Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[PK Gaming]

Fun question: which low tier (aside from Marth) and which bottom tier (aside from Lucina) do you all think has the most potential to move up in the future? Kind of curious on what people's thoughts are.

Re: Low tier

Lucas and Mewtwo are a given

Falco, Roy and WFT all have the potential, depending on how their respective metas develop.

Re: Bottom tier

Charizard probably.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Strong conversion probably matters the most. I mean people were fearing Bowser after he got grab confirms even tho his neutral still wasnt godlike nor was his ability to deal with disadvantage.

MK's neutral is pretty linear and honestly not even impressive but since it links directly into his win condition...welp

there ya go

Now, when you say conversion, I'm assuming you're referring to a combination of raw kill options and set ups, right?

Wii Fit and Palutena are interesting because they strongly benefit from smart play and get surprisingly decent results. They're like the Mario/Falcon of the Low Tiers: characters with not terribly high learning curves that mostly excel with good fundamentals.

 

[MistressRemilia]

I'd say Mewtwo could rise in the future given his niche in the metagame.
I'm evaluating Low Tiers by their niche & the exposure of said niche in the metagame, and i've noticed Mewtwo was able to do some work as an anti zoner even before patch ( Ginko in Japan used him )
With that same mindset, i think Duck Hunt is a bit overhated & as a result, placed a bit lower than he is. He's a case of " America Problem " and he's not amazing, he's mostly a gimmicky character, but i think he's more usable in tours than the likes of Link. ImHip has shown that DH had a seemingly decent enough Sheik matchup to be used as a secondary by him specifically for this matchup, it's probably still bad, but a niche is a niche, nonetheless.

 

[bc1910]

Agreed. Bowser and Robin experienced significant tier jumps just for getting KO confirms from throw (and, in Robin's case, a projectile confirm into said throw). Both are still combo food with questionable neutral but they demand a lot more respect.

It works the other way around too. Diddy and Luigi's tier drops occurred after significant nerfs to their KO power. Luigi's being worse because Diddy's incredible neutral and unexplored potential with the banana kept him afloat.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Now, when you say conversion, I'm assuming you're referring to a combination of raw kill options and set ups, right?

The ability to turn a hit or grab into consistent damage or a KO. The more options a character has to "convert" a hit, the more threatening they become. Mario for example has quite a few flaws, but he is unquestionably high tier. Why? Because his conversion is simply monstrously high. For combos anyway. Kill conversions arent really there.

A set-up is not a conversion. It's simply a situation that is weighted in the favor of the aggressor.

A conversion is guaranteed. You got hit? gg son.

 

[Yikarur]

All 3 Mii Fighter will rise when the US finally agrees on the FreeMii standard. I'm happy a lot of tournaments are already adopting it atm.

 

[Y2Kay]

All 3 Mii Fighter will rise when the US finally agrees on the FreeMii standard. I'm happy a lot of tournaments are already adopting it atm.

A local in my area has aggreed to let custom Palutena and Mii's into the tournament.

They did this before, but Aerolink came up here and bodied everyone lol.

 

[Fatmanonice]

A local in my area has aggreed to let custom Palutena and Mii's into the tournament.

They did this before, but Aerolink came up here and bodied everyone lol.

Palutena, Charizard, Megaman, Wii Fit, and Doc are practically whole different characters with customs on. Now that patches are confirmed dead until further notice, I wonder if people's opinions on customs will change? I'm at least hoping the prospect is taken seriously in discussions.

 

[Djent]

On ClashTournaments:
Dabuz SDed and lost as Bayo.
Nairo lost 0-2 to Salem's Bayo.

They will play each other for 17th.
EDIT: It's on now! Nairo lost.

 

[wedl!!]

remember when Bayonetta was going to be mid tier because muh bad frame data

I don't either

 

[Jaguar360]

6WX and Tweek are in Losers as well and Venia only got 3rd in his pool. What the hell is going on at KTAR today? Lmao

 

[Fatmanonice]

On ClashTournaments:

Dabuz SDed and lost as Bayo.
Nairo lost 0-2 to Salem's Bayo.

They will play each other for 17th.

Oh geez... Dabuz already regularly gets booed for playing as Rosa. At this rate, the poor guy is going to need personal body guards at the bigger tournaments. Also, the world's best ZSS losing to Bayo simply makes my heart happy. Good to know at least one of three queens has a check now.

 

[Emblem Lord]

ummmm guys?

Upsets happen alot in new jersey tournaments especially KTAR. Look at past brackets and you will what i mean.

 

[G. Stache]

I predict PSimg is going to be a needed requirement for playing Luigi.

It already is

Yeah it does. Weird thing is how some people still believe Luigi to be top/high tier, when it is clearly shown that he isn't. I'm still salty af about his nerfs tho :/. Poor Luigi can't get kill confirms, but other top tiers with less weaknesses can? Sakurai plz. However that's just my salt.

I would say d-tilt is not really a good tool for racking damage. The trip is really unreliable, and I have no idea why Sakurai decided to nerf a move that has barely any range in the first place.

Agreed on falling nair. It really is one of the staple moves every luigi players should get familiar with for spacing and comboing and catching ledge getups.

DIing Luigi's d-throw is actually not too hard imo. Because of the rather high knockback growth, you can just DI up at mid % and away at high % to minimize Luigi's combo potential, since Luigi is not exactly a character built for aerial chase. Also you can sometimes DI in (towards Luigi) for a DI mixup, which has caught me by surprise before.

I disagree that he is solo viable tho. I think his inability to break zones effectively and play spacing games against fortress characters really hinders him, especially when many top/high tier characters have really good projectiles.

EDIT: How does the matchup versus Marth look like to you? I feel like Marth's increased tipper range and damage is really threatening for Luigis, who can't really approach very well.

Marth is one of those 'annoying, but in our favor' match ups. Hard to approach, but we get Marth to approach anyways. Luigi should never approach unless forced imo. Marth lacks the ability to create conversions like we can, too. Tipper is scary. But that's the only part of Marth that's scary. It creates more of a Samus Charge Shot complex where Luigi has no answer to it, but it's the only thing Luigi actually fears. In fact, the only thing Marth has going for himself in this MU is his neutral game and the tipper on his decently sized disjoint. Marth doesn't have the disadvantage state to get away from Luigi nor the advantage state to keep up with Luigi. And I have yet to see evidence to suggest that it's in Marth's favor. From my personal experience; it's not too bad for Marth, and buffs might tip it to an even MU. But for now, I'd say it's around 6-4 or 55-45 Luigi's favor. Marths strengths don't keep him afloat against Luigi.

Edit: yeah, d tilt isn't reliable, and you should be clicking down on the smash stick 99% of the time anyways (which can score you a Bair at certain percents, btw), but d tilt has it's merits. And the moment when you get that trip RNG makes me all giddy as I go for a grab and get my free %.

 

[Megamang]

In this kill confirm meta, what do you guys think of optimal megaman?

Consider he has the neutral dominated in most matchups, though his reward is low. I say optimal because a perfect Super Glide Toss metal blade forward is a confirm into a utilt for a pretty early kill, or an usmash for a more consistent option (utilt is hard to sweetspot but insanely powerful), but no one consistently pulls off this tech yet (that i have seen).

Eventually we'll have a character that zones with constant projectiles, one of which confirms into a kill at mid 80s or lower. His edgeguarding is crazy good too, though he is susceptible to the same. He is another greninja where the mains (myself included) think his biggest tournament roadblock is definitely sheik and specifically needles, but I personally think the weight differential is enough to keep mega afloat/ 60/40, ie about as winnable as the non queens have with shiek anyways.

Thoughts? Kinda rambly but this talk about underutilized characters has me interested in what people think of megamane.

 

[Browny]

Cloud's throws are good because, while he doesn't get straight extra damage off of them, you can still express damage -> Limit Charged x% as a combo, and it's a combo that works off of every throw and only gets stronger as the opponent's damage grows, which is generally the opposite of how throw combos work! He doesn't get straight kills until, say, 170% (not that Cloud has trouble juggling and boxing opponents to that % anyway), but he does eventually get a speed, power, and presence bonus that carries into the opponent's next stock if he doesn't burn a special.

If clouds throws are good, you must now explain what 'bad' throws are.

If cloud had a combo, kill, 50:50, techchase etc throw, would they be bad?

Why are people constantly avoiding the only question I have ever asked, you cant have something be 'good' unless you define what is 'bad'. Clouds throws are just like Samus' and as I said, Samus uses the time to get herself a full charge shot which is devastating against landings too. Yet everyone universally agrees that her throws are horrible! Pick one!

What sort of throw could we give cloud, that would be a bad throw? Seriously just tell me if you would rather keep uthrow as it is, or have it be one of the above throws.

 

[Nu~]

In this kill confirm meta, what do you guys think of optimal megaman?

Consider he has the neutral dominated in most matchups, though his reward is low. I say optimal because a perfect Super Glide Toss metal blade forward is a confirm into a utilt for a pretty early kill, or an usmash for a more consistent option (utilt is hard to sweetspot but insanely powerful), but no one consistently pulls off this tech yet (that i have seen).

Eventually we'll have a character that zones with constant projectiles, one of which confirms into a kill at mid 80s or lower. His edgeguarding is crazy good too, though he is susceptible to the same. He is another greninja where the mains (myself included) think his biggest tournament roadblock is definitely sheik and specifically needles, but I personally think the weight differential is enough to keep mega afloat/ 60/40, ie about as winnable as the non queens have with shiek anyways.

Thoughts? Kinda rambly but this talk about underutilized characters has me interested in what people think of megamane.

I'm not sure super glide toss will remedy his killing issues. I fight a mega man on the regular that utilizes super glide toss but now that I'm aware of the tech, it isn't threatening. It's telegraphed because he has to have the metal blade in his hand, and it's not fast enough. You can simply jump or roll on reaction. It's a good tool...but I compare it to a pacman setup. Cool to see and awesome when it happens, but falls when the opponent is knowledgeable of its existence.

I still doubt shiek will ever be 40/60 for mega considering his entire gameplan falls apart against her. More than half the cast has a noticeable weight advantage against shiek...and they still fall hard all the same due to shiek's oppressive tools.
Mega v Shiek is a good example of a -3 matchup in this game.

 

[Sinister Slush]

As Emblem Lord said, upsets everywhere. Raptor is currently in Winners Semis, which is like 5th place I think at that point for Ktar.

 

[Megamang]

Worst case for cloud (within reasonable paramaters) would be a very low damage set of throws which have just enough BKB to never combo but don't have the KBG to ever kill...

His pummel makes his throw game much better as well. Fox's throws aren't amazing but refreshing 3 to 5 moves (at high %) is beautiful with a character who will have certain moves highly staled late game.

 

[bc1910]

Who is Vex using? He just eliminated Dabuz.

 

[Fatmanonice]

In this kill confirm meta, what do you guys think of optimal megaman?

Consider he has the neutral dominated in most matchups, though his reward is low. I say optimal because a perfect Super Glide Toss metal blade forward is a confirm into a utilt for a pretty early kill, or an usmash for a more consistent option (utilt is hard to sweetspot but insanely powerful), but no one consistently pulls off this tech yet (that i have seen).

Eventually we'll have a character that zones with constant projectiles, one of which confirms into a kill at mid 80s or lower. His edgeguarding is crazy good too, though he is susceptible to the same. He is another greninja where the mains (myself included) think his biggest tournament roadblock is definitely sheik and specifically needles, but I personally think the weight differential is enough to keep mega afloat/ 60/40, ie about as winnable as the non queens have with shiek anyways.

Thoughts? Kinda rambly but this talk about underutilized characters has me interested in what people think of megamane.

Optimal Megaman would be terrifying but it would take A LOT for him to get to that point compared to the rest of the cast. His glide toss, jab lock, and foot stool options are some of the best in the game but you really don't see these at high levels of play because they become incredibly situational if the skill gaps between players are practically nonexistent. In this same vein, optimal Pac-Man is stupidly good on paper too. For both characters to be a threat at higher levels in their current state, you'd need players who are almost AI levels of perfect because the strategic wealth of both characters is absolutely immense but both have clear drawbacks that only make them intimidating if the match up isn't well known or their respective player is much better than their opponent.

Browny

I'd argue that Cloud's throws are good for positioning but that's about it. People almost exclusively define "good" throws in this game as set up throws and kill throws.

 

[Jucchan]

Earth brought out Corrin against Shimitake's Pikachu in the Grand Finals match of their bracket and won:

Though not as explosive as Bayonetta, Corrin's definitely making her own waves in the tournament scene

That's the B bracket, for players that drowned in pools. That means Earth got 65th.

 

[Djent]

Who is Vex using? He just eliminated Dabuz.

He used vs. Dabuz.

 

[Flux0r]

It must be rather disheartening for Pugwest to use Marth against Cloud. It's almost sad to see how superior (barring recovery) he is compared to Marth.

Pugwest played amazingly, but he should consider a more viable main, he will only put a handicap on himself. Tweek has apparently done so, it seems like it works great so far.

 

[R3D3MON]

It already is
Edit: yeah, d tilt isn't reliable, and you should be clicking down on the smash stick 99% of the time anyways (which can score you a Bair at certain percents, btw), but d tilt has it's merits. And the moment when you get that trip RNG makes me happy as I go for a grab and get my free %.

Thanks for the info. I was just curious what the MU for Marth might be since he got his tipper buffered again. Also I always have somewhat of a stigma against Marth players in general because my friend used to dominate me with his Marth before he switched to Ike (he still somewhat bodies my Luigi until I switch to MK or Mario, lolz).

Yeah, d-smash is a really versatile tool. Combo tool at low-mid %, possible K.O. tool at high %. Amazing for baiting reactions at the ledge so that I can punish ledge getups with Up-smash :D. Do you think d-smash is somewhat of a reliable shield pressure option? I sometimes use it alongside rising aerials and pivot f-tilt, but I haven't really tried it against a competent player. I'm guessing that since Up-smash is somewhat reliable, d-smash might be too.

 

[Megamang]

Fatmanonice can you elaborate on the 'clear drawbacks' of megaman? Im aware that MU knowledge against Pac means he basically can't threaten a kill until ludicrous percents, but Mega doesn't have that problem nearly as bad.


FH Metal Blade can confirm into utilt or usmash, bair is amazing air-to-air for kills, uair kills pretty early for an aerial and can kill insanely early in the right situations, usmash covers multiple ledge options a-la cloud. B-throw is a pretty powerful throw attached to a good grab/dashgrab, especially when leaf shield sets up for it. Leaves also provide a way to force opponents off the ledge with almost zero commitment.

Im a megaman optimist, and I believe there is a way to implement the SGT with FH metal blades, dashgrabs, constant lemons, and strong offstage/ledge game that will allow mega to keep a high pressure neutral which results in solid kills, considering mega himself is heavy but mobile enough to be surviving for a while. But I wanna hear what you think.

If you are only referring to MM vs Shiek, I do agree. and though I said I was optimistic, this is only a game 1 thing as I quickly pull out a CP if i lose to sheik because that MU is **** as long as needles are as they are.

 

[JediLink]

If clouds throws are good, you must now explain what 'bad' throws are.

If cloud had a combo, kill, 50:50, techchase etc throw, would they be bad?

Why are people constantly avoiding the only question I have ever asked, you cant have something be 'good' unless you define what is 'bad'. Clouds throws are just like Samus' and as I said, Samus uses the time to get herself a full charge shot which is devastating against landings too. Yet everyone universally agrees that her throws are horrible! Pick one!

What sort of throw could we give cloud, that would be a bad throw? Seriously just tell me if you would rather keep uthrow as it is, or have it be one of the above throws.

Remember Samus has a tether grab. Although you could argue that Samus and Cloud both have comparable rewards off a successful grab, since Samus' grab is slower and much more punishable on whiff, it's generally a less reliable option. This is why people say Samus' grab is bad. On the other hand, while Cloud's grab is certainly not the best in the game, it's still useful and an important part of his basic toolkit. Can anything that's useful be called bad? Personally I'd say no. Of course you're going to say that if it's below average it still must be bad but I really don't see why it has to be that way. Cloud's grab is fine. It's not great, but it's also not bad.

 

[Megamang]

I think the notion that there must be a set number of good, bad, and average of each move is misguided. As someone said, every recovery except one is bad in smash 64, for example. I'd define a move as bad if it leaves a hole in a character's gameplan that can be exploited in some way, e.g. terribly slow jabs allow characters to repeatedly be boxed down/ rushed to death.

 

[Djent]

Who would have guessed one of the strongest witches would come from Salem?

He's in grand finals now. Pretty sure he's only dropped one game.

 

[Asdioh]

Ha, that does make sense. He hasn't been playing lately right? I remember him being a top player in Brawl, but seeing how much Marss struggled against his Bayo (I just tuned in, missed the rest of stuff) that character is gooood.
Especially against ZSS. Normally her slow grab isn't too big a deal, but her safe attacks are less safe because of Witch Time, so she really has to guess constantly.

 

[C0rvus]

On one hand, Nario lost with Bayonetta, and so did Dabuz.

On the other hand, Salem is bodying everyone with Bayonetta.

NJ is so stacked lol. If Tweek moves on to grands, it'll be another DLC finals. We are officially pay to win, boys.

 

[βℓµε ℱⱡαmε]

None of them because they're all too busy being completely invalidated by Bayonetta, Sheik, ZSS, and Cloud

I will agree that Bayonetta invalidates almost the entire cast. The other top tiers are just top tiers. Not ban-worthy in my opinion. Bayonetta just has too much going for her. I feel that the actual character design of the fighter is flawed. In the same way Little Mac's design archetype made him bad, Bayonetta's design archetype makes her broken. That's just my opinion, though

 

[Kofu]

All 3 Mii Fighter will rise when the US finally agrees on the FreeMii standard. I'm happy a lot of tournaments are already adopting it atm.

I could look for it but would you mind elaborating on what that is (if it's anything special that's not just fully allowing Mii sizes and customs). I'm highly interested in seeing the Miis receive access to their full kit, though I'm kind of the opinion that they should either be restricted to standard or guest size, or the "optimal" size (which IIRC is 25/0 for both?) for consistency.

On one hand, Nario lost with Bayonetta, and so did Dabuz.

On the other hand, Salem is bodying everyone with Bayonetta.

NJ is so stacked lol. If Tweek moves on to grands, it'll be another DLC finals. We are officially pay to win, boys.

Tweek is using Cloud, right?

I will agree that Bayonetta invalidates almost the entire cast. The other top tiers are just top tiers. Not ban-worthy in my opinion. Bayonetta just has too much going for her. I feel that the actual character design of the fighter is flawed. In the same way Little Mac's design archetype made him bad, Bayonetta's design archetype makes her broken. That's just my opinion, though

I don't think Bayonetta invalidates a lot of characters (could easily be wrong though, she's a week and a half old). What is interesting about her attacks is that they seem to have noteworthy disjoint which makes poking and challenging other attacks with them a little safer, probably to help compensate for her poor frame data.

 

[G. Stache]

Yeah, d-smash is a really versatile tool. Combo tool at low-mid %, possible K.O. tool at high %. Amazing for baiting reactions at the ledge so that I can punish ledge getups with Up-smash :D. Do you think d-smash is somewhat of a reliable shield pressure option? I sometimes use it alongside rising aerials and pivot f-tilt, but I haven't really tried it against a competent player. I'm guessing that since Up-smash is somewhat reliable, d-smash might be too.

I've never thought of using it as shield pressure, actually. But, if memory serves, it does decent shield damage while having the least cool down for a smash in the game. In theory, it could work. I use spaced Bairs, SH Dairs & Fairs and F smash if I want shield pressure (and just the looming threat of a grab can pressure a player to make a mistake to capitalize on). I want to test a bit more with D Smash now, though. It could definitely be used for shield pressure. Making it even more of an all-purpose attack.

 

[C0rvus]

Kofu yeah, Tweek is going Cloud. Haven't been watching but I wouldn't be surprised if he went all Cloud. Also it's not to be! Marss gets his rematch with Salem. I'm not convinced Bayo beats ZSS that hard. You just have to play differently.

 

[Asdioh]

Huh. Then ZSS got a lot of grabs and won
These characters are insane though, every time I see matches like this I can't help but think "Kirby can't compete with this, it's like they're playing a different game"

 

[PK Gaming]

That's the B bracket, for players that drowned in pools. That means Earth got 65th.

Oh, my bad

 

[Megamang]

Not to beat the dead horse, but kirby wouldn't be getting hit by all that crazyness if he was crouched!


Jokes aside, Marss says the way to beat bayo was to slow the game down, so maybe its not as hopelessly high paced as it seems. I wish we got to see Dabuz play some Rosa v Bayo, but he went bayo the whole time I believe. Since Rosa can slow the game down and all... but it seems like another MU where luma might not get to play at all, since the divekick is gonna start some luma death and is hard to interrupt if it is hitting. Plus she can't juggle because dives... ceiling kills... I can see why Dabuz isn't a huge fun, though he is buying in atleast =P

 

[Browny]

I think the notion that there must be a set number of good, bad, and average of each move is misguided. As someone said, every recovery except one is bad in smash 64, for example. I'd define a move as bad if it leaves a hole in a character's gameplan that can be exploited in some way, e.g. terribly slow jabs allow characters to repeatedly be boxed down/ rushed to death.

I'm not mad, I just dont know why people arent able to understand this, I can give countless examples.

If I told you that I played a sport that I invented, and I got 30 points in the match. Is that good, average or bad?

It is literally impossible to say how the score rates until a second player comes in. lets say this player scores 60 points. Is that good, bad or average? Again, you can't know the answer until you get more and more samples, youd need like, 10 to make an accurate call. All other 8 teams could score an average 100 and then you'd be very wrong for thinking that 60 was a good score.

It is fundamentally impossible to say that Cloud's throws are 'good' unless you compare it to the average of all throws. Since Clouds arguably has better throws than that puts him in the bottom 17% of the cast.

There is not a finite number of good/average/bad moves in the game, it is perfectly possible for there to be a very uneven split across it. But saying that cloud has good throws is putting him above the majority of the casts throws.

The exact same logic allows me to say that Marths bthrow is a good throw because it does damage, it has a purpose as a positional throw and allows you to chase them in the air. Remeber, if everything is 'good', then nothing is good.

 

[Ffamran]

It is fundamentally impossible to say that Cloud's throws are 'good' unless you compare it to the average of all throws. Since Clouds arguably has better throws than that puts him in the bottom 17% of the cast.

Whoa there, little brownie. Fox and Samus have U-throw and D-throw as setup throws and Little Mac has D-throw for setups. None of theirs kill or guarantee true setups, well, past a certain percent for Samus, but it's still pretty good for guessing DI and following up. I mean, what does Larry do all the time? U-throw, follow DI, Uair. What's Cloud got? D-throw to Cross Slash at low percents if people don't DI right? Annnnnd... nope. Nothing else even if it would be cool and degenerate for him to have a U-throw setup.