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I agree. Pikachu is unpopular due to the "lab-rat" requirements. Where as you can use Doc, Samus and Luigi far easier and to an extent better than almost every other Pikachu main.
His up-B is difficult to use in general, but especially when being used to edgehog/edgeguard or when it needs to be ledgecancelled (something Axe only rarely uses due to the risk of missing). His combos are heavily dependent on precision uairs. He racks up damage so slowly that the positioning at the end of a combo is usually more valuable than the damage itself. This means that dropping the combo at any point before the opponent is off stage is almost worthless, whereas other characters can drop a combo in the middle of the stage and still be content with a solid 30-50%. His grab also seems to require a lot of precision because of its short range. In situations where Marth can weave around approaches or attacks relatively easily in order to grab, Pikachu must weave much closer and waste less frames order to get the same types of grabs. These are the main aspects of Pikachu I found technically demanding when I dabbled with him not too long ago, but I wouldn't put them even in the same league as spacie tech skill so I don't see why anyone would care about how technically demanding any of those characters are. Past mid level, it shouldn't even be a factor for non-spacies.
hmmmm this is a good point.... I guess I just consider any character that's not fox, falco, peach, or yoshi to be essentially the same technically...
Yeah, that simply isn't the case. Most other mid tiers don't have the requirements Pikachu has while doing just as well without 'em
Ehh... No. Luigi and Doc, while arguably not as good as Pikachu aren't gimmicks. You can do so much better with the two without having to practice as often, while being solid themselves. Samus is better than Pikachu, no argument.
Falcon's polarizing flaws make him significantly easier to exploit for Sheik (can't sweetspot, bad tech roll, terrible OoS options, high falling speed, etc.). S2J and M2K's GF set at SSS is wayyyyy more painful to watch than Pikachad's and M2K's GF set (and I don't think its necessary to point out that S2J is a significantly better player than Pikachad). IIRC, neither Hax or Mango have been able to take a set off M2K's sheik with falcon. (A feat Axe has already accomplished with Pikachu). So unless you feel like Axe is "better" than the likes of Mango or Hax, we have more evidence to suggest that the MU is worse for Falcon at top level play.
"Just as good"? Are you serious? Axe and aMSa have out-placed Shroomed at almost every major event this year lol. He has been outright surpassed as a player.
Lol then you should know that popularity creates a higher frequency of results.
This isn't a conference to exchange information, Sveet. People post what they believe in and people respond with what they believe in.
IIRC = If I Recall/Remember Correctly. I openly prefaced the statement with the possibility I was wrong; asserting it as fact is your own interpretation.
No, do elaborate.
Whatever personal beliefs you hold about arguing and how you may perceive me to break them is irrelevant since that purpose is ultimately subjective.
lol now you are resorting to borderline flaming. How about instead of pretending to know why I post and implying that breaking your personal rules on forum etiquette is a valid argument... you either:
That's mainly 'cause he keeps trying to play Sheik instead of Doc though. lol Shroomed was placing top 8 at nationals fairly consistently back when he mained Doc.
If anything, Pikachu is the gimmick here. Lol. It almost all boils down to that up-air for Pikachu, whereas Doc/Luigi are both quite well-rounded by comparison. Still, a great gimmick can beat a good balance, which is why I'd still put Pikachu above Mario.
What do you consider Pikachu's main weaknesses as a character? I think his biggest problem is, sort of like what I touched on earlier, that he is very all or nothing. His combos are almost pointless unless done to completion where the opponent is off stage, but honestly this doesn't even apply to the FFers because his usmash (out of uthrow or tech chases) gives him decent enough damage vs. them. It's mainly floaties where he feels very linear because building damage almost isn't an option, but you can't gimp people every stock (or can you?). The fact that his usmash KOs at ridiculous percents definitely makes his inability to build damage a lot less of an issue. If he were anything like Marth in the KOing department he'd be awful, but he has the strongest usmash in the game that comes on frame 7(?).
Pikachu is a bad character, but falcon is also pretty terrible. I dont think it really matters if falcon is higher than pika, however it is true that if pikachu blows vs both spacies then falcon is straight up booty butt cheeks and MUs vs spacies define character relevance and will only continue to do so more. In that sense a reasonable argument does exist for pika being higher (not that Id personally agree). I do agree that falcon has a much better MU spread vs everyone else (maybe not jiggs? pika seems to lose but its not too bad).
A 3 frame disjointed combo starting move is a gimmick? I guess Marths sword must be a gimmick too. Pikachu might suck at the highest level play but at least he exists there, Doc and Luigi don't even have a place.
Well, if character switching has taught us anything, the changes have been predominantly lateral (Mango's peak skill isn't too deviated from character to character, Hax took a while to surpass his Falcon; still lost to Abate after the switch, etc, etc.)
Could you explain why Pika is considered so bad vs. Spacies? I've often seen the mid and low level community (particularly pika mains) say he is bad, but commentators and high level community play him up. Why the divide?
Wait what....? How can you say his placings are roughly the same but hes worse...? Wouldn't his similar placings indicate that he is just as good relatively?
I'll add some context to my opinion, but I dont really want to argue too heavily about this since I doubt it will lead to agreement or anywhere productive. I think anyone who can't handle shine is pretty bad vs spacies, which is almost everyone. Shine completely negates a fundamental aspect of the RPS options in the smash series, shielding. Its also why I can think of Samus as potentially a better character than Pika, invincible up-b out of shield is one of the best things to deal with this moves (of course she still loses both MUs for other reasons). For pika its unfortunate because he has one of the best oos options in the game (uair). However compared to most characters pika can be considered good vs spacies for reasons im sure have been stated many times. So yes pika has some tools that are better than what marth and others have vs spacies I think I agree with all of what you said, but his inability to deal with shine (his shield does him no favors here) make both spacies among pikachus worst if not outright worst MU. Essentially pikachu has to play RPS while Fox and Falco are playing tic-tac-toe (a better analogy probably exists but Ill use this for now).
Pretty much agree, I think his biggest issue is his relative lack of mixups & approaches in neutral
I am referring to his 2014 placings being roughly the same as his Apex 2014 one (I was comparing Shroomed to Shroomed). Axe has primarily out placed Shroomed all this year (whereas last year, Shroomed generally out placed Axe).
I am still confused in regards to the specifics of your opinion. How would you label Pikachu vs. Fox/Falco (On the range of Even, Soft Counter, Counter, Hard Counter)? And do you think that shine and shield pressure is just the ultimate achilles heel for him in the MU?
Timing isn't the only thing with nair; execution can also be a mix up since cross up nair can be used to punish generic OoS responses.
Ok, I was just confused by your wording, I thought you were saying that shroomed is playing worse now than he played at Apex 2014. Thanks for clarifying..
Pikachu has some very rough matchups (especially Jiggs) I just think Axe wins because he's good not because of his character. Just look at Scorpionmaster vs Mew2king. Also I think there's a reason Samus is by far the most popular and most used character in the mid tier of the current tier list and that reason is most likely because Samus works for them. Sure Hugs and Plup are great but I'm still waiting for someone to master Samus to it's full extent. Anyway That's my opinion for the time being we'll see what happens in future tournaments. I understand that you find some of my placings contreversial
I would label the MU not fun (honestly cant put a label on it atm). I think shine and shield pressure force pikachu (and most of the cast) to make risky guesses that are likely to not play out in his favor. I think if pikachu makes enough correct guesses he can win but as a matter of probability, that probability is low unless hes at a different skill level than his opponent. However since it is probability there are times when pika will win, and this is better than what many other members of the cast have.
Either way, hes does good things high tiers do but worse.
You don't understand why it's gimmicky? It's got so many hitboxes with so many diverse properties. You have to treat this move, both offensively and defensively, in a way that has little in common with almost any other move. It's a fantastic move, but it's quite gimmicky in comparison to, say, the bairs for the mario bros, or even Marth's tipper system.
