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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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C0rvus

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Mega Man definitely has the advantage over Meta Knight, btw. And a slight one over Corrin. That's all I can really say, but that is the MU spread of a high tier character if I've ever seen one. Mega Man is possibly the Brawl Diddy of Smash 4.
 

Jexulus

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Mega Man is possibly the Brawl Diddy of Smash 4.
Those lemons don't quite have the stage control that Diddy's banana factory had back in Brawl, and Mega's recovery is WAY better, too.

I see what you're going for, but I'd have to see more of an explanation before I buy the analogy, 'cuz Mega shoots the wrong kind of fruit, fam.
 
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C0rvus

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Fair enough, I figured it was a pretty straightforward comparison. We always kinda figured "Yeah, this character is pretty good" but a couple players come along, having conquered the character's nuances and implemented some advanced item techniques, and they start putting out impressive results. The character becomes a staple high tier that not many players excel with. Also, both are pretty potent at space control, and have item tricks that confirm into kills. Idk. I don't think Mega Man is top tier, but he's hella good.
 

blackghost

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Downthrow fairs looking like a decent kill confirm


The truth is people dont know where the hell to put them because no one uses them.
and Why agian does no one use the? I believe it's because they get cropped on at tournaments and by tos. how ask dapuffster why he isn't playing this game much. 3 characters utterly ignored for petty reasons.
 

Frihetsanka

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and Why agian does no one use the? I believe it's because they get cropped on at tournaments and by tos. how ask dapuffster why he isn't playing this game much. 3 characters utterly ignored for petty reasons.
Yeah, seems a lot of TOs go for the "Oh wow, that custom up-B for Brawler is really strong, I guess we should ban custom Miis instead of learning to adapt".
 

Yoshister

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I think the main reason Miis are banned is because you actually have to make them before you can actually use them (At the very least one for each class, more if you want customs too). Considering you'd have to do this for every Wii U at the venue, it takes a pretty long while. Considering how unpopular they are anyway, TOs don't see a reason to bother. I'm not saying it's a good (or bad) reason, but this seems pretty likely to me.


EVO (2016) couldn't even be bothered to have the entire bloody legal stagelist on each Wii U. :V
 
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Yikarur

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Player create their own Mii's from Guest Mii's presented on every console. The TO does not have any extra work with it.
 

Mr. Johan

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Brawler custom UpB is only a real issue when its the tiny size Brawler that's using it, right? I thought people were against it because small Brawler has the speed to mix it up, followup, and space however he wants with the move.

Does default size make the move any less ubiquitous?
 
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Yikarur

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Tiny Brawler is ridiculous. Guest size is ok but has still low% kills if you don't play the match-up correctly. His Helicopter Kick is a kill move but sacrifices recovery for power. It's well designed except for a tad too high base knockback which results in early kills if hit off-stage.
The move is not better than flip jump, shuttle loop, witch twist, Cross Slash, etc.
 
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dakotaisgreat

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Tiny Brawler is ridiculous. Guest size is ok but has still low% kills if you don't play the match-up correctly. His Helicopter Kick is a kill move but sacrifices recovery for power. It's well designed except for a tad too high base knockback which results in early kills if hit off-stage.
The move is not better than flip jump, shuttle loop, witch twist, Cross Slash, etc.
Well sadly people want 50/50 1111 so he might as well be deleted from the game and not count.

I hope to god this is addressed in smash 5. With the current rules that most of the TO's in the USA stand by, Mii's are not worth discussion and probably never will be. Probably a huge reason why none of them were significantly buffed is because the powers that be didn't expect people to be so anal about this crap.

I wanted to main Mii Gunner before the game came out and I still would, but this community has absolutely destroyed any incentive for me to ever do so.
 

EternalFlare

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Those lemons don't quite have the stage control that Diddy's banana factory had back in Brawl, and Mega's recovery is WAY better, too.

I see what you're going for, but I'd have to see more of an explanation before I buy the analogy, 'cuz Mega shoots the wrong kind of fruit, fam.
He might be talking about both character's advance techniques which are similar.

In Brawl Diddy had a very solid glide toss which combined with his 2 bananas let him do extended banana combos all across the stage. He also had a z drop single banana infinite setup.

In Smash 4 Megaman has a super glide toss. It's very hard to do consistently but will propel him heavily across the stage and lets him confirm a metal blade into a bair kill at huge distances. He also has z drop footstool confirms on some characters.

So in that sense, the characters have some striking similarities.

But Brawl Diddy was definitely a much better character overall. Megman's pellet camping has nothing on Diddy's double banana fortress. One banana in front of him, another in his hand, him shooting peanuts...good luck getting in. Did I mention in Brawl bananas don't disappear on hit or shield and beat pretty much everything?

Megman's recovery is only better because of the removal of ledge hogging. If Megaman was in Brawl his recovery would definitely be worse than Diddy Kong's who could delay or charge his barrels far faster than in Smash 4 (even if you don't have as much control on the angle).

You'd simply grab the ledge, force him to recover high, react to it and swat him away. 1-3 iterations of this and he's likely far offstage without a jump and another ledge hog secures the stock. Whereas with Diddy his up B has a hitbox and he can charge it to delay it. This makes edge hogging a proficient Diddy quite difficult to time + he can always mix it up with side Bs.
 
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Mr. Johan

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Even with Brawl ledgehogging, Megaman could overcome someone being on the ledge after he UpBs. He can pseudo-footstool people out of UpB fall just like Sonic can.

It's something MMs may need to do more of, for the mixup potential and such.
 

Das Koopa

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weekend tournies of note that I'm aware of

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Revelation 2016 (Colorado)
 

EternalFlare

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Even with Brawl ledgehogging, Megaman could overcome someone being on the ledge after he UpBs. He can pseudo-footstool people out of UpB fall just like Sonic can.

It's something MMs may need to do more of, for the mixup potential and such.
Interesting idea. This would guard him from people just hanging on the ledge waiting for the UpB. However he'd still be susceptible to well timed ledge hogs where invincibility is gained just as he's recovering to the ledge. Footstools would not be possible in this instance. And Megaman's up B is probably slow enough to ledge hog on reaction.
 
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Nobie

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So just for kicks, I decided to compare some of the top up throws and compare the difference between killing Mario off the top platform vs. the main platform.

Long story short:

While Falco and Marth have the weaker of the Up Throws, the difference that height makes for their up throws is much bigger than the others.

ROB and Charizard have less difference, possibly to account for being able to land on top platforms.

Kirby has a bit of both, because that buff from way back was awesome.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UNqOH0eTVSRYQQTJdzQP4xe5jMpGM9WKp3XfAT3LBbk/edit?usp=sharing
 

Baby_Sneak

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Even though the falco player was clearly outplaying the Ryu player, falco sure seemed to have a strong punish game and other qualities in compensation for a sub-par neutral (cuz good buttons and bad mobility).
 

Djmarcus44

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I think the main reason Miis are banned is because you actually have to make them before you can actually use them (At the very least one for each class, more if you want customs too). Considering you'd have to do this for every Wii U at the venue, it takes a pretty long while. Considering how unpopular they are anyway, TOs don't see a reason to bother. I'm not saying it's a good (or bad) reason, but this seems pretty likely to me.


EVO (2016) couldn't even be bothered to have the entire bloody legal stagelist on each Wii U. :V
To add on to what Yikarur Yikarur said, it doesn't take very long to make a Mii Fighter. I know that it doesn't take me more than a minute to make a Mii, and I've seen videos where people make Miis in only 30 seconds. It can easily be done by any mii fighter main that plays on a Wii U without the mii that they want to use.
Well sadly people want 50/50 1111 so he might as well be deleted from the game and not count.

I hope to god this is addressed in smash 5. With the current rules that most of the TO's in the USA stand by, Mii's are not worth discussion and probably never will be. Probably a huge reason why none of them were significantly buffed is because the powers that be didn't expect people to be so anal about this crap.

I wanted to main Mii Gunner before the game came out and I still would, but this community has absolutely destroyed any incentive for me to ever do so.
If you want to main Mii Gunner, you can check out the Mii Gunner boards. There are some guides that have some useful information. Some notable Gunner players such as Flama, Chibo, Wii Twerk Trainer, and san also post some useful information about Gunner on the board.

Mii Gunner will probably be worth more discussion next year because Flama is planning on attending some major tournaments such as EVO 2017.
Why bother ranking a character that barely anyone knows the full potential? It would only serve as a way of making the few Mii mains cringe as, say, Gunner, would probably sit with the bottom tiers Zelda Dorf & Puff despite a strong neutral game, but since most people don't even know that because the character is very unpopular. The rarity & underdevelopped nature of the character makes it so that ranking them is very tough & it would be wiser to simply not rank them at all. How do you build the theory/potential of a character if you don't even know anything other than it's a zoner that has a fairly reasonable neutral game?
Speaking of Gunner, i'd be interested to see how Rom vs Kirihara went at Umebura 24. Still very much impressed by this victory & wondering how it went in terms of the neutral.
This is very true. For example, I am somewhat disappointed with the amount of misinformation that Smashwiki used to explain Gunner's position on the tier list (They claim that Gunner has trouble approaching even though Gunner has a decent initial dash speed, a frame 8 dash to shield, and a transcendent projectile that combos into many of Gunner's moves while being safe on perfect shield). While I would like to see Miis on a tier list, I would rather not see them on the tier list if the tier list maker doesn't really know about the characters.

By the way, Gunner's neutral is a top-tier neutral that is a strong contender for the best neutral in the game. Besides the approaching tools that I have already mentioned, Gunner also has great burst mobility with gundashing (RAR fair is a good approaching mixup that can get Gunner in close range quickly). Gunner also has charge blast to get opponents to approach, and good options to keep an opponent away (nair, bair, pivot ftilt, pivot fsmash, and pivot flame pillar). In CQC, Gunner has a frame 5 jab that can be jab canceled to get follow ups (Jab canceling can also make Gunner's jab decently safe on shield), a frame 5 up tilt that is a good anti-air option, and a frame 3 reflector that can get an opponent away from Gunner. Gunner also has a fast grab with good range (5th most range for a character with a frame 6 grab) and good follow ups (These follow ups are listed in the mii gunner true combo and follow up thread. Gunner also has some true combos out of a grab).

I haven't seen the match between ROM and Kirihara, but I know that Gunner's ground level fair is good against Rosalina because it outranges her move and her Luma, and it's low landing lag allows Gunner to punish Rosalina for using Gravitational Pull on it in close range.
 

FeelMeUp

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I'm going to need more information to prove that Gunner has a neutral that can be better than both Sheik's and Diddy's.
 

Wintermelon43

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Also what characters do you think are overrated or underrated ?
imo:
:4marth::4link: and to a lesser extent, :4corrin::4feroy::4drmario::4littlemac::4zelda:(Not joking) for overrated.

:4pacman::4duckhunt::4jigglypuff:(No joke):4kirby::4gaw::4megaman: for underrated.

This obvisualy isn't all, but the most under/overrated ones.

LET THE HATE COME IN!!!
 
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Ffamran

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So just for kicks, I decided to compare some of the top up throws and compare the difference between killing Mario off the top platform vs. the main platform.

Long story short:

While Falco and Marth have the weaker of the Up Throws, the difference that height makes for their up throws is much bigger than the others.

ROB and Charizard have less difference, possibly to account for being able to land on top platforms.

Kirby has a bit of both, because that buff from way back was awesome.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UNqOH0eTVSRYQQTJdzQP4xe5jMpGM9WKp3XfAT3LBbk/edit?usp=sharing
First question: are we factoring in Falco's laser or not? I'm asking this since it's kind of weird that according to your testing, Falco's killing later the higher he moves up on Dreamland's platforms. Wouldn't be surprising considering his U- and B-throws are the most inconsistent (kill) throws in Smash 4. If you don't factor in the laser, then his throw isn't even strong... The laser itself isn't strong either and it's just because of how far up it hits that adds enough knockback to push you past. Maybe Lucas or Zelda's U-throw should have been used instead of Falco's.

Also, with DI, don't some of the tested throws get murdered like Charizard, Kirby, and maybe ROB's?


Even though the falco player was clearly outplaying the Ryu player, falco sure seemed to have a strong punish game and other qualities in compensation for a sub-par neutral (cuz good buttons and bad mobility).
It helps that Omnaoto wasn't being stupid like most players who just bumrush Ryu. Why... Why would you do that against a character with 5 anti-airs, 2 of which are invincible, heavy Utilt and Shoryuken, and none of them are slow anti-airs? And the fact he possesses an invincible poke, light Ftilt? Even without knowing exactly what Street Fighter is or what Ryu can do, but the fact people have been crying about his light Utilt, Shoryuken, whatever, probably means you shouldn't be charging in like a dumbass against Ryu. Oh, wait, history repeats itself and that happened with Bayonetta, Cloud, Corrin?, and Roy. Gee, I wonder why Roy landed all those sweet-spots? Oh, yeah, that's because people ran into him hoping they could bear hug him to death. Oh, and apparently, things never carry over and it's perfectly fine to believe Mario's Up Smash which had invincibility since at least Melee won't have invincibility in Smash 4. Cue Mario headbutting everyone and people crying about how broken Mario's Up Smash is... I really, really should stop watching Arin rage over stuff because while funny, I think his rage just entered me and decided I'm going to be ****ing angry at everything... WHY DOES EVERY POST I MAKE END UP AS A WALL!? *slams door, leaves, and probably won't come back to comment on what Omnaoto was doing and/or what Hikage could have done*
 
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Emblem Lord

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Even though the falco player was clearly outplaying the Ryu player, falco sure seemed to have a strong punish game and other qualities in compensation for a sub-par neutral (cuz good buttons and bad mobility).
Dude did a block string into hadouken at the ledge.

Nothing to see here people.
 

Murlough

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Overrated::4pikachu::4ryu::4cloud2::4rob::4corrinf:

Underrated::4bowserjr::4duckhunt::4lucas::4pit::4mario:

(This is mostly based on what I hear in my scene. No, I'm not saying the overrated characters are bad.)
 
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EternalFlare

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Dude did a block string into hadouken at the ledge.

Nothing to see here people.
That was almost certainly an execution error. Block string - overhead = broken shield. But if you move the analog too fast without resetting to neutral it can register as a fireball motion instead. Used to happen to me all the time.

Also blockstring - fireball not being a safe thing in this game kind of saddens me given how it's pretty safe in most matchups in SF (you'll be negative but usually not enough for a punish)

Overrated:
:4cloud::4diddy::4ryu::rosalina::4olimar::4mario::4dk::4tlink:
Underrated:
:4fox::4luigi::4drmario::4corrin::4palutena::4robinm::4kirby::4bowserjr:
8 and 8 seemed like nice numbers.
I'm curious why you feel Diddy Kong is overrated given his top level results by several different players.

Just looking at his tool set it seems Diddy Kong has almost everything:

-damaging combos
-high mobility
-fantastic neutral
-great anti-juggle options (side B and B-reverse)
-arguably the best kill confirms in the game
-great OOS options (Banana, fair, bair, down tilt, roll)

Only real weakness for Diddy Kong is his recovery.
 
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Baby_Sneak

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Dude did a block string into hadouken at the ledge.

Nothing to see here people.
Lol maybe a tech error or something. He did have his moments of good play like oppressively cornering and approaching the falco player.

Also just a thought: lucario can be described as playing as Dan at low %s and then watching Dan slowly turn into akuma as you climb %s.
 

Emblem Lord

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That was almost certainly an execution error. Block string - overhead = broken shield. But if you move the analog too fast without resetting to neutral it can register as a fireball motion instead. Used to happen to me all the time.

Also blockstring - fireball not being a safe thing in this game kind of saddens me given how it's pretty safe in most matchups in SF (you'll be negative but usually not enough for a punish)



I'm curious why you feel Diddy Kong is overrated given his top level results by several different players.
It translates to the same thing.

A weakling

Proper control is a skill. If you lack that control then.....
 
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blackghost

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i need the people posting mario as overrated to present some evidence on why they feel that way.
as for mii gunner having a top tier neutral hes the only character in the game with a safe burst movement option, having a charge projectile that can be stored helps neutral a lot, he has villager fair, and a reflector. i dont know much about the character and i'm sure im missing a lot but seems at the very least above average neutral. he can put up a very viable wall and be a pain to catch.
(this is all under 1111) outside of the forced version mii gunner im jumps up the tier list and basically become better samus.
 

EternalFlare

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It translates to the same thing.

A weakling

Proper control is a skill. If you lack that control then.....
It's very easy to mess up with Ryu as his inputs overlap. Even the best players make execution errors.

I've seen countless matches where top players SDed for instance and not in a pressure situation.

So to dismiss a match because of something so relatively minor is a bit silly. Though I suspect you're trolling at this point.
 
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FeelMeUp

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i need the people posting mario as overrated to present some evidence on why they feel that way.
-1 mus vs almost every top tier(Ryu, Cloud, Marth[if you want to consider him one now], Sheik, Diddy, m2, rosa, etc) and has clear flaws that are very simple to exploit with a lot of good characters.
most people are letting mario do his own thing by jumping into him and getting usmashed, not respecting his grab enough, letting him recover for free, etc
the whole "mario is top 5" thing is really ridiculous in my opinion. he doesn't have a lot of the "who designed this" top tier qualities the other contenders like fox sheik diddy rosa and sonic do.
he's a respectable 7-9 though.
 

Nobie

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First question: are we factoring in Falco's laser or not? I'm asking this since it's kind of weird that according to your testing, Falco's killing later the higher he moves up on Dreamland's platforms. Wouldn't be surprising considering his U- and B-throws are the most inconsistent (kill) throws in Smash 4. If you don't factor in the laser, then his throw isn't even strong... The laser itself isn't strong either and it's just because of how far up it hits that adds enough knockback to push you past. Maybe Lucas or Zelda's U-throw should have been used instead of Falco's.

Also, with DI, don't some of the tested throws get murdered like Charizard, Kirby, and maybe ROB's?


It helps that Omnaoto wasn't being stupid like most players who just bumrush Ryu. Why... Why would you do that against a character with 5 anti-airs, 2 of which are invincible, heavy Utilt and Shoryuken, and none of them are slow anti-airs? And the fact he possesses an invincible poke, light Ftilt? Even without knowing exactly what Street Fighter is or what Ryu can do, but the fact people have been crying about his light Utilt, Shoryuken, whatever, probably means you shouldn't be charging in like a ******* against Ryu. Oh, wait, history repeats itself and that happened with Bayonetta, Cloud, Corrin?, and Roy. Gee, I wonder why Roy landed all those sweet-spots? Oh, yeah, that's because people ran into him hoping they could bear hug him to death. Oh, and apparently, things never carry over and it's perfectly fine to believe Mario's Up Smash which had invincibility since at least Melee won't have invincibility in Smash 4. Cue Mario headbutting everyone and people crying about how broken Mario's Up Smash is... I really, really should stop watching Arin rage over stuff because while funny, I think his rage just entered me and decided I'm going to be ****ing angry at everything... WHY DOES EVERY POST I MAKE END UP AS A WALL!? *slams door, leaves, and probably won't come back to comment on what Omnaoto was doing and/or what Hikage could have done*
Yeah, these are without DI. This weakens a bunch of the throws, but the differences should be similar.

This is all done with Falco's lasers hitting. I think it's what makes his throws different from others, allowing to do what other characters can't, but of course they come with their own issues.
 

TDK

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Also what characters do you think are overrated or underrated ?
Overrated: :4cloud2: :4ness: :4pikachu: :4olimar:

No clue on underrated.

Also, maybe it's my bias towards this character speaking, but why is :4corrinf: such an unpopular pick? She's a great character. Is it because she's DLC that came over a year after the game and also because she's a 6th FE character? Or is there something else?
 

FamilyTeam

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Erm, so, I've been thinking about picking up Roy, recently, since I like him as a character and as Smash fighter...
Where did they go so wrong with him?...
How do they screw up the same character twice? I mean, they screwed up Zelda 3 times but that's one character, now we have two getting this treatment?

Not 5 minutes ago, I was struck with his Sourspot Down Smash while I was at 160% using Lucina. I was close to the edge of the stage, and Roy had 110% on him.
The knockback was barely enough to make me go offscreen. I know that is just a drop in the ocean of problems Roy has, but... why? Was this intentional, is this supposed to be funny?

I want you guys to tell me realistically what's Roy's niche in this game. What does he do that no one else can do better than him? Also, I want you guys to tell me how 9 out of 10 people used to think he was High Tier a year ago. I was one of those people...

Sorry for venting like this... I didn't want to see a character like him so bad.

-1 mus vs almost every top tier(Ryu, Cloud, Marth[if you want to consider him one now], Sheik, Diddy, m2, rosa, etc)
Ayy, what?
I always thought Mario was even with Ryu, Sheik, Mewtwo and Rosa (nowadays, atleast) and actually won against Diddy +1. Marth is -1, I agree.
Where did you even get these numbers from?
 
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