Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Illuminose]

On a side note, does 9B still play this game? I think I remember Emblem Lord saying he's the type of player to abuse one specific (broken lol) option in neutral to convert into wins.

He should probably look into Pac-Man, because he has legit footstool infinites on everyone. I would be nice to see someone implement them in tournament.

Yes, he never stopped. His Mewtwo switch just didn't work. He's back to Bayonetta now though and I'd venture to guess that it'll be a good fit once again.

 

[Ffamran]

On a side note, does 9B still play this game? I think I remember Emblem Lord saying he's the type of player to abuse one specific (broken lol) option in neutral to convert into wins.

He should probably look into Pac-Man, because he has legit footstool infinites on everyone. I would be nice to see someone implement them in tournament.

3 week old video of his Mewtwo vs. Ri-ma's Toon Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWVmyt0jZXw.

Yes, he never stopped. His Mewtwo switch just didn't work. He's back to Bayonetta now though and I'd venture to guess that it'll be a good fit once again.

Why did he even switch to Mewtwo? If anything, he could keep Mewtwo and maybe even his rusty Ryu and play Bayonetta.

 

[FeelMeUp]

9b's M2 would probably be either spamming dtilt fair sb or trying to footstool infinite every character.
I think he should play Lucario though.

 

[MrListerTheSisterFister]

this isn't new
It's also possible with Fox's Uair.
But after doing it what does she proceed to get off of grab.

The opposite of what you stated which is, and I quote,

.
Hence me saying you guys are absolutely NUTS for not realizing how bad the Sheik and Diddy matchups are. Bayonetta simply cannot do ANYTHING to a Diddy/Sheik committed to camping in shield with banana or needlecamping halfway across the stage. The character's options are.....run up and grab...? Shop bair, maybe?

And the options she can do off of grab is the same as what Pink Fresh has been consistently doing which is either, f-throw and attempt to edge-guard, DI-mixup with either d-throw or up-throw to which she can follow up with either her aerials, up b, frame trap bullet arts up air (catching air dodges), or f-throw for the kill. Not to mention she can just grab for pure damage till they're in kill percent.

 

[teddystalin]

9b's M2 would probably be spamming dtilt fair

Ding ding ding, we have a winner

I'm honestly shocked he never picked up pre-patch MK.

 

[FeelMeUp]

The opposite of what you stated which is, and I quote,



And the options she can do off of grab is the same as what Pink Fresh has been consistently doing which is either, f-throw and attempt to edge-guard, DI-mixup with either d-throw or up-throw to which she can follow up with either her aerials, up b, frame trap bullet arts up air (catching air dodges), or f-throw for the kill. Not to mention she can just grab for pure damage till they're in kill percent.

That uh.....goes under the "run up and grab" category
and fthrow isn't killing anyone with a left thumb until 160-180

 

[Aaron1997]

While going though Tamisuma video's (online Japanese tourney) I found this. This is just recently

 

[Vermanubis]

At high level play Ganon probably has a some +/-3s; timing him out is effective. Raycalm or Verm would be better suited to answer that. IDK about Mac and other heavys though.

Edit, I can see Char having some.

Bayonetta, Villager and Rosa to name a few. As for timing him out, it's reasonably effective, but it's gotta be somewhere like Duck Hunt or T&C.

 

[LRodC]

A lot of people typically say that Diddy vs Mewtwo is bad for Mewtwo, and likely its worst MU. I don't disagree; however, they don't explain why. Why is it so bad for Mewtwo?

 

[Luco]

I believe you, and I have seen the match; it does look pretty damn difficult for Mewtwo. It makes sense why any M2 player would want a counterpick or at least a character with a better matchup.

My benefit of the doubt was: "Pac-Man vs Diddy may be a better matchup than Mewtwo vs Diddy." What I said doesn't imply that Pac-man wins vs Diddy, it simply states that Pac-man does better than Mewtwo against Diddy.



If he was so rusty, why did he even pick him??? Are you telling me that Abadango wasn't taking it seriously? How does this justify the MU being +2 or whatever for Pac?
Winning 1 game, with a "rusty" character, does not all of a sudden mean that Pac-man beats Diddy.

I'm asking because I don't know anything about this matchup; I'm asking for data as well as results. Don't just reference a set where he only won one game with said character, because the results say that he still lost 1-3 and I ain't buying that Pac beats Diddy.

Oh I don't doubt you. That was merely my critique. My point was just that, we're saying it might be a better match-up, but how much does that really mean if Mewtwo Diddy is so bad for Mewtwo?

No biggie, either way.

 

[verbatim]

Is Monkey Flip even that useful an option against Pac-Man?

Kind of. Diddy Kong's in a weird spot most top tiers aren't where monkey flip kick, despite it's notable cons, is his only safe way to launch hydrant. If he fsmash's the water will just push him back before the second hit comes out, dair is situationally useful but ultimately not a "go to" option, and the only other move he has that does 13% or more is peanut popgun explosion.

Could be worse though. Sheik's only options to launch hydrant are fsmash (if water doesn't stop second hit) and tipper up smash (only works if the hydrant's above her). To make matters worse insofar as I'm aware needles don't damage the hydrant at all (need to do more testing, they definitely CANNOT launch it in any situation ever though).

It's a ways back but just to jump start the conversation I will say that I agree with him that Pacman beats Donkey Kong/Captain Falcon/Sonic/Ryu/Diddy, and would probably meet him in the middle and say that Pacman goes even w/ Rosa, Sheik, and maybe Bayo. He honestly might slightly beat Sheik but I don't have enough data to make a compelling argument quite yet.

 

[ARGHETH]

To make matters worse insofar as I'm aware needles don't damage the hydrant at all (need to do more testing, they definitely CANNOT launch it in any situation ever though).

Wait, really? Because I just tried Needle --> BF (12%) and BF --> Needle in training mode and both launched it...

 

[verbatim]

Wait, really? Because I just tried Needle --> BF (12%) and BF --> Needle in training mode and both launched it...

Double checked, you are correct.

What I was thinking about is how the hydrant has a property wherein not every move can launch. Going to list things I've double verified for my sanity's sake.

Fox's lasers (I'm also fairly certain that they don't damage it either)
Some of the middle kicks in Fox's forward air
the middle of some rapid jabs
Diddy Kong's not fully charged peanut pop-gun

I think there's a damage/kb threshold that moves need to hit in order for the hydrant to count it as damage/be sent flying.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

While going though Tamisuma video's (online Japanese tourney) I found this. This is just recently

Anything specific about this video that makes it noteworthy to you?

 

[Yonder]

https://clips.twitch.tv/tourneylocator2/FancyWolverinePuppeyFace

I don't care who you main, as long as you're not Little Mac...GO OFFSTAGE AGAINST CLOUD.

I got so caught up in the hype, I missed the Luigi tea bagging after M2Ks first stock, LOL.

 

[Murlough]

https://clips.twitch.tv/tourneylocator2/FancyWolverinePuppeyFace

I don't care who you main, as long as you're not Little Mac...GO OFFSTAGE AGAINST CLOUD.

Even little mac can run off and sibe b the ledge if he times it properly.

I felt so bad once I realized that was M2K.

 

[DavemanCozy]

A lot of people typically say that Diddy vs Mewtwo is bad for Mewtwo, and likely its worst MU. I don't disagree; however, they don't explain why. Why is it so bad for Mewtwo?

From what I noticed watching Zinoto vs Abadango, Diddy's F-air was giving his Mewtwo the hardest time. It let Diddy safely avoid Mewtwo's d-tilt, f-air, even at one point it interrupted his confusion.

Honestly I don't know if I buy on this Diddy vs Mewtwo MU being the reason why Mewtwo is not solo-viable. That's why I was giving the benefit of the doubt above, because yea it looks bad but it doesn't look undo-able.

 

[Ffamran]

Double checked, you are correct.

What I was thinking about is how the hydrant has a property wherein not every move can launch. Going to list things I've double verified for my sanity's sake.

Fox's lasers (I'm also fairly certain that they don't damage it either)
Some of the middle kicks in Fox's forward air
the middle of some rapid jabs
Diddy Kong's not fully charged peanut pop-gun

I think there's a damage/kb threshold that moves need to hit in order for the hydrant to count it as damage/be sent flying.

Fox's Blaster and Falco's Burst Blaster -- yay, forgotten customs... -- don't have any knockback be it base, set, or growth, so they wouldn't even be able to launch anything... except for Wii Fit Trainer's Header ball. I swear that Fox's Blaster can launch her Header ball and I think it was after one patch... Maybe 1.1.0? It's probably a glitch, but I swear it happened and someone else did... Might have to dig that up for evidence.

For Fox's Fair, hits 3 and 4 do under 1%; hit 3 does 0.6% and hit 4 does 0.8%. It's also not uncommon for rapid jabs to do 0.X% instead of 1% per hit like Falco's does 0.4%. Problem with that is nobody really bothers to find rapid jab data since not only are they a ***** to find, but people just don't care despite rapid jabs being more problematic and more heavily affected by whatever their frame data is compared to in past games since you have to commit now unlike in past games where stopping a rapid jab was like a couple recovery frames to Smash 4's finisher with ~20 to ~30 recovery frames. Now, as for Diddy's Peanut Popgun, I have no idea. It apparently does 3%, but none of its hit angle or knockback is known.

One thing that can be said is that a move has to do at least 1%.

 

[Yonder]

From what I noticed watching Zinoto vs Abadango, Diddy's F-air was giving his Mewtwo the hardest time. It let Diddy safely avoid Mewtwo's d-tilt, f-air, even at one point it interrupted his confusion.

Honestly I don't know if I buy on this Diddy vs Mewtwo MU being the reason why Mewtwo is not solo-viable. That's why I was giving the benefit of the doubt above, because yea it looks bad but it doesn't look undo-able.

Keep in mind that the top level matches are showing it to be heavily in Diddy's favor too, Das Koopa i think made a post about how Diddy to Mewtwo wins is like 13-1, over 90%? That's not looking good for Mewtwo at all. I wish i could input on how Mewtwo loses but i haven't really played the matchup. Given how powerful Mewtwo is though, I think Mewtwo could close the gap a bit more...easily 60-40 for Diddy atm though. Things can change.

Or Mewtwo mains can secondary or pocket Luigi for Diddy...

 

[Sinister Slush]

Anything specific about this video that makes it noteworthy to you?

Even though not the person asking, a thing or two some of us don't use very much for Yoshi or do but never thought of just throwing it out in neutral instead of just shield pressure/break attempts.

Spoiler: To keep people that're tired of Yoshi posts from me away from their eyes

Jab-Grab every single time instead of Usmash or Dsmash kill attempts. Basically jab grab is a way to even get any shield attempts if they land after the jab or airdodge with 1 of 3 things happens once the Yoshi dthrows.

They react good to DI where they can jump Airdodge with absolutely nothing happening (best possible situation)
Mediocre reaction where they don't DI but just airdodge where there's a 50/50 of Yoshi landing Uair by reacting to AD and catching it, or they get eager and miss if they chose AD or they get it cause opponent guessed they'd empty hop waiting for an AD
Questionable DI and reaction where Yoshi is able to get the Dthrow Uair for the kill.

Other thing that caught my eye is just full hop Dairs, regardless of % or being on a platform for shield pressure/breaks, used to only land a few hits or even the last hit to pop them up into the air to chain into Uair. Free %


The rest of the match is a slow paced neutral based game which isn't too bad but those two things is something I'm willing to toy with the next time I try playing cause otherwise every single Yoshi is usually too aggressive and wants to just use dair aggressively instead of an option in neutral for small followups/tacking on small bits of % as per japan's style. Like just short hop dair straight into their face, force a shield and see if they get shield poked for a bit of % or lose a lot of their shield and pray they miss the punish, which isn't a good trade off.

Jab grab for 33% chances of a stock instead of us all being greedy and doing jab D/Usmash for the 50/50 which most of the time messes up for us anyways due to people having 130+% when we try it with them being able to DI away or popped up high enough to react with jump airdodge or simply airdodge, suffer landing lag, and still enough time to punish the cooldown of any of Yoshi's smash attempts.

 

[EternalFlare]

Can we discuss Smash 4's inconsistency? I've been thinking about it for a while and today Anti tweeted this out:
https://twitter.com/Anti/status/764197993570500608?lang=en
https://twitter.com/Anti/status/764148361624686592?lang=en

And I've always felt the same way when playing Brawl (and Melee/PM as well) as opposed to Smash 4. I feel if I'm better than someone in those games, I win rather easily, there's never any doubt and the skill gap really shows.

But with Smash 4, its like you have to respect almost every player no matter how good they are because they all have a realistic chance of beating you. I never feel safe and on the other hand, I never feel totally out of it either (I've taken games from players I would consider way better than me). I'm sure other people that play multiple Smash games can relate.

So I wonder what the primary factors are. Rage certainly is a factor (I've lost count of how many games I've won/lost thanks to rage cheese). 2 stock format might be another one but huge upsets have definitely occurred in 3 stock S4 tournaments as well.

The tier gap being smaller in Smash 4 could certainly play a role as well but I'm starting to doubt that. It's not like random MKs were beating top players in Brawl, or random Foxes with top players in Melee. Even if mid tiers were largely irrelevant in those games, we still should have been seeing upsets by top tier random players if that was the only difference.

Anyway, I have some more theories on what makes Smash 4 so volatile but I'm curious on other opinions first.

 

[Emblem Lord]

In Melee top tiers have such monstrous neutral and conversion that with a bit of training and dedication you can decimate mid level players and below easily.

Brawl its just tier gaps period. MK vs any random high tier is basically free. He has too many answers as do the other top tiers.

Smash 4 you nailed it. Set play is still present but far weaker. Recoveries are better. The game is 2 stock. Tiers are more congested and top tiers no longer have the most consistent confirms. And we can thank them Tekken bois for dat rage.

It's no ONE thing, but honestly the way the game itself was engineered. Remember Sakurai's philosophy? He never wanted anyone to feel like they dont have a chance. In Brawl he made tripping. A random factor. In this game its not some random arbitrary factor. It is embedded in how Nintendo has shaped the game. All the patches. The nerfs. The buffs. All of it. 2 stock certainly doesnt help.

 

[blackghost]

playing cloud for all his strengths is always vulnerable to the variables of offstage. this happens to cloud more than most other characters.
but if I had to choose I'd rather have smash 4 with its close tiers instead of melee or marvel 2 domination. win with your skill or exposing weaknesses not at character select.

 

[BananaBake]

Can we discuss Smash 4's inconsistency? I've been thinking about it for a while and today Anti tweeted this out:
https://twitter.com/Anti/status/764197993570500608?lang=en
https://twitter.com/Anti/status/764148361624686592?lang=en

And I've always felt the same way when playing Brawl (and Melee/PM as well) as opposed to Smash 4. I feel if I'm better than someone in those games, I win rather easily, there's never any doubt and the skill gap really shows.

But with Smash 4, its like you have to respect almost every player no matter how good they are because they all have a realistic chance of beating you. I never feel safe and on the other hand, I never feel totally out of it either (I've taken games from players I would consider way better than me). I'm sure other people that play multiple Smash games can relate.

So I wonder what the primary factors are. Rage certainly is a factor (I've lost count of how many games I've won/lost thanks to rage cheese). 2 stock format might be another one but huge upsets have definitely occurred in 3 stock S4 tournaments as well.

The tier gap being smaller in Smash 4 could certainly play a role as well but I'm starting to doubt that. It's not like random MKs were beating top players in Brawl, or random Foxes with top players in Melee. Even if mid tiers were largely irrelevant in those games, we still should have been seeing upsets by top tier random players if that was the only difference.

Anyway, I have some more theories on what makes Smash 4 so volatile but I'm curious on other opinions first.

I love the volatility of Smash 4. Adds plenty of interest to the scene. I had literally no idea who Kamemushi was, mainly cause I don't follow the Japanese scene (inb4 "WHY NOT DO IT MAN") until he went to EVO and wiped pretty much everyone with Mega Man. When has there been an upset that wasn't hype? Istudying vs Esam at BEAST 6, Asreil bodied M2K in less than 30 seconds, https://clips.twitch.tv/tourneylocator2/FantasticKoupreyVaultBoy, all make this game exciting as a spectator sport.

 

[EternalFlare]

In Melee top tiers have such monstrous neutral and conversion that with a bit of training and dedication you can decimate mid level players and below easily.

Brawl its just tier gaps period. MK vs any random high tier is basically free. He has too many answers as do the other top tiers.

Smash 4 you nailed it. Set play is still present but far weaker. Recoveries are better. The game is 2 stock. Tiers are more congested and top tiers no longer have the most consistent confirms. And we can thank them Tekken bois for dat rage.

It's no ONE thing, but honestly the way the game itself was engineered. Remember Sakurai's philosophy? He never wanted anyone to feel like they dont have a chance. In Brawl he made tripping. A random factor. In this game its not some random arbitrary factor. It is embedded in how Nintendo has shaped the game. All the patches. The nerfs. The buffs. All of it. 2 stock certainly doesnt help.

Regarding Brawl's tier gaps as I mentioned earlier that doesn't explain why no random Brawl top tier players ever emerged, took out a top player, then faded back into obscurity. You saw the same MKs, Icys, Diddies etc. on top in results, not random ones.

Tekken isn't the only modern fighter that introduced comeback mechanics (Marvel and SF anyone?). I think SF4 was probably the biggest influence as it helped revived the traditional fighting game genre and thus was no doubt a huge influence on later games.

I agree with the rest of your points.

Speaking of rage I'll never be a fan of any sort of comeback mechanics. And I say this as a Ryu secondary in S4 who's won more games thanks to cheesy rage DPs then I'd like to admit.

The way I see it, what makes comebacks interesting and hype is when they depend on the player's adaptation and clutch plays. When the game does it for you, it's meh. Not to mention it's outright silly to reward someone for getting outplayed in a competitive game. A Sheik with the opponent at 150+ and herself at 70 is probably equally in danger of dying as her opponent. Truly absurd.

I love the volatility of Smash 4. Adds plenty of interest to the scene. I had literally no idea who Kamemushi was, mainly cause I don't follow the Japanese scene (inb4 "WHY NOT DO IT MAN") until he went to EVO and wiped pretty much everyone with Mega Man. When has there been an upset that wasn't hype? Istudying vs Esam at BEAST 6, Asreil bodied M2K in less than 30 seconds, https://clips.twitch.tv/tourneylocator2/FantasticKoupreyVaultBoy, all make this game exciting as a spectator sport.

Well Kamemushi would be a bad example, he's extremely consistent in Japan as far as I know and many thought he'd put in serious work before Evo. Not exactly a random with no results prior to it.

But yeah, you should definitely check out the Japanese scene. They have so many hidden killers and I'd argue if it counts as a single region due to size, then it's the strongest region in the world.

Smash 4 upsets does make watching pools interesting at least. I haven't bothered checking out Melee pools in ages (or in general before top 16) because you already know who's going to make it.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I'm kinda interested in how we all perceive our mains so I'd like to ask.
Would it be annoying if with everyone's next post they attached a picture of their perceived matchup chart for the character they're most well acquainted with?

So I wonder what the primary factors are. Rage certainly is a factor (I've lost count of how many games I've won/lost thanks to rage cheese). 2 stock format might be another one but huge upsets have definitely occurred in 3 stock S4 tournaments as well.

Yeah
probably quoted the wrong post, but.
it's depressing that a sheik at 30 is losing to a ryu at 160.

 

[EternalFlare]

I'm kinda interested in how we all perceive our mains so I'd like to ask.
Would it be annoying if with everyone's next post they attached a picture of their perceived matchup chart for the character they're most well acquainted with?

That might become too much to discuss at once.

I propose limiting it to just your opinion on your character's worst matchups as that's what the discussion tends to boil down to anyway.

So for me with Diddy, I'd have to go with Megaman. He's well equipped to deal with bananas, never has to be in downtilt range and can potentially edge guard him really well. Diddy's base kill power isn't that great either and Megaman is heavy, if Megaman spends most of his time in the air, Diddy isn't realistically KOing him before 160+. I don't think it's terrible but it might be the only matchup I'd consider 40-60 for Diddy. Everything else either feels like Diddy wins, is even or he only loses slightly.

Even Rosalina doesn't seem bad for Diddy to me. His fair is extremely good against Rosa (big hurtbox) and downtilt to up Smash kills her ridiculously early (floaty+light=high popup into easy sweet spot upSmash).

 

[thehard]

I don't think buffed recoveries were implemented for any reason but 8 player matches. In fact I think a lot of the design of this game caters to that mode (or just 3+ players). Buffed rolls/airdodges, stronger shields, even potentially range nerfs and specific character design could fall under that philosophy.

I see Smash 4 as a game where you basically can never get comfortable no matter who you're playing (although there's obviously blowouts like when Larry jv3'd that Little Mac). And you have to keep in mind that there are ways to assert your skill level that top players still aren't using, for instance I think ZeRo's reluctance to use perfect pivots really hurts his Sheik. There's much more growth to be made. I wouldn't expect any more massive upsets a year from now... provided everyone learns from their mistakes.

Rage is an obvious scapegoat but the issue is I don't see what I perceive as games "won by rage" happen often if at all. It's more like MU experience and straight being outplayed.

2 stock bo3 pools is a little cheesy though

 

[EternalFlare]

I don't think buffed recoveries were implemented for any reason but 8 player matches. In fact I think a lot of the design of this game caters to that mode (or just 3+ players). Buffed rolls/airdodges, stronger shields, even potentially range nerfs and specific character design could fall under that philosophy.

I see Smash 4 as a game where you basically can never get comfortable no matter who you're playing (although there's obviously blowouts like when Larry jv3'd that Little Mac). And you have to keep in mind that there are ways to assert your skill level that top players still aren't using, for instance I think ZeRo's reluctance to use perfect pivots really hurts his Sheik. There's much more growth to be made. I wouldn't expect any more massive upsets a year from now... provided everyone learns from their mistakes.

Rage is an obvious scapegoat but the issue is I don't see what I perceive as games "won by rage" happen often if at all. It's more like MU experience and straight being outplayed.

2 stock bo3 pools is a little cheesy though

Shields after the shield patch are weaker now. Moves cause more shield stun now making them safer on block. Though I guess it's still debatable if S4 or Brawl has the best shields. A lot of moves in Brawl had huge shield pushback and you'd actually slide off and grab the ledge if near one (this particular thing never occurs in Smash 4). Plus shield regeneration seems faster in S4. Not to mention shield pokes being much more of a thing in Brawl. I believe dropping shields is still 7 frames in both games. So yeah it's hard to say which game has the best Smash Bros shields overall, but it'd definitely between those two.

Anyway rage definitely is a big factor and plays into upsets. Go watch Zero vs Prince Ramin for instance. A top player will generally outplay the opponent in neutral a ton but that leaves them open to cheesy rage moves that take stocks at obscenely low percents that would not have killed otherwise.

A good general example is Sheik. Against most of the cast, if Sheik has them at 150+ but is only at 60 herself, chances are she's just as susceptible to losing a stock if not moreso.

 

[SaltyKracka]

This is your reminder that despite constant smugness about the state of the game's balance, there are still literally unwinnable match ups.

 

[Nobie]

literally unwinnable match ups.

What no.

If Dabuz can beat Abadango, then what is unwinnable?

And please don't list 3:7 match-up because those are by definition winnable.

 

[FeelMeUp]

unwinnable matchups refer to an equal skill level without dumb stuff like "doesn't know MU at all," no?
imo, dabuz's style hard counters aba. it just so happens that aba's character flat out steamrolls dabuz's.
sheik ganon is unwinnable
ddd fox is unwinnable
prepatch sheik mk was unwinnable

 

[Y2Kay]

How the hell is prepatch sheik vs MK was unwinnable when MKLeo beat Mr. R and Vinnie?

 

[Illusion.]

prepatch sheik mk was unwinnable

Leo defeated Vinnie (would mention Mr. R also, but he probably didn't know the MU), and Jbandrew beat Karna more than once and ANTi's Sheik at PAX Arena. On another related note, did Tyrant ever beat VoiD pre-patch?

That statement is wrong.

 

[FeelMeUp]

How the hell is prepatch sheik vs MK was unwinnable when MKLeo beat Mr. R and Vinnie?

mk leo beat mr. r before anyone knew meta knight even existed.
mk leo is FAR
FAR
FAAAAAAAAR better than Vinnie has ever been.

 

[Illusion.]

You can't say Vinnie isn't near Leo's level when he was one of the very few players to take a set off ZeRo while he was still on his tournament streak.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Vinnie is an extremely strong player at the top of his game. His issue is that hes more inconsistent than Esam

If could consistently play at the top of his game he would be a top 5 player but that obviously isn't the case
Sadly that's not the case, I love Vinnie

 

[Y2Kay]

mk leo is FAR
FAR
FAAAAAAAAR better than Vinnie has ever been.

If the match up was unwinnable it wouldn't matter.

 

[Fatmanonice]

A lot of people typically say that Diddy vs Mewtwo is bad for Mewtwo, and likely its worst MU. I don't disagree; however, they don't explain why. Why is it so bad for Mewtwo?

Based on my own observations:

1. Diddy's short so randomly whiffing attacks is pretty common place. This is made even more annoying by the fact that has a good crouch and a number of attacks that hit very low or make his hurtbox more horizontal than vertical.

2. Diddy has a fair amount of reliable kill confirms which definitely hurts Mewtwo thanks to still being one of the highest characters in the game.

3. Mewtwo's a big target and Diddy's aerials have fairly large hitboxes. Diddy's also really good at putting on aerial pressure.

4. The banana often forces Mewtwo into the air where Diddy has a clear advantage.

 

[ARGHETH]

If the match up was unwinnable it wouldn't matter.

Unwinnable typically implies equal skill level. Better players can win "unwinnable" MUs against lower level players.
That being said, I really don't think this applies to Vinnie/Leo.