Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Nobie]

The only case in which those extra active frames might hurt Lucas is if his opponent was already avoiding the move before/while Lucas used his grab but if we are talking about a case in which Zelda or Lucas use their grab, and then the opponent waits for the move to finish so he can punish it, the timeframe to do so is exactly the same.

Why are you even making this a Zelda vs. Lucas argument? Is it because Lucas is often touted as having a bad grab which limits his potential?

Let me put it this way:

Bowser is considered to have a really good grab. It's frame 9 (Zelda is Frame 10), has massive reach, especially when pivoted. It has an EVEN LONGER COOLDOWN than Lucas and Zelda (29 frames). Are you going to start talking about how Bowser's grab isn't as good as Lucas's either, because it's only 3 frames faster and only has 2 active frames?

There are also situations where, say, an opponent is rolling or spot dodging and the total animation time becomes a factor. Having more active frames is good, of course, but if they're not in range of the tether, that means they have just as much time to hit you with a projectile or something. It's just fortunate for Lucas that he has the most forgiving tether in the game.

 

[buzzard]

Why are you even making this a Zelda vs. Lucas argument? Is it because Lucas is often touted as having a bad grab which limits his potential?

Because it was you who made a comparison with tether grabs when you said:

A lot of times, characters can't whiff punish with a grab, but Zelda can. If you stick a limb out a bit too much, Zelda can just grab it (possibly on reaction?) and not incur the penalty of a true tether

And it's simply untrue, she has as much penalty as a true tether (in this case Lucas'). In fact in the case of your example if Zelda or Lucas were to whiff then we are talking about both of them having the 27 frames of endlag because it would be us trying to punish the opponent (add to that that with Lucas' bigger grab range it's more likely for Zelda to whiff than it is for Lucas) and not us trying to read his moves (in which case Lucas extra active frames could potentially hamper him if his target was moving around).

I would never say that Bowser's grab isn't as good as Lucas because 2 extra frames of endlag don't really make a difference. With that I mean, you can easily punish Zelda's/Lucas' at 27 so Bowser would already be screwed even if he had 27, but unlike Zelda, Bowser has an actual kill throw and powerful guaranteed combos including the shellshock while also having a faster startup, better range and more active frames. The 2 extra frames of endlag change nothing in practice and even if they did, it balances Bowser's reward.

Lucas gets good combos and two strong/good kill throws.

Zelda gets to attempt a Hoo Ha which you can DI anyways and no real kill throws (unless you count killing at 150%-160% at the very tip of the stage and with about 90%-100% rage with a backthrow a kill throw or it killing at 175%-180% without rage at the very tip), she does have nice combos at low % to be fair but that's it. And while her uthrow, fthrow and bthrow do good damage by themselves, they put Zelda in a position in which she HAS to approach her opponent again and that's her biggest weakness.

 

[Nobie]

Because it was you who made a comparison with tether grabs when you said:



And it's simply untrue, she has as much penalty as a true tether (in this case Lucas'). In fact in the case of your example if Zelda or Lucas were to whiff then we are talking about both of them having the 27 frames of endlag because it would be us trying to punish the opponent (add to that that with Lucas' bigger grab range it's more likely for Zelda to whiff than it is for Lucas) and not us trying to read his moves (in which case Lucas extra active frames could potentially hamper him if his target was moving around).

I would never say that Bowser's grab isn't as good as Lucas because 2 extra frames of endlag don't really make a difference. With that I mean, you can easily punish Zelda's/Lucas' at 27 so Bowser would already be screwed even if he had 27, but unlike Zelda, Bowser has an actual kill throw and powerful guaranteed combos including the shellshock while also having a faster startup, better range and more active frames. The 2 extra frames of endlag change nothing in practice and even if they did, it balances Bowser's reward.

Lucas gets good combos and two strong/good kill throws.

Zelda gets to attempt a Hoo Ha which you can DI anyways and no real kill throws (unless you count killing at 150%-160% at the very tip of the stage and with about 90%-100% rage with a backthrow a kill throw or it killing at 175%-180% without rage at the very tip), she does have nice combos at low % to be fair but that's it. And while her uthrow, fthrow and bthrow do good damage by themselves, they put Zelda in a position in which she HAS to approach her opponent again and that's her biggest weakness.

And you're using the edge case of Lucas, who has the best recovery out of the tethers. Lucas is the exception that proves the rule. Like others and I have said, if you look at tethers in general it paints a very different picture.

Here's another example, ZSS's standing grab

Standing Grab Active: 16-19, 16-25 / FAF: 69

Bowser does not have more active frames on his grab than Zelda. Bowser grabs frames 9-10 standing, Zelda grabs frames 10-11. 2 frames vs. 2 frames. What are you even talking about?

I also never said anything about Lucas having worse grab reward than Zelda. Of COURSE Lucas has really good grab reward. He can combo, he can kill, and yes his throws kill earlier than Zelda's. They're really great.

Still, if people use Mario's back throw as an occasional stock cap, then Zelda's, which is slightly stronger in most cases, can also be used that way too, wouldn't you agree?

 

[buzzard]

And you're using the edge case of Lucas, who has the best recovery out of the tethers. Lucas is the exception that proves the rule. Like others and I have said, if you look at tethers in general it paints a very different picture.

Here's another example, ZSS's standing grab

Standing Grab Active: 16-19, 16-25 / FAF: 69

And that's perfect, because ZSS' grab reward is MASSIVE, so it stands to reason that it makes her more vulnerable if she missess, or else it would be overpowered. Same as Link, his range is insane, he has powerful low % combos and high % setups and a somewhat good kill throw with upthrow. The only one I think is bad is Samus, but I'm not very familiar with her so I wouldn't know.

But also remember, as I said previously, there is a certain point in which having more endlag changes very little if anything at all, if your past the point in which you WILL get punished for missing, there's really not much difference between 30 frames of endlag or 1000 frames. You are going to get punished hard anyways.

Bowser does not have more active frames on his grab than Zelda. Bowser grabs frames 9-10 standing, Zelda grabs frames 10-11. 2 frames vs. 2 frames. What are you even talking about?

My bad. When you said that it had 3 frames faster startup (compared to Lucas) I mixed it up with the active frames. He is still quite above Zelda's grab game nonetheless.

I also never said anything about Lucas having worse grab reward than Zelda. Of COURSE Lucas has really good grab reward. He can combo, he can kill, and yes his throws kill earlier than Zelda's. They're really great.

Still, if people use Mario's back throw as an occasional stock cap, then Zelda's, which is slightly stronger in most cases, can also be used that way too, wouldn't you agree?

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but Mario's has a better KBG by 6 points, while damage and angle are the same. Doesn't that mean that it kills earlier at kill %? Zelda has a better BKB by 10 but that shouldn't make her bthrow a better kill throw, right?

 

[LancerStaff]

In defense of the pits, they dont have some of the pros of other swordsman types. They lack huge arcing hitboxes unlike other swordies, they have significantly less range compared to other swordies, and they can't really wall you out compared to the likes of Ike, Marcina, Cloud.

they are more of a rushdown type of character. They rely heavily on raw footsies what with them having one of the best rolls in the game, on top of good dash speed, walk speed, and acceleration. Look at this set between Paseriman and Komorikiri. Paseriman is often overlooked as a Pit player but you can tell just by watching that he's a really good player. IMO i think he's just as good as Earth.

Their range/disjoint is mostly the same as other swordsmen though... Notable exceptions being Nair, which itself has a lot of qualities that other swordsmen would kill for, and Ftilt, which, well, does not.The lack of a proper swordie Ftilt is probably the most notable range difference, but between the range on Jab and Dash Attack being as good as it is it's not really a problem.

I also find the lack of arcing hitboxes overrated. I mean, it's waaaaay easier to land Pit's Uair then any other swordie Uair. It's a gigantic spinning pizza thing that's just hovering above him for 13 frames, and probably has more range upwards and outwards then any other swordsman's Uair. Dair is an actual arcing hitbox. Nair, Fair, and Bair I feel make up for it in different ways. (To wit, do you really want to go up against a gigantic arcing hitbox that does 12%, and has an actual really small sourspot at the base, kills, and autocancels in a short hop?)

Their walling ability is just as good as any other, and unlike other swordfighters they have multihit moves to wall with too. If anything the only reason they have so many atypical advantages over other swordsmen is that they can't kill off of "random" moves like the Marths, Ike, Robin, and Link can, and don't have any other especially unique strengths like the rest do.

 

[Vult Redux]

Bowser Jr. ... kill power, that allows him to be useable

Actually, Bowser Jr. struggles to seal KOs -- it's not as bad as some other characters, but it's definitely not a strength.. If you play close attention to Tweek's Jr play, you'll notice that he got a ton of his KOs from hard ledge reads. He was/is really good at it.

I mean, sure, his smashes and bair are kind of strong... In that sense he has "kill power", but he can't confirm into them and they aren't safe.

 

[Jams.]

buzzard and other Zelda players, what would you say her game plan is? @BunbUn129 briefly mentioned that some characters should be buffed to better execute their game plans, and I thought Zelda would fit in that category, but upon further consideration I realized I didn't really know what that meant for the character. The design team seems to be going for a walling character that can hard punish the opponent's errors, but I feel like that's not really a viable style when she can't really pressure other characters in the neutral game and her punish game is rather slow (jump squat, grab), precise, or both. I'm not sure her recent buffs really fleshed out her identity either. I feel like she could be a grappler that trades mobility for the ability to force an approach, but that's not really current Zelda.

Also the knockback formula is highly non-linear so it's kind of difficult to get a precise comparison of the two throws without testing.

 

[buzzard]

buzzard and other Zelda players, what would you say her game plan is? @BunbUn129 briefly mentioned that some characters should be buffed to better execute their game plans, and I thought Zelda would fit in that category, but upon further consideration I realized I didn't really know what that meant for the character. The design team seems to be going for a walling character that can hard punish the opponent's errors, but I feel like that's not really a viable style when she can't really pressure other characters in the neutral game and her punish game is rather slow (jump squat, grab), precise, or both. I'm not sure her recent buffs really fleshed out her identity either. I feel like she could be a grappler that trades mobility for the ability to force an approach, but that's not really current Zelda.

Also the knockback formula is highly non-linear so it's kind of difficult to get a precise comparison of the two throws without testing.

It's actually hard to say. She has one of the most diverse movesets in the game (well except for FAir and BAir almost being the same move, DAir is also somewhat similar) and she can theoretically fill many roles (having projectiles, reflector, plenty of combos, strong and weak moves) but she is also below average at doing most things (her projectiles range from completely useless to very situational for example).

I don't think there's a defined gameplan for her. I've seen Zelda players have great success while playing very defensively and also very offensively. I believe most Zelda mains agree that you have to play her mixing defense and offense quite a lot during a match. She does have a problem that many of her moves don't flow very well into others. What is (IMO) kinda underrated is her combo game at low %, she does not have combos that are as guaranteed as other characters and you will need a couple of reads and getting some hard to land hits (FAir/BAir), but if you get them it can be very surprising how fast she can take you from 0% to 50% and in some cases even around 70%. At that point you are already at kill % for some of her moves and setups.

The problem in the first place is getting in.

 

[Routa]

Ah so back to Brawler 1111.

Like @~ Gheb ~ said Brawler has a poor neutral. Even tho he has good mobility he lacks safe moves and disjoints in general. This is also a thing with XXXX moveset and even in 0:0 size. His best options in neutral are short hop Nair and Fair. His grounded options aren't that great due to lack of safety and range. In general Brawler wants to be out of neutral all the time. This is why Brawlers say that there is advantage and disadvantage state for Brawler.

Other thing that Brawler sucks in is recovering. This is his biggest flaw. He has decent aerial mobility, but his recovery moves are bad in general (talking about 1111 Brawler). He has 3 ways to recover: Soaring Axe Kick, Onslaught and Shot Put. SAK is your basic Kirby/Ike Up-B. Goes up ok distance and comes down with force. And yeah it can spike also. The thing is that you need to be close to recover with it. In general it is bad recovery move. Onslaught is decent due to it auto snapping the ledge. So people use it when they want to go straight for the ledge. Not bad as a recovery move. Then there is a Shot Put. Well... It has a small recover when used so... Yey? In general he has bad recovery, like Doc bad.

Now one thing he has going for himself in comparison to other low/bottom tier characters is that he can escape combos easily with NAir. There isn't really anything special to talk about his disadvantage state so let's continue.

Guest X,X,2/3,3 is known from its absurd punish game. Attacking shielding Brawler that uses PP is always a huge gamble do it its high kill power. Also D-Throw -> AD Read -> PP is just silly. You can kill people at rather low %. Same goes for Helikick. Sadly 1111 has nothing like that. Guest 1111's best kill options are D-Smash, U-Smash (forward hitbox), Dair and Onslaught. None of them is reliable kill option. I would say that even a Guest 1111 Swordfighter has easier time killing. And trust mii... his killing options are VERY unreliable.

Brawler can rack up damage easily... If he gets in. In general Guest 1111 Brawler has nothing (if we don't count his sex kick) going for himself in comparison to other bottom tier characters. He is bottom not because he lacks rep.... He is bottom 'cause he is designed around alternative specials.

The main reason why Swordfighter and Gunner are good/decent in 1111 form is 'cause their moveset outside specials works.Their alt specials add them more options and allows them to play differently within the character itself.

And I'm sorry if I made your eyes bleed. Language has never been my strong point and SB randomly crashed while I was going to post first time so I had to rewrite everything.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

For all the people that want to see Istudying at a big tournament, Get On My Level has Istudying as one of their donation goals. It's 70% done. It would be awesome to see him there and compete, and since so many people here think Greninja is amazing, having Istudying there would be ****ing awesome.

Link: https://smash.gg/tournament/get-on-...-ft-hbox-2/shop/goml-rewards-shop#shop-levels

A lot of people say Europe is weak and Greninja isn't good, so this could be another major where istudying shows what Greninja's got.

 

[Mario766]

For all the people that want to see Istudying at a big tournament, Get On My Level has Istudying as one of their donation goals. It's 70% done. It would be awesome to see him there and compete, and since so many people here think Greninja is amazing, having Istudying there would be ****ing awesome.

Link: https://smash.gg/tournament/get-on-...-ft-hbox-2/shop/goml-rewards-shop#shop-levels

A lot of people say Europe is weak and Greninja isn't good, so this could be another major where istudying shows what Greninja's got.

I'm pretty sure it's already met due to reward shop.

 

[Y2Kay]

Unless others jump him, Dennis WILL be at GOML.

 

[Nobie]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but Mario's has a better KBG by 6 points, while damage and angle are the same. Doesn't that mean that it kills earlier at kill %? Zelda has a better BKB by 10 but that shouldn't make her bthrow a better kill throw, right?

I did some tests, and in training mode Mario's back throw kills about 2% earlier without rage/freshness bonus. However, having a higher BKB means your attack benefits more from Rage, so in high-damage situations Zelda's can kill earlier.

 

[Radical Larry]

@Das Koopa You mentioned Link's recent tournament win. Where was that at?

Spoiler: Reason for Link Re-Evaluation

Secondly, we can't ignore it anymore; ever since Eclipse and Umebura NicoNico, Link's been recently getting results that usually hit Top 16 or 8 in tournaments that he places in; while this is not all of the tournaments he is in, doesn't the sudden spike in his good results recently make it suspect for him being a Middle Tier and not a borderline?

It seems that this thread needs to re-evaluate Link since it seems that the current theory about his MUs and the current results do not mix whatsoever. I've been saying Link is a solid middle tier character, and the numerous buffs to him making his tournament results even better just confirm it. Plus, let's not forget that Link is going against a cast of top tiers and high, and some players who play top tiers lose to Link.

Link's competitive viability is not that hard to really put into perspective; he has high potential to beat some top tier characters (his results show that), whether or not if the scene is weak or strong. A character like Link can beat and get beaten by high tiers and top tiers, but isn't it odd that wherever Link places, it's almost always with those two groups of characters?

And then you have his players; surely they could pick a character who's better than Link, right? Unless Link is a middle tier, of course. I firmly believe that Link is a solid middle tier character; his results definitely do show it so far, and results speak louder than the theory and opinions of us, correct?

Now I wouldn't be making this claim if Link had started getting 1 result per 7 months, but he's starting to get 2 top 8 to top 32 placements in various places in at least one month or two.

And I'll be talking about why Falco should be considered a middle tier later on; and it has incredible reasoning too.

 

[bc1910]

Not after what happened near the beginning of the games life. I'm not going to build a case for him to be a high tier character whatsoever, but all I'm saying is that Link is a decent character comparable to other low or the lower portion of middle tier characters. The results are just really starting to pick up for him, and that can be evidence for him to stay at middle tier.

This doesn't answer my question. And now seems like a good time to bring it back up, in accordance with the above post.

Why are you so insistent on Link being a low-mid tier and not a low tier, when he's not viable either way?

Honestly, why does it make any difference?

 

[sedrf]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4i6y17/currently_at_200_entrants_registration_for_2ggt/
There are some guys confirmed(
Over 10 players from Zero's list will be in attendance including Trela (Ryu), Ryo (Ike), Fow (Ness), Ven (Zelda), Draquaza (Charizard), Scizor (Link), Jonny Westside (Samus), TLTC (Palutena), and more!

 

[BananaBake]

I swear we have the "nerfing top tiers vs buffing bottom tiers" discussion at least 2 times a month.

I see it like this: say you have 428 wedding cakes, all of different shapes, flavors, and most importantly heights, and you'd prefer them to be closer to the same height. Is it easier to make the shorter cakes taller, or the taller cakes shorter? More importantly, what will be the most enjoyable for the most people?

Answer: What event are you even having that requires 428 wedding cakes?

The answer is shorten the tall cakes. Easier to cut something already made than make more and stack

 

[Horseketchup]

The only case in which those extra active frames might hurt Lucas is if his opponent was already avoiding the move before/while Lucas used his grab but if we are talking about a case in which Zelda or Lucas use their grab, and then the opponent waits for the move to finish so he can punish it, the timeframe to do so is exactly the same.

The extra 8 frames is 8 frames more that the opponent has to react to a missed grab read, and from midrange can give them just enough time to reactively move in and punish after the active frames end, or fire a projectile at you from afar. Also if the opponent rolls behind, does an aerial cross up, or jumps to avoid the grab, then they don't have to worry about waiting for the active frames to finish before they go for their punish. It's not like the opponent can't do anything until the grab is inactive, they can use those extra frames to gain a much more advantageous position.

Having 8 less total frames is a big deal in terms of the safety of a grab, endlag isn't the only thing that matters. Tether grabs are partially distinguished by having both long active frames and long total frames too, it's a trade off but it makes tethers less safe on whiff. So she doesn't incur the full penalty of a tether grab, because she doesn't have the downside of that " better active frames / worse total frames" tradeoff.

 

[PMMikey]

Personally I rather see more buffs added to Roy over Marth. Roy discussion?

 

[BTVolta]

Why are you so insistent on Link being a low-mid tier and not a low tier, when he's not viable either way?

Honestly, why does it make any difference?

I can't really speak for Larry, but Brawl taught me that people care about their character being mid tier and not low tier.

 

[Megamang]

So much steak sauce on what looked like a good cut. I'll never understand Sonic players.

 

[ARGHETH]

This doesn't answer my question. And now seems like a good time to bring it back up, in accordance with the above post.

Why are you so insistent on Link being a low-mid tier and not a low tier, when he's not viable either way?

Honestly, why does it make any difference?

People don't like hearing that their character's low tier, because low tier = bad in most people's minds. Low mid tier is still mid tier (barely), meaning your character isn't that bad...kind of.
That, and Link's been bad for the previous three games, so maybe he's decent in this one!

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Personally I rather see more buffs added to Roy over Marth. Roy discussion?

I suspect that Roy's purpose, in theory, is to be the high damage swordsman, to compensate for needing to be up close for his sweetspots. In practice, he faces stiff competition from Ike in the raw damage-per-hit department, and Ike doesn't have to worry about a sweetspot on the hilt. This doesn't even take frame data into account. Throw in a bad disadvantage state and anything he can do, odds are someone else can do better. (Cue impromptu Annie Get Your Gun performance.)

At least his sweetspots seem much less finicky than Marth's tippers.

Alternatively to everything else I said above here, maybe he's just supposed to be a bizarro Marth for people who can't be bothered to space properly for tippers and want to rush in all the time.

 

[BTVolta]

Personally I rather see more buffs added to Roy over Marth. Roy discussion?

When asking for discussion it helps to start us up with some point, but I am interested in his top/high tier MU spread. Manny vs Cayman in perticular made me think he might have an even or better MU with bayo(match in question https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IXMGNPpNtEY). Looking at his tools he seems to have everything you want against bayo except a good dash to shield(correct me on that if wrong)(heavy punishes for landing, good mobility to deal with dive kicks, decent grab reward to deal with witch time).

This makes me curious on other MUs that Roy can possible be seen as a counter pick option.

 

[juddy96]

@Das Koopa You mentioned Link's recent tournament win. Where was that at?

Spoiler: Reason for Link Re-Evaluation

Secondly, we can't ignore it anymore; ever since Eclipse and Umebura NicoNico, Link's been recently getting results that usually hit Top 16 or 8 in tournaments that he places in; while this is not all of the tournaments he is in, doesn't the sudden spike in his good results recently make it suspect for him being a Middle Tier and not a borderline?

It seems that this thread needs to re-evaluate Link since it seems that the current theory about his MUs and the current results do not mix whatsoever. I've been saying Link is a solid middle tier character, and the numerous buffs to him making his tournament results even better just confirm it. Plus, let's not forget that Link is going against a cast of top tiers and high, and some players who play top tiers lose to Link.

Link's competitive viability is not that hard to really put into perspective; he has high potential to beat some top tier characters (his results show that), whether or not if the scene is weak or strong. A character like Link can beat and get beaten by high tiers and top tiers, but isn't it odd that wherever Link places, it's almost always with those two groups of characters?

And then you have his players; surely they could pick a character who's better than Link, right? Unless Link is a middle tier, of course. I firmly believe that Link is a solid middle tier character; his results definitely do show it so far, and results speak louder than the theory and opinions of us, correct?

Now I wouldn't be making this claim if Link had started getting 1 result per 7 months, but he's starting to get 2 top 8 to top 32 placements in various places in at least one month or two.

And I'll be talking about why Falco should be considered a middle tier later on; and it has incredible reasoning too.

It was at Icarus II where BlueLink won

 

[Radical Larry]

This doesn't answer my question. And now seems like a good time to bring it back up, in accordance with the above post.

Why are you so insistent on Link being a low-mid tier and not a low tier, when he's not viable either way?

Honestly, why does it make any difference?

He is viable, and tournament results just show it tremendously; low tier or middle tier, Link is a viable character to use in tournaments. I don't see why you're insistent to say he can't be viable when there is evidence on the most notable contrary.

And honestly, the difference between Low Tier and Middle Tier is that even if characters from both ends are viable, middle tier is more viable than Low Tier. Link belongs in middle tier since he's getting significantly more results than a character like Roy could ever think of getting.

It was at Icarus II where BlueLink won

Thanks, and I found the results; it's pretty wonderful to see a Link player actually WIN a tournament when Link's often considered Low Tier. This is a tournament where the player went against players who know how to use their Top Tiers and High Tiers, and the player may have used Zard and Tink, but Link was also used prominently apparently.

I mean, you see characters who are considered Higher Than Link beaten by Link:

So these are players who could be at the same level as Link's BlueLink player, right? Do you see how many top tiers and high tiers there are? If these players are of equivalent skill, and Link is still able to place top, solo main or not, then there is some potential of Link after all.

 

[Megamang]

Link doesn't beat Diddy, Fox, or Mario, that is preposterous,



Anyways, Roy is a cool counterpick in MUs where your opponent is lacking OOS options. Nair is featured in these MUs, its safe and can be used in many ways. The sour nair hit sets up brutally for tilts, and sweet nair comobos into itself for quiite a while and is ridiculously safe.

 

[ZSaberLink]

@Das Koopa You mentioned Link's recent tournament win. Where was that at?

Spoiler: Reason for Link Re-Evaluation

Secondly, we can't ignore it anymore; ever since Eclipse and Umebura NicoNico, Link's been recently getting results that usually hit Top 16 or 8 in tournaments that he places in; while this is not all of the tournaments he is in, doesn't the sudden spike in his good results recently make it suspect for him being a Middle Tier and not a borderline?

It seems that this thread needs to re-evaluate Link since it seems that the current theory about his MUs and the current results do not mix whatsoever. I've been saying Link is a solid middle tier character, and the numerous buffs to him making his tournament results even better just confirm it. Plus, let's not forget that Link is going against a cast of top tiers and high, and some players who play top tiers lose to Link.

Link's competitive viability is not that hard to really put into perspective; he has high potential to beat some top tier characters (his results show that), whether or not if the scene is weak or strong. A character like Link can beat and get beaten by high tiers and top tiers, but isn't it odd that wherever Link places, it's almost always with those two groups of characters?

And then you have his players; surely they could pick a character who's better than Link, right? Unless Link is a middle tier, of course. I firmly believe that Link is a solid middle tier character; his results definitely do show it so far, and results speak louder than the theory and opinions of us, correct?

Now I wouldn't be making this claim if Link had started getting 1 result per 7 months, but he's starting to get 2 top 8 to top 32 placements in various places in at least one month or two.

And I'll be talking about why Falco should be considered a middle tier later on; and it has incredible reasoning too.

What are these Japanese Link results you're mentioning btw? Just curious.

 

[L9999]

He is viable, and tournament results just show it tremendously; low tier or middle tier, Link is a viable character to use in tournaments. I don't see why you're insistent to say he can't be viable when there is evidence on the most notable contrary.

And honestly, the difference between Low Tier and Middle Tier is that even if characters from both ends are viable, middle tier is more viable than Low Tier. Link belongs in middle tier since he's getting significantly more results than a character like Roy could ever think of getting.



Thanks, and I found the results; it's pretty wonderful to see a Link player actually WIN a tournament when Link's often considered Low Tier. This is a tournament where the player went against players who know how to use their Top Tiers and High Tiers, and the player may have used Zard and Tink, but Link was also used prominently apparently.

I mean, you see characters who are considered Higher Than Link beaten by Link:

So these are players who could be at the same level as Link's BlueLink player, right? Do you see how many top tiers and high tiers there are? If these players are of equivalent skill, and Link is still able to place top, solo main or not, then there is some potential of Link after all.

Since when Shulk is considered better than Link? Also, I think everyone here would like your reasoning behind your opinions.

 

[BananaBake]

He is viable, and tournament results just show it tremendously; low tier or middle tier, Link is a viable character to use in tournaments. I don't see why you're insistent to say he can't be viable when there is evidence on the most notable contrary.

And honestly, the difference between Low Tier and Middle Tier is that even if characters from both ends are viable, middle tier is more viable than Low Tier. Link belongs in middle tier since he's getting significantly more results than a character like Roy could ever think of getting.



Thanks, and I found the results; it's pretty wonderful to see a Link player actually WIN a tournament when Link's often considered Low Tier. This is a tournament where the player went against players who know how to use their Top Tiers and High Tiers, and the player may have used Zard and Tink, but Link was also used prominently apparently.

I mean, you see characters who are considered Higher Than Link beaten by Link:

So these are players who could be at the same level as Link's BlueLink player, right? Do you see how many top tiers and high tiers there are? If these players are of equivalent skill, and Link is still able to place top, solo main or not, then there is some potential of Link after all.

Could you please explain why Link beats some of these characters? Some of these are not clear, like Bayo, Mario, Corrin, Villy etc.

 

[Rizen]

My thoughts on where Link currently stands:

Link's kind of a weird case. He's probably a little lower down in the tier list than before simply because better characters came along. DLC characters Bayo, Cloud and Corrin are above him. He also got passed by buffed characters like Marth and Mewtwo. IDK about Samus, she got good buffs but I'm waiting to see what she can do in tournaments before saying she passed Link. With that said he is more viable in tournaments than before because he has received buffs and top tier received nerfs. So he's lower on the list but more viable if that makes sense.

Link currently has a 'Ganon' thing going for him. He only needs to outplay the opponent a little to get big rewards. In the patches he got power buffs rather than the balances he should have gotten (frame 5 jab/Nair/jumpsquat, air speed increase to .91, slight end lag reductions on Dtilt/Utilt, arrows and boomerang imo). While it seems like Link missed out, and he kind of did, the power buffs are nothing to sneeze at. Link has great damage and shield pressure, an Fair that kills like Toon Link's, a grab as long as Shulk's Fsmash that Dthrow combos into many things depending on the opponent, sword reach and projectiles to set things up. He lives a long time too. He's slow and does need reads but the payoff is getting pretty good.

With all that said, imo Link stands in the lower mid tier part of the tier list around where Robin is, maybe a bit lower if Robin has good top tier MUs (IDK). Link isn't solo viable for nationals but might be for regionals if a player is good enough.

edit

Could you please explain why Link beats some of these characters? Some of these are not clear, like Bayo, Mario, Corrin, Villy etc.

Except maybe Villager he loses those MUs imo.

 

[Ninety]

I believe Larry's point was that Link has beaten those characters, which are considered above him in theory, in actual tournament matches. Not that he beats them in theory.

Because it takes more myopia than I've got to think Link beats Cloud, Diddy and Bayo.

(and I have very high myopia you guys)

 

[Radical Larry]

Could you please explain why Link beats some of these characters? Some of these are not clear, like Bayo, Mario, Corrin, Villy etc.

I believe Larry's point was that Link has beaten those characters, which are considered above him in theory, in actual tournament matches. Not that he beats them in theory.

Because it takes more myopia than I've got to think Link beats Cloud, Diddy and Bayo.

(and I have very high myopia you guys)

Again, a common mistake of me not wording it correctly. The characters I definitely listed, a lot of them beat Link consistently; however, I was referring to the tournament itself on which characters he beat. I'm sorry about that.

Also, someone asked why Shulk is considered better than Link.

Since when Shulk is considered better than Link? Also, I think everyone here would like your reasoning behind your opinions.

Oh yes, here. I was referring to the current tier list where Shulk's above Link, that's why I listed Shulk as a part of the characters who are higher than Link that got beat by Link at the Tournament.

Link has the potential to make it into a very good position, possibly being alongside Robin or just a bit lower at around the lower end or lower center end of middle tier. All that I know is that Link should be higher than Bowser and has the potential to pass Mega Man and Pac-Man on the tier list; the latter's likely never going to happen, of course.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

I believe Larry's point was that Link has beaten those characters, which are considered above him in theory, in actual tournament matches. Not that he beats them in theory.

Because it takes more myopia than I've got to think Link beats Cloud, Diddy and Bayo.

(and I have very high myopia you guys)

Projectile based characters and Swordies generally do well against Bayo, Link has both of these things. He can camp her when he wants to, wins CQC (one of his biggest issues), and because he has a disjoint he can edgeguard her quite well, even better if he can properly utilize projectiles. Also having a decent killthrow is going to help a even more

 

[Megamang]

Mega has very relevant (to his viability) MUs to Sonic, Diddy, and Cloud. Unless Link can claim some top/high tier MUs, I believe megaman will always be higher on a tier list. These are very important MUs in the current meta, and I can't see that changing.

 

[Rizen]

Mega has very relevant (to his viability) MUs to Sonic, Diddy, and Cloud. Unless Link can claim some top/high tier MUs, I believe megaman will always be higher on a tier list. These are very important MUs in the current meta, and I can't see that changing.

I agree Mega Man is better than Link. To answer your question, I've heard Link has a good MU vs Villager. I personally have trouble vs Villager but probably wasn't playing the MU right. Take it with a grain of salt :/ . Link beats Luigi according to Cat; this I agree with.

 

[Megamang]

Megaman does really well vs most zoner, and this applies a lot to villager. Pellets beat out lots of his stuff, he is less mobile and lighter. Villager does edgeguard Mega pretty hard, if things go right for him.

 

[KamikazePotato]

EDIT: I'm also Determination7 on Reddit, so to those coming from there, don't worry! No one stole my work.

Someone made a heatmap of Corrin's ground spacing a while back - I decided to make one for Ike too. It's not going to be 100% perfectly accurate, but I used the official hitboxes and took a lot of effort to make sure it was as close to accurate as possible, so if nothing else it's a good barometter for things.

This is the space that Ike can hit you while on the ground, without manually moving whatsoever (so dash attack is excluded):

That's...a bit of a mess, isn't it? Let's split up those hitboxes:

Might make an aerial one too, later, if people are interested.

 

[juddy96]

Trela, VoiD, Pink Fresh, ImHip, FOW, Z, Tyrant, K9sbruce, MrConCon, Zenyou, Xzax, Aphro, Charliedaking, Elegant, SM, Tearbear, Teb, TLTC, SS, Zan, Rich Brown, Legit, Jonny Westside, Scizor, JK, Snoop, Poyo, Aarvark, Stroderp, Saiki, Draquaza, SlayerZ, Ryo, Vash, Markus, S2H, NCJacobT, Stark among the names competing at 2GGT: Fresh Saga. SoCal, NorCal, Arizona, and Vegas have a big presence, along with a few guys from the east coast. 307 players registered with pre-reg closed. At the door reg is still available.

 

[Nekoo]

It's going to be a wonderful tournament. I'm ready for a lot of upset and people suddenly changing their mind about some MU because x player beat x character.

So. mostly the best part of this thread.

Love you guys.