Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[R3D3MON]

Can you actually contribute and stop posting as if you’re in Twitch chat?

I'm describing the behavior of the general S4 community. From the C. Zack incident to this thread blowing up any time Salem wins anything, it's both funny and pathetic as all hell.

If you don't like my comment you are free to not respond or leave

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

@Rizen He means that DHD is not a bad character at all, its just he has bad MU's vs some really popular characters

He's one of those character's that if DLC didn't exist, he would be High tier along with and a lesser extant

Toon Link has good matchups against most DLC characters and is arguably high tier right now though

 

[TDK]

Toon Link has good matchups against most DLC characters and is arguably high tier right now though

Doesn't Toon Link get murdered by Cloud? I also thought his matchups vs Corrin and Mewtwo weren't great, but I'm not super informed on him.

Oh, and GTX Pools are out. 3 advance.
G1: ZeRo vs Locus , DarkShad in losers
G2: Nairo vs Mr. E , Xzax in losers
G3: MKLeo vs JK , JJROCKETS in losers
G4: Mistake vs Charliedaking , PiXL in losers
G5: Mr. R vs Zinoto , Tyrant in losers
G6: Ally vs Elegant , Sells in losers
G7: ESAM vs Falln , BaSK 3xA in losers
G8: ANTi vs Fatality , Vermillion in losers
H1: Tweek vs Zenyou , Legit in losers
H2: Salem vs Lima , Captain L in losers
H3: Larry Lurr vs NAKAT , DSS in losers
H4: VoiD vs Marss , Mew2King in losers (In the likely event of M2K dropping, TSS would make it out)
H5: Dabuz vs Raito , Day in losers
H6: Kmorikiri vs Cosmos , Blank in losers
H7: Abadango vs Samsora (>.<), Ozone in losers
H8: Captain Zack vs MVD , BestNess in losers

And you can't mention great players being held back by their character choice without mentioning Earth and .

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

This applies to Zairs too, as they're considered to not be projectiles but rather disjoints. It's dangerous to Zair zone Bayo but safe against other counters due to the distance and low damage. *grumbles*

Against Bayonetta's who are not aware of that, many players can still get away with throwing out their Zair or if Bayonetta chooses another option that Zair can interrupt.

 

[blackghost]

toonlink may have good mu but theres almost no matches or results to even analyze at a high level for toon link as far as i know. the character has a representation issue at this point

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Hyuga or Zan? Those are the two Toon Link players that just popped in my head.

 

[ぱみゅ]

If anything, Smash 4 isn't unforgiving enough. This is the game that has historically given players tons of leeway for mistakes. It's why autopilot is still prevalent at the top level. I think, to a degree, Bayo by her nature, has forced the meta to try to optimize punishes. I've seen more Sheiks throw Fsmash in the last few months than I have in the last three years.

I mean, this isn't Melee where you will almost always lose a stock for messing up. It's also not a traditional fighter, where you can lose 50% of your bar for an over extension. Or, like in Tekken, just straight up lose a round for a choosing a poor neutral option.

Maybe the issue is that it isn't consistently forgiving or unforgiving.
Sometimes you can roll into Roy's Fsmash and die at 30, or get your shield broken and the opponent fails to punish hard enough they end in a Smash Highlights Youtube Channel.
Sm4sh is a pretty wonky game.

I'm describing the behavior of the general S4 community. From the C. Zack incident to this thread blowing up any time Salem wins anything, it's both funny and pathetic as all hell.

If you don't like my comment you are free to not respond or leave

Fortunately, my red magic gives me a third option: discourage posts with no real contribution by infracting them.
With that, we hopefully won't be doing many more of them and improve the overall quality of the conversation.

Hyuga or Zan? Those are the two Toon Link players that just popped in my head.

Ri-Ma, Hayato and Sigma.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

toonlink may have good mu but theres almost no matches or results to even analyze at a high level for toon link as far as i know. the character has a representation issue at this point

As far as the Bayonetta MU, Sigma from Japan has won three sets against ikep.

 

[Kofu]

Hyuga or Zan? Those are the two Toon Link players that just popped in my head.

I've seen yeti pop up more recently. Not exactly sure of his skill level but he made it out of pools at SCR Saga.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Hyuga or Zan? Those are the two Toon Link players that just popped in my head.

There's also Ri-Ma and Sigma

 

[Minordeth]

Maybe the issue is that it isn't consistently forgiving or unforgiving.
Sometimes you can roll into Roy's Fsmash and die at 30, or get your shield broken and the opponent fails to punish hard enough they end in a Smash Highlights Youtube Channel.
Sm4sh is a pretty wonky game.

Yeah, I won't argue the wonk. At the same time, everyone knows those tools exist; that you got away with bad rolls before, means you need to be aware of your luck and stop autopiloting. It's why I'm glad Bayo exists. By her very existence, she makes people make the most of those little windows to punish her and raises the defensive game.

do you think children would play a game that lets you get away with 0-deathing an opponent just for making one mistake?

Yes? Pretty much all of us that are in the FGC and are... of a certain age... started in the arcades when we were kids. Better players (not to mention 90s "A.I.") were unforgiving. But! you got the sense that the game you were playing was bigger than what you could do.

It was like better players could do magic. They were part of a different game being played. An even cooler game. When you got zero to death'd from some elaborate combo you would either go play something else out of frustration, or you would want to figure out how to do that same thing. You knew you could have access to that same magic, because those older kids had to have learned that stuff, too. And once you learned more, you could start winning.

It hasn't changed much. Young kids still get into Melee and Mahvel and Tekken. Kids are weird man. They like to win, too. They like to do cool stuff, even if losing is brutal. Tons of kids are gonna get into fighting games from that new Dragon Ball game, not even understanding they are getting into a freakin' Arc Systems Works game.

Don't underestimate kids, man.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Yeah, I won't argue the wonk. At the same time, everyone knows those tools exist; that you got away with bad rolls before, means you need to be aware of your luck and stop autopiloting.

I agree with the need to stop autopiloting. I read this article yesterday (https://drunkardshade.com/2017/05/2...s-of-reducing-the-skill-gap-by-core-a-gaming/) and now I'm thinking that the "Smash 4 Factor", alongside rage mechanic, are being used as an excuse/john.

 

[Minordeth]

I agree with the need to stop autopiloting. I read this article yesterday (https://drunkardshade.com/2017/05/2...s-of-reducing-the-skill-gap-by-core-a-gaming/) and now I'm thinking that the "Smash 4 Factor", alongside rage mechanic, are being used as an excuse/john.

Yup. I've said it before, but Smash 4 is complex... under the hood. It has a bizarre combination of a low "hard execution" floor, integral mechanics that are purposefully obscured, a largely forgiving engine, and a vast collection of MUs, coupled with reasonably good balance (in part due to strong tools throughout the cast).

Because of all those factors, it requires a vast amount of every other kind of skill to be good at at the top level. This requires a long post, but we aren't really close to what true top level play looks like. The things that that article talks about, in terms of "skill" are things that are still developing at the top level.

Smash 4 has yet to have our version of a Hungrybox, who sticks to a defensive game plan to win no matter what, or an Armada, who has a systematic way of studying and practicing. There will be, though. It's a matter of time, at this point.

 

[Emblem Lord]

do you think children would play a game that lets you get away with 0-deathing an opponent just for making one mistake?

Man **** these casual ass children

 

[The-Technique]

Yup. I've said it before, but Smash 4 is complex... under the hood. It has a bizarre combination of a low "hard execution" floor, integral mechanics that are purposefully obscured, a largely forgiving engine, and a vast collection of MUs, coupled with reasonably good balance (in part due to strong tools throughout the cast).

Because of all those factors, it requires a vast amount of every other kind of skill to be good at at the top level. This requires a long post, but we aren't really close to what true top level play looks like. The things that that article talks about, in terms of "skill" are things that are still developing at the top level.

Smash 4 has yet to have our version of a Hungrybox, who sticks to a defensive game plan to win no matter what, or an Armada, who has a systematic way of studying and practicing. There will be, though. It's a matter of time, at this point.

I always thought Dabuz fit the mold of Hungrybox (embodying defensive play), Zero as Armada (consistently the best in the world) and Nairo as Mango (fan favorite, hyper aggressive playstyle)

 

[Nathan Richardson]

And this forum up and died, but seriously isn't this game better than the majority? I know that the author was pretty fed up and thought pandering to the hardcore crowd was a mistake when he sent out Brawl (that's what I read anyways), but honestly as long as luck isn't a factor don't we have the best version of this game currently? I know it can always be improved but still.

 

[soniczx123]

And this forum up and died, but seriously isn't this game better than the majority? I know that the author was pretty fed up and thought pandering to the hardcore crowd was a mistake when he sent out Brawl (that's what I read anyways), but honestly as long as luck isn't a factor don't we have the best version of this game currently? I know it can always be improved but still.

Died?

 

[Routa]

I have heard people saying that Tr4sh is in fact worst one (or 2nd worst) from the smash family. Tr4sh often gets criticized by Brawl barons and Melee players for having less depth in neutral and in combo game.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Not even sh*tposting here, legitimate question:

When is the next version of the tier list likely to be released?

We're kind of going in circles a bit here. Current tier list is looking a bit stale right now. Would give us something fresh to dig our teeth into.

 

[|RK|]

Respectfully... are these tier lists even relevant? We always get new stuff to talk about after a tournament OR some top player releases their own chart or tier list.

Doesn't really feel like these tier lists have the weight I once thought they had. On top of that, we have the PGR tier list. That's just IMO though

 

[Y2Kay]

My predictions for next tier list

• ZSS will rise a little bit
• Ryu will drop some
• Marth drops some
• Greninja will not move at all.

 

[R3D3MON]

And this forum up and died, but seriously isn't this game better than the majority? I know that the author was pretty fed up and thought pandering to the hardcore crowd was a mistake when he sent out Brawl (that's what I read anyways), but honestly as long as luck isn't a factor don't we have the best version of this game currently? I know it can always be improved but still.

Getting rid of mechanical and execution depth in a fighting game is pretty much a death-sentence for the game's long-term future. Along with weird tech properties and air dodging somehow becoming even better than in Brawl (like wtf why???), this game is definitely the worst competitive version out of the franchise.

When brawl meta knight has way more interesting character depth than probably the entire S4 roster combined, you know something is very wrong.


Pretty good for casual *******-around, I guess.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Tier list prediction time?

- Now should be where she is currently at may even place higher than Marth

All should for sure trend upwards

Will probably trend downwards (maybe I stopped paying attention but where has Meta Knight gone?)

Everyone else will probably remain relatively close to their previous placing. Main bias aside I think should go up slightly his results have been good all year.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I think tier lists are only important if you care about them or believe them. Or even bring up a conversation centered around using them as facts.

I'm suprised to hear talk about this thread dying when usually I see a spike in activity around upsets, every player's tier lists, more upsets, and characters people see a ton in bracket/on stream dominating or get a lot of hype, attention, or hate.

Is it because I shared that article and part of what I see the thread usually talk about may now sound dumb, trivial, or boring?

I have heard people saying that Tr4sh is in fact worst one (or 2nd worst) from the smash family. Tr4sh often gets criticized by Brawl barons and Melee players for having less depth in neutral and in combo game.

The reason I believe (or rather bandwagon this guy's opinion is because it makes sense to me) other smash games see smash 4 as "less in-depth" is because this game removed or toned down what they consider to be the heart of a competitive smash brothers game, and since their preferred way of playing/winning is no longer available or is as good/viable/optimal as it used to be, that game gets shunned, ridiculed, and abandonded (read as "stay far away from").

For those of you who did not check out the article I shared, here are some paragraphs that I found that I think relate to the smash scene very well as a whole.

Note: The article that I linked is a response to Core A Gaming's video "The Consequences of Reducing the Skill Gap". The video covers Street Fighter, Smash 4, Melee maybe (I do not know who the player is in the interview that takes a jab at Smash 4 to start a conversation when Melee has also been through the same situation), and Guilty Gear.

When I read the article, I followed the instructions (watching the video for a 2nd time) and when Core A Gaming showed brief pictures of different articles, I would pause the video, Google them, read the whole thing (except for the smash 4 video and the smashboards thread, not including the first post; I stopped after a while of reading other posts below it), and resumed the video to try and get the big picture.

Once the author got to the part of individually talking about each point that was made in the video, I would replay that part of the video and then read what the author had to say about it to get a better understanding.

The paragraphs below are spoilers (to me) for the article if anyone wants to it read it in full for the first time to get the full experience.

Note: The paragraphs are out of order from the article.


Paragraph 8 of the article.


"And yet a large portion of the video only talks about hard execution (of the first type mentioned) and implies that hard execution is the main factor that makes a game interesting for the hardcore players. Surely there are many execution fans out there, but many others find the genre appealing despite the execution, and not because of it."

This screams Melee and Project M to me.


Paragraph 21 of the article.


"Gamerbee: Complains that he can’t express himself because optimized combos are easy. Umm… so what? Why is he looking for “combo self expression” in a fighting game with short and unversatile combos? The problem isn’t execution but wanting a Street Fighter to provide you with things you can easily get from other games that are more suitable for it. Also, why can’t he express himself in other ways than combos? Why not in how he played during neutral? That’s the most obvious difference I spot when I watch different top players of the character I main in various games."

Also screams Melee to me and to a lesser extent, Project M.

I think this is the exact thinking the Melee community has of Smash 4.


Paragraphs 19 and 20 of the article.


"FChamp: Talks about closing the gap but doesn’t mention how exactly. It later continues into talking about easier combos. The combo being easy wasn’t the thing that made you get hit in the first place… Now you are paying for your mistakes by more people, not just that one guy with godlike execution. How is that a bad thing if you wanted a deep game that will push you to your limits? If the game is flawed, then it has to do with other factors first and foremost, and people should try to define those. The lack of execution requirements only makes existing qualities more apparent than usual.

Also, Nage started playing Guilty Gear in 2009. Other players have been playing the game at high levels 7 years prior. Does him being a top player mean the game suddenly started sucking? That the “skill gap” got shorter? Or does it simply mean the dude performs well? It’s really condescending to imply the new talent, who work just as hard as you, only win because there’s something wrong with the game."

This screams to me the Diddy bandwagon effect until the nerf that patched him; alongside the rise of players who the community finally payed attention to or first started to hear of, when Cloud and Bayonetta were added to the roster.

I have seen a lot of arguing and complaining over the latter.

If anyone is now interested in reading the article and watching the video for the 2nd time (or first if you have not seen it before), here is another link if you do not want to scroll up again.

Link: https://drunkardshade.com/2017/05/2...s-of-reducing-the-skill-gap-by-core-a-gaming/

Edit: Fixed a spacing error above in the first "Note:" section.

 

[Lord Dio]

Imo, large shifting of high tier. 2-3 mid tiers coming in (the 3 grapplers), shifting of arrangements.
High tiers have either been doing well (peach, corrin, pika, falcon), or haven't been seen a lot (tink, mk, mega man)

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Getting rid of mechanical and execution depth in a fighting game is pretty much a death-sentence for the game's long-term future. Along with weird tech properties and air dodging somehow becoming even better than in Brawl (like wtf why???), this game is definitely the worst competitive version out of the franchise.

When brawl meta knight has way more interesting character depth than probably the entire S4 roster combined, you know something is very wrong.


Pretty good for casual *******-around, I guess.

It's only a death sentence if that is what you feel is needed to make a game competitive.
There are others skills in fighting games besides the execution barrier.
Execution is not the only skill in fighting games.

Here is paragraphs 5-8 of the article I linked above if you would like to read it.

"The title of the video implies it’s going to be talking about “reducing the skill gap”, and it mostly criticizes SFV for allegedly doing so.

I don’t like the use of the word “skill” here because it implies that the skill in a game is some singular thing and that whole thing was reduced, which is wrong. In fact, fighting games consist of several different types of skills, with each game and even character in the genre requiring varying amounts of each skill. Skills such as execution, knowledge, pattern recognition, appraisal (the ability to recognize what’s good and what’s not within an unfamiliar rule set and situation), and more.

Even each skill can be divided into different forms which all come into play. For example, ‘execution’ can be about being able to pull off a hard maneuver, but it can also be about doing that 300th hadouken in a row without any input error, or be about being able to keep your usual level of execution even under pressure. A player can be good at one of these but not at the other two, and that’s before getting into the other skills required to succeed.

And yet a large portion of the video only talks about hard execution (of the first type mentioned) and implies that hard execution is the main factor that makes a game interesting for the hardcore players. Surely there are many execution fans out there, but many others find the genre appealing despite the execution, and not because of it."

 

[Routa]

Tr4sh's lack of depth doesn't have to do with lack of demanding execution, but rather lack different options. In melee there are a lot of situations where multiple options are great both in neutral and combo game. Brawl in the other hand might lack the complexity of Melee's combo game, but what it has is really demanding and more open ended neutral to work with. It is extremely difficult to both get in and prevent opponent from getting in due to multiple mixups and baits (Wario's, G&W's and MK's neutral are a good example). And here lies the Tr4sh's issue. In many cases you tend to go for option X 'cause it has lowest risk and highest reward. Why should you go for combo Y when combo X is far more reliable and has higher reward? Why should I use option Y in neutral when option X covers more than half of the approach options and is extremely safe to throw out?
I have heard a lot of these kind of "complains" about Tr4sh from players who have switched to Tr4sh from Melee and Brawl.

Sorry for my bad english. I hope you get what I'm trying to say. Also "tr4sh" sounds a lot nicer than "sm4sh".

 

[R3D3MON]

Tr4sh's lack of depth doesn't have to do with lack of demanding execution, but rather lack different options. In melee there are a lot of situations where multiple options are great both in neutral and combo game. Brawl in the other hand might lack the complexity of Melee's combo game, but what it has is really demanding and more open ended neutral to work with. It is extremely difficult to both get in and prevent opponent from getting in due to multiple mixups and baits (Wario's, G&W's and MK's neutral are a good example). And here lies the Tr4sh's issue. In many cases you tend to go for option X 'cause it has lowest risk and highest reward. Why should you go for combo Y when combo X is far more reliable and has higher reward? Why should I use option Y in neutral when option X covers more than half of the approach options and is extremely safe to throw out?
I have heard a lot of these kind of "complains" about Tr4sh from players who have switched to Tr4sh from Melee and Brawl.

Sorry for my bad english. I hope you get what I'm trying to say. Also "tr4sh" sounds a lot nicer than "sm4sh".

IMO this comes directly from the lack of technical depth in the game. Every situation is essentially reduced down to basic movements and inputs.

 

[TigerBizNiz]

Will probably trend downwards (maybe I stopped paying attention but where has Meta Knight gone?)

Well, I've seen couple of Metaknight secondaries here and there if you that accounts to anything. Abadango, Tyroy, and (to a lesser extent recently) MK Leo use him for certain characters/players. Aside from Abadango (Abadango vs Samsora), Metaknight's results aren't as subpar as they used to be.

I don't know about Metaknight "mains" though.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

It's only a death sentence if that is what you feel is needed to make a game competitive.
There are others skills in fighting games besides the execution barrier.
Execution is not the only skill in fighting games.

Here is paragraphs 5-8 of the article I linked above if you would like to read it.

"The title of the video implies it’s going to be talking about “reducing the skill gap”, and it mostly criticizes SFV for allegedly doing so.

I don’t like the use of the word “skill” here because it implies that the skill in a game is some singular thing and that whole thing was reduced, which is wrong. In fact, fighting games consist of several different types of skills, with each game and even character in the genre requiring varying amounts of each skill. Skills such as execution, knowledge, pattern recognition, appraisal (the ability to recognize what’s good and what’s not within an unfamiliar rule set and situation), and more.

Even each skill can be divided into different forms which all come into play. For example, ‘execution’ can be about being able to pull off a hard maneuver, but it can also be about doing that 300th hadouken in a row without any input error, or be about being able to keep your usual level of execution even under pressure. A player can be good at one of these but not at the other two, and that’s before getting into the other skills required to succeed.

And yet a large portion of the video only talks about hard execution (of the first type mentioned) and implies that hard execution is the main factor that makes a game interesting for the hardcore players. Surely there are many execution fans out there, but many others find the genre appealing despite the execution, and not because of it."

Unfortunately it seems like execution is what a lot of the Melee players prefer even though half of the execution is from a glitch that wasn't fixed (wavedashing) because and this is the quote "The programmers spotted it and didn't think it was a big deal", I think the reason most melee people don't like sm4sh is because they can't carry over their skills from one version to the next, pros like Hungrybox for example.

 

[R3D3MON]

Unfortunately it seems like execution is what a lot of the Melee players prefer even though half of the execution is from a glitch that wasn't fixed (wavedashing) because and this is the quote "The programmers spotted it and didn't think it was a big deal", I think the reason most melee people don't like sm4sh is because they can't carry over their skills from one version to the next, pros like Hungrybox for example.

Buddy this isn't reddit. Take that "glitch" argument elsewhere kthxbye.

EDIT: Good thing Sakurai messed up because otherwise the franchise would have immediately died. S4 for GC sounds distasteful af

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

You can have plenty of depth without over the top combos and the need to press buttons really fast. Where Smash 4 may lack in technical depth it adds in other areas, more viable characters require a need to learn the intricacies of alot more characters their options, attributes and nuances and how they interact with your character, the human element is still there which includes mind games, emotions, player tendencies, habits, play styles so on and so on. It's a different game from Melee and Brawl and has a different kind of depth to it, whether you enjoy being able to overwhelm people in Melee with Fox tech skill to assist you weaknesses with neutral or whether you enjoy being able to play Fox in Smash 4 with your neutral talent without being held back by your lack of tech skill depends on.

I usually don't say stuff like this but you clearly don't enjoy this game so why are you even here in the first place?

Well, I've seen couple of Metaknight secondaries here and there if you that accounts to anything. Abadango, Tyroy, and (to a lesser extent recently) MK Leo use him for certain characters/players. Aside from Abadango (Abadango vs Samsora), Metaknight's results aren't as subpar as they used to be.

I don't know about Metaknight "mains" though.

I was more looking at his results he has a good handful of players but for a character who consistently ranks in the top 15 his results don't reflect this like they used to

 

[R3D3MON]

You can have plenty of depth without over the top combos and the need to press buttons really fast. Where Smash 4 may lack in technical depth it adds in other areas, more viable characters require a need to learn the intricacies of alot more characters their options, attributes and nuances and how they interact with your character, the human element is still there which includes mind games, emotions, player tendencies, habits, play styles so on and so on. It's a different game from Melee and Brawl and has a different kind of depth to it, whether you enjoy being able to overwhelm people in Melee with Fox tech skill to assist you weaknesses with neutral or whether you enjoy being able to play Fox in Smash 4 with your neutral talent without being held back by your lack of tech skill depends on.

I usually don't say stuff like this but you clearly don't enjoy this game so why are you even here in the first place?

I was more looking at his results he has a good handful of players but for a character who consistently ranks in the top 15 his results don't reflect this like they used to

That assumes previous smash games don't have "human elements". Bruh THIS ISN'T YOUTUBE COMMENT SECTION.

EDIT: I'm here to get a laugh out of every salty person in this thread complaining about Bayo or kill confirms

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Buddy this isn't reddit. Take that "glitch" argument elsewhere kthxbye.

It isn't an argument, check out this one article http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CasualCompetitiveConflict check the quote on what wavedashing exactly is "The conflict over it comes in because, unlike walking, wavedashing is not mentioned anywhere within the game or official sources due to being an unorthodox quirk in the physics engine".
Now I'm not saying we should never take advantage of things that pop up that the developers have missed (I mean for crying out loud everyone does it right?) but I'm not saying it for the sake of argument, I'm saying that maybe the fact that quote en quote 'casuals' can sometimes go toe to toe with 'competitives' because the skill set needed for sm4sh is completely different than in Melee, Project M, or Brawl is why they don't like sm4sh all that much.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

To me I used to believe that melee players would all gravitate to Shulk since he has a multitude of frame perfect techs. Maybe there are some melee players who do just that but have not become popular on a global/national scale. I cannot wait to see it one day.

 

[R3D3MON]

It isn't an argument, check out this one article http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CasualCompetitiveConflict check the quote on what wavedashing exactly is "The conflict over it comes in because, unlike walking, wavedashing is not mentioned anywhere within the game or official sources due to being an unorthodox quirk in the physics engine".
Now I'm not saying we should never take advantage of things that pop up that the developers have missed (I mean for crying out loud everyone does it right?) but I'm not saying it for the sake of argument, I'm saying that maybe the fact that quote en quote 'casuals' can sometimes go toe to toe with 'competitives' because the skill set needed for sm4sh is completely different than in Melee, Project M, or Brawl.

We all know that. No new information there.

Also you just described the essential problem with S4 at the end of your post. The skillset isn't different at all, in fact you need less overall skill to get by in S4 since there is no technical barrier while melee, PM, and Smash 64 requires both technical and mental capacity to be a good player. The fact that significantly lower skilled players can somehow knock out higher skilled players is a terrible sign of this game. Just look at all the goddamn upsets.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

We all know that. No new information there.

Also you just described the essential problem with S4 at the end of your post. The skillset isn't different at all, in fact you need less overall skill to get by in S4 since there is no technical barrier while melee, PM, and Smash 64 requires both technical and mental capacity to be a good player. The fact that significantly lower skilled players can somehow knock out higher skilled players is a terrible sign of this game. Just look at all the goddamn upsets.

Maybe, but then again the player with quote en quote 'higher skill' still lost because the quote en quote 'lower skilled' player understood the workings of sm4sh better didn't they? Even mew2king has off days (and walks out to play more melee) the issue here is that the skill in melee does not apply to sm4sh. Not only do DI, SDI, spacing, and rage all have to be taken into account (is that even IN melee?) but it's a lot easier to panic or get trapped on autopilot and tricked into making a mistake if someone else catches on than it is in Melee.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Is this what you mean?

Because of all those factors, it requires a vast amount of every other kind of skill to be good at at the top level. This requires a long post, but we aren't really close to what true top level play looks like. The things that that article talks about, in terms of "skill" are things that are still developing at the top level.

Edit: Directed at R3demon

Edit 2: DI and SDI are in mele but not rage.

Top player habits being used against them besides not only the execution heavy players (read as other players in the game) is a good thing I think because that shows that their overpowered/cheap strategy can be seen by everyone, not just the good players who hide their strategies behind execution barriers.

Now foxtrotting in place for mindgames to scare the opponent, and perfect pivots come to mind.

 

[R3D3MON]

Maybe, but then again the player with quote en quote 'higher skill' still lost because the quote en quote 'lower skilled' player understood the workings of sm4sh better didn't they? Even mew2king has off days (and walks out to play more melee) the issue here is that the skill in melee does not apply to sm4sh. Not only do DI, SDI, spacing, and rage all have to be taken into account (is that even IN melee?) but it's a lot easier to panic or get trapped on autopilot and tricked into making a mistake if someone else catches on than it is in Melee.

Winning in Smash 4 doesn't really require "understanding the game" better, especially in a best-of-3 2-stock match setting.

Can you imagine Armada getting 49th at Genesis? Well, that's what Zero got at 2GGC: Civil War. Or can you imagine if Hungrybox got 33rd at Super Smash Con? That's what Dabuz got at SSC 2017. The list goes on and on...

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Winning in Smash 4 doesn't really require "understanding the game" better, especially in a best-of-3 2-stock match setting.

Can you imagine Armada getting 49th at Genesis? Well, that's what Zero got at 2GGC: Civil War. Or can you imagine if Hungrybox got 33rd at Super Smash Con? That's what Dabuz got at SSC 2017. The list goes on and on...

Honestly it simply sounds like you're salty because high skilled players aren't always coming in first in every game they play in and you're trying to figure out the reason why and are blaming the game itself for it. Which is pretty crazy, so players like Zero and Dabuz aren't allowed low placements?