actually know what they're talking about. Now that I know you're a nice guy, we can have a cordial discussion.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Cordial discussion sounds nice.

 

[Gamegenie222]

I hope you guys patch things up about this. If you guys gonna start crap, don't start it here or any other boards for that matter, it's okay to have differences that's why they are called opinions but this is a MU thread, not a bi*ching at another player who is willing to talk about a MU thread especially if it's one I created. Now with that out of the way, what do you guys think about the MU ratio for this MU, 50-50, 55-45, or 60-40 Falco?

 

[clowsui]

I'm sorry. i forgot how amazing your fair, uair and nair were in correlation to ours.
Our mobility is not trash. Your opinion is wrong.

Fair sucks (cept vs Diddy Kong)
UAir beats DAir from below. Though this tactic is underused atm (larry and I working on it) SHUair combos into other stuff lolz
NAir is like...decent. IDK Puff is floaty she can prolly DI out mad quick -.-
Mobility horizontally is good, vertically not so much, I already addressed this. In retrospect horizontal mobility matters when it comes to gimping Falco but since Falco can change height quickly it's not a HUGE issue. Just means that her gimps are viable not necessarily frequent

I'm going to nair.
for the 2nd sentence, No one should also be rested. But it happens to everyone.
M2K twice.

You're just going to stale your Nair that way. Once again, 1st third = invincible. I don't see how (on a tool-to-tool basis that is) you could possibly threaten us into spacing it poorly >__>; as far as I'm concerned NAir breaking my phantasm is just as likely as Sheik's NAir doing so...AKA not often onstage and only happens if I make an obvious phantasm recovery. Like if Sheik can't do it...and her SH Nair is even better than Puff's (seriously, lol)...how can Puff do it?

With everything in this game there is a risk reward. Our best bet against your jab it to approach from an above diagonal or go directly through jab which is a harder route. All the "lolz" at the end of your post are not necessary.

I'm amusing myself, sorry
W/ regards to risk-reward that's what I mean though. Jab = low risk high reward strategy. Puff trying to beat jab =
A while ago Larry brought up that double jab shuts down floaties cause Falco can just double jab and they can't do anything about it afterwards really. I dun see Jigglypuff being an exception to the rule (prove me wrong)

No he doesn't. And thats why i listed out all the things i have seen work well on puff out of Dthrow.
Next time i'll make sure to clarify that Falco has more options then the 2 i wrote down. I'm sorry for misleading you.

Be a little clearer next time lol, I really thought you meant that those were the only things you've seen >__> In terms of effective options, when you're examining a situation it's best to list every one that you can think of.

Well. to name a few falco's i play.

FGCU Viper, Xaltis, DJ Jack, Kuro, HRNut, Garbonzo, Gallax, Xyz.
If you don't know all of them, there is no need to bash them or anything. Thats fine, we don't live near each other. lol. But thats who i play. I'm sure that Xaltis, DJ Jack, Viper and HR are worthy at least.
I've also beaten NoID (GA) at the last tourney i went to, though i don't know how reputable he is since i'm not from GA.

That's fair; how'd you do against them? THis is curiosity at this point lol

I did say the MU was hard for us.
Just because it's not hard, doesn't mean it's not even.

That's a fair point BUT you still haven't effectively demonstrated how Falco only wins the MU +1 or goes 0 with Jiggles.

Just because you have kill setups doesn't mean you don't only have 4 kill moves lol.

Oh believe me...I know this all too well (fk MK -__-).

HOWEVER look at Wario. Kill moves = UAir, Waft, FSmash, BAir as the most common ones outside of gimp. Does it matter how many kill moves he has? No, because he has setups into them. Same idea with Falco.

Also, alot of puff's game IS based on gimps. It's not a "well that was lucky" thing. It's part of the plan.

I just think it's not reasonable for her to consistently gimp Falco unless the Falco is being stupid and double jumps too early >_>; and I don't see how she'll bait him into doing so etc.

 

[M@v]

Don't play vs jigglypuff if you hate boring matches. Seriously. There's a jigglypuff in my crew and I want to gouche my eyes out when he forces me to go through the misery that is Falco vs Jiggs. If you play defensive there's literally nothing jiggs can do, but only if you play defensively.

 

[clowsui]

Falco wins by being a homo, I agree w that

Jab jab jab jab jab laser laser phantasm etc.

I almost didn't make it outta pools cause of a Jiggs (Jayford), so I learned that being da homoest is da best the hard way :S

I bet we can ISSDI grab puff's aerials on block too

 

[M@v]

You CAN be aggro, but I only do because I know the player well. Against a random jiggs I don't know; I'd only go aggro in the center of the stage. Otherwise less QQ and more pew pew.

 

[Gamegenie222]

I never got a chance to play Jayford in brawl even though he's a chill guy and he hanged out with the NE/IA crew after a tourney here last year. I should when he moves back to Iowa for the summer later this month.

 

[-DR3W-]

No one lose to that Jigglypuff.

 

[Gamegenie222]

I try not to lose to Jayford when I play him in brawl if I don't get bracket ***** first.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Jab ***** puff, hard. It's more of a +1 in Falco's favor. It's manageable on our side though.

Against DJ jack, (Danny you can back me up on this) i believe in our friendly set at NLL, i won game 1, and he won game2, and then i got jack locked game3 + 2 stocked. Haha.

Against Xaltis, if i recall correctly, last time we MM'ed it at least went to either high percent 2 stock, or one stock. I should've won on japes. Drunk johns.

Me and Viper this season are 1-2 i believe.

The rest are all friendlies.
I beat Kuro (kuro, if you disagree, we can play tomorrow )
I'm not sure how i do against xyz...
The only one i can say really is hard is HR's and Gallax's. But i'll go ahead and say i still either win a majority or it's 50/50. I can always stand corrected. Though, looking at the list, i can hold my own.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Vertically? Pretty sure, lol
Horizontally? Eh. Don't think it's better than Wario/Marth. A little better than MK's. Above average.

Vertical + Horizontal Falco's air mobility is about the same (GREAT vertical, below average horizontal).

Show me data.

Jigglypuff has the second best horizontal aerial mobility in the game, HIGHER than Wario, HIGHER than Marth, and WAY higher than Meta Knight.

Jigglypuff can control her vertical mobility decently with multiple jumps and rising/descending Pound, she doesn't need to be able to fall fast to punish Falco, she just needs to space properly.

I don't really care for a debate, because in my experience, people's opinions don't change.

I'll ask again though, does this ratio assume their is a Ledge-Grab limit, or not?

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

With an LGL.

No tournaments don't use LGL's anymore.


because of Pit MK.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I obviously meant a global LGL.

 

[Gamegenie222]

The MU ratio is with a LGL in mind but we can do a MU ratio's for no LGL if you wish Grim?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Meh, doesn't really bother me. Ratios are meaningless, I just want them to be accurate for whatever their purpose is, I'll keep beating Falcos even if you guys decide the MU is unwinnable for Puff

 

[Gamegenie222]

All right then as long you stick to your character then that's good but the bird is gonna get ya sooner or later.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

And on that day I'll just use Meta Knight and ****.

 

[swordsaint]

sa dont count

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

sa?

San Antonio?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

SA includes Apollo

Apollo > Scoot



Mink: South Australia

 

[Noobicidal]

Our recovery can be varied on reaction and Jigglypuff's air mobility is trash. Try again

I'm so glad I don't bother debating match ups anymore.

 

[swordsaint]

SA includes Apollo

Apollo > Scoot



Mink: South Australia

whereever did you get that misconception!

 

[Keitaro]

Do we have any videos of Jiggs vs Falco? I remember seeing some from players from Florida I believe. I'm on my phone so I can't really search it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

whereever did you get that misconception!

Come to Reloaded and prove me wrong

 

[swordsaint]

Come to Reloaded and prove me wrong

sponsor me

i dont need to prove you wrong though, it's already been done with the fact I've never been outplaced or beaten in tournament by apollo

 

[Grim Tuesday]

When was the last time you two were in the same tournament?

He doesn't use ZSS as much anymore, which will obviously help against you

 

[swordsaint]

not if he's metaknight because my metaknight experience is amazing. (i dont know who apollo uses)

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Snake and Luigi, now.

I love how we turned this into an Aussie social thread. The mods are asleep...

 

[swordsaint]

luigi probably isnt worth mentioning in reality.

snake

damn it

i hate snake.

hes got like a 90/10 matchup over falco imo.

how come i dont see you on msn anymore? you havent blocked me have you

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Oh, I changed my e-mail.

Check on my profile if you want my new one.

And his Luigi is very good, don't underestimate it

 

[Vlade]

Grim and Swordsaint, take your conversation elsewhere

I've only done a skim read of what's been said so far but I play someone who uses puff that really likes the move rollout in friendlies and at first I had trouble shieldgrabbing the rollout. However, I found that if you shield with your back facing towards a puff charging roll, let them hit your shield and then shieldgrab it works every time.

There's probably better ways of punishing rollout, but if you want a grab then that's the way to do it

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Nah, that's the best way of punishing it Vlade.

But a smart Puff won't really just charge into your shield with it...

 

[clowsui]

I'm so glad I don't bother debating match ups anymore.

I'm so glad people don't read what I'm saying and pick at small points. Try again, d1pf4g.

Grim, thanks for presenting me data (though MK has trash horizontal aerial mobility wtf LOL you think I don't know that?). I disagree about your analysis of vertical mobility because Jiggs doesn't accelerate quite as quickly as Falco does vertically.

By the way, I can't wait for all the Jigglypuffs to laugh at that quote in your sig. I'm always game for continuous cash flows into my bank account

Also, I have yet to hear any of your actual thoughts despite the meaningless trolling you're doing. Let's talk about how Jiggs will successfully, consistently edgeguard Falco once the Falco has a very good idea of how to recover.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Do we have any videos of Jiggs vs Falco? I remember seeing some from players from Florida I believe. I'm on my phone so I can't really search it.

I have some good sets with Viper, i don't think the one of me and NoID from GA were saved, i'll youtube it when i get the chance. I'm on my phone too.

I'm sure if you type Viper vs Mink on your phone you'll find some good youtube videos.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Viper (Falco) vs Mink (Jigglypuff) Nub Academy 4 GF (1)

Viper (Falco) vs Mink (Jigglypuff) Nub Academy 4 GF (2)

Viper (Falco) vs Mink (Jigglypuff) Nub Academy 4 GF (3)

 

[Keitaro]

LMAO!! Mink is that your face as the Jiggly icon?

Also here are more recent tourney vids of Mink vs Viper. Viper can actually ISP correctly in these

Match 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqVZqz3n1Vc&feature=related
Match 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmyM8bh8SBE&feature=related
Match 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNdSULsC5Ug&feature=related

 

[teluoborg]

You're just going to stale your Nair that way. Once again, 1st third = invincible. I don't see how (on a tool-to-tool basis that is) you could possibly threaten us into spacing it poorly >__>; as far as I'm concerned NAir breaking my phantasm is just as likely as Sheik's NAir doing so...AKA not often onstage and only happens if I make an obvious phantasm recovery. Like if Sheik can't do it...and her SH Nair is even better than Puff's (seriously, lol)...how can Puff do it?

Well, first thing is that Nair hitting something invincible (aka with no hurtbox) will not stale it.
Second, what Jiggs can do and Sheik can't is drift back.
By the moment you start your phantasm, if you're not close enough to be punished during the startup lag Jiggs just has to SH/DJ Nair/Dair and drift back to land the weak hit in the vulnerable part of phantasm.


With that said I think the matchup is still in Falco's favor, 6-4 at worst.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

So much activity in a thread only like a day old lol

Jiggs ground game is pretty bad, so much that she would want to use the air. She has better luck trying to weave in and out of falco's defence with her horizontal air mobility trying to bait him into a poor choice that she can attack him on. Honestly, a SH from jiggs covers like 1/2 of smashville and a moving puff ball at various attitudes is not the easiest to gauge what is coming next. Would she use? nair, fair, air dodge, move backwards, forwards, jump, sideB? Falco trying to laser might get hit out of it, trying to shield a spaced Fair is not punishable, attempting to beat it out with attack might get beaten out if she uses her attack first. The match-up is trying to get into the better position in every circumstance (yeah, general match-up on any character, but it's the truth since jiggs can weave in and out of falco's defences and feel like a threat)

So, jiggs can stay fairly safe, and so can falco from any hard hitting attacks. Weaker stuff like aerials, grabs, and tilts are really all that will be getting through on these charaters. So, each living to high percents is not impossible if both are playing safe. Slip ups are really the only reason either will die at low percents from their hard hitting attacks.

Falco does have better zoning than jigglypuff does and will get more hits in over time.