MasterShake
Smash Lord
Yeah for how long Joe Mang?
-
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916 / Sacramento Smash: DP will never post here
- Thread starter MasterShake
- Start date
Reading thread. Too late at night. Will respond tomorrow. 
I definitely agree, Moon.
When I played Wolfy in friendlies at TAG, one of my first thoughts was "uh, what is he doing?" It sounds kind of funny at first, but in a finer sense it can be translated to "what does he want to do?" (what is his plan). From what I saw, that's what needs to be worked on. I'll explain. First of all, I'm not really sure what was going on here (was it indecision within the match, or was he actually paying attention to something outside of the game atm? seriously, I want to know, lol), but it exaggerates what can actually be seen elsewhere, which is movement without a goal. Basically, Wolfy, I summarize what you need to work on as, 1) some character knowledge (so you gain an idea of what you want to do to the opponent; i.e. learn what works), 2) observation, and 3) spacing. That's the order of importance (and of learning) you should give these and in what will make the most change in your game, but I'm going to address these backwards (for a reason).
First of all, to clear up common misconception: good spacing isn't just, "Oh, I hit the opponent with this part of my hitbox." It more has to do with your character being a certain distance from the opponent's. This "certain distance" is the ideal distance where you are far enough from them that they can't hit you, but you're close enough that you can move in and hit them once they miss an attack or make some other mistake. This needs to take into account their movement/attack abilities along with your reaction time. In other words, it's important to make the distinction between "if he swings with move A right now he'll miss" and, "if he dashes/jumps forward right now (and swings) I'll be able to respond to it in time."
This brings us to point 2, observation. If you look back at the start of the above match, I made two mistakes right away: rolling on the platform on accident when I tried to waveland off (and dodging), and totally missing a grab. I could have been punished hard from both things, but you weren't around. (This partly has to do with that spacing idea; you need to be close enough to capitalize before the opportunity is gone. This is more pertinent with lower lag moves like tilts.) Obviously it's important to watch your opponent. So the question of watching is, what for, and how do you do that mid-match when everything is happening so fast? The key to the second part is right there in the question: "what for?" If you can "prep" your mind to keep a look-out for specific things, it will allow you to react much faster to the occasion because you'll already have a solution in mind. On a more general scale this could simply be watching for your opponent to be in lag (or have poor stage position, though that is a little more advanced).
So what are some of these "specific things" you're looking for? Well, to know that I think it would be a good idea to start considering character specifics, including match-up specifics. Now I'm not saying you need to learn everything about this right off the bat, just some stuff, to get started. It's important for both observation and punishment. In short, if you know what tactics or combos that your opponent's character can do to your character work well, then you can expect (depending on your assumption of how good the opponent is) they'll want to do those things to you. By having a response in mind for some of them before the match starts, and watching for them, you'll be able to react accordingly instantly without having to process it mid-match. This doesn't have to be one specific move, but can work with more general things, like watching for 'jump >aerial', and responding with 'jump out of way before he gets to me and come back down with an aerial of my own now that he's just missed.' Or for example, knowing you can be chain-grabbed at a certain percent, and you're at that percent, it would be a good idea to watch for them to grab and be already thinking about dodging. Now as for the "punishment" part of watching your opponent, i.e. the part where you do tactics or combos to them. Learn what your character can do to the opponent's character; get down what works at what percents. This lets you execute them at a moment's notice, and allows you to better understand their options and therefore what can happen next (which prepares you so you can react quicker). This also maximizes what you get out of their mistakes. If you can do more to them when they mess up than they can do to you when you mess up, you have the upper hand. Likewise, obviously comboing them minimizes the time spent during the part of the game where they can damage you (the part where you're both trying to figure out how to approach/hit the other).
So, movement is a means for two things: to be unpredictable and safe, and to get into an advantageous position (usually you're trying to do these simultaneously). You could look at this as spacing + observation. So then knowledge (punishment) takes over in the moment you strike.
All of this will take practice to get down, but the knowledge part is probably the easiest to build up because it's mostly learning the timing for things, ranges, what works at given percents, etc. Then you can shift your focus more to the observation part. And then working on the spacing aspect will naturally follow.
Boy, that was a lot more than I expected to write! O_o I feel like I should make this into a thread now, lol.
When I played Wolfy in friendlies at TAG, one of my first thoughts was "uh, what is he doing?" It sounds kind of funny at first, but in a finer sense it can be translated to "what does he want to do?" (what is his plan). From what I saw, that's what needs to be worked on. I'll explain. First of all, I'm not really sure what was going on here (was it indecision within the match, or was he actually paying attention to something outside of the game atm? seriously, I want to know, lol), but it exaggerates what can actually be seen elsewhere, which is movement without a goal. Basically, Wolfy, I summarize what you need to work on as, 1) some character knowledge (so you gain an idea of what you want to do to the opponent; i.e. learn what works), 2) observation, and 3) spacing. That's the order of importance (and of learning) you should give these and in what will make the most change in your game, but I'm going to address these backwards (for a reason).
First of all, to clear up common misconception: good spacing isn't just, "Oh, I hit the opponent with this part of my hitbox." It more has to do with your character being a certain distance from the opponent's. This "certain distance" is the ideal distance where you are far enough from them that they can't hit you, but you're close enough that you can move in and hit them once they miss an attack or make some other mistake. This needs to take into account their movement/attack abilities along with your reaction time. In other words, it's important to make the distinction between "if he swings with move A right now he'll miss" and, "if he dashes/jumps forward right now (and swings) I'll be able to respond to it in time."
This brings us to point 2, observation. If you look back at the start of the above match, I made two mistakes right away: rolling on the platform on accident when I tried to waveland off (and dodging), and totally missing a grab. I could have been punished hard from both things, but you weren't around. (This partly has to do with that spacing idea; you need to be close enough to capitalize before the opportunity is gone. This is more pertinent with lower lag moves like tilts.) Obviously it's important to watch your opponent. So the question of watching is, what for, and how do you do that mid-match when everything is happening so fast? The key to the second part is right there in the question: "what for?" If you can "prep" your mind to keep a look-out for specific things, it will allow you to react much faster to the occasion because you'll already have a solution in mind. On a more general scale this could simply be watching for your opponent to be in lag (or have poor stage position, though that is a little more advanced).
So what are some of these "specific things" you're looking for? Well, to know that I think it would be a good idea to start considering character specifics, including match-up specifics. Now I'm not saying you need to learn everything about this right off the bat, just some stuff, to get started. It's important for both observation and punishment. In short, if you know what tactics or combos that your opponent's character can do to your character work well, then you can expect (depending on your assumption of how good the opponent is) they'll want to do those things to you. By having a response in mind for some of them before the match starts, and watching for them, you'll be able to react accordingly instantly without having to process it mid-match. This doesn't have to be one specific move, but can work with more general things, like watching for 'jump >aerial', and responding with 'jump out of way before he gets to me and come back down with an aerial of my own now that he's just missed.' Or for example, knowing you can be chain-grabbed at a certain percent, and you're at that percent, it would be a good idea to watch for them to grab and be already thinking about dodging. Now as for the "punishment" part of watching your opponent, i.e. the part where you do tactics or combos to them. Learn what your character can do to the opponent's character; get down what works at what percents. This lets you execute them at a moment's notice, and allows you to better understand their options and therefore what can happen next (which prepares you so you can react quicker). This also maximizes what you get out of their mistakes. If you can do more to them when they mess up than they can do to you when you mess up, you have the upper hand. Likewise, obviously comboing them minimizes the time spent during the part of the game where they can damage you (the part where you're both trying to figure out how to approach/hit the other).
So, movement is a means for two things: to be unpredictable and safe, and to get into an advantageous position (usually you're trying to do these simultaneously). You could look at this as spacing + observation. So then knowledge (punishment) takes over in the moment you strike.
All of this will take practice to get down, but the knowledge part is probably the easiest to build up because it's mostly learning the timing for things, ranges, what works at given percents, etc. Then you can shift your focus more to the observation part. And then working on the spacing aspect will naturally follow.
Boy, that was a lot more than I expected to write! O_o I feel like I should make this into a thread now, lol.
I have been working on the above mentioned things a little, and I noticed a bit more improvement when I played some friendlies with my buddy not too long ago. I have a couple of matches recorded, but I haven't split/edited them yet (if anyone wants to take a look at them, I'll upload them). The advice Moon gave really stuck in my head about controlling my character and playing slower, and recognizing the situation. I guess that's kind of been blending in with working on spacing and comprehension a bit more, since I don't flub as often now (I still need work, though), and I've been a bit more consistent with combos and actually being able to follow up (again, the only thing I have to base this on is my recent friendlies with my buddy, so I probably still need a lot of work). But the advice has been helping a lot and I feel a bit more aware of the situation and what I should be doing at certain moments, instead of running around the stage like a squirrel on crack, lol. That said, thanks a bunch for the advice. :D
MasterShake
Smash Lord
Wolfy this is what I do when I combo:
I try to hit my moves after the peak of my jump (I fastfall kind of at the same time, so the hit comes out and then I hit the ground). This minimizes lag time and maximizes the time the opponent is in lag.
and I move AS SOON AS I CAN AFTER LAG. This is just practice, any time I see my character in the standing animation after an L-cancel, that's how I know I need to be faster.
Even I need to work on these things, this is where I feel I'm slipping the most right now, and with a character like Falcon I feel like the above two things are mad important. Of course, that's not to say you should do one thing 100%, just practice those two things. Again, this is character control, and you have the tech skill to master this quickly. I believe in you Wolfy! AND YOU TOO JIM.
Editttttt: Oh and Wolfy this is something you specifically work on with Jerry. Jerry likes to roll a lot, and you can definitely combine your slower playing practice with this. I would suggest looking at the way he rolls when you do attacks and then try and read them! Punishing rolls feels so gooood.
I try to hit my moves after the peak of my jump (I fastfall kind of at the same time, so the hit comes out and then I hit the ground). This minimizes lag time and maximizes the time the opponent is in lag.
and I move AS SOON AS I CAN AFTER LAG. This is just practice, any time I see my character in the standing animation after an L-cancel, that's how I know I need to be faster.
Even I need to work on these things, this is where I feel I'm slipping the most right now, and with a character like Falcon I feel like the above two things are mad important. Of course, that's not to say you should do one thing 100%, just practice those two things. Again, this is character control, and you have the tech skill to master this quickly. I believe in you Wolfy! AND YOU TOO JIM.
Editttttt: Oh and Wolfy this is something you specifically work on with Jerry. Jerry likes to roll a lot, and you can definitely combine your slower playing practice with this. I would suggest looking at the way he rolls when you do attacks and then try and read them! Punishing rolls feels so gooood.
More rolls than an Italian bakery.
lol, in all seriousness, tho, he doesn't roll as much now. He plays a bit more offensively now. But his tech patterns and DI are fairly easy to read. And I've been exploiting that. I've been doing things like wavedash back or empty hops to try and bait reactions to see what he does, too.
lol, in all seriousness, tho, he doesn't roll as much now. He plays a bit more offensively now. But his tech patterns and DI are fairly easy to read. And I've been exploiting that. I've been doing things like wavedash back or empty hops to try and bait reactions to see what he does, too.
chenjesu
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2008
- Messages
- 247
It's nice to be able to hear the helpful advice without bearing the brunt of the criticism
Character control is something i've been thinking about (you got the peach trophy!). I mean, in most of our marth-peach matches, i just hang out in the air right in front of you. That is like the worst place to be vs. a marth. I don't know what i was thinking. Also going to try looking at those standing animation frames. There was some other stuff i forgot about. I think i am pretty good at punishing rolls and stuff
I am also pretty good at spacing but against a good marth i feel like TIMING is more important than spacing. I mean he can outrange you right???????? in all of his attacks. And most of his attacks come out really fast and then have hella lag.
need to change up my grab game, shield grab less and dash grab /fair grab more
the thing that will probably help me the most is looking at the standing animation frames tho
i mean
you can do anything from those frames
chenjesu
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2008
- Messages
- 247
oh also di
i have terrible di
also going to try doing regular short hops and l-cancels (to switch it up)
and generally speeding up my character
and not float camping all the time but jumping pressing down and then doing an aerial right after
so that people don't notice
that i have no lag
i have terrible di
also going to try doing regular short hops and l-cancels (to switch it up)
and generally speeding up my character
and not float camping all the time but jumping pressing down and then doing an aerial right after
so that people don't notice
that i have no lag
MasterShake
Smash Lord
Maybe me...
fuhnkyfresh
Smash Apprentice
hey now i want some advice too! muahahah.
ps i second that maybe ^^
ps i second that maybe ^^
MasterShake
Smash Lord
Fuhnky you're too good for me to help. You should hit up the falco boards for some critique.
fuhnkyfresh
Smash Apprentice
ookami msg me your address really quick? i wnt to see how far you are
and ok jesse lol
and
ok jesse lol
SNG
Smash Journeyman
hi guys! smash when i come back around the 8th of dec.?
MasterShake
Smash Lord
I think I am going to go. Fuhnky if you want to meet me somewhere I can get you (if I go).
What time is good Mr. Wolfy?
What time is good Mr. Wolfy?
I'm uploading a few matches. I'll edit with links when they're done!
DRGN (Samus) vs. Delphiki (IC) - Brinstar
DRGN (Falcon) vs. Delphiki (Fox) - Green Greens
DRGN (Zelda) vs. Aron (Fox) - FD
DRGN (Samus) vs. Aron (Falcon) - DL
Aron (Mario) vs. Delphiki (Fox) - FD
SNG, I'd like to play! I may have time the weekend you come up. Beyond that: the 13th and 15th, and then I'm out of school and should have plenty of time!
DRGN (Samus) vs. Delphiki (IC) - Brinstar
DRGN (Falcon) vs. Delphiki (Fox) - Green Greens
DRGN (Zelda) vs. Aron (Fox) - FD
DRGN (Samus) vs. Aron (Falcon) - DL
Aron (Mario) vs. Delphiki (Fox) - FD
SNG, I'd like to play! I may have time the weekend you come up. Beyond that: the 13th and 15th, and then I'm out of school and should have plenty of time!
fuhnkyfresh
Smash Apprentice
jesse i will probably be down for that! let me know!
GO AWAY SUNNY
where has aaron been? lol
GO AWAY SUNNY
where has aaron been? lol
fuhnkyfresh
Smash Apprentice
i think we just need to find drgns weakness
fuhnkyfresh
Smash Apprentice
wolfy message me your number because im 90% sure im gonna roll out there
MasterShake
Smash Lord
lmao dash attack to upsmash to lightning kick. Is Zelda mid tier or what guys.
fuhnkyfresh
Smash Apprentice
im gonna leave in about 30 min. stay there for about 3-4 hours maybe if thats ok. i can leave earlier if needed
ru5514n
Smash Ace
Zelda has one huge, glaring weakness:
she's zelda.
MasterShake
Smash Lord
We will see, won't we JIM!
I will also be completely free during winter break, so yay for that.
EDIT: I'm uploading the matches from tonight. Should be all up by tomorrow/Monday. Fuhnky, thanks for the awesome (and semi-awesome cuz I burned out at the end, lol) matches. :D
EDIT: I'm uploading the matches from tonight. Should be all up by tomorrow/Monday. Fuhnky, thanks for the awesome (and semi-awesome cuz I burned out at the end, lol) matches. :D
Did all you guys see dat sexy Mario combo? Aron might have to make a combo video!
I should have some time this week on Tuesday and Thursday again.
It's aggressive Kirbys.
Plus uthrow. Four hit combo, that kills?? Top tier.
Say that to her face! lol
I should have some time this week on Tuesday and Thursday again.
fuhnkyfresh
Smash Apprentice
thanks for havin me wolfy! and good looks on the uploadsss
MasterShake
Smash Lord
I'll be over tuesday. I can also meet anybody tonight + tomorrow.
Edit: HEY JIM I'm gonna try that shield SDI stuff next time we play. What fun!
Edit: HEY JIM I'm gonna try that shield SDI stuff next time we play. What fun!
ru5514n
Smash Ace
lol. I should try it, too. Cuz, y'know. Peach.
NintendoKing
Smash Champion
I wanna play melee but you guys rely on this damn website like it's the only way to communicate, EVER. Most of you I don't even have your numbers.
I rarely plan ahead when it comes to playing melee, and if I plan, I never follow through. Ya'll sacs need to give a brother a call or text for some melee.
I'm the ****ing Sacramento Jedi of melee, I don't need technical readouts to kill ****, I just feel it.
I rarely plan ahead when it comes to playing melee, and if I plan, I never follow through. Ya'll sacs need to give a brother a call or text for some melee.
I'm the ****ing Sacramento Jedi of melee, I don't need technical readouts to kill ****, I just feel it.
SNG
Smash Journeyman
has anyone played NK? are you as good as you say you are?? lol.
MasterShake
Smash Lord
NKNKNKNKNKNKNK
Lol I do only use smashboards. You should text me!
Oh and peach is NOT a dumb character
Lol I do only use smashboards. You should text me!
Oh and peach is NOT a dumb character