Meta 2015 Community Tier List Voting

[MurphyPrime]

Once they get a grab, Ice climbers should theoretically kill the opponent. But getting the grab is hard, requiring heavy reads.

 

[Plunder]

Once they get a grab, Ice climbers should theoretically kill the opponent. But getting the grab is hard, requiring heavy reads.

Not really.....there are tons of easy ways to get a grab off aerials, blizzard, and ground moves.

Plus WD grab to punish bad shield pressure = easy grabs.

There are very few ICs that showcase their full potential/tech, it would be very scary if every IC main had the finesse that people like Wobbles, Chudat, or Nintendude have. And if those three were as relentless and heartless as dizzkidboogie....ICs could pose a major threat.

Fly Amanita deserves a mention of course, but he seems to actively avoid wobbling. If he wobbled every chance he got he'd no doubt place much higher overall.

 

[MurphyPrime]

Yeah, I did over exaggerate their approach. It's not that bad. But it's still not super easy.

 

[NotEvenAmatueR]

Here is the tier list I made. Thoughts?

S= Major tournament viable

A= Viable

B= Have problems, but can still be viable.

C= Situational at best.

D= Never Use.

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:

 

[pichuplayer]

Here is the tier list I made. Thoughts?

S= Major tournament viable

A= Viable

B= Have problems, but can still be viable.

C= Situational at best.

D= Never Use.

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:

only complaint about this list Pichu above roy needs to happen otherwise its pretty good

 

[Mastodon]

So, like, when are we actually going to see a tier list update?

 

[WinterShorts]

So, like, when are we actually going to see a tier list update?

In the year 20XX.


But in all seriousness I honestly don't know.

 

[PineTree2.0]

20XX tier list

S:

A:

B:

C:

D:

F:

N/A: Everyone else

 

[WinterShorts]

20XX tier list

S:

A:

B:

C:

D:

F:

N/A: Everyone else

Even Flaco?

 

[PineTree2.0]

Even Flaco?

Even Falco

 

[Jim Jam Flim Flam]

Here is the tier list I made. Thoughts?

S= Major tournament viable

A= Viable

B= Have problems, but can still be viable.

C= Situational at best.

D= Never Use.

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:

Personally, I don't think samus and pikachu can be put in the same tier as peach, puff, ICs and falcon. Pika and Samus are certainly tournament viable but there is clearly a massive discrepancy between Pikachu and peach. To me, it would make more sense to put them in the same tier as luigi and doc. I can't see what Pikachu has that puts him an entire tier above luigi and doc.

 

[NotEvenAmatueR]

Personally, I don't think samus and pikachu can be put in the same tier as peach, puff, ICs and falcon. Pika and Samus are certainly tournament viable but there is clearly a massive discrepancy between Pikachu and peach. To me, it would make more sense to put them in the same tier as luigi and doc. I can't see what Pikachu has that puts him an entire tier above luigi and doc.

Personally, I put Samus so high because of these reasons.
-Her recovery, combined with her weight, means she is practically guranteed to live to very high percents horizontally.
-Her strange floatiness in a way makes her strangely difficult to fight against and combo.
-Her projectiles force their opponent to play around them, and at any given time, she can do well at keeping opponents out.
-Really, the only stage that is really bad for her is Yoshi's. The other stages for her are usually solid picks.
- Her Matchups against the other viables are actually pretty good. She goes even IMO with , beats , and her matchups against really aren't too bad.
-Her tilts are very solid.

I put Pikachu among the viables because:
-His recovery is among the best in the game, and there are tons of ways you can mix it up.
-His matchup spread I actually think has improved a ton with recent knowledge of the game. I think he beats , loses only slightly to , has doable matchups against , and goes even with .
-Axe
-In general, I feel Pikachu is an incredibly underexplored character that has the potential to be viable and can stand among them if we explore his meta a little more.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

When will pika players realize how good Fair is for confirming edgeguards? Move is underused as hell.

And Pika going even with Peach, beating Falcon, hell even going even with Puff? But seriously, going even with peach... I also think that the falco MU is worse than the fox MU but I don't really have solid evidence.

 

[NotEvenAmatueR]

When will pika players realize how good Fair is for confirming edgeguards? Move is underused as hell.

And Pika going even with Peach, beating Falcon, hell even going even with Puff?

I don't play Pika often. Hell, my matchup information is probably completely wrong with Pikachu, but I still find the character underrated and underexplored.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

You should not vote a character higher based on skepticism. If they havent been explored, there is no basis for them to be above those who are explored.

 

[Thor]

-Her projectiles force their opponent to play around them, and at any given time, she can do well at keeping opponents out.
-Really, the only stage that is really bad for her is Yoshi's. The other stages for her are usually solid picks.
- Her Matchups against the other viables are actually pretty good. She goes even IMO with , beats , and her matchups against really aren't too bad.
-His matchup spread I actually think has improved a ton with recent knowledge of the game. I think he beats , loses only slightly to , has doable matchups against , and goes even with .
.

This is so wrong on so many levels... Samus DEFINITELY loses to Jigglypuff [ask a Samus main], except when she has a charge shot fully charged and stored [then it's about even until charge shot is fired], and the Sheik MU is still pretty awful.

For Pikachu, the Falco MU is pretty bad, and Pikachu gets destroyed by Puff, Peach, and Ice Climbers [Peach: there is a reason Armada has never lost to Axe... some Pikachu mains rank it the second or third hardest MU Pikachu has] [Puff: usmash kills her at 50%, but how the heck do you usmash Puff???] [the reason you almost never see Axe use ICs vs *insert good ICs main* is because that MU is incredibly hard... Pikachu has poor tools to avoid getting grabbed due to having bad anti-CC tools outside of usmash and grab, which are shield-grabbable and outranged by ICs grab respectively, and his tools to split them up are also pretty bad... CC grab is devastating in this matchup], while having a very rough time against Sheik.

The ironic part of this is that I don't even really question your placement of Pikachu except for maybe moving him down one or two slots, but only because the characters below him have their own host of problems...

I have some thoughts on your list but they're mostly small things so whatever.

 

[Jim Jam Flim Flam]

Personally, I put Samus so high because of these reasons.
-Her recovery, combined with her weight, means she is practically guranteed to live to very high percents horizontally.
-Her strange floatiness in a way makes her strangely difficult to fight against and combo.
-Her projectiles force their opponent to play around them, and at any given time, she can do well at keeping opponents out.
-Really, the only stage that is really bad for her is Yoshi's. The other stages for her are usually solid picks.
- Her Matchups against the other viables are actually pretty good. She goes even IMO with , beats , and her matchups against really aren't too bad.
-Her tilts are very solid.

I put Pikachu among the viables because:
-His recovery is among the best in the game, and there are tons of ways you can mix it up.
-His matchup spread I actually think has improved a ton with recent knowledge of the game. I think he beats , loses only slightly to , has doable matchups against , and goes even with .
-Axe
-In general, I feel Pikachu is an incredibly underexplored character that has the potential to be viable and can stand among them if we explore his meta a little more.

As a pikachu main, I can confirm that my hardest matchup is by far the Ice Climbers. Any top 8 character, I think, has doable matchups with all other top 8 characters. For the most extreme example, ICs lose to Peach, but it is doable, if only slightly. However, ICs completely destroy pikachu. Pikachu does not have a single safe tool, save maybe for the occasional drop down up air, to separate the ICs, and because pikachu has no disjointed approach moves, he is always at risk of being grabbed and being wobbled. These kind of things are, in my opinion, what keep Pikachu from being put in the same tier as characters like Peach. As another example, Pikachu has an incredibly difficult time killing floaties. Fox, for example, has up throw to up air and jab to upsmash or up air on puff. He has waveshine to upsmash on peach. He has lasers to camp slow moving floaties. Pikachu has none of this. His only good floaty kill move, upsmash, has no setups. He must get a random one to kill off the top. Otherwise, he has to use nair to get floaties off the stage, and hope he can gimp them.
In general, all top 8 characters, except maybe falcon, have the tools to shut down pikachu's approaches. It seems to me that he has no winning matchups amongst the top 8, although he does have a pretty even MU against falcon. Pikachu is an uncommon character, and I can understand why he may seem very good due to Axe's performances, but he does not have the tools to be grouped with characters like Peach.
I am of coursed biased, as I am a Pikachu main, but I think Pikachu falls just outside the range of the top 8 or so characters, due to his lack of approach options, no guaranteed kill moves, and only 3 or so decent disjointed moves that are rather situational.

When will pika players realize how good Fair is for confirming edgeguards? Move is underused as hell.

And Pika going even with Peach, beating Falcon, hell even going even with Puff? But seriously, going even with peach... I also think that the falco MU is worse than the fox MU but I don't really have solid evidence.

IMO Falco is harder to deal with than fox and sheik. He completely shuts down all of pika's approaches with nair, dair, or crouch cancel shine. Even when he shields, he can shine oos and beat out all of pika's moves. And his dair and shine lead into pillar combos which are very hard for pikachu to escape.

 

[NotEvenAmatueR]

Got it. I'll leave this page. I'm too scrubby to say anything worthwhile on this topic. Sorry for posting a really bad tier list.

 

[pichuplayer]

Got it. I'll leave this page. I'm too scrubby to say anything worthwhile on this topic. Sorry for posting a really bad tier list.

tbh it was not bad it was good

 

[ZeroBlindDragon]

MudkipUniverse I just want to point out that Peach destroys Pikachu. They do not go even at all. /r/ssbm says this match-up is 65-35 in Peach's favor, which is Pikachu's second worst (behind Ice Climbers). Pikachu also gets beaten up by Jigglypuff and Captain Falcon.

http://challonge.com/fr/SSBMMatchup

 

[Jim Jam Flim Flam]

Got it. I'll leave this page. I'm too scrubby to say anything worthwhile on this topic. Sorry for posting a really bad tier list.

It's good that you're contributing to this discussion. Unless you make a troll post, you're adding something useful to the discussion. I'm sorry if I seemed condescending in my response, that was not my intent. As long as you can learn from what other people post, and you can keep an open mind about the tier list, keep posting - asking questions, responding. You input is just as valuable as mine.
Just because you're scrubby doesn't mean you can't discuss the tier list. I think it's good for understanding more about the game, and it's good that you accepted critique of your tier list. As long as you learned about the tier list, and had a good discussion, it's all good man

 

[Benks]

S:
A+:
A-:
B:
C:
D:
F:

 

[TheJolteon]

Not really much of a melee player but I have played so I hope I can contribute something.

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
F:

 

[Archelon]

When will the tier list be released/ if it has been realeased where can I find it?

 

[Dire Creeper]

When will the tier list be released/ if it has been realeased where can I find it?

It's still being worked on. People have asked this for the past two pages.

 

[pichuplayer]

It's still being worked on. People have asked this for the past two pages.

longer believe it or not i should know cause i've answered most of them with the same thing XD

 

[TDK]

S:
A+:
A-:
B:
C:
D:
F:

One: Why on earth is Fox in his own tier?
Two: Why on earth is Falcon above Peach?

 

[TDK]

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
F:

This is a pretty darn good tier list. Just one question: Why is yoshi so high?

 

[pichuplayer]

This is a pretty darn good tier list. Just one question: Why is yoshi so high?

cause its Yoshi bruh do you even Amsa

 

[Archelon]

It's still being worked on. People have asked this for the past two pages.

Sorry...

 

[TDK]

cause its Yoshi bruh do you even Amsa

We're talking about Yoshi, not aMSa.

 

[Dire Creeper]

Sorry...

Not trying to be rude or anything.

 

[Myougi]

Personal Tier List, mainly constructed with a variety of MU charts and personal experience. Some characters in the segments (A, B, etc) can be jumbled to a certain extent.

S:

A:

B:

C:

D:

F:

 

[Archelon]

Not trying to be rude or anything.

Oh no I didn't think you were. It's fine, and I'm not being sarcastic here or anything.

 

[Thor]

Got it. I'll leave this page. I'm too scrubby to say anything worthwhile on this topic. Sorry for posting a really bad tier list.

To be fair, your list was actually not bad [like I said, in spite of all of Pikachu's flaws, he still has better than over half the cast... showing how unbalanced Melee really is], but saying "Pikachu Ice Climbers is doable" or "Pikachu Peach/Puff is even" shows that you aren't as informed about Pikachu as you'd like to think [or else you have super secret tech you need to give Axe so he can beat Armada and Hbox and all those ICs players and win some majors].

Also, nearly everyone will object to a tier list somehow or another [if not, we'd have a unanimous tier list], so if you didn't expect some criticism, I'm unsure of why you posted... and most people took issue with like one placement, not all of them, so it's really not a big deal.

Made my list a while ago, but I think it was:



Some notes on it:

- Link > YLink because better Falco MU and doable floaty MUs, and he has platform cancelled aerials [nair and uair] and hits harder leading to a stronger punish game [shield drop platform-cancelled uair can lead to devastating punishes]. Young Link has been pushed to prominence as an anti-floaty character, but from what I've seen, SAUS is more relevant than any Young Link mains [beating Gravy at EVO if I remember correctly]. Link also has that significantly better nair that can help him beat out CC with late nair -> nair or late nair -> uair.

- This was made a while ago, before Abate took top 8 at TBH5, so Luigi's placement there definitely merits reconsideration of Luigi [would likely put him over Yoshi, and perhaps move Doc down below Ganondorf, revising that portion to be ]. Incidentally, I'm definitely least confident/most flexible on the characters listed above from Pikachu to Mario.

- Pichu has an (nigh?)-unwinnable MU against Ice Climbers (I think some have theorized it's harder than Bowser-Sheik) [everything wrong with Pikachu ICs, made even worse by a tech roll so bad that tech-chase grab is almost automatic, among other problems], and Bowser is just awful, being extremely slow and possessing a good OoS move and command grab, with little else. For these reasons, I place Kirby [with a great utilt/dtilt, a good bair, passable fair, and situational but powerful uair/dair] above them.

 

[MurphyPrime]

I'm just curious, how do you determine Doc is below Ganon? Just lack of Doc mains or is there something else? I'm also curious why Roy is where he is. But I agree with the tier list otherwise.

 

[Thor]

I'm just curious, how do you determine Doc is below Ganon? Just lack of Doc mains or is there something else? I'm also curious why Roy is where he is. But I agree with the tier list otherwise.

Doc has a lack of results and a seemingly weaker punish game [Ganon hits you twice and you've taken at least 30%, whereas Doc... doesn't]. I also said "perhaps" because I frankly don't really know whether or or or is most valid [and looking at it again, I think the last one makes most sense, but my opinion is liable to change if someone else raises an objection]. It's why I said my list from Pikachu to Mario is basically putting them down because I have to, not because I really feel my list is super accurate [I'm also not confident Falcon truly belongs below Puff and Peach, but results of the very best players clearly show it, and I'd have no confidence whatsoever that I should move Falcon above either of them either.]

[I am assuming you think I put Roy too high here.] I put Roy is where he is because in spite the fact that his sword is really dagger with a pool noodle strapped to the end [making his attacks unsafe on hit sometimes, even against airborne opponents], he possesses an incredible dash-dance, a few decent if situational/risky anti-CC tools [his amazing grab range, sweetspot dtilt, sweetspot fsmash, DED], and he is knocked over by shine [that is, he can't be waveshined]. While his horizontal survivability is weaker than Marth's [two units of weight lighter than Marth is not a huge difference, but his higher falling speed gives him less use from DED as a recovery tool and so if he is intercepted, he is almost always dead], he still lives longer off the top.

Thus, I think he is still overall likely more durable than Zelda/Mewtwo/GnW [the other characters who are usually placed around/above him]. and he has the aforementioned mobility to stand a slightly better shot against the top tiers in neutral.

 

[Avoin]

So how wrong would i be if i held the opinion that the links are better than gannon? I don't feel like i am, but convince me otherwise.

 

[Thor]

So how wrong would i be if i held the opinion that the links are better than gannon? I don't feel like i am, but convince me otherwise.

Ganon does better vs Marth and Ice Climbers and at least a little better vs Falco and Falcon. He also doesn't have to deal with Fox's CC game as much as the Links do [CCing Link's fair? go ahead! CCing Ganondorf's fair? lol], although the MU is still hard [same as with Sheik]. Ganondorf also has a grab that, while short-ranged, is a nearly guaranteed kill confirm on the entire cast, and not nearly so laggy, while the Links can have problems killing.

Or else convince me otherwise.

 

[MurphyPrime]

I feel like Mewtwo would be over Roy as the only change. Roy just seems to have way to much trouble killing.Like he is sort of not awful against fast fallers but he cannot handle floaties at all imo.

For Link vs. Ganon, obviously Link wins because they always defeat Ganon .

Seriously though, I feel like the are pretty even. With Ganon it is very hard to approach (a camper should be able to beat Ganon if they remain patient and punish well) where as the links have a few more tools to approach. Ganon is slightly better to me because you can reliably punish people (Ganon grabs lead to death on lots of characters, where the links get very little). But it is very close between the two to me.