Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Megamang]

Ok, you say 'good puffs wouldn't let you do that' but I still don't know what Puff has to contest nair/uair.

 

[Asdioh]

Edit: Asdioh those things you listed as 'breaking the game' are mostly rewards for living a long time, excluding DHD's broken smashes... That is a mistake on the part of DHD's design and is probably fixable without changing rage.

I think rage reducing ridiculous combos early on is a good thing. For example, if you almost kill mario but he barely pulls out an usmash and gets you, he at least doesn't get 60% autocombos on your next stock immediately, while you have to try and kill him making comeback nearly impossible. Coming back is already hard enough with a stock deficit, no rage would make it worse AND the game more boring because every combo would look the same. One optimal BnB would emerge and we'd see whoever gets the first stock start his timeout, and punish anyone for approaching him with his huge combo.

And it generally helps the worst characters. Notably, our most dominant shiekah doesn't benefit much from rage at all compared to most, and still is the best character. It at least breaks her combos and makes d-throw uair have counterplay as simple as 'if i get a few more hits, she can't do it! and if she hits me, its working against that too, AND making it easier for me to kill her"

I like how it makes some moves combo moves and later kill moves, and also helps along with killing in the slower games. Sure it sucks when you hit sonic ones and he comes back and uthrows you for the kill, barely winning because you hit him... But I think by and large it helps the lesser characters greatly. It also feels nice to have a chance at a comeback, because after I get the first kill on a shiek who has taken me to 90% on my second stock, at least within a few hits i can get a hard read utilt and bring the game all the way back!

As long as I main Kirby, and his only saving grace in certain matchups is that he gets big damage off low knockback moves, I will never agree that Rage is well designed, lol. Having a 50% combo turn into a 25% combo because of Rage could easily mean the difference between a win and a loss, and it's a comeback mechanic... working against you, as punishment for doing well? No thanks.
Duck Hunt and ZSS Boost Kick are only two examples, jank stuff happens constantly because of Rage, especially with multihit moves. I've always thought that Rage should have only applied to smash attacks, by making them reasonably stronger at high damage. It prevents most of the "broken" (as in, just doesn't work right) stuff from happening, it still remains a comeback mechanic, and it goes perfectly in line with what Sakurai apparently wants: more risks being taken with unsafe moves like smash attacks!

And don't compare it to the abomination of game design that was tripping. Tripping was terrible. It was a giant **** you to the competitive community. It could happen once per 1000 games and still be an abomination. It punished what, footsies? Existing? Doing anything but standing in place? It was garbage game design, garbage not only for its effect but for what it stated. Man i hated tripping. Even when I tripped after dash dancing as a taunt, it was like being reminded a dream was dead.

You're right of course, tripping is the worst closely followed by Sonic.






Edit: I would gladly use Ganondorf against Jigglypuff, lol. And I don't even play Ganondorf seriously. That matchup should be preeeetty easy. Well.. maybe. At least, I'd rather use Ganondorf against her than Kirby... at least the matches would end quicker, win or lose.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I have an idea

TheReflexWonder

What are your thoughts on Wario vs. Cloud? Or Wario in general, for that matter?

Smooth Criminal

Wario loses due to the combination of raw disjoints and solid mobility, primarily. Limit is actually less of an issue for Wario than most characters because he has the mobility to avoid it, and because it will get there whether you like it or not (Wario can't approach Cloud), so you're still encouraged to camp for Waft.

Wario does well against most of the not-high tiers and does poorly against most of the high tiers. Just too slow, and non-Waft punishes are too weak.

 

[RDR7]

We literally never have to get close to Puff, she has no reliable ways to get past our Nair, if the Ganon rushes in then sure Puff may win but you have nothing to force us to approach.
As i said the other ones are arguable but we definitely don't lose to Kirby for the same reasons as puff, we never have to approach, if we play lame the MU gets super boring & i believe Ganon can lame out Kirby a bit harder than Kirby can lame out Ganon.
Also we don't beat DDD, i'm with william on this one, it's either even or slightly in DDD's favor.

Puff v Ganon is not a free matchup. Nair is slow if not AVERAGE speed and doesn't autocancel until frame 41. so I can just bait it and weave in with my superior air mobility. Also take into consideration when puff gets in. You will most likely take a LOT of damage. If not enough damage to make YOU approach. You are also playing one of the most gimpable characters in the game, against a character with great aerials that can cover several of your recovery options. A good puff will know how to pressure you and bait you properly offstage. Now I'm not implying we win the matchup. You can get a stray read and kill at 60 but you also have to put puff's strengths into play. Far from a free matchup, and until I'm proven otherwise with a serious reason then I'd put it even.

 

[Megamang]

Asdioh but rage benefits mostly from throws and tilts. If sakurai wanted more smashes used, he could make them safe, but he doesn't. He enjoys the unsafeness of them? Idk, but I feel for you, when your main is specifically hindered by rage I can see how you dislike it. I think the optimal solution would have been a rage-multiplier that was set to x0 with problematic moves. I haven't been roofie'd by boost kick in forever, but my character has solid aerial mobility to avoid the situation entirely. My character also benefits from rage, as a heavy with a tremendously strong tilt, and moderately strong kill throws.

Speaking of which, I feel like the addition of kirby's strong uthrow, especially with a platform based kill situation, would benefit heavily from rage? I guess being light makes it suspect, and dying to a rage-induced kill throw before you can get yours off probably happens just as often.

Regardless, I really like the design behind rage, and I'm sorry you have particular situations where it doesn't work this way, but by and large its a nice comeback mechanic. I thought increased knockback always scaled with increased hitstun? I guess the low % combos aren't about histun as much as keeping them super close and hitting them before they have a real option/abusing landing traps. Shrug. At least when you damage shiek enough you don't get d-throw uair confirmed?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Ike neither does as poorly against Sheik as Greninja does [30/70], nor does he have as much of a chance at beating her as Rosalina does [40/60]. It just seems like the next logical step to classify it as 35/65. The .5 doesn't account for anything specific except for the fact that by design smash is a bit more complex than your average, traditional fighter. Too complex to allow us to classify all matchups on an "out of ten" scale with what I consider sufficient accuracy.



Dude, that matchups blows so hard.

vs was already about 3/7 in Marth's favor and is pretty much on steroids.

80:20? Don't think so. Some of the main reasons :was as is was because of the grab release death trap. And 's aerials are still better than clouds; cloud can't wall out people to the same degree as brawl Marth.

Also, this time around wario has no grab release crap to worry about.

EDIT: 2 pages late. Ain't that bout a blimp.

 

[Locke 06]

If a puff cannot whiff punish a Ganondorf constantly NAir/uairing, they're bad.

 

[Nobie]

The way I've interpreted Sakurai's desire for people to use Smash Attacks more is just... he wants people to take more risks while fighting!

He wants people to put their stocks on the line to secure a kill, to get that wonderful read where you don't have a nice safety net to support you. He doesn't want people just doing safe moves over and over.

Maybe that's why he enjoyed Abadango vs. Nairo so much. Nothing says crazy high-risk, high-reward like two characters trying to elevator combo each other to death.

 

[HoSmash4]

Ok, you say 'good puffs wouldn't let you do that' but I still don't know what Puff has to contest nair/uair.

There are good jigglypuffs? Please enlighten me

 

[C0rvus]

Reflex used to play Puff I guess. Serynder is MD/VA and I haven't seen him play in ages. My college scene has a Puff on the PR, actually (gives you an idea of our power level if nothing else lol)

 

[Deleted member]

There are good jigglypuffs? Please enlighten me

RDR7 . He just posted on this page. Ranked 7th on South Carolina PR.

There was BrianYDG, who got 17th at Super Smash Con supposedly going solo Puff, but he's dropped her since then and only uses her in dubs. CrazieCuban here in Florida uses Puff, but with a few other characters. Dol is a Puff main in Japan but I'm not aware of his placements.

But this does reinforce your point more if anything else. Puff's rep at high level is extremely lacking.

 

[Greward]

80:20? Don't think so. Some of the main reasons :was as is was because of the grab release death trap. And 's aerials are still better than clouds; cloud can't wall out people to the same degree as brawl Marth.

Also, this time around wario has no grab release crap to worry about.

While I agree that it's not a 2-8, smash4 Wario is also waaay weaker than it's Brawl incarnation, even taking into account the grab release stuff. So all the things cloud have worse than marth, wario is also a super nerfed version than the brawl one.

 

[Megamang]

The way I've interpreted Sakurai's desire for people to use Smash Attacks more is just... he wants people to take more risks while fighting!

He wants people to put their stocks on the line to secure a kill, to get that wonderful read where you don't have a nice safety net to support you. He doesn't want people just doing safe moves over and over.

Maybe that's why he enjoyed Abadango vs. Nairo so much. Nothing says crazy high-risk, high-reward like two characters trying to elevator combo each other to death.

Then why did he give queen safety-the-character a kill combo from a safe throw, and a disjointed fair... Character identity?!

Anyways, Wario is another character who was hindered by game mechanics. Making it so airdodging into the ground isn't nearly as safe hurt wario, as his airdodge and air mobility were the ways he circumvented his bad range. And while he is still fast, he is in a totally different environment. The top tiers have really high burst mobility and aerial acceleration, where in brawl Wario was alone for his combination of airspeed/power/mobility/weight, he kinda loses the mobility benefit when he is surrounded by characters with not only similar burst mobility, but great burst movement options as well as burst hitboxes to cover ground.

Also, his f-smash in brawl was crazy good. I'm glad thats gone, it would be a terror in this game. Also, not having the tires to do chip damage is kinda annoying, since he has such motivation for a slow paced game it really gave him something to do, and that is never a bad thing.

 

[Vipermoon]

RE: Brawl ,

For those interested, here's one the better Marths and Warios duking it out at a MI regional's Brawl side event last weekend (what? you think B is dead or something? over my dead body!).

V115 wins both sets but LOE1 was doing well.

 

[Shaya]

Wario had sneaky reaching fairs (would hit marth's hands in fair vs fair moments first), good bair range, safe-ish down air cross overs, the best standard grab range/animation in the game after Dedede and the fast super armor forward smash.

Grab release shenanigans were a really big part to it. But Wario could play toe to toe with Marth better than people expected.
While Marth would have guaranteed grab damage (grab release up smash was a nice 20%+), and guaranteed kills usually by the 110% mark (platforms were a thing and you weren't getting FD ever; wario could live surprisingly high from tipper fsmash still), Wario emasculated Marth on the ledge with triple jump glitch.

Optimal theoretical play styles could push that match up into looking really one sided, but not too many people would ever really consider how Marth's chances of getting off a ledge past 100% with a stock was at best a fifth of the time against the likes of Wario.
(Triple jump glitch was turning Marth's landing aerials from -3/-7 to close to -20).

 

[san.]

stuff

I'm surprised you responded. I'm getting a little tired of people thinking Gunner has like DHD perceived kill potential and Dr. Mario recovery. Even a simple fsmash at the ledge can kill at 100 and is pretty easy to land. There are more ways to kill with just a bit of risk. There are just few no-risk kill confirms unless you use 0/0 gunner where projectiles can confirm into uair well.

 

[Vipermoon]

Wario had sneaky reaching fairs (would hit marth's hands in fair vs fair moments first), good bair range, safe-ish down air cross overs, the best standard grab range/animation in the game after Dedede and the fast super armor forward smash.

Grab release shenanigans were a really big part to it. But Wario could play toe to toe with Marth better than people expected.
While Marth would have guaranteed grab damage (grab release up smash was a nice 20%+), and guaranteed kills usually by the 110% mark (platforms were a thing and you weren't getting FD ever; wario could live surprisingly high from tipper fsmash still), Wario emasculated Marth on the ledge with triple jump glitch.

Optimal theoretical play styles could push that match up into looking really one sided, but not too many people would ever really consider how Marth's chances of getting off a ledge past 100% with a stock was at best a fifth of the time against the likes of Wario.
(Triple jump glitch was turning Marth's landing aerials from -3/-7 to close to -20).

He didn't start using grab release to pivot Fsmash for kills until later in set 2 for some reason. Maybe people are forgetting Brawl stuff.

Edit: I love how many Marth mains use ZSS in Smash 4. There's someone like that in MI too

 

[Luig]

I'm glad they fixed RCO lag mostly in smash 4, though it still exists in a slightly different form.

 

[Asdioh]

RE: Brawl ,


For those interested, here's one the better Marths and Warios duking it out at a MI regional's Brawl side event last weekend (what? you think B is dead or something? over my dead body!).

Not to get off topic, but holy crap this makes me so glad that Smash 4 is what Brawl should have been. Thank you Sakurai/Namco/whoever!

On topic(?) Kirby vs Luigi https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8BKj9gZASI this is amusing xD "I started using Luigi vs Kirby a week before Luigi got nerfed, and I won, then the patch happened and I still won"
I would trade all the short crouch height in the world for more mobility and faster startup on moves, particularly aerials!
I personally don't think Luigi is Kirby's hardest matchup, but it's definitely not an easy one.

Kirby doesn't matter to the metagame though, so let's talk about Cloud. Wow, way better character, why don't I use him in almost every matchup?? I can't think of a single "good top tier matchup for Kirby" character that Cloud wouldn't do at least well against. I think he's underrated on the 4BR tier list, though it's somewhat understandable, because he wasn't out long when the tier list came out. Semi-related note, but I can't help but wonder if Villager would have been significantly lower if Genesis 3 didn't happen 2 weeks before the tier list came out.

 

[BananaBake]

So is anyone willing to point out Wario's strengths? All that I saw was that bit about his Fair, Bair, and Dair, and some about his standing grab

 

[Shaya]

He didn't start using grab release to pivot Fsmash for kills until later in set 2 for some reason. Maybe people are forgetting Brawl stuff.

Edit: I love how many Marth mains use ZSS in Smash 4. There's someone like that in MI too

V115 mained ZSS nearly purely in Brawl. But like how the inverse is true now, ZSS was all about dreaming she had Marth things (like his more fitting well-tuned mobility specs [jump heights, fall speeds, etc]) and they've maintained similarities in design and play style through both games as well.
I've only really seen him use Marth in the later years of the game, maybe on occasion where it's annoying match ups for ZSS (which in this case, I believe Wario was one of them).

 

[Jaguar360]

So is anyone willing to point out Wario's strengths? All that I saw was that bit about his Fair, Bair, and Dair, and some about his standing grab

Waft, very good edgeguarding with the combination of his aerials, bike, dash attack and aerial mobility, a good b-reversible command grab that can be used in the air and great survivability make Wario a great character.

His main shortcoming is his lack of range and his damage output can be a bit subpar.

 

[BananaBake]

Waft, very good edgeguarding with the combination of his aerials, bike, dash attack and aerial mobility, a good b-reversible command grab that can be used in the air and great survivability make Wario a great character.

His main shortcoming is his lack of range and his damage output can be a bit subpar.

Thanks dude, just wasn't really sure on how he was strong in any way, I hardly see Warios anywhere I play Smash

 

[Deleted member]

Waft, very good edgeguarding with the combination of his aerials, bike, dash attack and aerial mobility, a good b-reversible command grab that can be used in the air and great survivability make Wario a great character.

His main shortcoming is his lack of range and his damage output can be a bit subpar.

To add on to Wario's strengths, He also has a kill throw in the form of forward throw. Fasfalled up air is also a hella good move. One of his weaknesses is that he lacks a fast aerial to escape combos/strings, but that's a common weakness among most heavies.

 

[BSP]

Rage is tripping without the randomness, and spread like a thin layer throughout a matchup rather than all at once in what is potentially a single pivotal moment.

I didn't think about tripping vs rage much until just now, and the bold is why I actually have to think about it instead of saying "of course random tripping is 100 times worse!"

There was a small chance that random tripping would screw me over. When I played brawl, I had to hope I didn't trip at the wrong time. This game though...I know that rage is going to screw me over unless my opponent is god awful or I'm that much better than them.

Dang, this conversation just reminded me of how much I detest rage. I don't even know what to call it because it can be good or bad for who's winning or losing depending on the situation...but at the end of the day dying faster for landing hits is just "..." in my book.

Yes, I know I'm biased because Pac-Man loses a lot more to rage than he gains, but I still don't like the mechanic regardless of who I'm playing at the time. It's comparable to tripping for me lol.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Falcon probably gets wrecked by MK as well. And I consider 40:60 to be -2; it's really hard to win a 40:60 at high or top level. Losing 40:60 is losing hard. So if you're saying Falcon loses 40:60 to other characters on top of "losing hard" to Sheik and Pikachu, then he actually loses hard to plenty of high tiers. In the current meta, he is worse than the characters you mentioned. They are doing far more impressive things. He's right behind ROB, though.

Falcon goes even with Meta Knight. He's the perfect weight for early Knee kill confirms.
This has been said before, but 40:60 isn't losing hard. It's disadvantaged but manageable. If losing were the case, how would 20:80 even exist? I know they're rare in this game, but that would make them absolutely unwinnable, but unwinnable is kind of what 0:100 would imply. Why have a ratio out of 100 if there isn't a reason to go past 30:70? Seems kind of pointless, don't you think?
Falcon placed fairly well at Genesis 3, and that really wasn't that long ago. Those result do still matter, just as much as Toon Link's fantastic placement there does, and probably more so than a few regional wins of other characters. If we see more of Lucario, Toon Link, Greninja, etc with higher placings at the next large national or international tournament, great! Let 'em have Falcon's position once such things are acomplished. But we need to see that happen.

Just being picky but I think Sonic is the character Pit loses hard to. I mean if the Pit specialist Earth picks up Fox for the sake of that MU then it must be bad. Besides Nairo held his own really well against Esam using Dark Pit (albeit a while back), and Earth generally beats the Shieks in his bracket and does ok against Shieks who are arguably better than him as players e.g ZeRo and Rain. Yeah I wouldn't say those are the MU's he loses hard to. Not saying that he wins them but they aren't that bad

I was saying Falcon loses to Sheik and Pikachu, not that Pit does. I don't play Pit enough to claim to know any of his MUs.

 

[Djmarcus44]

I'm surprised you responded. I'm getting a little tired of people thinking Gunner has like DHD perceived kill potential and Dr. Mario recovery. Even a simple fsmash at the ledge can kill at 100 and is pretty easy to land. There are more ways to kill with just a bit of risk. There are just few no-risk kill confirms unless you use 0/0 gunner where projectiles can confirm into uair well.

I just respond when I have time in order to help inform people about Gunner (since it helps change the minds of some people, it seems to be worth the effort). I think that a response is warranted when someone claims that Gunner loses one of the character's easiest matchups. While it is much easier to just be silent until the misinformation is proven wrong in tournament play, I haven't seen too many Gunner players take full advantage of Gunner's offensive tools (Not enough players use gundashing to extend strings and juggle, and I haven't seen too many players take advantage of Gunner's throw combos or jab follow ups). Since Gunner isn't a very popular character anyway, it isn't too hard to tell people about Gunner's tools.

Gunner is just severely underrated in general. For some reason, there are people that still think that 1111 brawler is better than 1111 Gunner, even though this contradicts results, theory, and the opinion of Dapuffster (he thinks that 1111 brawler is the worst character in the game without question). Some people think that Mii Gunner is terrible at everything since Mii Gunner is low on the tier list, and Gunner isn't played very often in tournaments.

 

[Luco]

People love to forget that Gunner has one of the best Fairs and Nairs in the game. I'm guessing gundashing is using the wavebounce from Fair in the other direction to approach quickly, and it's really quite scary to have to deal with lawl.

Gunners normals are legit, and if you believe in 'free the mii', his other sets are godlike.

 

[L9999]

I just respond when I have time in order to help inform people about Gunner (since it helps change the minds of some people, it seems to be worth the effort). I think that a response is warranted when someone claims that Gunner loses one of the character's easiest matchups. While it is much easier to just be silent until the misinformation is proven wrong in tournament play, I haven't seen too many Gunner players take full advantage of Gunner's offensive tools (Not enough players use gundashing to extend strings and juggle, and I haven't seen too many players take advantage of Gunner's throw combos or jab follow ups). Since Gunner isn't a very popular character anyway, it isn't too hard to tell people about Gunner's tools.

Gunner is just severely underrated in general. For some reason, there are people that still think that 1111 brawler is better than 1111 Gunner, even though this contradicts results, theory, and the opinion of Dapuffster (he thinks that 1111 brawler is the worst character in the game without question). Some people think that Mii Gunner is terrible at everything since Mii Gunner is low on the tier list, and Gunner isn't played very often in tournaments.

At least someone plays 1111 Gunner. ROM from Japan did great in some tournaments with 1111. Trela used to play 1111 Swordfighter, but that was too long ago and no one plays him anymore, and no one dares to play 1111 Brawler, so by elimination and the available proof, Gunner is the one with most hope of the 1111 Miis.

 

[Ffamran]

People love to forget that Gunner has one of the best Fairs and Nairs in the game. I'm guessing gundashing is using the wavebounce from Fair in the other direction to approach quickly, and it's really quite scary to have to deal with lawl.

Gunners normals are legit, and if you believe in 'free the mii', his other sets are godlike.

Gunner's Uair is stupid too. Imagine the setups with an Uair that's a giant pillar of doom.

 

[Djmarcus44]

People love to forget that Gunner has one of the best Fairs and Nairs in the game. I'm guessing gundashing is using the wavebounce from Fair in the other direction to approach quickly, and it's really quite scary to have to deal with lawl.

Gunners normals are legit, and if you believe in 'free the mii', his other sets are godlike.

What you said is true (although gunner's nair isn't that great compared to the nairs of cloud and corrin). You are also right about Gundashing. It is really good for Gunner since it helps Gunner's recovery as well as give Gunner decent mobility overall.

Ffamran , Gunner's up air is great for catching airdodges after an up throw or a down throw. I am happy that it got buffed in power since it allows gunner to kill at reasonable percents from a grab and a DI read.

 

[PK Gaming]

Did anyone catch Prince Ramen's set against M2K? It was pretty damn impressive.

Palutena is so bad, but Prince Ramen's play is so ridiculously on point. I can only imagine how well he'd do if she was better...

 

[Deleted member]

Did anyone catch Prince Ramen's set against M2K? It was pretty damn impressive.

Palutena is so bad, but Prince Ramen's play is so ridiculously on point. I can only imagine how well he'd do if she was better...

Prince Ramen is an absolutely fantastic player. One of the best players here in Florida no question, the way he plays neutral along with his reads are excellent. He goes to my weeklies but I haven't had the opportunity to play him yet, but from what I've seen he's scary.

The amount of work he's put into Palutena really has to be commended, especially for such a poorly regarded character. I really have to give huge props to him, especially since he's ranked #1 here in CFL.

 

[Megamang]

Adding to Wario's strengths, his nair is an interesting and effective neutral and pressure tool. Somewhere on the wario boards, there is a well thought out chart that shows how usable the nair is in certain MUs, with information like whether a character can punish it at all if it lands in front of them, on their shield, etc. His recovery is pretty amazing when you add up all his tools, he really isn't getting gimped except maybe with Ryu combo's into dair and maybe shiek stuff, a really strong read from a pika thunder... maybe if the wario gets cheeky and tries to fight at the ledge he can eat a spike from someone like Cloud, but really if he wants he can just totally circumvent the ledge game and reset to neutral because he is really mobile and the bike launches him pretty damn far.

Also, I know it was mentioned but Bite is an amazing move, and probably the best command grab. I say probably because of how good Bowser's is now, but Warios is definitely the easiest to land. His aerial weaving means he can suddenly drop a bite on a defensive opponent and almost always get the grab, and if they roll the move is fast enough at recovering that Wario is probably fine. If they use some OOS aerial or special, bite probably 'trades' but wins, where wario takes the initial hit and then you get chomped for full damage. It also leads into Waft even more, because in stalemate situations Wario can eat stuff to charge up his waft. He is one of 3 characters (I believe this is all) that can heal when left to their own devices.

In some MUs, like vs Megaman, the bite is an amazing answer to zoning. He freakin eats the metal gear and gains 1%... annoying, since chip damage zoning ending up healing the opponent is the exact opposite of what you want to happen.

And, the combination of good weight, recovery, mobility, and a forward facing kill throw means he can really come through in clutch situations. He is probably one of the best game clutchers with Waft, kill throws, huge survivability, a command grab (getting into advantage smoothly is an advantage that cannot be overstated) and a healing move to force reactions.

Also, his edgeguarding and ledge game is pretty scary if you don't know how to carefully avoid the bike, getting hit with the bike and following attack does an absurd amount of damage, especially when you consider that the bike is probably going to bounce up and hit you twice.

Oh, and if he almost gets you with fthrow but doesn't, he can use that bike to unstale the move for the next throw to kill.

Dsmash gimps, but otherwise his smashes are kinda meh. The normal Mario Bros Usmash is still pretty solid though. Bair starts killing... Wario is solid, just held back as most Wario mains will tell you, by his matchups with the characters above him. He is good, but he just doesn't have a really solid place in the meta. But, due to his ability to clutch games and generally reward his player with high mobility, he will always have some players who get results with him, in my prediction/opinion.

 

[BananaBake]

Adding to Wario's strengths, his nair is an interesting and effective neutral and pressure tool. Somewhere on the wario boards, there is a well thought out chart that shows how usable the nair is in certain MUs, with information like whether a character can punish it at all if it lands in front of them, on their shield, etc. His recovery is pretty amazing when you add up all his tools, he really isn't getting gimped except maybe with Ryu combo's into dair and maybe shiek stuff, a really strong read from a pika thunder... maybe if the wario gets cheeky and tries to fight at the ledge he can eat a spike from someone like Cloud, but really if he wants he can just totally circumvent the ledge game and reset to neutral because he is really mobile and the bike launches him pretty damn far.

Also, I know it was mentioned but Bite is an amazing move, and probably the best command grab. I say probably because of how good Bowser's is now, but Warios is definitely the easiest to land. His aerial weaving means he can suddenly drop a bite on a defensive opponent and almost always get the grab, and if they roll the move is fast enough at recovering that Wario is probably fine. If they use some OOS aerial or special, bite probably 'trades' but wins, where wario takes the initial hit and then you get chomped for full damage. It also leads into Waft even more, because in stalemate situations Wario can eat stuff to charge up his waft. He is one of 3 characters (I believe this is all) that can heal when left to their own devices.

In some MUs, like vs Megaman, the bite is an amazing answer to zoning. He freakin eats the metal gear and gains 1%... annoying, since chip damage zoning ending up healing the opponent is the exact opposite of what you want to happen.

And, the combination of good weight, recovery, mobility, and a forward facing kill throw means he can really come through in clutch situations. He is probably one of the best game clutchers with Waft, kill throws, huge survivability, a command grab (getting into advantage smoothly is an advantage that cannot be overstated) and a healing move to force reactions.

Also, his edgeguarding and ledge game is pretty scary if you don't know how to carefully avoid the bike, getting hit with the bike and following attack does an absurd amount of damage, especially when you consider that the bike is probably going to bounce up and hit you twice.

Oh, and if he almost gets you with fthrow but doesn't, he can use that bike to unstale the move for the next throw to kill.

Dsmash gimps, but otherwise his smashes are kinda meh. The normal Mario Bros Usmash is still pretty solid though. Bair starts killing... Wario is solid, just held back as most Wario mains will tell you, by his matchups with the characters above him. He is good, but he just doesn't have a really solid place in the meta. But, due to his ability to clutch games and generally reward his player with high mobility, he will always have some players who get results with him, in my prediction/opinion.

Hmm. Seems to me, (IMO) that Villager is a problem for him. Villager is pretty great at zoning, and I don't think Wario can Chomp any projectiles of Villy's. He can pocket the bike so Wario can't use it (Not to sure about that, tho. Can he pull out another Bike while Villager has it in his pocket?) And Villager has no problem going deep for an edgegaurd. I have no idea about the actual MU, though because I rarely see a Wario anywhere. But that's my thought on that MU.

 

[Djent]

It feels weird to be defending a character that I effectively dropped, but I'm not convinced is actually "so bad." TLTC, IceNinja, Prince Ramen, and possibly others I'm forgetting still pull off consistent top 8 local and regional finishes; this suggests that her flaws are more manageable than those of many other low tiers. She's not "viable" at the major level, but her results are far too good for her to be anywhere close to the bottom.

Funnily enough, I was just reviewing her mobility stats and they are incredibly similar to Pika's (in terms of walking, running, air speed and acceleration). Combine this with two invincible moves, and she can kind of force her way in despite large parts of her kit serving little to no function in a lot of matchups. I realize that this thread is over thinking she's bottom tier, but I wouldn't even feel comfortable putting her in the grouping above that as in the current list.

EDIT: wording/clarity.

 

[Deleted member]

Hmm. Seems to me, (IMO) that Villager is a problem for him. Villager is pretty great at zoning, and I don't think Wario can Chomp any projectiles of Villy's. He can pocket the bike so Wario can't use it (Not to sure about that, tho. Can he pull out another Bike while Villager has it in his pocket?) And Villager has no problem going deep for an edgegaurd. I have no idea about the actual MU, though because I rarely see a Wario anywhere. But that's my thought on that MU.

Wario in general struggles with disjoints and good zoners, mostly due to his mediocre range.

It feels weird to be defending a character that I effectively dropped, but I'm not convinced is "so bad." TLTC, IceNinja, Prince Ramen, and possibly others I'm forgetting still pull off consistent top 8 local and regional finishes; this suggests that her flaws are more manageable than those of many other low tiers. She's not "viable" at the major level, but her results are far too good for her to be anywhere close to bottom tier.

Funnily enough, I was just reviewing her mobility stats and they are incredibly similar to Pika's (walk, run, air speed and accel.). Combine this with two invincible moves, and she can kind of force her way in despite large parts of her kit serving little to no function in a lot of matchups. I realize that people are over thinking she's bottom tier, but I wouldn't even feel comfortable putting her in the grouping above that as in the current list.

Yes! Finally somebody who feels the same way I do about Palutena. Whenever I see people consider Palutena somewhere near bottom 5 it's almost always a case of character ignorance. She's definitely not going to break out on a national level anytime soon due to her current state, but she's not outright irredeemable garbage. I actually have similar sentiments when it comes to Samus, but that's another story I suppose.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Palutena seems like this weird combination of grappler/hit and run (with customs making her lean more towards the latter).

Her invincible moves are outstanding in burst movement and general quickness.

Her smashes as a package aren't great but usmash is incredibly strong and godlike for catching 2-frame and surprising opponents on platforms/above you. Plus the f-smash windbox for shenanigans (I know this as a Cloud player).

Jab is also a strong reset/mixup tool to lead into more grab followups or catch them jumping with uair/usmash.

I also heard utilt catches opponents grabbing ledge with her ground hitboxes. If so, that'll probably be dandy in the future for Palu mains.

 

[BananaBake]

Wario in general struggles with disjoints and good zoners, mostly due to his mediocre range.

Thanks for clearing that up. I was just curious about the MU because he eliminates MMan's Metal Blade with chomp, and I wanted to know if he can take out one of Villy's Projectiles, too

 

[Deleted member]

Palutena seems like this weird combination of grappler/hit and run (with customs making her lean more towards the latter).

Her invincible moves are outstanding in burst movement and general quickness.

Her smashes as a package aren't great but usmash is incredibly strong and godlike for catching 2-frame and surprising opponents on platforms/above you. Plus the f-smash windbox for shenanigans (I know this as a Cloud player).

Jab is also a strong reset/mixup tool to lead into more grab followups or catch them jumping with uair/usmash.

I also heard utilt catches opponents grabbing ledge with her ground hitboxes. If so, that'll probably be dandy in the future for Palu mains.

Reading this posts reminded me of how good Palutena's grounded attacks would be if they weren't so sluggish (frame 8 jab and a forward tilt where you can't act out of it until frame 68. why.) Her frame data is pretty bad in relation to her weight, shares this flaw but Pally is definitely better than her anyways.