“There are no low tier characters, only low tier players.”

[MorpheusVGX]

Tiers are created by a mix of character prowess and player prowess. They can change if people train with low tiers, but they either prefer a top tier character or are defeated in tournaments. I main Kirby and I would go to tournaments with him. I don't care about tiers.. just for the fact that I need to develop strategies to fight top tiers.

 

[SFJake]

As long as there will be different characters with at least one difference in moves or stats, there will be tiers. Fact and undeniable.

Different moves and abilities means different overall effectiveness against the entire cast and in a variety of situations. Meaning tiers. Player skill don't change tiers either.


Why there are still stupid discussions about it... if you can just understand what Tiers are you can't deny their existence.

 

[Takeshi245]

As long as there will be different characters with at least one difference in moves or stats, there will be tiers. Fact and undeniable.

Different moves and abilities means different overall effectiveness against the entire cast and in a variety of situations. Meaning tiers. Player skill don't change tiers either.


Why there are still stupid discussions about it... if you can just understand what Tiers are you can't deny their existence.

SFJake FTW!

 

[LP4Life666]

Denying that some characters are better than others is only wishful thinking. My AK47 will always be better than your slingshot at killing multiple targets in the shortest amount of time. It's not that my AK47 is cheap because it shoots faster bullets, its just that its designed to be better. Same goes for the characters in Brawl, some are just designed better to do their job than others.

Unless your slingshot shoots AK-47's out of it. That would just be totally kick ***.

Edit:

As long as there will be different characters with at least one difference in moves or stats, there will be tiers. Fact and undeniable.

Nice jake...Very insightful.

 

[Ryazan]

Sure. Tiers don't exist. Because things like speed, priority, damage/launch potential and damage/launch resistance don't matter at all. Right.

/sarcasm

 

[S.R. XXVII]

Denying that some characters are better than others is only wishful thinking. My AK47 will always be better than your slingshot at killing multiple targets in the shortest amount of time. It's not that my AK47 is cheap because it shoots faster bullets, its just that its designed to be better. Same goes for the characters in Brawl, some are just designed better to do their job than others.

Unless your slingshot shoots AK-47's out of it. That would just be totally kick ***.

Edit:
Nice jake...Very insightful.

LMAO!
And yeah, tiers exits. Point blank. If you don't like it, go play single player games.
And chances are, there will be tiers there too, in some form.

 

[Supercakes]

This arguement is ********.

Dedede has a chaingrab, while others don't. Because chaingrabs are good, Dedede is good.
Metaknight has lagfree moves, while others don't. Because that's good, Metaknight is good.

If a person isn't using what's good in a character, they're ********.

 

[Ryazan]

Supercakes, I would just like to point out the irony of calling an argument ******** and contributing anyway.

 

[AgentJGV]

Its still based how how good the player is. No matter how good a Character is if the player can't use them.

 

[Airwalkerr]

Its still based how how good the player is. No matter how good a Character is if the player can't use them.

Well, yeah. But we are not talking about some 7 year old kid who thinks meta knight looks cool. We're talking about people who understand and play their characters at the highest level possible. Still, I kind of disagree with a lot of these arguments. Tiers are based on tournament results, not NECESSARILY which character is better. Sure, Snake is awesome. He can be very good with relatively little effort, and so people play as him and win. Luigi can be really good with MORE effort, but people hear about Snake winning, and completely ignore Luigi.

 

[AgentJGV]

Tiers are based on tournament results, not NECESSARILY which character is better.

Exactaly! therefore what the tiers do is tell us who is the most popular character. If more people play a certain character, the that character is more likely to win in Tournaments.

 

[Zankoku]

You're wrong. Tiers are not based entirely on tournament results.

 

[Goodies]

Actually, that doesn't prove tiers exist. In fact, it points to why tiers are impossible.

You are cloning yourself. One of you uses Meta-Knight and the other uses Falcon, but you are better with Meta-Knight (which is probably the case). Of course the Meta-Knight wins becuase you can't use Falcon.

Bascially, theirs can be close but can never be exact, and tiers can be wrong. They are relative. It is based that if two players are equally good, then the higher tier character can win. But it is almost impossible for that to happen, and if one character got more attention then another by the community it creates a self fulfilling prophesy. So, teirs can be a guide at best but there is no way for it to be perfect.

But also, don't let it sway your opinion. In numerous other fighting games, low tier characters have been able to fight and win against high tiers. Don't let anything stop you from using your characters. Especially with Brawl, as there are no absolutely worthless characters.

Most of this is what tier enthusiasts are trying to say to begin with. as far as brawl is concerned, tiers are not set in stone, but it can be readily agreed upon that meta knight is a better character than CF. they prly wont be exact, but it is a very good guide to what chars are better than others. but every character is a counter to someone, so dont let tiers decide your character for you

 

[AgentJGV]

but still thats what you see

 

[VEC]

lol a TOP tier broken Char user made this thread getting owned by low tiers. Figures

 

[FAILchion-]

Now I know where you got the poll on N-B from, Mario. =P

 

[Fire!]

lol a TOP tier broken Char user made this thread getting owned by low tiers. Figures

Oh. So the fact that I main Mario competitively means nothing huh? Next time, read the topic.

 

[superyoshi888]

LOL! "tires don exits v2.0" in the tags.

Sadly, tiers do exist. If I would go to tournys as Pichu, then I would get my *** kicked. As much as I like Pichu, he won't do good. The same applys to Brawl, but to a lesser extent. Some characters still have a chance, the tiers aren't set in stone yet, and most likely never will be. However, as long as Snake and Meta Knight are inherently better than, say, Sonic and Captain Falcon, then they likely will win, if the person playing as them are equal skill. But that is not saying Sonic will never beat Snake, but instead that Snake is most likely to win in a match between them.

 

[Pink Reaper]

tires don exits. Dan Hibiki is just as good as Akuma, you just suck.

 

[White Pikmin]

tiers don exist!

super sonic is cheap, though considering that he is unavoidable

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

tires don exits. Dan Hibiki is just as good as Akuma, you just suck.

Woot at SF reference

 

[BBQ°]

If the best Brawl player played as Ganondorf, it would be easier to beat him than if he used Snake. This is because some characters are better than others.

 

[Ryazan]

tires don exits. Dan Hibiki is just as good as Akuma, you just suck.

Uh...since when?

 

[SmashChu]

Its still based how how good the player is. No matter how good a Character is if the player can't use them.

THIS IS THE ONLY PERSON WHO MADE ANY SENSE FOR THE LAST THREE PAGES

Ok, you listening.
Skill> Teirs. Always has, always will. All tiers say that if the players are on equal levels and dont have conflicting play styles or some kind of odd match-up then tiers determine the winner. However, that wont happen very often. AND a low tier character can beat a high tier.

Capt. Falcon and Ganondorf can wipe the floor with Snake and it is very possible. Tiers are a guide at best. There can be some truth, but it will never be definitive, and it only applies to tournament play.

Basically, every idiot think tiers are fact and it's not. Skill is what matters. Tiers can only help.

 

[AgentJGV]

Thank you SmashChu
(hey that rhymes)

 

[DD151]

Skill> Teirs. Always has, always will. All tiers say that if the players are on equal levels and dont have conflicting play styles or some kind of odd match-up then tiers determine the winner. However, that wont happen very often. AND a low tier character can beat a high tier.

Capt. Falcon and Ganondorf can wipe the floor with Snake and it is very possible. Tiers are a guide at best. There can be some truth, but it will never be definitive, and it only applies to tournament play.

Basically, every idiot think tiers are fact and it's not. Skill is what matters. Tiers can only help.

what are you even arguing against? there is already a consensus that skill transcends tiers and that players of equal skill are subject to the tier list to determine a match's outcome (individual matchups aside). tiers are a fact, and you just conceded that.

 

[gorgon.]

Ugh, another tier dispute. Here's my input:

Tiers exist. Yeah.

Tiers are not commandments: the low tier will not always lose and the high tier will not always win. But, assuming the two players are almost equally if not equally matched, the high tier will win most (key word, most) of his matches.

There have been people saying skill>tiers: wake up, people. Tiers assume that the two opponents are almost equally if not equally matched. Skill obviously dictates who will win, but as soon as the two players' skill levels are close/the same, tiers come into play.

If the low tier player is great and the high tier player is a n00b, the high tier may lose every match. Wow, big deal. This does not disprove tiers because the skill level was not close to equal.

And tiers are not competely based on tourney results: also matchups, metagames, among other factors.

what are you even arguing against? there is already a consensus that skill transcends tiers and that players of equal skill are subject to the tier list to determine a match's outcome (individual matchups aside). tiers are a fact, and you just conceded that.

QFT. Nicely phrased.

Summary: Tiers exist, tiers assume the two opponents are equally skilled, stop whining.

 

[Clustercluck]

Isn't this a pointless debate, whether tiers "exist" or not? I mean, ipso facto, they exist because we say they do, but the question is "do they matter?". Oh, sure, they matter if you're sitting there after the tournament scratching your neckbeard as your voice cracks while you say "I only lost because I use Captain Falcon! You're cheap!". They matter if you're telling your friends how you're the best but you only lost because he used snake and you used captain falcon.

Honestly, whining about tiers won't change a thing. Play a character you enjoy playing, and if there's a character that is a bad matchup for you, don't just sit there wiping tears away while you complain about how unfair it is, figure out what you can do about it. I don't disagree that there are some characters that are "better", but how does complaining about it help? Do you think nintendo will patch them out or re-release the game? They won't. So deal with it, or play a different game.

 

[Zodiac]

Meta knight is cheap
Snake is Cheap

this is a well known fact.

they are high tier.

players are a huge influence on how well the character places on the list, frankly though

the gap between the top tier's MK, and snake and the rest of the characters are bigger than the gap between fox and roy in melee's tier list.

 

[gorgon.]

Meta knight is cheap
Snake is Cheap

this is a well known fact.

they are high tier.

players are a huge influence on how well the character places on the list, frankly though

the gap between the top tier's MK, and snake and the rest of the characters are bigger than the gap between fox and roy in melee's tier list.

Snake and Meta are cheap? *coughjohncough*

 

[Drunken_Dragon]

If you call something cheap in a fighter, stop playing it competatively. If you call something cheap in every fighter, stop playing competatively period.

 

[Septuagint]

What defines a cheap person? Apparently, my bro is called cheap because he spams all his attacks, but if people are dumb enough to fall for the same move, its' their fault. Who ever shields and dodges well, doesn't worry about a Tier list. It's a good reference, but I'm not gonna stop using my main, if he happens to be a low Tier dude.

 

[AgentJGV]

What defines a cheap person? Apparently, my bro is called cheap because he spams all his attacks, but if people are dumb enough to fall for the same move, its' their fault.

Like i said before. The only respose to being cheap is No Johns.

 

[Pink Reaper]

tires don exits. Dan Hibiki is just as good as Akuma, you just suck.

I stand by my statement.

 

[Septuagint]

Like i said before. The only respose to being cheap is No Johns.

I'm a noob, so I don't know what "No Johns" means.

 

[Fire!]

No excuses.


And to those still talking about tiers only: Read the first Post Already!!! I know tiers exist I'm not an idiot. The title is misleading I know, but you really should read before posting.

What I'm trying to convey is that
"There are no CHEAP characters, only CHEAP players"

 

[gorgon.]

Okay, fine.

But you're wrong. First of all, cheap is a john, even if it is not applied to an element of the game. Calling anything cheap is a worthless excuse for you losing. So really, "There are no CHEAP characters, and there are also no CHEAP players, because CHEAP is a JOHN."

Secondly, this "cheapness" you refer to (campy playstyles, etc.) is what will win you Brawls with many characters. With all of the ridiculous projectiles and enhanced defensive capabilities and options, coupled with the decreased ability to approach and combo, these campy playstyles are usually the best way to win, especially with characters like ROB with a great recovery and great projectiles.

As far as spamming, if it's working, I see no reason not to. If a move is good, use it. If your opponent gets caught in it every time, all the better. Spamming shouldn't work, and if anyone is stupid enough to fall prey to someone using the same move over and over, they should try to get better (note that I'm referring to moves and not projectiles; I count projectile spam as camping.) I haven't seen stale move negation having a big impact on anything but tourney play, so who cares? If it works, spam away.

Yeah sure, some players have so-called "cheap" playstyles. Those are the smart people. People are calling camping "cheap" because they're losing to it.

 

[Zankoku]

What I'm trying to convey is that
"There are no CHEAP characters, only CHEAP players"

No johns.

Let me put it to you this way. In other words,
"There are no CHEAP players, only SORE LOSERS."

 

[Mac Matrix]

Not wanting to start/worsen the debate on this in any way.

But personally I do feel that it's more down to the player than the character. A good player who trains and practices with a character endlessly will get better with that character. A bad player can only stay bad. O_o

I mean I use Yoshi and he's not a high tier character at all. Go figure.

I would debate my opinion on this further but it's due to my opinion of what makes a character a high or low tier, and I'm not sure if it's appropriate for this topic, or another.

 

[Yuna]

I vehemently disagree and can honestly say that I believe anyone who agrees to be one of the following:
* An idiot
* Intellectually challenged
* Possibly mentally challenged
* Uninformed
* Uninformed and not willing to learn when I or others tell them why they're wrong be it in a calm manner or a very harsh manner
* An really, really big idiot

If you feel you do not fall into any of these categories, you're either just wrong or unable to come to terms with that you're either one of the most likely suspects:
* Uninformed
* An idiot