A Demon Questions Character Hype

[SexTornado]

We're talking about Samus. How would you plan on switching to ZSS mid-match? You can try the whole up/down taunt deal, but that would take far too long, and it'd be ridiculously hard to pull that off in a match.

Unless you play with smashballs. lulz

 

[Melomaniacal]

Unless you play with smashballs. lulz

We're talking about competitive play.

 

[DKKountry]

We're talking about competitive play.

No, we're talking about "friends in the basement" play. If this thread was about competitive play, it would be easily understood why some characters are *gasp* much worse than others.

 

[Melomaniacal]

No, we're talking about "friends in the basement" play. If this thread was about competitive play, it would be easily understood why some characters are *gasp* much worse than others.

Since when does the tier list (topic in discussion) apply to casual "friends in the basement" play? Almost never. It certainly doesn't apply to matches played with smashballs on.

 

[DKKountry]

Since when does the tier list (topic in discussion) apply to casual "friends in the basement" play? Almost never. It certainly doesn't apply to matches played with smashballs on.

'Twas sarcasm. Read the post again, starting with "If this thread was about competitive play..." That's where most of the sarcasm starts, although it's sprinkled evenly throughout the beginning part too.

 

[_Phloat_]

He is saying that if the topic creator understood competitive play, he wouldn't have made this topic. So, assuming the game is being played competitively is... eh...

 

[DKKountry]

^ you win the thread.

Phloat is now in the win bin. The rest of the thread can stay in the fail pail.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Alright, gotcha. My bad for not seeing your sarcasm, I thought you were on the same boat as the TC. Not an unreasonable assumption to make nowadays.

 

[sonic 12111]

I have to say, a good samus is really annoying and is hard to approach because of that z air and missles...

 

[_Phloat_]

^ you win the thread.

Phloat is now in the win bin. The rest of the thread can stay in the fail pail.

Yaaaay.

Where do you think viability ends on the tier list, guys?

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

:flame:
People are much more harsh than they should be... and of course I'm talking about compeditive play. I wouldn't be talking about a tierlist if I wanted to talk about regular play. And lots of things are HARD to do, but not completely impossible. I've seen some people who can do it while the enemy character is being turned into a Star. And they make it look so gosh darn easy...

But seriously, what is all of the hostility towards me and this thread? I'm asking for simple information, that's it. You don't have to be mean just for the pursuit of knowledge, even if it seems like arbitrary information. People continue to use characters like these, even in tournament matches, so I'm just curious as to what it is that holds them back.
:flame:

 

[Steel]

We may seem hostile because it's pretty easy to look at a character's tools compared with other characters to see that they suck.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

We may seem hostile because it's pretty easy to look at a character's tools compared with other characters to see that they suck.

:flame:
I know that there are few people that are going to stand up against anything Metaknight and Snake throws at them. But I'm mainly speaking about the characters themselves... if we compared everything to the SS and S tiers, then it'd be only at the B tier area that characters stop sucking, when it seems that "tournament viability" (whatever that means) stops right around the F tier....

But I really don't want to get into that type of conversation.... I'm just interested in knowing exactly what it is that is keeping each of these characters down. Things that the character has on it, not specifically things that other characters can do, unless it's something that is that exploitable.
:flame:

 

[Steel]

Let me rephrase that...

We may seem hostile because it's pretty easy to look at a character's tools to see that they suck.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

Let me rephrase that...

We may seem hostile because it's pretty easy to look at a character's tools to see that they suck.

:flame:
Then maybe I need glasses, because I honestly am having trouble seeing what sucks about Samus, Mario, and Lucas' tools (thank God Samus was in that list, or someone would have turned that into a horrible sex joke).

On paper, and in play, they don't seem to be bad characters. I've learned that Ganondorf sucks definsively, Falcon and Sonic are inaccurate, Link is fat, and Ike has trouble exploting his attacks.

But someone will have to explain Samus, Mario and Lucas to me. Samus definitely kills before 160%, has awesome aerial combos, and doesn't die as fast as she would seem to in that heavy armor (plus, she can turn into ZeroSuitSamus if she can make an opening, which is another beast to deal with all together). Mario has a very well rounded move set, and his specials aren't bad either. And Lucas seems pretty good too. I should probably ask about Ness as well, since his issues aren't necesarilly the same as Lucas'.

And you and Dk certainly do seem hostal. Phloat doesn't sem to eminate that type of air about him when he posts....
:flame:

 

[pure_awesome]

Please stop referring to yourself as a demon in every thread title.

It's making people take you far less seriously.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

Please stop referring to yourself as a demon in every thread title.

It's making people take you far less seriously.

:flame:
I'm Hell bound, I'm a mis-shapen creature outside the norm of society, and everything I touch seems to burst info flames... what else am I? (no celebrity jokes, no matter how much of an opening that was for most of them.)

Sorry to get all emo-y, and I know that it's not exactly something that a serious person would do, but it usually doesn't lead into people being rude or treating me like a little kid. Such scenarios randomly occur. And I really don't care what people think of me as. Not much I can do to change someone's preconceptions, depending on the person, especially over the internet. Why should it really matter to me. People that know me know me, people that don't don't. It's not really that important, now is it?

 

[Steel]

You don't have an understanding of competitive play if you can't see why those characters suck.

I'm not going to lay it out for you, figure it out.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

You don't have an understanding of competitive play if you can't see why those characters suck.

I'm not going to lay it out for you, figure it out.

:flame:
Besides "Play to Win/No Johns", and the basic rule set, what is their to compeditive play, exactly?

And again, I'm asking a simple question. You really don't need to be rude about it... Just don't say anything if you don't want to answer. A lot like school...
:flame:

 

[_Phloat_]

Your perspective is what is off. You are saying "I know these characters suck when they are compared to the greats, but they have good tools".

The problem with that thought, however, is that the characters are being compared to the best. They are fighting the best, and must compete with the best to do well in tournament. They have good tools, but they are inherently flawed. Just because a character doesn't have one particular weakness, doesn't mean they are good. It is often a lack of a unanswerable attack, or set of attacks. This is why GaW loses to Marth. Marth just outspaces, and DSes out of shield. It is a difficult matchup

Does it eliminate GaW's viability? No. Does it hurt it? Yes. It does. Characters with a lot of things hurting their viability are flawed, and are not as success-bound as the great characters.

 

[Steel]

It's not something you can explain, it's just having an inert understanding of this game and fighting game logic in general that you gain through experience.

 

[pure_awesome]

The human animal hes evolved to care what other humans think. It's wired into your brain. If you honestly think you don't care what other people think of you, you're lying to yourself.

Now stop playing the self-pity game and go hug a big rabbit or something, christ.


Anyway, Steel is right even if he is coming off like a jerk in saying it. Hell, you'll feel better about yourself for having figured it out on your own. If you legitimately think that Lucas and Samus aren't that much worse than other characters, then maybe you're smarter than everyone else and you're onto something. Go rep them. Either you'll be wrong and you'll feel good for having figured it out on your own, or you're right and you're the new ChuDat.

 

[_Phloat_]

It's not something you can explain, it's just having an inert understanding of this game and fighting game logic in general that you gain through experience.

Camp nades and space F-tilt??

 

[Steel]

not what i meant

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

:flame:
Excuse me, Pure_Awesome? What if I was alergic to rabbits? I could have gone out and did what you said, and then died, and then you'd have felt really bad about it, and you would have needed some chocolate to make you feel better.

But honestly, I walk around not really caring too much about, hm, 95% of the people's oppinions around me. My friends, family, and people that are nice, I'm fine with, but most of the world is pretty busy, not to mention corrupt, and everyone insists on looking out for #2 (God is #1, don't kid yourselves, people). Plus, I've really grown to just enjoy going to the beat of my drum. If people get mad, I give them ear-plugs.

I've never had the skill to properly use Lucas, although I do eagerly play with Samus and Mario whenever I want. The only reason I don't Main them or go out of my way to try to kick butt with them is because I simply prefer "The Power ... of AURA!"

I guess the true meaning of compeditive play eludes me still, but so long as I can continue to enjoy tough fights with strong people, I really could care less what it means. I just wanted to know what it was that "held" the low tiers from showing up more and more. As far as I know, Mario and Samus are just "boring", and Lucas and Ness are "short ranged grab bait"...
:flame:

 

[Melomaniacal]

Is god #1 if you don't believe in him?

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

Is god #1 if you don't believe in him?

:flame:
Good point. People can choose to believe what they want, in which case, they would probably be looking out for #1 (who would be themselves, unless they had another higher priority person in their lives). I was raised in such an environment that God's existance is pretty much an absolute, but I'm not going to argue with someone who believes differently. We all believe what we are either raised to believe, or choose to believe (typically both).
:flame:

 

[_Phloat_]

:flame:
Good point. People can choose to believe what they want, in which case, they would probably be looking out for #1 (who would be themselves, unless they had another higher priority person in their lives). I was raised in such an environment that God's existance is pretty much an absolute, but I'm not going to argue with someone who believes differently. We all believe what we are either raised to believe, or choose to believe (typically both).
:flame:

Perfect! Not that this was a revolutionary post for me, or something I haven't heard.... but ****, perfect....

post # 777

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

:flame:
As far as I know, Mario and Samus are just "boring", and Lucas and Ness are "short ranged grab bait"...

Hey, Ploat, is this right? Or am I still way off? Assuming my luck for having a Jack Pot Post, maybe my remaining questions might be answered sooner. And I thank those that have been civil and that have given me the previous information.
:flame:

 

[_Phloat_]

Both have bad matchups overall, with some being very difficult.

 

[DKKountry]

Let me rephrase that...
We may seem hostile because it's pretty easy to look at a character's tools to see that they suck.

Please stop referring to yourself as a demon in every thread title.
It's making people take you far less seriously.

Steel 2nd and pure awesome are now also in the Win-Bin.

Dadmon, basically what I (and everyone else seems to be making the similar points) am trying to tell you is that you can see all the "positives" about low-tier characters all day but until you've been to a real tournament (not online) and have had high-level players explointing those low-tier characters' weaknesses, you won't be able to fully understand just how glaring those weaknesses are.

I don't mean to be harsh and pull the "go to a weal tourney" card, but asking people to answer this thread to your satisfaction is like asking people to describe exactly what sex feels like if you've never had it.

 

[WastingPenguins]

Samus definitely kills before 160%

Ah, so the real problem comes out-- the people you play against suck at the game. If you can easily score KOs vs them as Samus, they aren't good.

Play better opponents with Samus and you'll understand why she sucks.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Yaaaay.

Where do you think viability ends on the tier list, guys?

I think that the current tier list is quite off.

I also think that the next one will be, too.

The general community just need to learn a lot of little things to understand what I mean.

 

[WastingPenguins]

I think that the current tier list is quite off.

I also think that the next one will be, too.

The general community just need to learn a lot of little things to understand what I mean.

hmmmm personally, I think the current list is mostly accurate, just needs a few minor tweaks. I'm curious as to which parts you disagree with so much.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

hmmmm personally, I think the current list is mostly accurate, just needs a few minor tweaks. I'm curious as to which parts you disagree with so much.

Game and Watch is mediocre.

Kirby is average, if not mediocre.

Diddy Kong is lower than listed.

ROB is average.

Wario is higher than listed.

Pokemon Trainer, Yoshi, and Sonic are higher than listed.

 

[Nic64]

Game and Watch is mediocre.

I think he's very overrated but I don't understand how he could be called mediocre, he seems to be clearly above average at the very least

agree with most else you said except I'm a little indifferent to diddy, I never really know if I think he's underrated or overrated anymore

 

[_Phloat_]

Friggin reflex. He can SDI through my turtle, and punish before it is over... with whatever he pleases.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

:flame:
Dkcountry, It's not like everyone who wishes to play compeditively can spend enough money to fly from one side of America to the other at will, observing every single tournament in existance. I'm only 17, from a middle class military family, expected to become a Marine Biologist... right now, my family is focused on my school work, and that's about it. I go to local tournaments, check the results of tournaments, and try to Youtube as many matches as I can. Between my schoolwork, past broken ribs, and this plague like sickness that has been making my life Hell, my dreams of being able to travel the nation insearch of Brawlers is pretty much just a dream. I'm not trying to ask them to answer it to suit me. I'm just asking for basic information, that's it. I know that people at high levels of play are going to easily exploit the weaknesses of characters. That's why they are high level players. I'm not high level. I'm still learning. And I didn't think that people would try to dismember me, pull my sternum out of my chest, shave my skin off, and burn my muscles and flesh with acid, simply because I asked for what-would-be-basic information at high levels.

...okay, maybe that imagery went a little too far... but stuff like that, for some strange reason, tends to make me feel good. XD

WastingPenguins, I'm not getting like 50% kills with Samus. The people I play aren't bad. All I'm saying is between Samus' good aerial game, the power of her Charge Beam (especially on an already launched enemy), and her down tilt and smash, I don't see how people can't get kills before the 200% mark with her. The 120% range seems to be a pretty good average, depending on the stage and enemy.

While I'm asking about Mario and Samus again (since as far as I know, they are bad simply because they are outperformed for being standard characters), I think I'll ask a few more questions (so long as no one comes at me with a hang-man's knotted rope and a burning torch). Fox used to be a monster in melee. Besides his Reflector and the range of some of his moves, is their anything else that dragged him down? Diddy is good on the offensive, but are his Banana's really that good (it seems that it would be able to go both ways, since other people can grab them if he tosses the banana at them)? And ToonLink seems like he'd do better than his is currently.... I'm just not sure about the little terrorist....
:flame:

 

[SpongeBathBill]

Diddy's effectiveness with bananas, naturally, heavily depends on how they're used and how good the opponent is at disallowing their advantage...if that helps you at all. XD

Oh, and you can't quite say "it could go either way" because though everybody can make use of grounded bananas, only Diddy can generate new ones at the moments of his choosing.

 

[DKKountry]

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with not being able to make it to a tournament, I'm just saying that the initial questions in this thread are so broad that the only real way to understand what character's weaknesses are is to have them exploited by people who know exactly how. I'm not trying to be an azz, I'm just sayin'.

Fox used to be a monster in melee. Besides his Reflector and the range of some of his moves, is their anything else that dragged him down?

Actually the range of his moves is one of his biggest problems. It may not seem too rough at first, but when you deal with people who have deadly pinpoint spacing, Fox's short reach starts to feel like a mile of distance. He also doesn't have much in the way of good approaches, but that kinda relates back around to his poor spacing/priority.

Diddy is good on the offensive, but are his Banana's really that good (it seems that it would be able to go both ways, since other people can grab them if he tosses the banana at them)?

I debated heavily on the Diddy boards way back when nanner-bouncing started that Diddy's nanners were not iron-clad and that opponents would learn to turn Diddy's nanners against him as almost a reflex. However, Diddys are still keeping a very good handle on nanner-control so either people are over-looking his nanners and not trying hard enough to learn them, or the Diddys are staying ahead of the curve consciously. Maybe both. So yes, the nanners are still a big deal.

And ToonLink seems like he'd do better than his is currently....

Don't know much about Toon Link, the only one big TL main I play with is Lobos so maybe TL just needs more representation. Or maybe his match-ups are lacking a bit.

Peace out.
Off to bed.