Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[C0rvus]

The kick from Dragon Lunge has given Witch Time trouble in my experience, since it's so active and it tend to clank. Ryu's aerials and tilts have so little cool down that he tends to have time to get another action out. Lots of moves clank, and if the Bayo goes for a Smash attack to seal the stock, and it clanks, she doesn't have much time left to swing hard again thanks to the duration nerf.

However, the optimal punish seems to me to be just to get them in the air, so you can hit a high dive kick when WT wears off. Then, finish the combo and the stock. Saw Pink Fresh doing it at Glitch and it worked often enough.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I don't understand what you're getting at here.



Essentially, yes. That's what I'm saying. From a game design aspect and not a competitive aspect. Because there is definitely a balance to strike between how fun a game is and how competitive it is. As a player and viewer who enjoys the interactions between players, I like stages that promote these interactions. UCT and KJ64 promote less interactions. Ever seen people box outside of a ring? If they get in a bad position all they have to do is back away. In a boxing ring you can only run so far, which encourages interactions.

This is NOT to say I can't find defensive play entertaining. I enjoy defensive play in boxing, hell I enjoy watching Mayweather. BUT, defensive play in a ring takes WAY more skill than in open field. When I see someone playing defensively on KJ64, it's not entertaining cause it takes no skill to run away on KJ64. But a timeout on Smashville or Town & City? That **** takes skill son.



I don't care about timeouts if the core gameplay is satisfying. Brain dead camping is just as annoying as any other brain dead strategy though.



I think that you think I was saying melee has a better stage list. I only mention melee because Melee's physics make the large stage archetype more bareable than Smash 4's physics. Melee's stage list is far from perfect.

The stage is a lot smaller than it was in Melee (about 20% smaller), while character models have all increased by about 10% from Brawl. In other words, you are still fighting in a ring, that's just larger. None of the stages are like fighting outside (I'm a UFC dude so here goes the reference) octagon. UFC's rings are smaller too so it could promote quicker interactions, but the Bellator at or and a few other rings are slightly larger with smaller athletes, but doesn't detract any of the fun of the match. If all it takes to make you less invested inrounds is slightly less interactions, then I don't think there's much that could be said other than be patient.

Camping is an inevitable thing in all facets of sports as long as time is involved. What people underrate is the mental fortitude someone needs to successfully time someone out. Not many have it, and I don't think the sanctioning of KJ 64 is gonna make en masse people to get it.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

i think it's worth noting that its INCREDIBLY hard to get a meaningful punish on spin dash, even if it's witch timed. if you do a SDJ the moment you get witch timed and spring, struggles to get more than a measly 9% uair. go figure. are there any other moves than **** with witch time like that? i think flare blitz might have some wonky interactions with it since it's a two hit move that's very powerful.

If one of Shulk's aerials gets Witch Time'd and he manages to land before Bayo punishes, he can use MALLC (Monado Activation/swapping is not effected by the slowdown) and ride out the invincibility of the activation.

 

[HFlash]

He's in the discord chat where I am in. He's actually not a bad person at all. It's just a lot of us are frustrated by bayonettas combos, and that isn't a good excuse for whining.

His reaction doesn't make him a bad person, and getting frustrated like that doesn't help at all. When you lack MU knowledge and lose like that, it's so much better to laugh it off and make friends with your opponent. More often than not, if asked, your opponent will themselves give you advice on how to deal with their character, particularly in a weekly setting. Regardless of the character, there isn't an excuse for poor spacing.

Re: Safe moves on WT: Dtilt as Cloud is pretty safe. Being low to the ground and having intangibility frames really limits the punish options bayo has when that move gets with timed.

 

[apparently fuz]

Speaking of Bayonetta, who does she actually lose to?

 

[Smog Frog]

for sure, are a little suspect

 

[C0rvus]

Good players

 

[HFlash]

for sure,

I would explain why before you get an infraction.

 

[bc1910]

Might be worth looking into the Fox/Bayo MU now that she can't spam Witch Time against him.

Both Mario Bros should do decently as well, though their recoveries are a little suspect and she's hard for them to kill.

I really don't like Sheik vs Bayo any more.

 

[juddy96]

Germany also has a major tournament this weekend so there's going to be a ton of interesting results to digest. The timing couldn't be better for fresh results.

Germany has something this weekend too? That's 3 European tourneys of 100+ this weekend, there's ones in France and Spain too

 

[Halifax?]

The stage is a lot smaller than it was in Melee (about 20% smaller), while character models have all increased by about 10% from Brawl. In other words, you are still fighting in a ring, that's just larger. None of the stages are like fighting outside (I'm a UFC dude so here goes the reference) octagon. UFC's rings are smaller too so it could promote quicker interactions, but the Bellator at or and a few other rings are slightly larger with smaller athletes, but doesn't detract any of the fun of the match. If all it takes to make you less invested inrounds is slightly less interactions, then I don't think there's much that could be said other than be patient.

Boxing and UFC arenas have no verticality though which is an important distinction. Minorly increasing / decreasing the area in a flat terrain is inconsequential, I agree with you. However, altering the structure of arenas changes not only the frequency of interactions but the circumstances. In UFC it's harder to get cornered because the actual shape of the stage is different, not just it's size. In boxing rings it's easier to corner somebody.

So while I would agree with your sentiments in fighting games like Street Fighter where there is no verticality to the terrain, Smash is a platform fighter with varied terrain. The terrain layout is more important than the size.

So when I mention that you can't challenge campers on KJ64 or UCT without full hopping, or the camper being able to escape to an equally defendable position, I do so because A) big stages already have less interaction to begin with, and B) vertical distance essentially takes up more space because the characters move slower (bigger commitment). It's why many players prefer the common platform layout. The thesis of my point is KJ64 and UCT aren't fun because they're slow. And to a lesser degree, campers are rewarded too much. To me it defeats the risk involved in camping.

Camping is an inevitable thing in all facets of sports as long as time is involved. What people underrate is the mental fortitude someone needs to successfully time someone out. Not many have it, and I don't think the sanctioning of KJ 64 is gonna make en masse people to get it.

The problem: if you are one of the few who have the mental fortitude to camp and timeout, KJ64 is heavily skewed in your favor. I appreciate camping more than you probably think, but I dont appreciate the mental fortitude it takes to hop between KJ64's top platforms in safety.

Camping is about being elusive and the mental fortitude it takes to be elusive. I think it's fair to say I appreciate camping and timeouts on small stages where it takes skill opposed to on huge stages with multiple positions of safety where it's brain dead easy.

I feel like we both have all the facts, we just fundamentally disagree on what we want out of the game. And I respect that.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Speaking of Bayonetta, who does she actually lose to?

anyone that can be effective while still being played lame as hell

 

[BananaBake]

anyone that can be effective while still being played lame as hell

Do you have any specific examples?

 

[Chuva]

Oh how his Bowser analysis pissed me off.

Oh good, I thought I was the only one.

To be fair, that kind of analysis only reiterates a big stigma when people debate Bowser's matchups (and even Bowser in general): they focus almost exclusively on his disadvantageous state and rarely take into account any positive traits of the character.

I've lost count of how many times, in this very thread, the Bowser matchup discussion is reduced to "lol he is combo food and can't land, therefore it's a good matchup for my character". Frankly, that's as insightful as saying "my character beats Mac, just backthrow him off the ledge": it's a very reductionist view that ignores the juncture of the character's pros and cons.

By that logic, every character beats Bowser, because anyone can juggle him and do Sakonoko-level combos on him for free. Rarely someone cares to mention how your character intends to play the neutral game against his solid pokes, how dangerous it is for your character to attempt SH approaches against his Pivot Grab and OoS Whirling Fortress, what your character is gonna do when he corners you and proceeds to frame-trap you with Jab1, what do you do when he has rage and you can't afford to trade against him etc.

Bowser's weaknesses are very outlined and impossible to minimize, but should also be measured with other elements: we're still talking about a character with good ground speed that can rack almost 30% of a single grab and can still confirm into 70-80% kills even after the nerf.

 

[Tri Knight]

Would you please care to mention the kill confirms that are better than Pikachus on top tiers? If so, I would also like that you do a list of them from best to worst

Well personally I don't think Pikachus are bad at all. In fact, i dont think Pikachu is bad. But I was just answering why people think he is bad. People seem to base his viability off whether his throw can always lead to thunder, which I should mention is stupid in my opinion... Sounding a little defensive there, bud.

 

[L9999]

http://oddshot.tv/shot/vgbootcamp-2016032304730454

Even though it's a rage quit I found this moment telling of the how a lot of people feel when fighting bayonetta.

I hope this isn't where our meta is going

Continuing with Ice Climbers comparisons, this is the kind of thing people do when they get wobbled. Either they unplug their controller or they just watch with a hopeless sad face.

 

[BananaBake]

Continuing with Ice Climbers comparisons, this is the kind of thing people do when they get wobbled. Either they unplug their controller or they just watch with a hopeless sad face.

I swear Bayonetta's Zero-to-Deaths have a way similar feeling. Once you're in it, it's already too late. Yeah sure, maybe you could DI out of it, but she has options for all of the options you have. Sometimes you just have to hope they slip up or you mindgame them hard enough you can get out

 

[Trunks159]

So who got nerfed harder, or

Spoiler

...maybe it was VoiD?O_o

 

[Pazx]

Well, it might be banned once people realize that its "large blast zones" are a complete and utter fallacy and that the stage's blast zones are far shorter than what they believe. Like seriously, Duck Hunt has the lowest vertical blast zone of any stage in the game period, not including any stages with platforms that rise. That tree allows for extremely absurd deaths at extremely low damages from death combos or kill throws. Then you have the edges which can also do the same.

Considering that earlier in one of the older Competitive Impressions, I said that Link could kill Diddy Kong with an F-Smash at 26% at the edge. It can still happen, and things like that suck like hell. Of course, it was rage that helped, but it still doesn't mean Diddy could die from Link's F-Smash (and since nothing's been changed between the attack and Diddy's weight, the damage could be the same).

Oh, and can I mention that this stage would absolutely be great for Bayonetta since she can literally just do her Smash Direct combo and you're done if she gets you at the tree? And let's not forget circle camping...like we need that kind of stage even more.

How this stage is still legal I won't understand; I know the benefits of the stage, but I can't deny the disadvantages.

Hi, Larry, It's been awhile. I don't respond to your posts anymore (and I encourage others to do the same) but this is blatant misinformation that was disproved in 2014. I will admit that the top of the tree is in fact very close to the ceiling, but it's not considerably closer to the ceiling nor is it as easily accessible as platforms such as Town and City's highest platform, or even Dreamland's for that matter.

Duck Hunt does not have a low ceiling, nor are the side blast zones small or unusually close to the ledge.

Duck Hunt has the same ceiling height as Omegas, Final Destination, Smashville, Dream Land, Pokemon Stadium 2, and even Delfino's main travelling platform. Battlefield has a higher ceiling, while Town and City has a lower ceiling. Lylat Cruise's ceiling is the same or very close to the same as FD/SV/DL/DH but it's hard to say it's exactly the same due to tilting.

From center stage, Duck Hunt has the largest horizontal blast zones in the game, tied with Battlefield and Dreamland (as well as UCT, Kongo Jungle and Miiverse for some not-so-legal stages).

From the ledge, Duck Hunt has the same distance to the horizontal blast zone as Final Destination, Smashville, Town and City and Lylat. According to Hitaku, DH actually has LARGER horizontal blast zones measured from the ledge than these stages. Your forward Smash on Diddy Kong isn't going to kill any earlier on Duck Hunt than these other stages.

Sources: one two three

Please don't bother replying if you're going to disagree because you "think" Link kills earlier on Duck Hunt than other stages, this has been proven false many times.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

Well personally I don't think Pikachus are bad at all. In fact, i dont think Pikachu is bad. But I was just answering why people think he is bad. People seem to base his viability off whether his throw can always lead to thunder, which I should mention is stupid in my opinion... Sounding a little defensive there, bud.

Sorry, with so much hate on the rat I confused what you meant to say dude, but I do agree with you, too much enphasis on uthrow thunder, and it is actually pretty easy to land it with a little prediction (in my case)

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I would explain why before you get an infraction.

He can Shadow Sneak out of any combo string to the top.

 

[Flux0r]

Updates on the midwest bayonetta scandal: two different venues in michican have banned bayonetta. Rip

— Vivian (@Vivaciously7) March 23, 2016

Questionable sources aside, is this just a knee-jerk reaction or a sign of the future metagame?

Do people just suck at the match-up? She's definitely a scrub stomper, thats for sure.

 

[DungeonMaster]

So who got nerfed harder, or
...maybe it was VoiD?O_o

Looks to me like they both have to do *gasp* crazy unsafe things like down smash, and up-smash now. How will they ever bear the burden of this new existence?

 

[Shady Shaymin]

All these comparisons of bayonetta to ic's are scaring me. If she is anywhere near as good as they were, things don't bode too well for the current meta. Cloud doesn't seem to show signs of being necessarily broken (not in singles anyway) but he is still pretty ridiculous in his own right.

If every time you make plans, your girl cancels on you, you have to ask yourself: am I dating a person, or am I dating Cloud's entire aerial moveset?

 

[TurboLink]

Looks to me like they both have to do *gasp* crazy unsafe things like down smash, and up-smash now. How will they ever bear the burden of this new existence?

Meta Knight has forward smash.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Updates on the midwest bayonetta scandal: two different venues in michican have banned bayonetta. Rip

— Vivian (@Vivaciously7) March 23, 2016

Questionable sources aside, is this just a knee-jerk reaction or a sign of the future metagame?

Do people just suck at the match-up? She's definitely a scrub stomper, thats for sure.

It's super knee jerk reaction.

 

[Mario766]

Updates on the midwest bayonetta scandal: two different venues in michican have banned bayonetta. Rip

— Vivian (@Vivaciously7) March 23, 2016

Questionable sources aside, is this just a knee-jerk reaction or a sign of the future metagame?

Do people just suck at the match-up? She's definitely a scrub stomper, thats for sure.

Two?

For a real source


One tournament, a bi-monthly, banned Bayonetta. This was not a Pulse, aka the main tournament hosts, tournament. This is a small ass thing that doesn't matter.


I'm a MI player, there's your source.

 

[Big-Cat]

Oh good, I thought I was the only one.

To be fair, that kind of analysis only reiterates a big stigma when people debate Bowser's matchups (and even Bowser in general): they focus almost exclusively on his disadvantageous state and rarely take into account any positive traits of the character.

He has positive traits? I know Zelda has positive traits, but Bowser? What is this madness?

If there's one thing for sure though, Bowser's bad matchups become EXTRA bad on Wifi. Almost unwinnable even.

 

[Ulevo]

Can someone intelligent please enlighten me as to how Bayonetta is supposed to be a problem when she has run speed tied at 28-30 with Mario and Ryu, the 2nd worst roll in the game, relies on pokes in neutral that are frame 7 at best on non-disjoints, has poor throw follow ups and loses to shield, and relies on a standard combo that can be SDI'd?

I know how dumb people sound when they talk about a character that can actually 0-death, so I am hesitant to talk about Bayonetta when I do not main the character, but these are not attributes of a character that I would consider ban worthy, or even the best.

 

[sedrf]

I guess people gotta adapt or ride it out until later patches.

 

[L9999]

So who got nerfed harder, or

Spoiler

...maybe it was VoiD?O_o

Something I noticed from this set is how Void was trying to do something with down Throw, no Fair strings, only Down Throw ->Nair-> read, and because Sheik's kill options have been butchered the only way he could kill was by Smash reads, and Sheik's Smashes are lame and need to be charged to do anything of worth. Also, a lot more grenades (mindgaming? fishing the kill?) and no needles. Meanwhile, Tyrant was being his usual self, using all of MK's moveset to his advantage. Void is still good, he is just playing with a butchered character, and Tyrant is playing a character that was not butchered, becuase all the stuff he was doing MK could do it before, but people were all nuts for the ladder combo. Losing it the way it was made NO difference at all. Sheik's nerfs do matter, MK couldn't get away with this kind of gameplan unless the player outplayed Sheik. Look the infamous Leo videos, he sandbagged against Mr. R and Vinnie to read them, then proceed to outplay them. That's how he won. That's how LEO PLAYS. MK never beated Sheik or anything.....K, rant over. Just thoughts on this whole Sheik-MK thing.

 

[[BROF]]

Youd think that people learned from brawl MK that banning things just doesnt work. If Bayo is broken (which can be argued she is) either pick her up or suck it up.

 

[sedrf]

In 3 months, good players sick of losing to "bad" Bayonettas will pick her up In 2020 when we wanna ban Banjo in Smash 5: "BAYO TOOK SKILL"

 

[2fast]

http://oddshot.tv/shot/vgbootcamp-2016032304730454

Even though it's a rage quit I found this moment telling of the how a lot of people feel when fighting bayonetta.

I hope this isn't where our meta is going

WALL OF TEXT INCOMING:

I'm gonna drop a story here:

Back during the first week of bayo, I went to xanadu and used her for most of it. I actually knocked Osiris out the tourney with Bayo to which he was openly frustrated about her (he didn't DI any of her combos). After the tourney ended I sat down and played Osiris with Bayo in friendlies for 3 hours as my initial thought going into those were that I wanted to teach him the MU but as soon as those friendlies started all I heard was "this character is so broken", "smash 4 was fine before she was released", "I'm going back to melee" ect. To which I just ended up sitting quietly for those 3 hours as the salt poured out from him. Its unfortunate because he is a solid player but he did not seem willing to want to learn how to play against her.

I may not mind some cloud and bayo nerfs as they both are a little silly but as someone who came from brawl with MK, it hurts my soul to see people act like this over a smash 4 character as no smash 4 character comes close to brawl MK. Its not just Osiris who acts this way toward Bayo in the community either.

She could use nerfs as her strengths do out way her weaknesses but I strongly urge people to sit down with someone who plays bayo and actively learn about her weaknesses that she does have because they CAN be taken advantage of. However a lot of players don't seem to be willing to do this and it's true that you can't run at bayonetta like you're fighting a normal character because she's not a normal character.

Like I said, I'm all for some nerfs but the community is being ripped to shreds by bayo cuz a lot of people dont understand her weaknesses that she does have. Sure she'll still be hard to fight but there is hope in defeating her. It hurts my old brawl soul to see this community right now because I remember how small the brawl community became

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Youd think that people learned from brawl MK that banning things just doesnt work. If Bayo is broken (which can be argued she is) either pick her up or suck it up.

The reason why that didn't work in Brawl was because the ICs were just as oppressive they weren't willing to ban the ICs as well for... w/e reason.

The first major tournament in Texas to ban MK (before ICs took over that type of Brawl meta)? Wildly successful, had people from northern states coming down to play, great character variety.

Bayo is not at the point where I'd be saying ban her or particularly close to that point. But if we get to the point where she's that oppressive/centralizing: ban her without a second thought, do it before too many people would leave because they've poured all of their time into that one character and don't feel as if they could switch over to another character.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I guess people gotta adapt or ride it out until later patches.

Pretty much this. are probably still very much under the radar so I wouldn't be surprised if they got a little sprinkle of Sakurai's magic fairy dust by EVO. Still, and getting BTFO and a good amount of jank being fixed in the last patch was well needed and I still think it's too early to say has ultimately replaced Sheik. In the long run, I'm more concerned about just because his pick up and play reward is hilariously skewed compared to the rest of the cast.

 

[Solfiner]

If Bayonetta really TRULY is that oppressive, then she is getting the nerf hammer NO questions asked. The dev team has showed time and time again that they are completely willing to tone down ridiculous/silly stuff.

Either way complaining day in and day out is not healthy, so if she really ruins the game that much just drop it or something I guess.

 

[Amadeus9]

Why ban stuff in a game that is being actively patched? It just doesn't make sense. Plus, the results aren't even there. I hate Bayo as much as any other guy but damn, keep it real.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I did say "if".

We don't know how many more patches there will be, we don't know what the end result will be. So the situation is still possible. I'd just rather the community be willing to act if that situation does ultimately end up happening instead of going "just figure it out better" for years and then attempting to correct solution too late.

 

[Blobface]

If Bayonetta Witch Twists your shield, is it feasible to jump OoS and punish her?