Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Rizen]

's design utterly baffles me. He's meant to be a slow hard-read kind of character whose entire kit kills (so at death %, if you get hit by Ganon's almost anything, you die), yet, he has an abysmally bad grab with even worse grab reward, so he autoloses to shield. How does that make sense? If you're going to make a character who is so slow that he has to hard read you or else he can't win, you need to give him a way to coerce you out of shield. Ganon doesn't have that. Even if he tomahawks you and reads your shield and gets a grab you're okay because being grabbed by Ganon really doesn't matter. Thus patient shielding wrecks Ganon every day all day. That's the only reason he sucks. With Bowser-tier grab reward he'd be top tier, I have no doubt about that.

I partially agree but he has some grab benefits. His command grab being made tech-able was a nonsensical decision but he can kill with DA or wiz-kick and still read some techs or use smaller platforms for guarantees. Ganon's grab range is tiny and he doesn't have any kill throw/combos but he gets low % Dthrow>DA/wiz kick/Fair (?) and his Fthrow deals 13%, that's respectable. It also throws offstage at 43 degrees so he can try to Uair recoveries.
Ganon also has insane shield pressure when he hits. You can't hide in your shield vs Ganon.

 

[adom4]

's design utterly baffles me. He's meant to be a slow hard-read kind of character whose entire kit kills (so at death %, if you get hit by Ganon's almost anything, you die), yet, he has an abysmally bad grab with even worse grab reward, so he autoloses to shield. How does that make sense? If you're going to make a character who is so slow that he has to hard read you or else he can't win, you need to give him a way to coerce you out of shield. Ganon doesn't have that. Even if he tomahawks you and reads your shield and gets a grab you're okay because being grabbed by Ganon really doesn't matter. Thus patient shielding wrecks Ganon every day all day. That's the only reason he sucks. With Bowser-tier grab reward he'd be top tier, I have no doubt about that.

His grab reward is mostly average, some characters get utterly wrecked by D-throw ( come to mind) + he can get kill confirms off non optimal DI at around 60-90% depending on the character, it's mostly his garbage grabs that hinder it so much, if he had a better grab i would be fine with the reward and i'd rather have a better grab than grab reward because DK and Bowser are stupid as hell lol.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yes.

From Merriam Webster:

"a : an important feature that is not immediately apparent"

"b : an ingenious and usually new scheme or angle"

"c : a trick or device used to attract business or attention <a marketing gimmick>"

Technically it's a gimmick either way

How serious an answer is this?

 

[NairWizard]

How serious an answer is this?

Just pointing out the very common misuse of the word "gimmick" to imply that a strategy is ineffectual or easily figured out.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Either way, I don't think any of the 'criteria' you posted apply to TaiGoma's Luc²-strats.

 

[Nah]

Even if Dorf got a better grab and/or grab reward he wouldn't be shooting up to top tier or near. His frame data and mobility are still horrible and that will always hold him (or anyone with ****ty mobility and/or frame data) back a lot.

It would still do a lot, just that he'd end up in like mid tier instead of high or top.....which is still a pretty big jump up the list.

 

[HoSmash4]

RE is Lucario Lucas strat a gimmick:

If 'gimmick' in the sense it's revolved around one game plan, yes.
If 'gimmick' In the sense counterplay exists and destroys it, no.

 

[Emblem Lord]

That is an interesting mentality for someone who doesn't play a "potential best character".

Show me where and when in any recent competitive thread where I said winning was important to me personally.

Now on the other hand, try to find posts where I expressed my love for a certain character or played a character because I like what they do, you will have a much easier time. Also I do not go to majors and I don't travel. So my actions are actually perfectly in line with my mentality.

"I do not play a top tier therefore I am not playing to win, and thus will not spend money trying to compete."

I play for the thrill of competition generally, and it helps that my state has many strong players. I do not need to do much of anything if I want to fight someone strong. Make a phone call or two and BAM, I am driving over to the loft where False, NAKAT, and the LOF crew train and play. NJ also has at least 3 weeklies a week. Hell North Jersey and South Jersey sometimes have small tournaments on the same day. There are monthly tournaments only 10 to 15 minutes from my house.

NJ peeps are super spoiled really. And with online I REALLY don't need to leave my house. I can jump on Anther's and ask Icymist, Wrath or whoever to play and since there aren't alot of good Ryu's they will play me just for that experience.

Truly for a man such as myself, I am fortunate to live in NJ during this technological age.

 

[SaltyKracka]

I am fortunate to live in NJ

You just keep telling yourself that, bud.

Anyways, this has sparked a question I know I've been meaning to ask for a while.

We know that the West and East Coasts are the major centers of Smash Bros in the US, but just what goes on in the middle of the country (outside of Texas)?

 

[TDK]

My Christmas present to you all ◥θ┴θ◤. Here is my Greninja Match-up chart for December 2016. Disclaimer *my opinion!* pic.twitter.com/tm6Nctbg1S

— 𝕚𝕊𝕥𝕦𝕕𝕪𝕚𝕟𝕘 (@iStudying) December 26, 2016

I know you people hate this but...this is honestly pretty interesting.

Top Greninja main who believes that Greninja has the matchup chart of a mid tier.

Not really relevant, but I love how losing to just 8 characters in this game gets you called a mid tier.

 

[bc1910]

Even if Dorf got a better grab and/or grab reward he wouldn't be shooting up to top tier or near. His frame data and mobility are still horrible and that will always hold him (or anyone with ****ty mobility and/or frame data) back a lot.

It would still do a lot, just that he'd end up in like mid tier instead of high or top.....which is still a pretty big jump up the list.

Ganon's frame data isn't that bad, especially when you take into account his moves' power. Bair and Uair in particular would be broken on almost any other character.

His horrendous mobility and complete dearth of approach options, particularly against characters with projectiles, are the main factors in his poor tier placement.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

's design utterly baffles me. He's meant to be a slow hard-read kind of character whose entire kit kills (so at death %, if you get hit by Ganon's almost anything, you die), yet, he has an abysmally bad grab with even worse grab reward, so he autoloses to shield. How does that make sense? If you're going to make a character who is so slow that he has to hard read you or else he can't win, you need to give him a way to coerce you out of shield. Ganon doesn't have that. Even if he tomahawks you and reads your shield and gets a grab you're okay because being grabbed by Ganon really doesn't matter. Thus patient shielding wrecks Ganon every day all day. That's the only reason he sucks. With Bowser-tier grab reward he'd be top tier, I have no doubt about that.

You gotta keep in mind Smash isn't designed solely for 1v1 play with a competitive rule set (stock, no items,stage bans etc.) Ganondorf is just fine in the madness of a four player FFA where he can just throw out his high power moves and send everyone flying without a care.

That's a problem with the super heavies in smash in general. Unless you have some gimmicks chances are your going to have a harder time simply by design and no one would like it if DK or Ganondorf(ok some people with Dorf) weren't giant, super strong, can destroy you in a few hits type characters it just goes against their character.

It's totally not impossible to make Super Heavies good in smash look at Brawl D3 or Snake but unfortunately they seem to be designed more around 4+ players more then they are in a 1 on 1.

 

[Nu~]

Not really relevant, but I love how losing to just 8 characters in this game gets you called a mid tier.

When 5 of those characters are common af and are in the top ten...well, it isn't exactly an easy life for you in bracket.

 

[williamsga555]

We know that the West and East Coasts are the major centers of Smash Bros in the US, but just what goes on in the middle of the country (outside of Texas)?

The Midwest is very fragmented, geographically. Unless you live in a major city, like, say, Chicago, you have to travel a fair ways to attend anything outside of a local (if you're lucky enough to have a close local, that is).

As such, most don't travel much. At least, not around the Iowa scene, anyway. A few of our top players went to Nexus awhile back, but otherwise, we've been pretty landlocked, so to speak. Can't really say about the rest of the Midwest, but I know Chicago and Michigan have fairly strong scenes.

 

[Routa]

Last thing you guys want is Ganondorf with mobility. He has one of the best kits of aerials and giving him better mobility would be not fun.

Also Ganondorf is amazing in doubles... if he has a support partner like let's say Wario, Mario or Sheik who can aid his recovery and boost his kill ability with moves like Needles, throws and Bike (Bike is MVP in doubles).

 

[BSP]

FeelMeUp Cloud>Sheik/Mario/Diddy/ZSS for top 5 doubles imo, though cloud with any strong character is good.

Ma friend of mine thinks Mario/cloud is the best team in the game. I think it's a toss up between them, cloud/sheik, and cloud/diddy. I'll elaborate in a bit.

 

[Tizio Random]

I agree with the notion that Ganon with better mobility could possibly end up being obnoxious as his attacks are straight-up amazing just trapped in the body of a turtle. As previously said, giving him reward for getting grabs would make him at least low tier.
Slightly increase his grab range and make one of his throws a combo throw that could possibly lead into a kill at high percents and maybe even a kill throw (something along the lines of Marth's uthrow) on top of that and... ta-da! Now Ganon is a good character. It worked with Bowser, Robin, DK and possibly Zelda, I don't see why Ganon of all the characters must have such a pitiful grab game. I understand not giving these traits to a character like Cloud who has amazing everything else, but why the poor King of Evil must be so tragically weak with his arms...

 

[meleebrawler]

Talking about slow characters being better in doubles, what about Zelda? Besides the usual not-getting-juggled as much, she can also break her partner out of them from almost anywhere with her specials, even if they don't necessarily hit.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Zelda and Puff are both extremely good in doubles.

 

[Krysco]

As you said, because Tink has the ability to run away but a closer range on his normals, he is rewarded more to play a more campy, punish oriented style from afar. Link, with his superior sword range, plays a more midrange style, ideally weaving in and out of a very specific zone, but absolutely CANNOT play campy because he just isn't fast enough to follow up from full screen off a random boomerang or bomb. Their frame data is very comparable as well, but Link just has a better range in neutral in exchange for runspeed, meaning he has to play at a closer range. That's how their zoning is different. Link uses his projectiles for different reasons, covering/limiting options and trapping, where Tink, while he does a little of that, is mainly looking for one to hit for a followup while playing mostly safe. Instead of "copy and pasted function-wise," I think it would be more apt to say "animation-wise," because their kit is actually very different and their moves are used for very different reasons throughout the course of a game, honestly.

Not that I agree terribly with the Mewtwo comparison, but as Rizen pointed out, Link is fairly unique in design. I think Marth is probably a little closer of a comparison to a Link, but without projectiles. They both sort of want to play at that midrange, not too close but not far enough that you can't follow up.

Also, a minor nitpick, Boomerang has 5 angles. Also as someone pointed out above, Link's bombs are basically strictly better than Tink's.

Saying 'animation-wise' may have been a better choice of words on my part but then I look and see that they both have a long lasting, powerful, ranged uair, an fsmash with a weak hit that follows into a strong hit, a jab with 2 weak hits into a strong hit, their bombs seem to play very similar roles with Link's just being better. Guess that's not too many moves but I did say 'copy and pasted with tweaks'. Like, I'm pretty sure they use their ftilts for different purposes since Link's has far more kill power while Tink's is faster but for both of them, it's still an overhead swing with hitboxes high enough to hit aerial opponents.

That all being said, I do recognize the differences in their arrows, their returning boomerangs, their dash attacks, up smashes, down smashes to a point, and every aerial save for uair and somewhat zair. As for the boomerang angles, does the smash throw result in a different angle for the up and down throws? I always just thought it made it go further.

 

[TDK]

Dedede is literally a kirby boss in Smash bros.

Slow, Strong, Telegraphed, takes lots of hits, and has some trick that can be redirected against him.

The problem is Kirby is baby's first platformer, so the design kind of fails competitively because he's literally designed to be easy to beat.

 

[Deleted member]

The Super Heavies just don't work in 1v1. They play like they're meant for FFA battles. Not sure if ,, and count, since they're widely considered the only good super heavies in the entire series. Snake had his DACUS and excellent non-freefall recovery, King Dedede had his infamous chain throws, and Bowser is the only "agile" super heavy today.

This is where the big boys rank from best to worst, according to most people:

1.
2-5. (These four are always interchanging, but are usually considered not worth touching)

 

[Deleted member]

People underrate the hell out of DK in this thread. The idea of him being worse than Zard in the long run of this meta is complete nonsense. I think DK is mid and that's as far as it goes, but the character has more to him than just getting grabs.

Up tilt is a frame 5, intangible move with great range that combos into itself and kills, jab and dtilt are good pokes that convert into grab and he probably has one of the best bairs in the game still. Say what you want, but his reward off grab is still a threat and gives him an option to beat shields (if Headbutt and Hand Slap weren't memes they'd also help).

He has the best air mobility of all the superheavies and the best jumpsquat, and his frame data for the most part is decent especially in proportion to his reach. His out of shield options and ledge game are ****, but if anything it's what truly holds him back besides well, being a superheavy. Is Bowser better at this point? Yeah, I'll concede. But him and DK are still the only ones that are viable at all at high level play. HIKARU still gets good results with the character and his wins are nothing to sneeze at.

 

[bc1910]

owed a lot to MU-specific bull**** and that spotdodge.

He ended up being pretty unviable regardless.

 

[JayE]

People underrate the hell out of DK in this thread. The idea of him being worse than Zard in the long run of this meta is complete nonsense. I think DK is mid and that's as far as it goes, but the character has more to him than just getting grabs.

Up tilt is a frame 5, intangible move with great range that combos into itself and kills, jab and dtilt are good pokes that convert into grab and he probably has one of the best bairs in the game still. Say what you want, but his reward off grab is still a threat and gives him an option to beat shields (if Headbutt and Hand Slap weren't memes they'd also help).

He has the best air mobility of all the superheavies and the best jumpsquat, and his frame data for the most part is decent especially in proportion to his reach. His out of shield options and ledge game are ****, but if anything it's what truly holds him back besides well, being a superheavy. Is Bowser better at this point? Yeah, I'll concede. But him and DK are still the only ones that are viable at all at high level play. HIKARU still gets good results with the character and his wins are nothing to sneeze at.

Yeah DK is pretty underrated. He has a pretty good range, great kill moves, a grab kill confirm. The thing is people see Bowser's grab game to be better than DK's, which may be the case, but DK isn't bad at all. In fact he probably has some of the best grabs in the game. Maybe its because Bowser's up throw to up air is easier to pull of than DK's Ding Dong.

 

[TDK]

The Super Heavies just don't work in 1v1. They play like they're meant for FFA battles. Not sure if ,, and count, since they're widely considered the only good super heavies in the entire series. Snake had his DACUS and excellent non-freefall recovery, King Dedede had his infamous chain throws, and Bowser is the only "agile" super heavy today.

This is where the big boys rank from best to worst, according to most people:

1.
2-5. (These four are always interchanging, but are usually considered not worth touching)

I'd do this:

1.

2.

3-5.

 

[Fenny]

I'd do this:

1.

2.

3-5.

I'd still put Zard above the latter two tbh

The fact he's seeing any kind of representation whatsoever is enough for me to acknowledge hid potential to be somewhat useful as a CP, even if he usually ends up getting mollywhopped

Bowser's grab game being dumb isn't new, but to be honest it wasn't until Nairo started going on a rampage with him in the last few tournaments that I saw what he was capable of in good hands. I guess there's also LordMix and DinOnFire, and Riddle to a lesser extent, but not to the level of success as seen recently. Wouldn't go so far as to call him top 15 because he's still a glutton for punishment in the disadvantage, but imo he's unarguably the best of the superheavies. Having overall better buttons than them, his grab game being silly and benefitting from the game's rage mechanic more than almost anyone in the game due to his survivability really helps his case.

 

[Deleted member]

People underrate the hell out of DK in this thread. The idea of him being worse than Zard in the long run of this meta is complete nonsense. I think DK is mid and that's as far as it goes, but the character has more to him than just getting grabs.

Up tilt is a frame 5, intangible move with great range that combos into itself and kills, jab and dtilt are good pokes that convert into grab and he probably has one of the best bairs in the game still. Say what you want, but his reward off grab is still a threat and gives him an option to beat shields (if Headbutt and Hand Slap weren't memes they'd also help).

He has the best air mobility of all the superheavies and the best jumpsquat, and his frame data for the most part is decent especially in proportion to his reach. His out of shield options and ledge game are ****, but if anything it's what truly holds him back besides well, being a superheavy. Is Bowser better at this point? Yeah, I'll concede. But him and DK are still the only ones that are viable at all at high level play. HIKARU still gets good results with the character and his wins are nothing to sneeze at.

This! I don't care if Bowser is better, but calling DK worse than any of the the other three super heavies or just straight up terrible is bull****. He's mid tier for a reason, stop throwing trash at him.

 

[SaltyKracka]

1.
2-5. (These four are always interchanging, but are usually considered not worth touching)

This! I don't care if Bowser is better, but calling DK worse than any of the the other three super heavies or just straight up terrible is bull****. He's mid tier for a reason, stop throwing trash at him.

???????????????

 

[williamsga555]

Dedede is literally a kirby boss in Smash bros.

Slow, Strong, Telegraphed, takes lots of hits, and has some trick that can be redirected against him.

The problem is Kirby is baby's first platformer, so the design kind of fails competitively because he's literally designed to be easy to beat.

This is exactly why I think Dedede is one of the best designed characters in the game beyond a competitive standpoint. He represents his original self almost flawlessly. Playing Dedede feels exactly like one would imagine playing Dedede to feel like, coming from the games he's in.

His design is miserable for competitive smash purposes, but absolutely brilliant in all other respects, and is a big reason why he's still getting played at all by people in the scene. Dude's fun and hits those fanservice notes perfectly.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

And I'm just going to shut up here, people are going off getting triggered when their mains are taken into account. I've already been triggered for the same reason so all i'd be doing is adding one more person to the ****storm. Fenny did all the arguing for my main anyways (thank you) so i'll leave it at that.

 

[Dagon97]

I'd do this:

1.

2.

3-5.

I think DK is better than Bowser because he gets more damage per opening, he also has an easier time getting down

 

[Dre89]

I think DK is better than Bowser because he gets more damage per opening, he also has an easier time getting down

Bowser has significantly better landing options and ledge game. DK is only better offstage.

 

[Deleted member]

???????????????

This is just my opinion on what the general consensus is on the super heavies. Seeing as you post something like this every time I mention them, we can just end the super heavy topic here, because to me, you (no offense, btw) make it seem like I don't know what I'm talking about.

 

[Shollyboster]

Honestly, I think Bowser is high B to mid A tier.

I also think Bowser is at a slight disadvantage with Sheik. Not a total dead matchup for him. Tough guy with rage = dead Sheiks.

 

[Rizen]

The first Kirby game on GB was challenging. You couldn't copy abilities so bosses had to create stars to be damaged. Squeak Squad was when Kirby Games started to be aimed at younger audiences.

Speaking from the perspective of Link, I'd rather fight Bowser than DK. DK's frame data and mobility are better than Bowser's. He has an easier time breaching Link's camping and is scarier to land against. Mobility+Bair is always a threat even on platforms.

 

[Deleted member]

The first Kirby game on GB was challenging. You couldn't copy abilities so bosses had to create stars to be damaged. Squeak Squad was when Kirby Games started to be aimed at younger audiences.

Speaking from the perspective of Link, I'd rather fight Bowser than DK. DK's frame data and mobility are better than Bowser's. He has an easier time breaching Link's camping and is scarier to land against. Mobility+Bair is always a threat even on platforms.

HIKARU beat T 2-0 recently, his DK is so aggressive it's ridiculous.

 

[JB333]

Holiday Heist 2 (MI, 73 entrants) https://smash.gg/tournament/holiday-heist-2/events/wii-u-singles/brackets

1. Zinoto
2. ????
3. Mystearica
4. SETHsational
5. Regralht
5. LOE1
7. Ozone
7. Nero



The character diversity is real.

There were other PR players there too: Xane, Ksev, and Smasher1001 are the most notable players that didn't make top 8.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Generally speaking.

Bowser, DK and Charizard are the ones with competitive value as they get results somewhat consistently.

Dedede and Ganondorf are the ones that dont get that.

Putting them in exact orders is semantics at this point.

 

[Wtfwasthat]

DK is so underrated in this thread. He has representation because Hikaru and DKwill do pretty well with this character. He has amazing tilts making for safe ground pokes which can also lead into grabs. Grab combos at any percent, and one of, if not the best throw kill confirm in the game. Ridiculous pivot grab range and great edgeguarding from his bair and good air mobility.

He has his flaws such as his terrible ledge options and inability to land but he is more than just a character with a kill throw