Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Nobie]

Edit: If anyone's curious and just because I'll probably forget, this is the chart I found. If anyone can translate it, go ahead. It is a bit dated; June 9th. *kills tab*

There was a problem fetching the tweet

From top to bottom:

Disadvantage
Mild Disadvantage
Even
Mild Advantage
Advantage

 

[Murlough]

If Sonic wants to release it at an unreactable speeds, he would have to full charge it or spin charge, which both can't be shield cancelled. They require a full commitment.

Half stage length is easily reactable. Or, you know, just bait it out and punish afterwards.

Spindash puts Sonic in a way worse position than Banana if it messes up.

You make it sound alot easier than it actually is.

Even "commiting" to a full spindash doesn't matter alot. I've seen Sonics use the invincibility on spindash to plow through a fully charged shadowball.

And even if you bait out spin dash Sonic can escape easily with spring if need be. He has a plethora of mix-ups to prevent him from being caught. Alot of characters either need precise timing and spacing just to fight back or need to get a hard read anytime they want to deal damage.

We can stop pretending this character is super easy to take advantage of now.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I still don't think she beats jigglypuff
She can pressure Zelda with bair so easily in neutral and her aerial mobility makes it hard to space things like lighting kick

 

[Krysco]

Here's a question for all of you Zard mains and Zard enthusiasts, how exactly is Zard meant to be played? I constantly see the posts about how he's underrated and how he has good moves like jab and usmash and how good uthrow is on anything not called FD and how he has a better disadvantage state than the likes of Bowser or DK but what is optimal Zard play like? I ask because admittedly, I have quite the low opinion of Zard and want to see if I can get my mind changed by actually playing the character properly like I did for Roy thanks to posts from the previous thread. I could have asked this in the Zard threads but I figured since people come here to learn and Zard is a character you're not going to find do well online (too many side b spammers) and you won't find many videos since he has representation issues, this thread seems like a decent place to ask.

Since the question is rather broad, here's some more specific things that come to mind: how does he approach? How does he rack up damage? How does he kill? Does he have a zone close to him where he doesn't want opponents to be (like many sword characters) and if so, how does he get opponents out of that discomfort zone? Recovery seems easy enough to understand but if there's anything besides 'up b to recover low and side b to recover from far away' I'd love to hear it. Stage preference also seems easy to understand since uthrow is talked about so much. Are there any habits that many low and mid level players do a lot that seem good but are actually bad (besides side b spam and as an example I can give, many think Roy is rushdown like Falcon but with a sword when he isn't). Is there any particular playstyle or character archetype that completely shuts him down? Edgeguarding?

Looking at it now, that's quite a lot but an answer to all of these is far better than just hearing about how great usmash and jab and uthrow and his skid animation and his disadvantage state are when I don't even know when to use any of these great options (save for disadvantage). These have all probably been answered before in the previous thread and possibly to a point in the past few pages and if I make anyone repeat themselves then my apologies. If these get answered, I'm gonna test Zard out with whatever knowledge I'm given and see if I can better understand the character and possibly even love the character like what happened with Roy. I already know I'm pretty much doomed in that regard for certain other characters . I understand those 2 a tiny bit better but good lord, I could never see myself playing them and unfortunately, my opinion of them remains lower than the norm because of it.

 

[C0rvus]

Generally, Charizard plays a mostly grounded spacing game using jabs, Flamethrower, and movement. Down tilt and ftilt can be used as counterpokes/whiff punishes but are generally a bit high commitment to be thrown out. Up tilt and up smash are pretty great anti-airs with disjoint, and retreating forward air can also be used to respond to the opponent's advances.

Your goal is to get the opponent to the ledge/off the stage, since Charizard excels at ledge play. Use Flamethrower to harass, well placed disjointed down smashes to two frame, or meaty aerials to punish getup options.

Charizard can also use Flare Blitz in tech chase situations if he's feeling ballsy, and in general has some tools that reward good reads. Disadvantage isn't very good due to his poor air speed and big body, but he has two midair jumps. He can also throw out some armored moves to force trades in his favor, but this is a big commitment. That's the theme with Charizard I feel; big commitment that can lead to someone dying, whether it's the opponent or not lol.

I can't say for sure if he's better than DK or Bowser, but I am sure he's not as far from them as most tier lists tend to put him.

 

[Krysco]

Generally, Charizard plays a mostly grounded spacing game using jabs, Flamethrower, and movement. Down tilt and ftilt can be used as counterpokes/whiff punishes but are generally a bit high commitment to be thrown out. Up tilt and up smash are pretty great anti-airs with disjoint, and retreating forward air can also be used to respond to the opponent's advances.

Your goal is to get the opponent to the ledge/off the stage, since Charizard excels at ledge play. Use Flamethrower to harass, well placed disjointed down smashes to two frame, or meaty aerials to punish getup options.

Charizard can also use Flare Blitz in tech chase situations if he's feeling ballsy, and in general has some tools that reward good reads. Disadvantage isn't very good due to his poor air speed and big body, but he has two midair jumps. He can also throw out some armored moves to force trades in his favor, but this is a big commitment. That's the theme with Charizard I feel; big commitment that can lead to someone dying, whether it's the opponent or not lol.

I can't say for sure if he's better than DK or Bowser, but I am sure he's not as far from them as most tier lists tend to put him.

Just tested the range of jab and it seems decent since he lunges forward quite a bit. Has a nice faf of 23 which is faster than the likes of Sheiks, MKs and Foxes ftilts. He does poke his head out a bit though and I've read of that being a major problem with the character since he lacks head intangibility on...*checks* anything other than uair and apparently fsmash has invincibility frames. I may be too used to Brawl and Melee but I'm guessing/hoping Flamethrower is safe on hit, even if di'd? Can't test for myself too well since low level ai won't punish or di well and high level ai would just avoid it. Will get a better idea when my cousin comes over next or possibly when I next go online. Ftilt seems like one of those 'smash attack esque' tilts much like those of Link, Ganon, Roy, Marth, Mac and Ike. Dtilt seems a bit nicer with its faf of 31 over ftilts 43 but the hitbox is only out for 2 frames (although there's a windbox on it apparently?) and again, head poking issues. Utilt seems to lack much horizontal range so it seems best for anti-airing those coming directly on top of you. Don't see much problem with usmash.Sh fair I recall being nice but looking at Kurogane, something confuses me. It has his short hop time listed as 34 frames and says fair autocancels on frames 1 to 4 and then frame 35 onward, 1 higher than his short hop time.

I could jest and say that that's the goal of the entire game but on a serious note, it sounds like Zard wants to treat everyone like everyone wants to treat Mac and possibly Cloud. Get them off stage and hamper them there. Depending how good he is there, I may actually love that part about him. Roy has some beautiful edgeguarding and ledgeguarding options with dtilt, ftilt, fsmash, nair and run off fair or Blazer back to the stage. Oh and counter for hitbox recoveries.Dsmash is only active for 3 frames but I can imagine the reward is great. In regards to the aerials, what all does he have? Retreating fair is probably good. Would a retreating or just well spaced bair possibly catch all or most options? No idea how good uair would be for catching jumps, if it'd be better to just usmash or Fly. Nair have any use on the ledge? Just tested its hitboxes and it seems very similar to Cloud's, starting behind him then going up and then in front and below. Just far slower and less disjointed.

For tech chase situations, does he have easy means of getting opponents into them? *tests and answers own question* sh fair, sour ftilt and dtilt seem good. Fthrow and bthrow send way too high. Maybe nair? Moreso sour nair. I miss any good ones? Best seem to be dtilt and fair. The extra jump and armored moves tend to be brought up when Zard is compared to the other heavies so while his disadvantage may not be good, it seems better than the likes of Bowser's, DK's or Ganon's. The 'theme' as you called it is one I'm not sure if I'm into or not. Like, I've loved Ganon in every iteration of Smash but have never cared for Bowser or DK and back in Brawl, whenever I did use Zard, I treated him pretty much as a poor mans D3. Many, many shield grabs. Quickly lost interest in D3 in Sm4sh namely due to a lot of weak moves (no killing tilts and only 2 on stage killing aerials, only one of which can be autocancelled) plus the nerf to gordos. I guess Shulk could be considered a high commitment character due to how much lag everything has on him and I just find him okay...rambling a bit. Point is, for high commitment characters, I've only ever really liked Ganon, no idea why.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Play Charizard like you would play Sonic, and you'll find that he plays like a better Sonic. I'm not kidding.

Flamethrower is the "you are not allowed to be here" button like Spin Dash that also makes an absolute joke out of recoveries, Jab is the close range Spin Dash, his dash grab and regular grab is better with superior followups. The only thing Sonic does better than Zard is escaping out of bad places.

 

[Nah]

I wouldn't really say that Flamethrower or Jab are exactly like Spin Dash, but why do you (suddenly) seem to have a very high opinion of Zard anyway Johan? Just wondering.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Seeing as neither Flamethrower or Jab have invincibility frames to make them insane options up close, nor are they shield cancelable to significantly reduce their commitment, nor do they make him a smaller target: no they are nowhere as good of options as Sonic's.

 

[FamilyTeam]

"Charizard plays like a better something"
There's something I definitely do not see every day.

 

[Krysco]

Play Charizard like you would play Sonic, and you'll find that he plays like a better Sonic. I'm not kidding.

Flamethrower is the "you are not allowed to be here" button like Spin Dash that also makes an absolute joke out of recoveries, Jab is the close range Spin Dash, his dash grab and regular grab is better with superior followups. The only thing Sonic does better than Zard is escaping out of bad places.

That...sounds very concerning. Granted, the wording doesn't particularly help me since I don't play Sonic at all. I have however seen the Wrath vs ZeRo match and I watched the first video KEN was in that Gheb posted pages ago and I've also fought a few competent Sonics online. The most I tend to get is that he does ball and then his opponent can't do much. I know I don't like ball. I don't believe a single thunder spell variant touches ball and Robin, the slowest runner, approaching Sonic, the fastest, is awful.

 

[Das Koopa]

weekend tournies pertinent to my rankings

Shine 2016 (New England)
Astra 2016 (Colombia)
OzHadou Nationals 14 (Australia)
Capital City Smash #4 (Canada)
DAT Blastzone 14 (United Kingdom)
Sumabato ## (Japan)

international week, i guess

 

[soniczx123]

You make it sound alot easier than it actually is.

Even "commiting" to a full spindash doesn't matter alot. I've seen Sonics use the invincibility on spindash to plow through a fully charged shadowball.

And even if you bait out spin dash Sonic can escape easily with spring if need be. He has a plethora of mix-ups to prevent him from being caught. Alot of characters either need precise timing and spacing just to fight back or need to get a hard read anytime they want to deal damage.

We can stop pretending this character is super easy to take advantage of now.

That requires precise timing as well, or else he's dead.

By Springing, Sonic's only possible options are aerials and FF.

 

[arbustopachon]

I know linking to the be smash Sharpy run with discussing Zard is kind of a cliche at this point, but dude is the best zard out there imo so i recomend anyone interested on playing Zard to check his matches.

In regards to the aerials, what all does he have? Retreating fair is probably good. Would a retreating or just well spaced bair possibly catch all or most options? No idea how good uair would be for catching jumps, if it'd be better to just usmash or Fly. Nair have any use on the ledge? Just tested its hitboxes and it seems very similar to Cloud's, starting behind him then going up and then in front and below. Just far slower and less disjointed.

Retreating sh fair is safe on shield making it pretty good at pressuring the opponent. While a spaced fastfall sh bair is safe on shield it has way too much startup to be thrown around carelessly, a whiffing bair is painful.
Uair is kinda iffy at catching jump ins due to it's slow startup and Zards long jumpsquat, it is better for catching airdodges and juggilng an already airborne opponent. For catching jumps reverse nair, U-smash and u-tilt are good. Fly is very high risk.
Reverse Nair is pretty good at edgeguarding people trying to recover high due to the flame being disjointed, drop off nair can end up on you SDing tho.

The extra jump and armored moves tend to be brought up when Zard is compared to the other heavies so while his disadvantage may not be good, it seems better than the likes of Bowser's, DK's or Ganon's

Another advantage has over Bowser and Ganon is his slightly higher air acceleration. Flamethrower can also be b reversed or wavebounced in order to help with landing. Remember that when Rocksmashing Zard "floats" a bit losing momentum which can throw off the opponents spacing or get you killed. Do not overuse his armored moves since they are extremely punishable, Rocksmash in particular can be punished even if you armor through an opponents attack.

If you are interested here is a link to Zard's hitboxes thread.

 

[Murlough]

That requires precise timing as well, or else he's dead.

By Springing, Sonic's only possible options are aerials and FF.

I know. He doesn't have to spring at all though. My point is he has options at any point unless he springs and can't autocancel his dair. You tend to make it sound like Sonic isn't half as good as people like to believe here but I can't imagine Sonic out of top 5.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

What really makes Cloud's recovery weak is that he can only really recover from a vertical area right below the edge, and only one part of that area actually ledgesnaps. Put simply, if he's not going high, you know exactly when he'll use his recovery.

I'd actually be really interested in seeing some kind of "recovery heatmap" that shows the ways a characters can recover to the edge with color, shaded based on how fast the recovery happens. Also, there could be an additional color that shows how far a character can travel after Knockback just by drifting with their double jump.

I did something sort of similar with Rosalina once. I made a custom stage built to demonstrate the maximum range of Launch Star a) without angling it at all, b) angling it forward as much as possible, and c) angling it backwards as much as possible. Here's a link,, direct image below in the spoiler. Rosalina starts from center stage and can grab the left ledge of all three platforms simply by using Launch Star from that position.

Spoiler: Image

 

[Krysco]

I know linking to the be smash Sharpy run with discussing Zard is kind of a cliche at this point, but dude is the best zard out there imo so i recomend anyone interested on playing Zard to check his matches.



Retreating sh fair is safe on shield making it pretty good at pressuring the opponent. While a spaced fastfall sh bair is safe on shield it has way too much startup to be thrown around carelessly, a whiffing bair is painful.
Uair is kinda iffy at catching jump ins due to it's slow startup and Zards long jumpsquat, it is better for catching airdodges and juggilng an already airborne opponent. For catching jumps reverse nair, U-smash and u-tilt are good. Fly is very high risk.
Reverse Nair is pretty good at edgeguarding people trying to recover high due to the flame being disjointed, drop off nair can end up on you SDing tho.



Another advantage has over Bowser and Ganon is his slightly higher air acceleration. Flamethrower can also be b reversed or wavebounced in order to help with landing. Remember that when Rocksmashing Zard "floats" a bit losing momentum which can throw off the opponents spacing or get you killed. Do not overuse his armored moves since they are extremely punishable, Rocksmash in particular can be punished even if you armor through an opponents attack.

If you are interested here is a link to Zard's hitboxes thread.

I'll be sure to check the matches and the hitbox thread when I've got the free time (labbing atm).

When I was talking about uair, I was referring to catching ledge jumps although from what you say, uair just seems like a standard, juggling uair. Head intangibility is interesting though. Sh retreating fair being safe on shield sounds nice. Does 12%, 1 more than Link's first hit of fair so I'm guessing its got at least decent shield pushback. Fly and usmash were again, in regards to ledge jumps. Utilt seems to lack enough horizontal range for that purpose since you have to be so close that they could just get up attack.

Air acceleration sounds mostly useful for recovering but that is a boon since Ganon is one of the few characters that's easily gimpable. Wavebouncing Flamethrower sounds sweet depending how much it shifts Zard. Been trying to get that down pat with Roy since it's one of his few means of getting down alive. *tests Rock Smash 'float'*. I notice it more at the apex of a jump but it is noticeable, interesting. Looking at the frame data, Rock Smash is a 72 frame commitment and you're only getting armor on frames 5 to 23 so I can definitely see you getting punished even after armoring through an attack, especially if none of the rock shards hit them.

 

[HoSmash4]

weekend tournies pertinent to my rankings

Shine 2016 (New England)
Astra 2016 (Colombia)
OzHadou Nationals 14 (Australia)
Capital City Smash #4 (Canada)
DAT Blastzone 14 (United Kingdom)

international week, i guess

Battalion this week in Germany Yikarur should post results

 

[Pazzo.]

Does Charizard have a hurtbox on his tail?

I know the guy has a neck like a giraffe, but is he also vulnerable while trying to use that fantastic bair?

 

[arbustopachon]

He does have a hurtbox on the base of his tail, i think the end of his tail does not have a hurtbox tho. Kinda similar to Mewtwo's tail.
The sweetspot on bair is massively disjointed at the very least.

 

[Rizen]

In brawl it was tail, yes; flame, no.
@Lavani is a good person to ask about Charizard's hurtbox.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

He does have a hurtbox on the base of his tail, i think the end of his tail does not have a hurtbox tho. Kinda similar to Mewtwo's tail.
The sweetspot on bair is massively disjointed at the very least.

This is what it should be with Zard's hurtbox, it's at the base of his tail.

Just tested the range of jab and it seems decent since he lunges forward quite a bit. Has a nice faf of 23 which is faster than the likes of Sheiks, MKs and Foxes ftilts. He does poke his head out a bit though and I've read of that being a major problem with the character since he lacks head intangibility on...*checks* anything other than uair and apparently fsmash has invincibility frames. I may be too used to Brawl and Melee but I'm guessing/hoping Flamethrower is safe on hit, even if di'd? Can't test for myself too well since low level ai won't punish or di well and high level ai would just avoid it. Will get a better idea when my cousin comes over next or possibly when I next go online. Ftilt seems like one of those 'smash attack esque' tilts much like those of Link, Ganon, Roy, Marth, Mac and Ike. Dtilt seems a bit nicer with its faf of 31 over ftilts 43 but the hitbox is only out for 2 frames (although there's a windbox on it apparently?) and again, head poking issues. Utilt seems to lack much horizontal range so it seems best for anti-airing those coming directly on top of you. Don't see much problem with usmash.Sh fair I recall being nice but looking at Kurogane, something confuses me. It has his short hop time listed as 34 frames and says fair autocancels on frames 1 to 4 and then frame 35 onward, 1 higher than his short hop time.

I could jest and say that that's the goal of the entire game but on a serious note, it sounds like Zard wants to treat everyone like everyone wants to treat Mac and possibly Cloud. Get them off stage and hamper them there. Depending how good he is there, I may actually love that part about him. Roy has some beautiful edgeguarding and ledgeguarding options with dtilt, ftilt, fsmash, nair and run off fair or Blazer back to the stage. Oh and counter for hitbox recoveries.Dsmash is only active for 3 frames but I can imagine the reward is great. In regards to the aerials, what all does he have? Retreating fair is probably good. Would a retreating or just well spaced bair possibly catch all or most options? No idea how good uair would be for catching jumps, if it'd be better to just usmash or Fly. Nair have any use on the ledge? Just tested its hitboxes and it seems very similar to Cloud's, starting behind him then going up and then in front and below. Just far slower and less disjointed.

For tech chase situations, does he have easy means of getting opponents into them? *tests and answers own question* sh fair, sour ftilt and dtilt seem good. Fthrow and bthrow send way too high. Maybe nair? Moreso sour nair. I miss any good ones? Best seem to be dtilt and fair. The extra jump and armored moves tend to be brought up when Zard is compared to the other heavies so while his disadvantage may not be good, it seems better than the likes of Bowser's, DK's or Ganon's. The 'theme' as you called it is one I'm not sure if I'm into or not. Like, I've loved Ganon in every iteration of Smash but have never cared for Bowser or DK and back in Brawl, whenever I did use Zard, I treated him pretty much as a poor mans D3. Many, many shield grabs. Quickly lost interest in D3 in Sm4sh namely due to a lot of weak moves (no killing tilts and only 2 on stage killing aerials, only one of which can be autocancelled) plus the nerf to gordos. I guess Shulk could be considered a high commitment character due to how much lag everything has on him and I just find him okay...rambling a bit. Point is, for high commitment characters, I've only ever really liked Ganon, no idea why.

You can Roll OoS if Flamethrower is hitting your shield, just know the distance as Zard so they can't roll behind you or know when to use it like if they are jumping or trying to bait with dashes a lot. It is safe on hit.

If they miss a tech on a SH nair at midish percents you can turn around Usmash after it for a jab lock and get a free Fsmash.

 

[soniczx123]

I know. He doesn't have to spring at all though. My point is he has options at any point unless he springs and can't autocancel his dair. You tend to make it sound like Sonic isn't half as good as people like to believe here but I can't imagine Sonic out of top 5.

If he doesn't spring, his only options are jump, stop or keep moving. It becomes a guessing game with all but stopping (to some extent) giving up stage control

That's the problem. Most people think that his saving grace for top tier is spin dash and how "broken" it is. Sonic is a good character not just because of it, but he's design around it and as well as Sm4sh complementing it. (Main reason he sucked in Brawl was that The game engine isn't complement his desgin)

EDIT:

Can commentators stop piggybacking ZeRo saying Sonic has the best neutral in the game? Whiffing spin means forfeiting stage control. Thanks.

— Camalange (@Camalange) August 26, 2016

 

[Gunla]

EDIT: https://twitter.com/Camalange/status/769219793861931008

How do you embed tweets btw??

Use the media tab (like you would a YouTube Video).

So, like this:

Can commentators stop piggybacking ZeRo saying Sonic has the best neutral in the game? Whiffing spin means forfeiting stage control. Thanks.

— Camalange (@Camalange) August 26, 2016

 

[Aaron1997]

Das Koopa Don't forgot that Sumabato is also going on this weekend

 

[|RK|]

If he doesn't spring, his only options are jump, stop or keep moving. It becomes a guessing game with all but stopping (to some extent) giving up stage control

That's the problem. Most people think that his saving grace for top tier is spin dash and how "broken" it is. Sonic is a good character not just because of it, but he's design around it and as well as Sm4sh complementing it. (Main reason he sucked in Brawl was that The game engine isn't complement his desgin)

EDIT:

Can commentators stop piggybacking ZeRo saying Sonic has the best neutral in the game? Whiffing spin means forfeiting stage control. Thanks.

— Camalange (@Camalange) August 26, 2016

Forgive my ignorance, but isn't this how most things work? Save for maybe needles? If you whiff it or otherwise use it at the wrong time, you're going to be in a disadvantageous position. The fact that whiffed spindash loses him stage control doesn't really hurt his neutral, since the danger is before he releases it. And if neutral is about putting your opponent in a position where it's easier for you to force bad commitments and throw them into disadvantage (which spindash + spindash cancel + run speed) easily, while increasing the chances that your own commitments will work out... who does that better?

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Forgive my ignorance, but isn't this how most things work? Save for maybe needles? If you whiff it or otherwise use it at the wrong time, you're going to be in a disadvantageous position. The fact that whiffed spindash loses him stage control doesn't really hurt his neutral, since the danger is before he releases it. And if neutral is about putting your opponent in a position where it's easier for you to force bad commitments and throw them into disadvantage (which spindash + spindash cancel + run speed) easily, while increasing the chances that your own commitments will work out... who does that better?

Spindash isn't necessarily putting you in a bad position, its just putting Sonic in a better position. It also helps that players tend to panic and do something stupid whenever they see spindash come out. Needles on the other hand put both you in a bad position and Sheik in a good position depending on how they're used. They also cannot be reacted to unlike spindash. Its a lot easier to deal with spindash than needles

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Am I the only one who thinks that Mewtwo vs Diddy might potentially not be as bad as we think it is? I'm going to be straight up honest and say that I have not seen very much of the matchup played at top level outside of the Abadango set and because of that my opinion should be taken with a hearty grain of salt. However I am a dedicated main of both characters and I know a fairly decent amount about both of their kits.

Here's what I know and what has been said plenty of times before in regards to the matchup as it benefits Diddy:

-Fair stuffs out most of Mewtwo' aerial and grounded options and his large hurtbox only exemplifies this issue
-Footstool will never connect to disable because Diddy is too short
-Diddy's solid frame data and CQC combined with his above average range and poking ability make things tough for Mewtwo once Diddy gets in
-If Mewtwo throws out a baby shadow ball from an unsafe distance, he is probably going to eat a monkey flip to the face.
-Mewtwo has mediocre getup options and Diddy has the best ledge traps in the entire game

Most of this by now is common knowledge and it is why the matchup is generally agreed to be in Diddy's favor. However, Mewtwo does have things in the matchup that can be potentially dangerous for Diddy.

-Shadow ball is a scary projectile for Diddy to deal with and he historically struggles against potent projectile zoning as evidenced by his matchups against Pac, Olimar and Megaman. It's possible that if Mewtwo mains play the matchup more patiently and focus on harassing Diddy with baby shadow balls, then they could make the matchup less of a struggle.
-On the ground, Mewtwo's down tilt out ranges Diddy's
-Mewtwo is very fast and can punish careless banana plucks/whiffed aerials with a dash attack, fair, or dash grab
-Mewtwo is a god of controlling space and since most of Mewtwo's kit is horizontally based (fthrow, fair, dash attack) he can establish stage control very easily and make it hard to come back
-Despite being light, all of Mewtwo's stupidly good kill power is just as potent in this matchup as it is in any and in fact, since Diddy actually has worse kill power than most top tiers in this game (kill power, not kill setups) Mewtwo can build rage more easily than usual and obliterate Diddy at dumb early percents with fair, usmash, etc.
-My last point is the most important and it pertains to the offstage game. Mewtwo has criminally underrated and underutilized edgeguarding and in this matchup it can really shine. Reading a monkey flip to the ledge with walk-off fair is a disaster for Diddy, and Nair is excellent for covering rocket barrels because of the lingering hitbox

That's my two cents and I probably missed a bunch of stuff for both sides, but I do think Mewtwo has room for growth in this matchup and it could potentially be evened out over time.

 

[Djent]

I don't have a front-page article on this, so this is important: Sumabato 12 should begin in a few hours.

Spoiler: Suma 12 Info

Entrants List: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1buz9IjDCaLSvekx9cuamTz93lbPWCEUYuYAXu-cLMpw/edit
Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/shi_gaming
Schedule: pools from 10:45 a.m. JST, bracket from 2:45 p.m. JST.
Other Info: ~190 entrants, with notable Wi-Fi players Yoshidora and Ron in attendance.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Play Charizard like you would play Sonic, and you'll find that he plays like a better Sonic. I'm not kidding.

Flamethrower is the "you are not allowed to be here" button like Spin Dash that also makes an absolute joke out of recoveries, Jab is the close range Spin Dash, his dash grab and regular grab is better with superior followups. The only thing Sonic does better than Zard is escaping out of bad places.

As a dedicated Zard main.

This is insane.

I mean, I guess there are a few similarities but not enough to compare....

 

[Murlough]

Its a lot easier to deal with spindash than needles

Are we talking pre-patch needles?

Post-patch needles seem way easier to deal with. Maybe because I play Mewtwo, Sheik, and Roy but even if you play Ganondorf spindash just seems way more polarizing.

Needles can be difficult post-patch to get by if you are a heavy but most characters with decent mobility aren't going to be stopped because of needles.

Spin dash on the other hand is super difficult (at least with my knowledge against the move. There are plenty of things left to try so if there is some secret "beat spindash" button please do let me know.) to deal with. If you are a character with poor mobility then guess who isn't gonna punish it? I also know that banana and Mewtwo's dtilt clank with spindash...clank. Not beat. Why?

And if you shield the attack you THEN have to read what the Sonic will do next so you have a hope of dealing some damage for the sonic pressing sideb and not successfully landing the hit.

Now that I've given you my 8th wall of text for the day, why do you think needles this patch is harder to deal with than sonic's spindash?

 

[PK Gaming]

EDIT:

Can commentators stop piggybacking ZeRo saying Sonic has the best neutral in the game? Whiffing spin means forfeiting stage control. Thanks.

— Camalange (@Camalange) August 26, 2016

I don't think the potential of "whiffing" spin dash precludes Sonic's neutral from being super amazing, especially when it can be cancelled on the spot.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

ZeRo's 1.1.6 tier list, mid tier edition:

Picture version of said tier list so far:

 

[TurboLink]

ZeRo's 1.1.6 tier list, mid tier edition:

Picture version of said tier list so far:

Are mid-tiers not in order? How is a character who gets walled hard as hell like Doctor Mario better than Ike, Wii Fit Trainer, or/and Wario? Have Doctor Mario's results skyrocketed that high?

 

[Murlough]

His placement of Roy is optmistic as heck and I love it.

Hopefully, someone will pick up Roy seriously and prove ZeRo correct.

 

[FullMoon]

It must be really sad if 13th worst counts as being really optimistic for Roy.

 

[PK Gaming]

It must be really sad if 13th worst counts as being really optimistic for Roy.

To be fair, the number placement isn't all that important. It's the tier placement itself that specifically stands out, and Roy being a mid tier in ZeRo's eyes is a fairly big statement.

ZeRo's low tier in general is pretty small, come to think of it.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Are mid-tiers not in order? How is a character who gets walled hard as hell like Doctor Mario better than Ike, Wii Fit Trainer, or/and Wario? Have Doctor Mario's results skyrocketed that high?

They haven't.

Zero is going almost strictly by his gut or "potential".

At least he's giving me perfect examples for my rants about don't use potential in a tier list because otherwise you can use it to justify just about anything

 

[Murlough]

It must be really sad if 13th worst counts as being really optimistic for Roy.

As what has already been said, I meant the tier ranking as opposed to the number.

I also meant "as opposed to the several tier lists I've seen that put Roy in the same tier as Jigglypuff and Miss Swordfighter."

I probably should give some context next time.

I feel like Roy can go further than where ZeRo placed him but I have no proof. I feel like if he had some people putting time in to seriously develop his meta he would be undoubtably Mid tier. Hopefully, time will tell.

 

[Mr. Johan]

If ZeRo feels Charizard deserves to be in the Upper tier, then he should have put him there in the first place.

No one's going to be mad at you when you're right.