Grim's LGL arguing thread

Grim Tuesday · Sep 13, 2011

I have explained numerous times why a global ledge-grab limit is a stupid idea...

Grim Tuesday said:
Firstly, one match isn't enough to convince me that Olimar can't stop DK's planking, and as far as I know, because of how fast the global LGL was instated, I doubt the Olimar boards put any time into figuring out how to stop it.

BUT, even if Olimar loses 100:0 to DK, that still doesn't justify a global LGL, in my opinion. Why, you may ask? Because of the double standards it creates. No one was screaming to create a Blizzard limit for the Ice Climbers/Ganondorf match-up, even though Ganon has a really rough time approaching through it. Wario can play keep-away from a lot of low tiers on larger stages, but no one has complained about that either. Hell, DK vs. Olimar is a REALLY hard match-up for DK if he stays on-stage, why don't we give Olimar a ground time limit, or a grab limit, hmm?

I'm seeing two things here:
1. People are more willing to defend the characters that have been established as good (i.e. Ganon has always been bad, so who cares about him? Olimar was viable until planking became common). Objectively, there is no logical reason to make this distinction.

2. People are more tolerant of on-stage camping than off-stage camping. Again, no reason to draw a distinction between them.

Before people ask about a Meta Knight ledge-grab limit... I support it, but not because I think it is the right thing to do. I'm worried that if we don't have a MK LGL, and MK isn't banned, then he will become an even more dominant force than he currently is. While I'd prefer a ban, I have to live with the limitations if I want this game to survive.

And if someone brings up other limitations such as the infinite limit or the ban on extending the dimensional cape: Those cases are different because they are banned because they can be used for stalling purposes. Banning them introduces no double standards, so the ban is legitimate.

This is why a global ledge-grab limit is and always will be illogical. Hope that cleared things up

Yet there are STILL people who disagree. Well, today is your lucky day disagre-ers, put forward any argument to support the inclusion of a ledge-grab limit and I will be happy to counter it.

Hopefully by the end of this I can get this stupid rule abolished.

Have fun!

WindMajor · Sep 13, 2011

Global or not, the LGL is a horrible, horrible, horrible rule, not only because of its poor functionality, but because of it's influence on how we as a community make rules.

If the rule were tangible I would strap it to a rocket and shoot it to the surface of the sun.

DMG · Sep 13, 2011

The rule is a bad fix to a problem, but it happens to basically be the best solution besides removing the character. Choosing a different option would basically allow, or become, a greater evil.

Grim Tuesday · Sep 13, 2011

DMG said:
The rule is a bad fix to a problem, but it happens to basically be the best solution besides removing the character. Choosing a different option would basically allow, or become, a greater evil.

And what problem is that? Do you believe that non-MK planking is a problem?

DMG · Sep 13, 2011

Well consider the alternatives:

1. No LGL at all. No alternative limit or rule to stop planking. The game is now effectively ruined.

2. Alternative to LGL like weight handicap, knockback, air time ground time etc. Rules like these are targeted at planking (well, besides the weight one. That one is ****in stupid lol), but not as specifically as a LGL. They punish you for a broader variety of scenarios than planking, hence they are even a worse evil than a LGL.

3. Put planking to the subjection of TO/Judge rule. This is a much better rule in theory than in practice. That and TO opinion can vary from region to region/not nearly universal and subject to incredible human bias. It also (minor issue, but still there) puts a burden on the TO to accurately be able to define and distinguish what and when planking is occurring.

Grim Tuesday · Sep 13, 2011

DMG said:
Well consider the alternatives:

1. No LGL at all. No alternative limit or rule to stop planking. The game is now effectively ruined.

Prove it. Planking, outside of Meta Knight, is a completely beatable tactic that doesn't ruin competition at all.

2. Alternative to LGL like weight handicap, knockback, air time ground time etc. Rules like these are targeted at planking (well, besides the weight one. That one is ****in stupid lol), but not as specifically as a LGL. They punish you for a broader variety of scenarios than planking, hence they are even a worse evil than a LGL.

I agree, bad rule.

3. Put planking to the subjection of TO/Judge rule. This is a much better rule in theory than in practice. That and TO opinion can vary from region to region/not nearly universal and subject to incredible human bias. It also (minor issue, but still there) puts a burden on the TO to accurately be able to define and distinguish what and when planking is occurring.

I agree, bad rule.

See, the problem you have here is that you have immediately assumed planking breaks the game with hardly any evidence to support you. In the event that planking did actually **** things up, then I could see a reason to limit it. At the moment, it doesn't hurt viability any more than Dedede does.

If you don't have any evidence to support you... Nxt argument plz?

Soldner Kei · Sep 13, 2011

I think that a LGL rule by Match-Up it's better than an universal one, even better than LGL by character IMO

As evidence, well, I would say that some MUs ratios change if the player planks or not, let's say a low-tier character against a spammy falco, I know, it's not the best example, but something like that, again like Grim said, no one cares that much about favoring a character that isn't tourney viable, but hell, you know how people complain about planking, so I think it's the best way to deal it by both sides

Grim Tuesday · Sep 13, 2011

Soldner Kei said:
I think that a LGL rule by Match-Up it's better than an universal one, even better than LGL by character IMO

Why do you believe we should have a LGL by match-up? Do you also believe we should have a limit on Ice Climbers solo chain-grab in match-ups where they **** with it?

Or a laser limit in match-ups where Falco ***** with lasers?

As I mentioned in the original post, there is no reason to treat planking differently to other "broken" techniques.

EDIT: People complaining about something shouldn't be used as a reason to ban something.

Soldner Kei · Sep 13, 2011

Grim Tuesday said:
Why do you believe we should have a LGL by match-up? Do you also believe we should have a limit on Ice Climbers solo chain-grab in match-ups where they **** with it?

Or a laser limit in match-ups where Falco ***** with lasers?

As I mentioned in the original post, there is no reason to treat planking differently to other "broken" techniques.

these tech are exclusive to those characters, planking isn't(not much of a tech either), but as you said MK is the only one argumentaly taking adventage with it, so, a LGL in certains MUs against MK it's better than an universal one, still it won't change other MUs at all, so I guess I agree on the LGL for MK only

and yeah, my bad about people complaining, a totally invalid point

DMG · Sep 13, 2011

Planking, outside of MK, looks eh. But I wasn't talking about planking aside from MK, I'm talking about planking completely legal with a MK legal game. THAT game is broken and would not be competitive. Under those conditions, there is no real alternative to a LGL other than banning the character.

Grim Tuesday · Sep 13, 2011

All is well, Kel.

@DMG: So, do you believe that there should be a global ledge-grab limit, or an MK specific one?

Cassio · Sep 13, 2011

I support it, but not because I think it is the right thing to do...I have to live with the limitations if I want this game to survive.

You answered your own question.

Theres only a handful of characters that can reasonably handle all forms of planking. As a pika player Im even perfectly fine with no lgl on MK so its no issue to me, but i recognize that players quit the game simply because somethings 'gay'. Pretty much the same reasoning theres an lgl on MK.

Grim Tuesday · Sep 13, 2011

Ah... No, what you quoted was specifically referring to a Meta Knight ledge-grab limit because he is the only one who has broken planking.

That does not provide a reason for other character's non-broken forms of planking.

Cassio · Sep 13, 2011

How are you defining broken? At the very least its something pika can deal with. Since I know itll come up its been shown pika can reasonably steal the ledge and prevent MK from gliding to the opposite end.

So at what point is the technique broken?

Grim Tuesday · Sep 13, 2011

How does Pikachu beat planking? o_O

I'm defining it as broken because it removes such a large amount of depth to the game that we can consider it a basis to ban Meta Knight without running into any double standards (there is nothing comparable to the viability-killing ability of planking).

DMG · Sep 13, 2011

Planking is more complex than people are crediting it for, and it covers a broad range of situations and moves that dismissing it simply because you can steal the edge is not doing proper justice to analyzing what happens.

Grim Tuesday · Sep 13, 2011

DMG said:
Planking is more complex than people are crediting it for, and it covers a broad range of situations and moves that dismissing it simply because you can steal the edge is not doing proper justice to analyzing what happens.

This.

Pikachu still loses VERY hard to a Meta Knight who is camping the ledge, even if he has some situational way of "stopping it".

DVDV28 · Sep 13, 2011

All Pika can do is use B and hope it hits (which a good MK won't let happen) or use thunder and hope MK keeps planking (which a good MK won't; he'd attack Pikachu who's stuck in the end lag of his move). Pika's just as screwed as the rest of the cast.

Heck, I'm not even sure that MK can displace a planking MK

Grim Tuesday · Sep 13, 2011

In my experience, I almost always have the advantage in MK dittos when I'm planking and the other player approaches me due to invincible uair mix-ups.

Cassio · Sep 13, 2011

I can understand it still being considered over-centralizing if only a couple characters can beat it. But I still dont think the discussion overall is so black and white. At the very least I think subjective arguments for an lgl should be considered reasonable, even if people think a universal lgl is too much.

Pikachu stuff:

People are familiar with pikachu having an elongated hurtbox during QA. What is less well known is that only occurs in cooldown and transition between movements. As he moves not only is his hurtbox small, it also has either some form of armor/invincibility/super priority. Its less noticable because pika only moves for 4 frames or less, while his transition and cooldown are much longer. When pika QAs to the ledge from the stage he avoids his transition/cooldown animation, and 4 frames covers a QA at full length. Basically pika goes from being onstage and away from the ledge one frame to having ledge invincibility the next.

If MK tries to glide to the other side of the stage, Pikachu can use QA to get to the other ledge faster than him.

Theres other stuff like "what if MK does option x,y, or z instead of regrabbing the ledge" which I cant remember and would be happy to discuss if brought up again, but with the dominating option being not so dominant the tactic overall becomes not so bad.

Realistically it wont go that far. Jolts alone make it hard to plank, and MK has tactics that are both easier and more effective.

Grim Tuesday · Sep 13, 2011

Um... No...

Jolts hardly affect MK at all, he can either jump away from them or dimensional cape. MK gliding to the other ledge... isn't really a large part of planking at all... QA has start-up lag that MK can react to and just grab the ledge before Pika as well, lol.

Even if Pikachu can grab the ledge before MK can, MK is still Meta Knight, he has way more options than Pikachu and can return to the stage with ease if need-be.

Splice · Sep 13, 2011

Best thing you could do is probs MK specific Ledge Grab Limit

Sure subjectivity or whatever is stupid but sadly, Brawl, in all its depth, has many features that hinder it as a competitive game because it was not made with that in mind and some things will never be fixed so you are gonna have to "settle for less" so to speak, imo, Mason, because you don't really have anything better except for stupid rules.

Ban MK is stupid coz banning stuff is stupid especially 3 years after release, LGL is stupid coz limiting stuff is stupid, Character specific LGL is stupid because subjectivity is stupid (apparently). Pick any, but they are all bad. If you are against MK ban, id say LGL probs next best thing.

Grim Tuesday · Sep 13, 2011

There is nothing stupid about banning Meta Knight, there is stupid stuff about ledge-grab limits.

Cassio · Sep 13, 2011

LOL, are you suggesting or telling me? You mind giving me your experience as pika on the matter? Ive played against enough high level players to know that they'd rather not put up with jolts on the ledge. Especially when there are more efficient and effective ways of playing gay. Dimensional cape is bleh, they have a frame of vulnerability before they grab the ledge and jolts travel very slow. Maybe in TSA thatll work but then so does planking prevention. And the point of using QA is to do it when he cant regrab, lol. Not to mention you can't react to it on sight. Youre making it sound like the MK has the ability to think while the pika doesnt.

And if you want to talk about fighting offstage/onstage thats an entirely different matter. My point was that planking aka using the ledge to camp isnt broken against pika.

Aside from that trying to analyze MKs vs Pikas (who might i add, is invincible at this point) options once the ledge is stolen becomes subjective and has nothing to do with an lgl and doesnt give you a concrete way of saying MKs planking is "broken" any more then DKs, etc. The best argument you can say is that its able to be overcentralising.

Splice · Sep 13, 2011

totally silly to ban MK, because the planking is more unbeatable than the rest of his game, makes more sense to ban the lesser one. Plus are you trying to in anyway apply this to Australia?
Would you say none are necessary in Australia because
1. Earl doesnt abuse planking so much as he is just da bess
2. Earl is the only MK who is da bess
3. If you ban MK he'll use wolf and that would be even worse for everyone

Grim Tuesday · Sep 13, 2011

Cassio said:
LOL, are you suggesting or telling me? You mind giving me your experience as pika on the matter? Ive played against enough high level players to know that they'd rather not put up with jolts on the ledge.

Sorry, but, who the **** are you?

Especially when there are more efficient and effective ways of playing gay. Dimensional cape is bleh, they have a frame of vulnerability before they grab the ledge and jolts travel very slow. Maybe in TSA thatll work but then so does planking prevention. And the point of using QA is to do it when he cant regrab, lol. Not to mention you can't react to it on sight. Youre making it sound like the MK has the ability to think while the pika doesnt.

Look, if you think that you can safely prevent MK from re-grabbing the ledge when he has 5 jumps, Mach Tornado, Shuttle Loop, air dodges and a glide, feel free to continue living in a fantasy world where Pikachu is S Tier and has enough options to mess with all that ****.

And if you want to talk about fighting offstage/onstage thats an entirely different matter. My point was that planking aka using the ledge to camp isnt broken against pika.

Read DMG's post. To beat planking you need to be able to beat MK's off-stage game as he can seamlessly transition between them.

Splice said:
totally silly to ban MK, because the planking is more unbeatable than the rest of his game, makes more sense to ban the lesser one. Plus are you trying to in anyway apply this to Australia?
Would you say none are necessary in Australia because
1. Earl doesnt abuse planking so much as he is just da bess
2. Earl is the only MK who is da bess
3. If you ban MK he'll use wolf and that would be even worse for everyone

Australia can do whatever it wants. I'm just saying: MK without surgical limits is broken.

I can guarantee you that if we didn't have a LGL for MK here, usage for him would definitely go up a large amount.

Budget Player Cadet_ · Sep 13, 2011

Grim Tuesday said:
Prove it. Planking, outside of Meta Knight, is a completely beatable tactic that doesn't ruin competition at all.

"Doesn't ruin competition"? You mean in the sense that the game is still playable? In that case, I agree. You mean in the sense that people will still want to go to tournaments? Not so much. I (and I think most other people in the community) simply would not go to a tournament that had planking legal. Furthermore, while the game would still be playable, large swathes of the cast would not be. Fox, Wolf, and maybe even falco would become virtually unplayable; Olimar would essentially lose several matchups as soon as he loses the lead, and still more characters would have to work around strategies that they can beat but struggle with to a ridiculous extent.

TL;DR: it'd ruin tournament play.

Grim Tuesday · Sep 13, 2011

Budget Player Cadet_ said:
"Doesn't ruin competition"? You mean in the sense that the game is still playable? In that case, I agree. You mean in the sense that people will still want to go to tournaments? Not so much. I (and I think most other people in the community) simply would not go to a tournament that had planking legal. Furthermore, while the game would still be playable, large swathes of the cast would not be. Fox, Wolf, and maybe even falco would become virtually unplayable; Olimar would essentially lose several matchups as soon as he loses the lead, and still more characters would have to work around strategies that they can beat but struggle with to a ridiculous extent.

TL;DR: it'd ruin tournament play.

This is a hilarious post coming from Mr. "Everyone Else is a Scrub". How about learning to counter a tactic before proclaiming it's broken? Mmm?

Also worth bringing up: There is a character who, last I checked, you support the legality of who kills the viability of more characters than planking does.

And what about the characters who have their viability improved by planking? Jigglypuff's hard counters become slightly easier to beat, R.O.B. NEEDS to plank against some characters like King Dedede, DK gets ***** by Olimar if he can't plank. Samus is almost completely unusable without the ledge in a large amount of match-ups.

-LzR- · Sep 13, 2011

I agree with BPC 100%.

Ghostbone · Sep 13, 2011

DVDV28 said:
Heck, I'm not even sure that MK can displace a planking MK

MK can, but it's in the planking MK's favour generally.
MK can air-dodge past and uair the other MK from below, or up-b and stuff.
But the MK on the ledge can nair that, and so on.
It's a mix-up, but generally the planking MK has the advantage, but it's beatable.

Edit:
Oh and other characters planking isn't broken BPC, all viable characters except like Falco can deal with non-G&W planking.
G&W is kinda annoying though, but I mean all not having a LGL would do is change which characters are viable.
Imagine if D3 could (easily) infinite Snake, Snake would be used, but he wouldn't be anywhere near as good as he is, that doesn't make D3 broken, that makes Snake bad.
Likewise characters who can't deal with planking are bad, and I'd say most of them can anyway so it's not a big deal. (I mean really what's broken about Pit's planking? Or ROB's planking? The only two potential problems i can see is DK's planking and G&W's planking, but I suspect there are ways around them)

Oh and the other problem with a LGL, is it forces characters to get off the ledge just to get punished.
e.g. DK can get off the ledge if the opponent is forced to try and get him off the ledge, because it creates more opportunities to get back on-stage.
But with a LGL they can just wait on stage and basically punish any of his options.
That's totally unfair >.>

Grim Tuesday · Sep 13, 2011

You know what, I'm going to request that this thread be closed for now.

I'll bring this topic up again once I have some concrete data on:
a) The invulnerability of MK's planking.
b) The vulnerability of everyone else's planking.

+ I'll write a massive essay showing how stupid a global LGL is and countering every argument I can think of, look forward to it peeps.

Budget Player Cadet_ · Sep 13, 2011

Grim Tuesday said:
This is a hilarious post coming from Mr. "Everyone Else is a Scrub". How about learning to counter a tactic before proclaiming it's broken? Mmm?

Hey, maybe I like not being the only person at tournaments.

Also worth bringing up: There is a character who, last I checked, you support the legality of who kills the viability of more characters than planking does.

...Characters who the rest of high tier **** anyways (seriously, just about every character MK counters gets countered almost as hard by some other top tier).

And what about the characters who have their viability improved by planking? Jigglypuff's hard counters become slightly easier to beat, R.O.B. NEEDS to plank against some characters like King Dedede, DK gets ***** by Olimar if he can't plank. Samus is almost completely unusable without the ledge in a large amount of match-ups.

Legitimate point. Global LGLs may not be the best idea, but what would you propose? A matchup-by-matchup LGL?

Grim Tuesday · Sep 13, 2011

Changed my mind, I'll leave this open and hopefully get some ideas from it for the big essay.

Budget Player Cadet_ said:
...Characters who the rest of high tier **** anyways (seriously, just about every character MK counters gets countered almost as hard by some other top tier).

Donkey Kong, R.O.B. and King Dedede all get ***** by high tiers?

The characters who planking "invalidates" (everyone can beat it basically, just fyi), are already unviable too, lol.

Legitimate point. Global LGLs may not be the best idea, but what would you propose? A matchup-by-matchup LGL?

I propose no LGL at all because there is no reason to differentiate planking from other tactics that invalidate characters with ease.

Why should we limit planking in the DK/Olimar match-up for example without giving Oli a grab limit, hmm?

Cassio · Sep 13, 2011

Grim Tuesday said:
Sorry, but, who the **** are you?

Since its semi-relevant Ive used pika since the game came out.

Look, if you think that you can safely prevent MK from re-grabbing the ledge when he has 5 jumps, Mach Tornado, Shuttle Loop, air dodges and a glide, feel free to continue living in a fantasy world where Pikachu is S Tier and has enough options to mess with all that ****.

Pikachu never does anything safely. Pretty much everything he does involves the risk of taking damage. However the reason he doesnt get curve stomped by MK, Marth, Zelda, Mario, Luigi, etc. who do have safe attacks on him is because he does have enough options to mess with all that ****. At least until I see an MK glide jump airdodging shuttle loop with mach tornado. Im not saying MK is incapable of winning a planking confrontation, I'm saying its not broken in this MU.

Pika also has a hard time vs characters that can limit his options by throwing **** at him like Olimar and Diddy.

Read DMG's post. To beat planking you need to be able to beat MK's off-stage game as he can seamlessly transition between them.

Ok, but thats a longer and more elaborate conversation that would need someone very knowledgable on the pika/mk MU. You also dont need to beat his offstage game. Him moving onto the stage would be enough.

Grim Tuesday · Sep 13, 2011

You also dont need to beat his offstage game. Him moving onto the stage would be enough.

You're correct, sorry.

Ghostbone · Sep 13, 2011

Budget Player Cadet_ said:
Legitimate point. Global LGLs may not be the best idea, but what would you propose? A matchup-by-matchup LGL?

This is a terrible idea just because there's no reason to distinguish between a match-up LGL and a blizzard limit and a chain-grab limit and a uair limit and a laser limit and a chain limit and so on...

Until we have a rule book, and we ask ourselves why don't we just play BBrawl, which would be closer to Brawl than what we've turned the game into >.>

DMG · Sep 13, 2011

If MK moves onstage, what stops him from going back to the edge?

Unless Pika on the edge is so safe that he can prevent MK from doing that, while also being able to get back onstage safely himself.

Like I have said before, tactics and methods to stop planking are inherently complex in nature because Planking is complex. You can't cover broad planking with very specific measures.

Ghostbone · Sep 13, 2011

DMG said:
If MK moves onstage, what stops him from going back to the edge?

Unless Pika on the edge is so safe that he can prevent MK from doing that, while also being able to get back onstage safely himself.

Like I have said before, tactics and methods to stop planking are inherently complex in nature because Planking is complex. You can't cover broad planking with very specific measures.

Pika can get off the ledge quickly and punish MK getting on-stage I presume.

Budget Player Cadet_ · Sep 13, 2011

Grim Tuesday said:
Donkey Kong, R.O.B. and King Dedede all get ***** by high tiers?

ROB gets **** on by Falco and ZSS, DK loses badly to DDD and ICs (IIRC), and DDD gets wrecked by Falco and ICs. I may be wrong, this is just what I remember. ROB doesn't lose to anyone as badly as MK, but I still doubt he'd be that much better with MK gone.

The characters who planking "invalidates" (everyone can beat it basically, just fyi), are already unviable too, lol.

All right, imagine that suddenly it turns out that Kirby has a move that he can use that only affects characters with a certain weight. Those with a weight of 100 or more are the only ones that get hit. The move is executed by passing a lower blastzone while in stone and pressing 236A simultaneously; something that is not likely to happen naturally. It's a OHKO that hits the entire stage (and teleports Kirby upwards to make him avoid dying). It's a move that completely invalidates a fairly large swath of the cast, simply because they have absolutely no options against it, beyond go offstage and try to hit kirby.

(Let's just assume, for the sake of example, that planking with several members of the cast, like DK, G&W, Pit, and the like invalidates certain other members of the cast in just as harsh of a manner as this attack does)

Would you support banning this attack? Kirby isn't broken because of it, it just turns him into a shoe-in hard counter for several well-liked and established characters. But would this mean that Snake is unviable? That Wario is unviable? What if multiple characters had access to the move?

I propose no LGL at all because there is no reason to differentiate planking from other tactics that invalidate characters with ease.

Like non-IC infinites? Last I checked, infinites forced a high-risk, high-reward situation for a few matchups, not every matchup. The closest comparison to, say, pit's planking that I can find would be walkoff camping, which we banned for some reason.

Why should we limit planking in the DK/Olimar match-up for example without giving Oli a grab limit, hmm?

Because double standards are not worse than losing tournament attendance, and DK doesn't automatically lose when he loses the lead; he simply needs a few good reads.

Look, it's not that I don't see the issue with this logic ("Why don't we ban infinites? Nobody likes those either!"). It's just that to an extent, we have to think pragmatically. We can craft the perfect ruleset (1 stock, food on high) but it won't matter a bit if nobody will try or use it.

Supreme Dirt · Sep 13, 2011

Dedede also gets wrecked by Pikachu, Olimar, and Diddy. We lose to like all of top tier, lol.

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