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Just to be clear, this was a completely direct question.
Yeah, i take some issue with thr interaction thing. From the way MVC, a lot of anime fighters, and to a lesser extent Tekken work, people want crazy , high damage conversions for all their work in footsies and spacing wars.
DI doesnt mean you eradicate Bayo death combos. It just turns it into a multitude of 50/50s.
I think Mario's USmash is pretty absurd (not unjustified or a move that I would change, but it is. Frame 9 with head invul, a nice hitbox + low recovery, kills off the top which means stage positioning does not matter at all which is SUPER important) but he also has the added benefit of a grab game, better ways to threaten shields, an overall more well rounded gameplan (Mario's kill power isn't as explosive but he boasts better overall frame data than Sheik and has a stock cap kill throw that's really good, honestly. Being able to threaten a shield AND kill off of that is incredible), and you don't have to practice anything honestly. I love me some Mario because he is 100% fundamentally rewarding, and there's a character like this in every fighting game basically (whether or not they're good can vary, but they usually are.) Cloud is the better character between the two but I think Mario is more conventional and easier to explain and use, in practice.
Even my DK main training partner is able to get out of my Bayo combos if he pays attention to my possible followups and DK is ****ing huge.This is a post I wrote on the banning Bayo thread (trust me, it talks mostly about her design and very little about banning her):
"Bayonetta's poor design is just another testament to Sakurai's flawed understanding of competitive play. Players who are competitively avid of fighting games don't want long, flow-chart combos; they're looking for interactions. Because that's the idea in the first place: a good fighting game is one full of interactions. Bayonetta shuts down the whole cast in her advantage with highly damaging combos that are very difficult to escape; the minimal interaction with the opponent goes against the design philosophy of a good fighting game.
As a player, I should NEVER be in a situation where I might as well just put down the controller for the same outcome. If a player doesn't SDI the first hit of Witch Twist, that's at least 30% damage, and at most death. If the player gets caught in Witch Time, all they can do is watch as they take massive damage and potentially die. Bayonetta doesn't 0-death with any consistency, and the misconception that she does needs to be put to rest. The issue is that so much of her damage is guaranteed, while the rest of the cast has to go for reads to extend their strings for a similar damage output.
Let's take a look at Melee, a hallmark in the design of fighting games, and video games in general. It's common knowledge that Melee's engine allows for a much more varied and extensive combo game than in Smash 4. What makes Melee's combo-friendly system so intriguing is that the attacker is always forced to interact with their opponent due to DI. Good DI saves you, bad DI kills you. DI can mitigate damage from combos, but it can also create combos that should have never worked if the attacker reads such DI. In Melee, Captain Falcon on Final Destination has certain 0-death combos on Marth that only work given a specific DI from the Marth player. I, and many other players, love the DI mechanic, because it prevents us from just sitting and watching ourselves get helplessly carried across the screen, and it makes combos interactive rather than brain-dead.
This is where Bayonetta's design fails. She's designed around combos, not interactions. People like to say "learn to DI/SDI," but that doesn't have much of an effect overall, and still doesn't solve the core issue with her design. Let me elaborate:
1) DI in Smash 4 simply isn't as strong as it was in Melee (and works a bit differently)
2) Bayonetta's combos are predominantly vertical, which effectively limits the opponent's DI'ing capacity; remember MK and ZSS ladders?
That brings up another point:. Call me biased towards my main, but I find it relevant considering we're talking about ladder combos. "No one was really complaining about MK and ZSS, not as much as with Bayonetta. They should learn to DI," is what I see some people saying in Bayonetta's defense. The truth is, MK's and ZSS's ladders weren't as problematic as Bayonetta's. (They still exist, but are much weaker, for those who are still unsure). But why?
Pre-patch, outside of the 30-40% range, you would fight MK in essentially the same way as you'd fight any other character. Outside of his ladder, MK dealt on average 15-20% in guaranteed damage off combos, and the same applied to ZSS--this meant that outside of their death set-ups, their damage output was on par with the rest of the cast. Such does not apply to Bayonetta. She has potential KO's at any percent, and if she does not KO, then she's landing on average 30-40% in guaranteed damage regardless of your current percentage, which is beyond the overall damage output of everyone else.
Bayonetta is a problem. Whether or not she really is ban-worthy cannot be truly decided as of yet. Personally, I prefer pre-patch Sheik to Bayonetta. Yes, I prefer fighting against a character who hard-countered my main rather than a character with whom my main arguably goes even. And there's a very good reason: players found a way to circumvent Sheik's intended KOing issue; Bayonetta is centered around such overly rewarding set-ups, and is a problem at the core of her design.
Sakurai has proven already that he has a misguided understanding of competitive play, and Bayonetta provides more proof. 1.1.6 (if it does happen) will nerf Bayonetta, but I highly doubt it will solve the heart of the problem. Tell me, how did the nerfs in 1.1.5 affect Bayonetta? In no major way. Witch Twist is one of the best moves in the game, Witch Time is by far the best counter, Heel Slide was already unsafe pre-patch, and her up and forward smashes are still powerful--quite a lot was changed, but it all had little effect because her core gameplay is still the same. Fixing Bayonetta requires Sakurai to completely overhaul her design, and that is highly unlikely."
Well Swordfighter has his Tilt Chakram into F-Smash/Hero's Spin/Power Thrust. That is pretty much all "confirms" that Swordfighter has. And getting Tilt Chakram isn't that easy tho. Miis have hard time killing in general due to lack of reliable kill moves. Most of Swordfighter's kills come from edgeguarding *cough* Dair -> Footstool *cough*. Also Guest Sized Swordfighter's D-Throw -> Uair stops working at kill % so yeah. This only works on smaller sizes.
Looks like he managed to sdi/di out then the bayo player decided to do a single fair instead of the smart option (uair, fast fall)Oh really? Is that why this happened?
Typical BS from a Bayo main. Do you guys ever quit?
Das Koopa
and the pie chart makes it easy to read and understand.
Disagree, Bayo is better at lower levels. Cloud still thrives off fundamentals, he's not safe without spacing, bar perhaps when using full hop dair. His recovery is also a serious liability if you are not good. You need to know how to Smash to win with him. You might beat someone above your skill level because you can play quite effectively as Cloud without doing anything special, but you still need some degree of fundamentals to get stuff done. You need to know what you are doing.
I haven't done a complete breakdown but it doesn't seem as though there's a huge dropoff from Top 16 to Top 8, and Euro/Japanese tournies definitely have a greater share of higher placing Bayonettas just by glancing at the results. I figure that in spite of her few wins, she still frequently makes Top 4s at regionals, and is the most consistent character to do so overall, resulting in her having the highest value.That's awesome info
Have a quick question, though, did Bayonetta get the "top value" due to a lot of people using her and placing top 16 but not top 4? Or is her value due to how well a handful of people are placing with her? I would imagine it's both to some extent, but outside of Japan (and I'm not sure of European tournaments, tbh) she doesn't seem to get first very often.
DFW. I don't have time to attend tournies atm but I'll probably start sometime this summer.
Like your attitude is any better.
You need to know how to read basic DI/SDI and you need to have at least some handle on Smash as a game to pick her up. You can't just spend a couple hours in the lab and instantly know how to beat everyone better than you with her combos. Yes, she is OP but, no, she is not a character you can pick up in one sitting. Cloud is (you can definitely pick her up super fast, though. Just not as fast as Cloud, in my opinion).
Read the rest of the post. By the way, you are super mature.
Don't ask for too much effort now, a lot of the rebuttals to Ghostbone have been really lackluster and it's saddening. Of course it's also gone into player hate because what else would happen?
What does maturity have to do with your incessant complaining and hopeless demeanor
So it is both, it seems like: a lot of people doing really well. I wonder if that is more evidence to the whole "carrying players" thing. Though I don't believe it when it comes to people like Pink Fresh, Salem, AeroLink, 9B and some others.
Ayyy, same. Do you enter as Das Koopa? I'll keep an eye out for you at shockwaves, though I'm leaving in June to Houston.
xander is a living example of the dunning-kruger effect
It's cute how you sign every post.
It's hilarious how people still think that Mario is the easiest character in the game. Why not go play him yourself? You'll quickly find out that Cloud is far easier than he is. The only thing that's easy about Mario is that you can spam Smash attacks. It's sad that this opinion is still perpetuated just because Mario is the "standard" character.
Watch out! Another degenerate Bayo main incoming!
I actually do LOL. Go ask anyone in my circle of friends, I don't practice the character at all (the last time I even sat down with him extensively was 3-4 months ago when I tried to lab out gimmicky landing Dair > Dsmash kill confirms) and he's still arguably my most consistent character, even far above my Cloud. I highly doubt it's because I play Doc, the only thing really similar between them is attack range and frame data.
Okay, I agree with you there. The character is just plain incredible but that can be said about some of the other top 10s as well. I still feel like Cloud is easier to learn but to each their own.
In regards to vectoring, I think its removal was the single best buff/adjustment that Mario ever got. Consistency is awesome and it also made his USmash hit like a beast.
This is why I play Mario. He's so dang fun and satisfying. This is how he always should have been instead of his... unfortunate Brawl iteration. I was so excited when I realized he was really good in Smash 4.
I think she definitely has carried specific players but none of the ones you listed qualify imo: they all have histories with the series in a way that show they're good players.
I'll sign up as Barnard's Loop most likely
Xandercosm
mentioned something like, "Bayonetta is boring to fight because she encourages you to be defensive, wait for an opportunity, then go in and get a couple of hits before retreating," as if this were some terrible fate for a fighting game.
You clearly don't understand what I was trying to say. Bayonetta, just like Brawl ICs, promotes campy play where the opponent tries as hard as they can to play keep away until she gets up to KO percents and then start fishing. That is INSANELY boring. I don't know if you ever payed attention to Brawl but, if so, do you remember how people would fight the ICs? You were forced to run for your life while spamming here and there (which is why Tink was a semi-counter to ICs). That is incredibly boring and results in a super flowchart fighting game where people live up to high percents. From there, you just wait for who gets the first hit at, like 150% for the win.A couple of pages ago
Mario pretty much goes even with all three of them. As a Mario main, I can't resist saying you should pick him up.
I have to question the logic behind meaning to make Bayonetta weak to bait and punish, and then make side B bounce away on shield.
TTTTTsd
and am looking forward to the day patches get totally decommissioned so that I don't have to listen to "I WANT TOON LINK NERFED HIS CAMPING IS SO OPPRESSIVE", I also think the balance patches so far have been fantastic and think the dev team is doing a great job. And for a dev team that says time and time again that balance patches aren't just for us, the competitive scene, they're doing a fantastic job of being able to have the game they envisioned whilst catering to our wants and ideals.
How is playing keep away and then trying to score the kill at high percents evident of "flowchart' gameplay? How is camping any sign that a game involves no thinking (which is what flowchart implies)?
