Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[blackghost]

oh and also, i expect bayonetta to get out of low tier this year, when people realize that she still has moves outside of her specials

Bayonetta is actually in trouble. She doesn't have good options for neutral, approaching, or zoning. Now she doesn't punish well. No true combo that does more than 15 to 20 percent. Her design is now very flawed. She already had bad matchups with high tiers: shiek, rosa, cloud, and ryu. She now cannot zone, cannot approach, and can't combo because sdi and di end all her combos. And unlike some other top tiers no air speed or movement to catch up.
She'll end up in the 15 to 20s. But she's not a major tournament threat now.

 

[C0rvus]

She has some very good normals in dtilt, bair, up air, and fair1. She has a number of true combos using just her normals, and her specials are not totally useless. She still has very strong gimping and good damage output. Given some time to redevelop I think she should be fine. Yeah she loses a number of matchups and has a somewhat lacking neutral, but her punish game is still somewhat there. I was very pessimistic about her right when the patch hit, but I choose to believe Nairo and Pink Fresh when they say she's fine.

 

[BlazGreen]

Woah, I haven't been here in a bit, I just wanted to ask what characters in low tier could you see making the jump to mid tier this year? Just a question I'm wondering about

Going off the current 1.1.3 tier list



: Super obvious with his buffs and Abadango's Pound VI win. Likely a high tier unless his results drop off drastically in the summer.

: Has multiple people getting solid results with her over the past few months mostly in the US and Canada.

: In the same boat as Palutena except his results are coming from Japan.

/: Marth's results have improved considerably and he has some very good players using him. Lucina doesn't quite get the same amount of use but is similar enough to Marth to not be too far from him.

: Some good results from Taiheita and a stronger presence in the US should help move Lucas up a bit. I've seen more people call him a nice alternative to Ness rather than an inferior character.

have had some good results lately and certainly have the potential to move up but I feel like it isn't enough for now. Has improved a lot and should at least be low tier but has so few people repping her at high level that it makes it hard to make a case for her going any higher.

 

[Amadeus9]

I think we can already say that Marth has the results of a top 25-ish character, and maybe we should start treating him like one.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Oh lol, ignore 4br tier list, it's 2 patches behind. I was asking for your opinions guys
BlazGreen

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Bayo still has 30% combos, just not started entirely out of specials and she does have a good neutral with Bair, Nair, Dtilt (range is good enough for CQC), Uair, Bullets, bullets, and more bullets. She's still good thank god

 

[blackghost]

She has some very good normals in dtilt, bair, up air, and fair1. She has a number of true combos using just her normals, and her specials are not totally useless. She still has very strong gimping and good damage output. Given some time to redevelop I think she should be fine. Yeah she loses a number of matchups and has a somewhat lacking neutral, but her punish game is still somewhat there. I was very pessimistic about her right when the patch hit, but I choose to believe Nairo and Pink Fresh when they say she's fine.

Dtilt was just nerfed. It's range is worse and startup is already pretty bad. Fair 1 is good but you don't get anything but the string possibly a abk but di dependent. Bair is a kill move but it isn't even as strong at Mario or zss. Up air comes out behind her so still isn't as reliable as it appears.
In this meta being a punish character isn't good against characters that don't lose neutral. Damage output and gimping don't give her anymatchups she already didn't decisively have. But she does loses new matchups for sure after this patch in particular grab happy heavies dk and bowser. She can't reliable matchup against high or some low tiers no idrama how that indicates her to be "fine"

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Dtilt was just nerfed. It's range is worse and startup is already pretty bad. Fair 1 is good but you don't get anything but the string possibly a abk but di dependent. Bair is a kill move but it isn't even as strong at Mario or zss. Up air comes out behind her so still isn't as reliable as it appears.
In this meta being a punish character isn't good against characters that don't lose neutral. Damage output and gimping don't give her anymatchups she already didn't decisively have. But she does loses new matchups for sure after this patch in particular grab happy heavies dk and bowser. She can't reliable matchup against high or some low tiers no idrama how that indicates her to be "fine"

Dtilt is still fine for CQC. Damage is damage and if I played Bayonetta I'd probably try to get what I can out of every hit I can. If that means I can only get one attack in after fair, I'm still gonna try it. If they miss with a special they can just reset to neutral most of the time. Bair is pretty strong it's just the start up that can be a little awkward, and if you're that concerned about uair hitting from behind just RAR uair.
Every character will lose neutral at least once, unless you're getting completely bodied, in which case either your opponent is just better than you are, or you screwed up hard. Some characters are better at disadvantage than others, but everyone will lose neutral, otherwise we wouldn't have all these results with a wide variety of characters making top 16 or top 8.

 

[C0rvus]

I could be wrong, but fair1 can combo into up air, which is a big combo starter/extender in and of itself. It's a very tight link though. And of course you can do fair1 > 2 > 3 for guaranteed easy damage and good carry offstage, which is where Bayo wants opponents.

Dtilt is still a good normal, they gave it 1 frame of endlag so that much is hardly different. It still sets up for up air or back air, even at kiling percents iirc.

Not saying she is godlike or wasn't nerfed very hard, because she's not and she did. But I still see a good character here. Time will tell, though. If I recall Saj won a 1.1.6 event with Bayo so her players who did well I would still expect to do well.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I think we can already say that Marth has the results of a top 25-ish character, and maybe we should start treating him like one.

I've been treating Marth as a high tier since the buffs. He has an very strong neutral, excels at edgeguarding, and an underdeveloped combo game that after messing around with I think its pretty solid. His results have also been amazing since the patch, its almost guaranteed he'll end up as a high tier

I'm also fairly certain both Roy and Link will move up but not by much

Roy got some nice buffs but he's still a bit underdeveloped and doesn't have much rep, I'm thinking about taking him to a few locals to test some things in actual matches. Problem is I just moved so I have no idea what the smash scene is like in CO

Link has had solid results since the beginning and hes a pretty damn solid character. I hope to see more notable Link players enter bigger tournaments

 

[blackghost]

I could be wrong, but fair1 can combo into up air, which is a big combo starter/extender in and of itself. It's a very tight link though. And of course you can do fair1 > 2 > 3 for guaranteed easy damage and good carry offstage, which is where Bayo wants opponents.

Dtilt is still a good normal, they gave it 1 frame of endlag so that much is hardly different. It still sets up for up air or back air, even at kiling percents iirc.

Not saying she is godlike or wasn't nerfed very hard, because she's not and she did. But I still see a good character here. Time will tell, though. If I recall Saj won a 1.1.6 event with Bayo so her players who did well I would still expect to do well.

Dtilt also recorded a range nerf. Fair doesn't combo to up air. Up air starts behind her nit enough stumble for an up air followup. What event did he was? I'd want to see the vod if possible.

 

[Nabbitnator]

i know lucina doesn't get some of the perks marth does but how well is she doing in the current meta?

 

[Trunks159]

I've been treating Marth as a high tier since the buffs. He has an very strong neutral, excels at edgeguarding, and an underdeveloped combo game that after messing around with I think its pretty solid. His results have also been amazing since the patch, its almost guaranteed he'll end up as a high tier

I'm also fairly certain both Roy and Link will move up but not by much

Roy got some nice buffs but he's still a bit underdeveloped and doesn't have much rep, I'm thinking about taking him to a few locals to test some things in actual matches. Problem is I just moved so I have no idea what the smash scene is like in CO

Link has had solid results since the beginning and hes a pretty damn solid character. I hope to see more notable Link players enter bigger tournaments

Marth is good and all but I think your overselling him a bit. He hardly has any true combos, but I do think he just makes it into high tier, though maybe High Mid or something.

 

[Jams.]

ROB is a lot scarier when the opponent doesn't know the MU, which is somewhat relevant as not all regions have a strong ROB player. Poor DI on beep boop can kill 30-40% earlier than good DI on beep boop, and optimal DI on uair takes some practice because of how weird the move is. The gyro ledge set-ups can also convert reliably into early kills or a lot of damage if your opponent isn't aware of the proper counterplay.

His general game plan is also fairly effective if you don't know an opponent's habits, so he doesn't run the risk of losing because of a few unfortunate reads against worse players. Zoning is low risk and ROB's zoning rewards him fairly well compared to most other zoners. ROB can also grab to win, which is very useful in ensuring he doesn't lose to players with worse fundamentals.

8BitMan continues to place fairly well with this character now that he's off his hiatus and his results overall are still fairly consistent, so I'm hesitant to label him as mediocre while his results are still solid. His MU spread is pretty bad in theory though.

 

[Mario766]

How much different is ROB when you're playing with MU knowledge and without, though.

For example, San played Holy at EGLX, and it didn't look pretty. I don't have the exact final set score, but Holy took the set pretty convincingly.

Fast forward to GOML.

and he gets 3-0'd and styled on by San in a MU that I've heard ROB players say is on ROB's side.

That's a pretty different story with just one set played between them.

 

[Illuminose]

ROB has a lot of good regional level results ie 8BitMan in FL, Holy in Canada, and Ginko/OCEAN in Japan. There's also a variety of more local but still solid threats with good results like WiiGi, Raffi-X, Gyo, SaSSy, Mister Eric,etc plus a couple European ROBs (Robo~Luigi/ccst). It really just has not transferred to the national level, though, a lack of travel from the top ROB mains not helping at all (none of the regional players I mentioned have been to any large out-of-region tournament). ZSS seems unwinnable, most other matchups are generally doable (Ginko beat the best active Rosa in Japan at KSB) espec with ROB cheese, so I don't really think that's holding him back.

 

[ARISTOS]

It's also possible that at a regional level, the number of bad MUs ROB is exposed to is much less notable.

At the national level, you're going to run into more top level/high level Sheik/ZSS that give ROB more trouble than at the regional level. Add in the more highly developed Gyro counterplay and the character might not be as strong as in the regional level

 

[PK Gaming]

i know lucina doesn't get some of the perks marth does but how well is she doing in the current meta?

No one is using her at high level play so I can't say

She should be doing pretty decently though, in theory of course

 

[juddy96]

ROB has a lot of good regional level results ie 8BitMan in FL, Holy in Canada, and Ginko/OCEAN in Japan. There's also a variety of more local but still solid threats with good results like WiiGi, Raffi-X, Gyo, SaSSy, Mister Eric,etc plus a couple European ROBs (Robo~Luigi/ccst). It really just has not transferred to the national level, though, a lack of travel from the top ROB mains not helping at all (none of the regional players I mentioned have been to any large out-of-region tournament). ZSS seems unwinnable, most other matchups are generally doable (Ginko beat the best active Rosa in Japan at KSB) espec with ROB cheese, so I don't really think that's holding him back.

OCEAN hasn't been to anything in a blue moon, and the last time he actually did go to something he went 0-2 in bracket. Ginko's ROB is like his 3rd most used character. And you failed to mention Long0uw who is the actual best ROB in Europe

 

[Jams.]

How much different is ROB when you're playing with MU knowledge and without, though.

For example, San played Holy at EGLX, and it didn't look pretty. I don't have the exact final set score, but Holy took the set pretty convincingly.

Fast forward to GOML.

and he gets 3-0'd and styled on by San in a MU that I've heard ROB players say is on ROB's side.

That's a pretty different story with just one set played between them.

I watched their EGLX set and it was honestly pretty close. Games 1 and 2 were last hit (san threw away a big lead game 1 by picking a poor option versus gyro on the ledge and getting spiked out of Aether) and took game 3 convincingly. san. does have a good ROB called OmegaTyrant in his region, so it's not like he had no ROB experience prior to EGLX. He played the MU well and didn't get hit by fraudulent set-ups of early beep boop kills.

While I don't remember their GOML set completely, I think the difference between these two sets is just due to a combination of san playing better and Holy playing worse, rather than any strides san made in learning the MU in the past two weeks.

The ledge set-up is actually huge, because if you don't know how to respond to it (drop down 95% of the time), it's basically a guaranteed kill every time ROB forces you to the ledge around 80-90%. The set-up carries almost no risk against players that don't know the counterplay, and ROB doesn't have to endanger himself by trying to get grabs against characters with superior CQC.

There's no way I would've beaten Yoh in the crew battle at GOML if he didn't die to gyro -> usmash twice. I was also playing friendlies with Poke's Luigi who was basically wrecking me because I couldn't find kills and if I whiffed a grab I took like 40-60%. If he fell for the ledge set-up every time (he actually learned how to deal with it the night before =V), I'm confident I would've won a decent number of those game.

 

[Floor]

Going off the current 1.1.3 tier list



: Super obvious with his buffs and Abadango's Pound VI win. Likely a high tier unless his results drop off drastically in the summer.

: Has multiple people getting solid results with her over the past few months mostly in the US and Canada.

: In the same boat as Palutena except his results are coming from Japan.

/: Marth's results have improved considerably and he has some very good players using him. Lucina doesn't quite get the same amount of use but is similar enough to Marth to not be too far from him.

: Some good results from Taiheita and a stronger presence in the US should help move Lucas up a bit. I've seen more people call him a nice alternative to Ness rather than an inferior character.

have had some good results lately and certainly have the potential to move up but I feel like it isn't enough for now. Has improved a lot and should at least be low tier but has so few people repping her at high level that it makes it hard to make a case for her going any higher.

Id put / should be side by side in my opinion, but i think they have the potential to rise to maybe higher mid tier, as ZeRo believes. They received buffs and have well rounded play styles, allowing for closer match ups against almost all characters.

Once I start attending more tournaments, Ill see to it they both get to higher mid tier *smirk* *gets knocked out immediately*

 

[san.]

I watched their EGLX set and it was honestly pretty close. Games 1 and 2 were last hit (san threw away a big lead game 1 by picking a poor option versus gyro on the ledge and getting spiked out of Aether) and took game 3 convincingly. san. does have a good ROB called OmegaTyrant in his region, so it's not like he had no ROB experience prior to EGLX. He played the MU well and didn't get hit by fraudulent set-ups of early beep boop kills.

While I don't remember their GOML set completely, I think the difference between these two sets is just due to a combination of san playing better and Holy playing worse, rather than any strides san made in learning the MU in the past two weeks.

The ledge set-up is actually huge, because if you don't know how to respond to it (drop down 95% of the time), it's basically a guaranteed kill every time ROB forces you to the ledge around 80-90%. The set-up carries almost no risk against players that don't know the counterplay, and ROB doesn't have to endanger himself by trying to get grabs against characters with superior CQC.

There's no way I would've beaten Yoh in the crew battle at GOML if he didn't die to gyro -> usmash twice. I was also playing friendlies with Poke's Luigi who was basically wrecking me because I couldn't find kills and if I whiffed a grab I took like 40-60%. If he fell for the ledge set-up every time (he actually learned how to deal with it the night before =V), I'm confident I would've won a decent number of those game.

If you were at GOML, we could've played =3

Yes, @Omega Tyrant is in my region, but I only get to see him at our regional, Cusetown Beatdown, or if Albany holds anything large like New Fish. I did get some practice with him at New Fish, which helped quite a bit.

After I lost to Holy, I went to training mode to clear up my misconceptions on how fast gyro spawns, how much lag his projectiles had, and figure out how much range ROB's ground moves had on the ground (I was treating him like Brawl ROB whenever I got close). I'm still not too positive on avoiding the gyro setups, but I just planned to do something different than before. The reason Holy's spikes worked so well on me at EGLX is because it worked for me in my first set against him at Canada Cup, but it's risky and he showed that at our second set.

I still think ROB is quite good with the mix of projectile game, grab game, and passable CQC compared to other zoners. His results are pretty high compared to how most view him.

 

[PJB]

This is a bit off topic but I want to throw it out there just to get some feedback-

People talk constantly in this thread about overturned moves, and of course there are many that fit this category. But from what I can tell, across the entire smash franchise (possibly outside 64, im not familiar with the meta) the only overtuned moves that seem to make the characters themselves overturned are special moves.

Consider melee fox, brawl mk, and pre patch smash 4 bayonetta compared to melee sheik, brawl snake and smash 4 fox. In the first cases, each character relies heavily on "over-tuned" SPECIALS (shine, laser, tornado, shuttle loop, witch twist/time, abk) to be arguably the best character in their respective games. Meanwhile the second cases, each character relies heavily on "over-tuned" NORMALS (sheik fair/ftilt/nair/bair, snake ftilt/utilt, fox uAir/utilt/usmash) to be top tier, but not the very top or in any way game breaking. I realize this heavily simplifies what each of these characters can do, but I think you all get my general point.

Is this analysis incorrect? I bring this up only given all the talk of who the #1 overall character is, because by this logic I would argue that fox, Mario and Rosalina (unless you count gravitational pull as an over-tuned special, which I don't) cannot be the best character while Diddy, sheik and cloud (who notably has both exceptional normals and limit break specials) are all candidates

 

[Chalice]

Can we be done with who is the best in the game right now? The game is so well balanced and has so many viable characters that we honestly just need to let it grow on its own. Remember, our game is still young while Melee had years to develop it's almost set in stone tier list. Even now, though, the tier list is developing with people like Armada thinking Jigglypuff is #2 and that Falco is dropping.

These characters are so good and go back and forth with each other that we should stop trying to make the final decision. Honestly, they are basically in their own tier and any one of them are the best choice in winning a major.



They are NOT in order. These are the characters that have the best shot at winning majors and pretty even with each other IMO

Now for other topics aside from Bayonetta nerfs, Pikachu thunder kill, Mario only being good and not amazing, and why Emblem Lord is wrong/is a meanie

Can we plz plz plz plz plz plz plz plz plz talk about some of the characters we see to be "low tier"? Like the that gave Nairo a run for his money? What about ? He's slowly been getting better results lately and yet we still keep saying that him taking 8 billion years to swing his sword is what makes him trash. 13th at GOML 2016 with a stacked bracket full of top players?

Bruh

 

[Pancracio17]

you forgot , dont sleep on him.

 

[ARGHETH]

What about ? He's slowly been getting better results lately and yet we still keep saying that him taking 8 billion years to swing his sword is what makes him trash. 13th at GOML 2016 with a stacked bracket full of top players?

It's a good result, yeah, but top players? The only high level players he beat are Raziek and Yoh. He got 3-0'd by Alphicans.
Alphicans did have an impressive run, though, beating JJROCKETS, iStudying, and Darkwolf and narrowly losing to Nairo.

 

[Radical Larry]

Chalice Well, you do make a great point into wanting to discuss characters who are lower tier, that might actually be better than we think. People who consider characters like and may need to highly reconsider their worth. Every single one of these characters have gotten spike results and started hitting places where we thought these characters would never hit again. Of their value, I do believe that now they could all be out of simply being called low tier characters and possibly into middle tier or high tier (the latter in Marth's case, of course).

This little set of characters can prove that characters need re-evaluations before a tournament that suddenly makes them show viability. People say that they don't work well, but the results can say otherwise, you know.

You are right, we should talk about the "low tiers". I believe that these "low tiers", however, are simply middle tiers in potential. People see a character for face value and not actual potential. If you really don't see a character's actual worth when results come out, you know you are doing it wrong. This happens with the aforementioned characters, who were all pretty much taken at face value.

Spoiler: And Another Thing

You have to love the fact that people end up ignoring certain results for characters, like many of Link's very positive results that came out lately. I don't know why people insist he is a low tier character when the results say otherwise, but it's getting on my nerves.

 

[Chalice]

you forgot , dont sleep on him.

I purposely left him out because he's had the weakest showings out of all the top tiers and any top level play I see with Sonic Vs whatever top tier I listed was always him getting bodied.

If anything, compared to the 8 top tiers I listed, he would be in the 9th spot in a tier list. The best high tier. Still a top 10 character, but I can't see him getting over the floods of Cloud in tourney

Edit: MY post on got liked by Trela. Senpai noticed me

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Can we be done with who is the best in the game right now? The game is so well balanced and has so many viable characters that we honestly just need to let it grow on its own. Remember, our game is still young while Melee had years to develop it's almost set in stone tier list. Even now, though, the tier list is developing with people like Armada thinking Jigglypuff is #2 and that Falco is dropping.

These characters are so good and go back and forth with each other that we should stop trying to make the final decision. Honestly, they are basically in their own tier and any one of them are the best choice in winning a major.



They are NOT in order. These are the characters that have the best shot at winning majors and pretty even with each other IMO

Now for other topics aside from Bayonetta nerfs, Pikachu thunder kill, Mario only being good and not amazing, and why Emblem Lord is wrong/is a meanie

Can we plz plz plz plz plz plz plz plz plz talk about some of the characters we see to be "low tier"? Like the that gave Nairo a run for his money? What about ? He's slowly been getting better results lately and yet we still keep saying that him taking 8 billion years to swing his sword is what makes him trash. 13th at GOML 2016 with a stacked bracket full of top players?

Bruh

I read your reasoning on Sonic, but I don't see how he is not on this list. You have to remember KEN in japan, and while the most recent Umbera(I think that is how you spell it) had him place lower, so did Earth and Abadango. Not only that but All Might, who is imo on the bottom end of the notable sonics(Kels, 6WX, Joe, KEN, etc.) did get 1st at CEO Prologue out placing MVD(who is meh I have to admit that) and DJ Jack(A Ryu, not the BEST ryu, but still one of the best) I could go more in depth, but I would rather hear a response first then delve into a full off rant before seeing other points.

 

[bc1910]

Top 10 is pretty obvious IMO...



...and I'd say these 10 are quite a way above the rest of the cast right now. Bayo's status is pending.

Still, having 10 seriously viable choices in a series where you typically have between 4 and 1(!) seriously viable choices is pretty amazing.

 

[Chalice]

Fair enough, just add him in the 8 characters I listed and lets be done with it lol

Also remember I said he's still top 10, I just don't think he's as good at winning stuff as the characters I mentioned.

As for the tourney All Might won, not to discredit, but I want to see a Sonic place well with the usual top players in attendance like Larry, ZeRo, Nairo, Ally etc

Until that happens I can't be convinced he's better than the 8 I listed

 

[ShadowGuy1]

We just need 6WX to come to more top level tournaments

 

[Kofu]

Bayonetta still seems decent to me with how fast her combos happen. She's weaker than before (the dABK angle nerf is the biggest change) but still has decent combos and very large normals.

Then again I still struggle to get around her NAir sometimes so maybe I'm not the best person to evaluate her

 

[Trifroze]

Can we plz plz plz plz plz plz plz plz plz talk about some of the characters we see to be "low tier"? Like the that gave Nairo a run for his money?

ZSS beats Mac, although probably not by all that much. Neutral has to be played at a really slow pace with a lot of retreating and shielding, but once a grab is landed one way or another Mac can't land at all and he dies offstage half the time or more if he's launched far enough to have to use his jump before using his recovery move. You first get a chance to kill Mac by reading whether he airdodges or waits you out as he's drifting towards the stage, and then you get another chance to kill him with flip kick when he uses his recovery move.

Many other characters can do the same except punish Mac's recovery move / ledgesnap with something else, usually a projectile.

I don't know what was going on in the set at GOML, but Nairo wasn't punishing Alphicans' rolls at all, super uncharacteristically messed up many punishes and edgeguards (game 1 and 4 endings were an exception), and although ZSS shouldn't throw out raw grabs vs Mac after around 70% because his usmash kills after that, Nairo didn't go for a single raw grab after whiffing one in the first game. Never tried flip kicking Mac's ledgesnap either now that I think back to it. I think he was caught off guard and started tilting as a result, although it would be nice to know his exact thoughts.

ZSS' grab is risky vs Mac of course (you'll eat 20%+ for whiffing one simply by Mac smashing you once), but at low percents it's not any worse than what other characters can do, and Mac straight up dies when he gets put in the air by ZSS.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

I have a question: What do you think are the characters who are viable depending on bracket luck. With a top ten as diverse as it is in Smash 4, it seems to me possible that there are occasionally off characters who can slip through the cracks if they don't run into too many of their worst MUs played by the best players.

As you get closer to top 8, the player skill increases definitely, but you may still run into a situation where either your skill pulls through or you get luckily put into a more even MU.

 

[blackghost]

I have a question: What do you think are the characters who are viable depending on bracket luck. With a top ten as diverse as it is in Smash 4, it seems to me possible that there are occasionally off characters who can slip through the cracks if they don't run into too many of their worst MUs played by the best players.

As you get closer to top 8, the player skill increases definitely, but you may still run into a situation where either your skill pulls through or you get luckily put into a more even MU.

That's a good point. Characters like dk, Marth, palutena, ROB, villager, and luigi. Can make bracket runs but success is dependent on matchups.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Don't forget Ness. Ness goes a long way in a bracket without rosa or sheik.

 

[blackghost]

Don't forget Ness. Ness goes a long way in a bracket without rosa or sheik.

The thing with ness almost anyone can gimp him even accidently. Villager, bayo, lucario, Mario, shiek, corrin, Marth ect. Ness can't avoid everyone that can gimp him. Maybe not as easy as Rosa but some ( especially villager and corrin) do it almost as easily.

 

[C0rvus]

I feel like I can say pretty confidently that Bayonetta isn't top 10. She certainly feels a level below those characters, especially with her neutral. We'll have to see how good her reward shapes up to be and if it makes up for her neutral. She still has some strong cheese as well, like Witch Time and what seems to me to be quite a potent tree of mixups and near-combos. Her disadvantage is quite good. Although the biggest issue atm seems to be her matchup spread. Not looking too impressive, not gonna lie. Diddy really seems to shred her in particular, and he's a popular and powerful pick.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Sorry to go back on an older subject, but it's clear that in the Darkwolf vs Alphicans match Darkwolf did not know the MU. He made fatal mistakes against Little Mac on the ground and did not capitalize on Macs flaws. Please don't take this as johning for Darkwolf, it's just my thoughts on the match

It's kinda strange that truesapphire in lvlupexpo took out one of Americas best little macs(vash) to advance in the bracket before getting out at 17th. I think the difference is that Darkwolf has a lack of MU knowledge for some characters, but you can't blame him for not expecting an amazing little Mac to make it this far in bracket.

Also I agree with the notion that there is no clear cut best character in the game