A "Hypothetical" Tourney Item List

[Dark Sonic]

Okay, you can feel free to debate what items you feel are fair. You have the right to do so. But know one thing. Random events (such as the spawning of items) can never be deemed completely fair because they instantly give one player an advantage over another, with no actual work involved. The size of the advantage is insignificant. What matters is that a player was just rewarded for something they had absolutely no control over. In competative gamming, anything and everything that gives a player an advantage that they could not predict in any way (like an item spawning close to them) should be taken out, for the simple fact that it took no skill to actually aquire that advantage. Having an advantage does not neccesarily ensure victory, but the premise that it is not equally available to both players or possible to predict, is itself enought to more than warrent a ban.

 

[roguebanshee]

While items may never be completely fair, they tend to nearly average out over the course of a match. Even more so if there are common item spawn points.

If you want an argument as to why item tournaments should coexists with standard tournaments:
People who are new to the scene can find it much easier/more forgiving to enter a competition if the setup is closer to what they usually play. Most people will play with most items on, so they will be more comfortable trying out tournaments where items are present. As they play more item tournaments, they may feel the desire to test out their skills with as many luck factors removed as possible. To do that they will need to enter a standard tournament. Thus the standard tournament scene grows.

I'd never expect an item tournament to have much in the way of a prize, but I can see how it could positively influence the competitive scene overall. The standard tournament scene will most likely get new players without item tournaments anyway, but item tournaments provide yet another entry point.

Just because you wouldn't participate doesn't mean it's bad (and that goes for any type of tournament).

 

[VisetheStompy]

Gustav Wind I would say it is a two part answer. The mechanics of items are intended to be humogious in the same way the aspects of shielding or jumping are. While I can't create any unbiased argument on fun factor since it is defined by on an individual basis, I can argue that the mechanics depth relates to the fundementals and are thus intereconnected to basics such as timing and spacing.

The secound asect of depth is in the non homogenious nature of movesets. Many moves, both special and regular have properties relating specifcally to items. Understanding when to take advantage of these properties requires the same ability as using any other special move. It also adds aspects of strategic depth. Since both their own and opponents characters properties can be modified on the fly it requires people to adapt tactics on the fly,learn to maximize boons, and adjust to even unfoavorable circumstances

Sonic Wave I disagree with a few assertions you have made. First off as I mentioned before there are many competive games that incorporate or even thrive on aspects related to random probibility. Being able to deal with the unexpected is considered a valuable skill in many of these fields.

As for the spawn next to scenario, its still fair because while in that instant the opponent aquired it, speaking in terms of probability you have an equal chance of being placed in that exact same situation. In the long run, statistically speaking, the opportunites for aquiring items right next to you is equal.

Now an extension arguement I can see emerging along this line of thinking is that the faster characters can reach distant items faster. However all the instant advantage items, namely the status effects, have already been removed. Further more adopting a strategy of always going after items is not always tactically speaking sound and can be punished.

Heavy actually do have a few advantages themselves relating to items. Several items are easier for heavies to throw (such as the sandbag and crate) andthey generally gain more properties (Such as range or higher attack speed) that speed characters already possess.

Though if the item list is tested enough I don't think it would have any noticiple adverse impact on tier lists, though it also wouldn't boost any lower end tier characters up to change opinions on them.

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

Dark Sonic pretty much hit the nail on the head. This isn't poker, we don't need luck affecting the outcome of a match.

 

[IGN Forums]

i wish Shadow The Hedgehog was in brawl!!

 

[-Linko-]

Linko Ridley Good use of visual information. However if you also notice the party ball and barrel are also not on the screen. If I have been told correctly (and if I haven't I aplogie for the misinformation) all the exploding containers are under the flame marked crate, and all the non exploding containers are under the regular crate. So you can keep containers that don't explode without fear of the exploding ones popping up. If for some reason there are still exploding containers on the regular group. Then good news! You can turn them off as well

All exploding containers can be banned now??

That's great news. I was planning to organize a tourney with items (here in Spain), but I was afraid that explosive capsules couldn't be banned. But thanx a lot for that info. We will probably use your item list suggestion.

You should edit the OP by changing all containers into "Regular Containers (not banned)" and "Explosive Containers (Banned)". That is to say, remove "Capsule".

 

[VisetheStompy]

All exploding containers can be banned now??

That's great news. I was planning to organize a tourney with items (here in Spain), but I was afraid that explosive capsules couldn't be banned. But thanx a lot for that info. We will probably use your item list suggestion.

You should edit the OP by changing all containers into "Regular Containers (not banned)" and "Explosive Containers (Banned)". That is to say, remove "Capsule".

Thats a good point. To the edit button!

 

[Snoopfrogg]

Items will never be used in competitive play because all the people will whine about it being random and boohooderplolwut

 

[Ectoplasmus]

I fully understand why items were generally banned in tourneys, but isn't part of the heart the series the somewhat unpredictable chaos? Any item can be avoided one way or another. Sure, if an item spawns near you, you gain a clear advantage, but your opponent is then given a challenge, and the person who obtains the item must employ it in a way that would be most useful to them. Basically, items, even good ones, are not guaranteed victories.

As for the smash ball, in my opinion, that simply could not be banned in tourneys. My reasoning behind this is that from the looks of things, a FS is to balance out a character. Some final smashes are better than others, and in a way they serve as just another attack for the character.

 

[VisetheStompy]

Items will never be used in competitive play because all the people will whine about it being random and boohooderplolwut

In my experiance of participating and help running tournaments (Though surprisingly I don't remember it happening to any smash events I have gone too) there are people out there that will whine about almost anything.

As for the competive item list, we won't know till we give it a try.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I fully understand why items were generally banned in tourneys, but isn't part of the heart the series the somewhat unpredictable chaos? Any item can be avoided one way or another. Sure, if an item spawns near you, you gain a clear advantage, but your opponent is then given a challenge, and the person who obtains the item must employ it in a way that would be most useful to them. Basically, items, even good ones, are not guaranteed victories.

But he should not have been given the advantage in the first place. Your opponent should not have to overcome this challenge, because you weren't supposed to be given an advantage that you didn't earn.

Also, this game was made to be played however we want. And tournament players have decided that we want tournaments without items. Tournament directors have decided to listen to the more experience competative players when they need to make their rules because more people show up that way and they get greater profits.. You can host your own tournaments with items, but don't expect the already established tournament settings to change.

As for the smash ball, in my opinion, that simply could not be banned in tourneys. My reasoning behind this is that from the looks of things, a FS is to balance out a character. Some final smashes are better than others, and in a way they serve as just another attack for the character.

Tell that to Marth, who has a one hit KO FS that is rediculously easy to combo into, great speed to reach the smash ball, and is already one of the best characters without FSes.

Tell that to Sonic, who will beat you to the FS almost everytime, has a long lasting FS.

Tell that to Falco, who's FS can easily get two kills with on FS. Just kill them once, and then when their pedistal comes back just carry them off the top of the screen.

 

[zeldamaster2006]

I am of the opinion of banning items for tournaments. While I see your point, the simple luck factor of having an item spawn next to you causes slight imbalance when in very important situations. However, I do believe smash balls should be kept on with a very low appearance rate. They are an integral part of each character, and require much more skill than luck.

 

[VisetheStompy]

Personally I agree with Sonic Wave on Final Smash only tournaments. If smash balls are on by themselves then any risk from using a final smash is negated by the frequancy they appear, making Final Smash camping and running a viable and irritating strategy that retracts from the game.

Either they should be off or they could potentially be negated by other items being on to distrupt the frequancy.

 

[Sephi_hatu]

Tell that to Marth, who has a one hit KO FS that is rediculously easy to combo into, great speed to reach the smash ball, and is already one of the best characters without FSes.

This is still balanced. If he misses it does nothing at all. If he does it in the air and misses, he dies.

Tell that to Sonic, who will beat you to the FS almost everytime, has a long lasting FS.

So its impossible to move out of his way then?

Tell that to Falco, who's FS can easily get two kills with on FS. Just kill them once, and then when their pedistal comes back just carry them off the top of the screen.

And now people dont have the ability to run off of a landmaster?

Also, this game was made to be played however we want. And tournament players have decided that we want tournaments without items. Tournament directors have decided to listen to the more experience competative players when they need to make their rules because more people show up that way and they get greater profits.. You can host your own tournaments with items, but don't expect the already established tournament settings to change.

Nobody brought up real tournys. This is a hypothetical list. If your so adamant that people can play however they want, then stop imposing upon people who want to play with items.

 

[Dark Sonic]

However, I do believe smash balls should be kept on with a very low appearance rate. They are an integral part of each character, and require much more skill than luck.

Very low... is once about every 30 seconds. That's far to many smashballs, considering the time limit is 8 minutes. People will play Marth, camp until a smash ball appears, get the smash ball with their supperior speed and range, and KO the opponent. All you have to do is land one fair (Marth's most spammable move) to combo into a FS. Feels nice to be killed 3 times at 20% doesn't it.

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

If the lowest setting is 30 seconds, then that's way too high of a frequency for such a powerful item (with any character) to be allowed. Stocks would be lost too quickly.

 

[-Aether]

-Aether- Dealing with the Random spawning location is exactly what list is about. By picking items you have to use properly you take control of the randomness much the same way other competive games with random factors do. For example looking at you scenario, from a melee point of view, you are screwed.

In that game you could take the hit and die, or air dodge, lose your thrid jump and die. However they thankfully fixed that this time around. Every character can now avoid incoming attacks in the air without losing recovery potential. Furthermore the recovery game in this one is considerable better, with more options and better return on recovery moves. There still may be rare situation where you can mess a recovery up with an item, but it should take the same amount of skill it does to say impact with a fully charged special move, or interupt a Ness or a tether recovery move, if not more skill.

Alright, well - I agree with your statements about the ease of recovery, as well as your claim that catching items is actually viable in this game. These are valid points.

Let me give you another scenario where items could be fundamentally imbalanced. I look forward to your response.

Say character X (any character you please) is at one end of final destination. Character Y (who also happens to be a character without a long ranged projectile) is at the other end of final destination. Item Z spawns next to character X. Character X now picks up the item in under 5 frames, not allowed character Y to take advantage of the lag produced by character X's acquiring of item Z. (that is, the 5 frames of lag to pick up an item are nearly unexploitable.) Now character X has an advantage (if we assume an advantage is any time where you gain an option, which is pretty reasonable of a definition.) that he did not have before.

My point..with less convoluted BS to go along with it. Picking up an item that spawns next to you is almost always unpunishable, while producing an advantage. Though, this situation can go either way (both players can experience it), it's likely that it will happen more often to one character than another, producing an advantage unrelated to physical play of the game, and related to random spawn locations.

To end this, I'd like to say I'm a competative smasher, but I grew up (when I was like, 9 I played SSB) with items and the like on. I always have appreciated all apsects of the game, even though I have thoroughly mastered play in SSBM with a technical character like Falco. I'm just saying, I'm still not convinced that items can be fair.

Sorry if this made no sense. I have a few drinks in me..tried my best.

 

[VisetheStompy]

Alright, well - I agree with your statements about the ease of recovery, as well as your claim that catching items is actually viable in this game. These are valid points.

Let me give you another scenario where items could be fundamentally imbalanced. I look forward to your response.

Say character X (any character you please) is at one end of final destination. Character Y (who also happens to be a character without a long ranged projectile) is at the other end of final destination. Item Z spawns next to character X. Character X now picks up the item in under 5 frames, not allowed character Y to take advantage of the lag produced by character X's acquiring of item Z. (that is, the 5 frames of lag to pick up an item are nearly unexploitable.) Now character X has an advantage (if we assume an advantage is any time where you gain an option, which is pretty reasonable of a definition.) that he did not have before.

My point..with less convoluted BS to go along with it. Picking up an item that spawns next to you is almost always unpunishable, while producing an advantage. Though, this situation can go either way (both players can experience it), it's likely that it will happen more often to one character than another, producing an advantage unrelated to physical play of the game, and related to random spawn locations.

To end this, I'd like to say I'm a competative smasher, but I grew up (when I was like, 9 I played SSB) with items and the like on. I always have appreciated all apsects of the game, even though I have thoroughly mastered play in SSBM with a technical character like Falco. I'm just saying, I'm still not convinced that items can be fair.

Sorry if this made no sense. I have a few drinks in me..tried my best.

Going crazy with the alphabet put aside, you did a good job explaining your view. Im happy you acknowleged the equal chance for items appearing next to someone so your concern seems to come down to frequancy of aquiring items between players.

Personally I feel it will come down to skill and a throughly tested list. Im heavily proapplication in explaing why certain items are not inbalanced. I think the better player will come out on top, regardless of the ratio of items aquired during the match.

This probably isn't going to be a very satisfying answer for you or alot of similar minded people but thats my stance on the issue. If I didn't I wouldn't have proposed this testing project in the first place

 

[Dark Sonic]

Personally I feel it will come down to skill and a throughly tested list. Im heavily proapplication in explaing why certain items are not inbalanced. I think the better player will come out on top, regardless of the ratio of items aquired during the match.

And yet if the players are very close in skill (which most applicable to matches near the end of the tournament) Then a random occurance can sway the match. We don't want that kind of variablity. We want cold hard results that show who's better, not who's really good. We want to see who's the best, based purly on skill.

This probably isn't going to be a very satisfying answer for you or alot of similar minded people but thats my stance on the issue. If I didn't I wouldn't have proposed this testing project in the first place

Then I propose that you find someone else to test it, because the competative community that is currently established has already tested a very similar scenerio, and has concluded that items are bad. We are not going to test it again, because we don't want to wait 2 years just to say that we're bad again when we already have a logical premise.

Find someone else to test it. The competative community residing at SWF will, for the most part, have no part in it.

 

[VisetheStompy]

I know you are firmly set in you items are unbalanced view, I disagree with a few of your opinions, but I respect it. However, the fact that several members have provided input and postive feedback in this very thread, as well as the this topic emerging over and over again on the boards (Though I do admit a lot of them are rather rude about it), indicates that there are people who may be open to the idea.

That said like I proposed to Flame Dragon Wang, lets simply agree to disagree, since I think at this point we we probably end up saying the same thing over and over again with a new coat of paint.

 

[sffadsad]

Well here's my two cents.

- Many 2D fighters have professional tournaments. Yeah that's pretty obvious, but the thing that people forget is that many characters have more than one super move, thus adding in a bit of randomness to what super will be used by your enemy to trash you. If anything items are even less random, especially if you have a list of tournament "legal" items to use. Once an opponent picks up and item you KNOW what is going to happen and you can think of a way to avoid it. Think of it this way, Ryu has 1 level on his super bar yet he has 2 level 1 supers to choose from. He can either use his Shinkuu Hadouken or his Shinkuu Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku. You have no way of knowing which, and he can use them at anytime so you have to think up a strategy to be able to avoid either one. In Brawl an enemy would pick up an item that spawned randomly yes, but after picking the item up, you know what's going to happen next thus negating a random effect.

- Super moves can also greatly change the outcome of a match. Take for example Shin Gouki's Shun Goku Satsu. Yes it's a level 3 hyper move, but it's also unblockable and does an insane amount of damage. Think of this scenario: your enemy is Shin Gouki. It's the final round, you with one win, him with one win. You both have about 1/4 of your health left. He does not yet have 3 levels on his super bar, but he's pretty close. Try as you might you still get friggin' stuck in a corner and can only block or maybe even parry. However he leaves you with no openings and as you are stuck in your corner he launches his Shun Goku Satsu. You lose. That is exceedingly more deadly and game turning than a simple projectile item or even something like a beam sword. Now you can argue that items spawn more than you actually getting all 3 levels on your super bar during a match, but honestly I have seen even simple combos with an ex move (buffed up version or an ordinary special that requires about half of a super bar) mixed in that turned out to be more game turning than someone getting hit by a freakin' freezie.

- You argue that items would give your opponent an unfair advantage that they have not earned, and could possibly even buff their advantage even more. Well I say that's bull****. I mean think about it, if a beam sword spawns next to your opponent it's all good and well that they can PICK IT UP without having any risk, but if you're far enough away what good will it do them? Are you honestly telling me it's that hard to either dodge a thrown sword, or side step a slash? If so maybe we should ban all characters will projectiles, and sword users as well. You can also argue that your opponent should not have gotten an advantage in the first place and instead learned to find ways to overcome your characters attributes instead of getting a projectile to counter your projectiles. Well that's just being close minded. I could in turn say that you should learn to overcome the newly gained advantage that your enemy has just gained.

- Also for people who say that random spawn points are the bane of ever using items in tournaments are just being stubborn. Honestly think about it. Random spawn points make things fair for everyone in terms of having a useful thing pop up next to you. It's the actual usage of the item that is dangerous, and all elements of a random item being used are thrown out the window when you opponent picks up an item since you can visually see what they pick up and what they're holding.

- For Sonic telling someone else to test the possible use of items instead of the competitive community: I'm sorry, but that's just plain idiocy. Yeah you guys have tested the possible uses of em for the previous two games. PREVIOUS TWO! Brawl is indeed a NEW GAME with NEW BALANCE and NEW TWEAKS. I remember when Gouki appeared in Super Turbo Street Fighter he was too cheap. He was miles ahead of any other character in the game and in the hands of a human player he would automatically win. It became a problem of either ban him, or only use him in competitive gameplay. Well as the next installments of the Street Fighter games came and Gouki appeared once again as a playable character did they say, "Psh let someone else test and see if he's OK for play. He was too overpowered in Super Turbo so we don't want to waste time testing him for this NEW game." Instead they tested him, and he was FINE. Besides it took like what 2 years before the Melee scene went where it did anyway. Now with all pros becoming practically noobs once again with all of their advanced techs gone, why not test items while also looking for new advanced techs huh?

- Last thing. People always say Super Smash is deep. I do not for a second think that it is not, as a matter of fact I think it's one of the most unique fighting games out there in that it is deep enough to hide advanced techniques and yet still be able to be played at a reasonably high level even without advanced techniques. By having a list of tournament legal items it IMPROVES the depth of the game by forcing players to develop even more strategies in order to counter different tactics with the addition of items. It also causes people to think more DURING battle than when fighting against a character with a predictable movelist, against a human player who's play style can be read after the first match or so.

Edit: I'm open to counter arguments, and if I find you have a good point I cannot counter I will admit so.

 

[VisetheStompy]

Your pationate about the subject sffadsad and I appreciate your support for giving change a chance. However, I think you may be being a little too over the top with the accusations and declarations. The Capcom super system and the Smash super system are very different animals. While the Capcom system entitles different supers the build up is very consitent and is generally very forgiving to defend against.

Final Smashes may end up being too unforgiving which why I have put it on the fense. Street Fighter supers are balanced because Capcom has had years of practise and they constantly re-release the game to fix things. Smash Supers are a completly new experiment and the series is known for not how should I put it... "consistant" releases.

Furthermore calling all anti-items stubborn and Pros noobs with the new release is also over the line. Anti-item people are also concerned about the health of the game and competitive scene, holding a different set of ideals does not make them narrow minded.

Likewise most pros are not suddenly going to lose all their abilites with a physics engine change. The time they have put into the game has given them extremly strong abilites in the fundementals and they deserve to have their thoughts heard as well for their contributions to the scene.

I may sound like I am just berreting you, but last thing I want to happen is people refusing to look at the other sides point of view. Otherwise the entire point of this thread is lost.

 

[Sephi_hatu]

Well here's my two cents.

- Many 2D fighters have professional tournaments. Yeah that's pretty obvious, but the thing that people forget is that many characters have more than one super move, thus adding in a bit of randomness to what super will be used by your enemy to trash you. If anything items are even less random, especially if you have a list of tournament "legal" items to use. Once an opponent picks up and item you KNOW what is going to happen and you can think of a way to avoid it. Think of it this way, Ryu has 1 level on his super bar yet he has 2 level 1 supers to choose from. He can either use his Shinkuu Hadouken or his Shinkuu Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku. You have no way of knowing which, and he can use them at anytime so you have to think up a strategy to be able to avoid either one. In Brawl an enemy would pick up an item that spawned randomly yes, but after picking the item up, you know what's going to happen next thus negating a random effect.

- Super moves can also greatly change the outcome of a match. Take for example Shin Gouki's Shun Goku Satsu. Yes it's a level 3 hyper move, but it's also unblockable and does an insane amount of damage. Think of this scenario: your enemy is Shin Gouki. It's the final round, you with one win, him with one win. You both have about 1/4 of your health left. He does not yet have 3 levels on his super bar, but he's pretty close. Try as you might you still get friggin' stuck in a corner and can only block or maybe even parry. However he leaves you with no openings and as you are stuck in your corner he launches his Shun Goku Satsu. You lose. That is exceedingly more deadly and game turning than a simple projectile item or even something like a beam sword. Now you can argue that items spawn more than you actually getting all 3 levels on your super bar during a match, but honestly I have seen even simple combos with an ex move (buffed up version or an ordinary special that requires about half of a super bar) mixed in that turned out to be more game turning than someone getting hit by a freakin' freezie.

- You argue that items would give your opponent an unfair advantage that they have not earned, and could possibly even buff their advantage even more. Well I say that's bull****. I mean think about it, if a beam sword spawns next to your opponent it's all good and well that they can PICK IT UP without having any risk, but if you're far enough away what good will it do them? Are you honestly telling me it's that hard to either dodge a thrown sword, or side step a slash? If so maybe we should ban all characters will projectiles, and sword users as well. You can also argue that your opponent should not have gotten an advantage in the first place and instead learned to find ways to overcome your characters attributes instead of getting a projectile to counter your projectiles. Well that's just being close minded. I could in turn say that you should learn to overcome the newly gained advantage that your enemy has just gained.

- Also for people who say that random spawn points are the bane of ever using items in tournaments are just being stubborn. Honestly think about it. Random spawn points make things fair for everyone in terms of having a useful thing pop up next to you. It's the actual usage of the item that is dangerous, and all elements of a random item being used are thrown out the window when you opponent picks up an item since you can visually see what they pick up and what they're holding.

- For Sonic telling someone else to test the possible use of items instead of the competitive community: I'm sorry, but that's just plain idiocy. Yeah you guys have tested the possible uses of em for the previous two games. PREVIOUS TWO! Brawl is indeed a NEW GAME with NEW BALANCE and NEW TWEAKS. I remember when Gouki appeared in Super Turbo Street Fighter he was too cheap. He was miles ahead of any other character in the game and in the hands of a human player he would automatically win. It became a problem of either ban him, or only use him in competitive gameplay. Well as the next installments of the Street Fighter games came and Gouki appeared once again as a playable character did they say, "Psh let someone else test and see if he's OK for play. He was too overpowered in Super Turbo so we don't want to waste time testing him for this NEW game." Instead they tested him, and he was FINE. Besides it took like what 2 years before the Melee scene went where it did anyway. Now with all pros becoming practically noobs once again with all of their advanced techs gone, why not test items while also looking for new advanced techs huh?

- Last thing. People always say Super Smash is deep. I do not for a second think that it is not, as a matter of fact I think it's one of the most unique fighting games out there in that it is deep enough to hide advanced techniques and yet still be able to be played at a reasonably high level even without advanced techniques. By having a list of tournament legal items it IMPROVES the depth of the game by forcing players to develop even more strategies in order to counter different tactics with the addition of items. It also causes people to think more DURING battle than when fighting against a character with a predictable movelist, against a human player who's play style can be read after the first match or so.

Edit: I'm open to counter arguments, and if I find you have a good point I cannot counter I will admit so.

You made this post in the wrong topic. You should post this in the 'Smash tourny format is flawed' topic.

Edit: Did it for ya.

 

[thesage]

First let me post the items that would be allowed in tournaments if items were turned on:

Sparky (more research needs to be done on this item)
smoke ball
Proximity Mine
Spinner
Super Scope
Lip's stick (depends if it still spikes)
Star Rod

The other ones are just too broken to be considered to be allowed (you honestly think that a being hit by a freezie does not change the match direction; it could potentially make it a complete 180).

Do you honestly think those items are even intersting in the least? I just like the proximity mine, but if you like that single item that much, you might as well pick snake cuz the items will be set on very low anyways. Yeah more could be added, but since they are too broken they are banned.

If you want to debate whether the smash ball will be turned on, please take it to another thread (there's one specifically for it).

Items are also completely different from supers. You don't have to do anything to earn them, and they don't add that much diversity or character uniqueness to the scene.

AIM convo I had with another competitive smasher (I kept our names confidential):

me: what items do you think they would allow in tournaments
me: if items were allowed in tournaments
not me: >____>
not me: .....none?

The community already tried items. It doesn't want them again. There are hardly any competitive smashers who want items on in tournaments. The only item that ever had a chance was probably the smash ball, and that just appears to often and is too broken for some characters, while terrible for others.

I don't even understand what the big deal is. When I was a casual player I only wanted to play w/ items to have fun, but never for serious matches. I've never met someone in real life who thinks that items can be used for serious play.

 

[Finch]

Since everyone ignored and refused to consider my post I'll give an illustartion of what I'm talking about (that tourny players don't use items because they aren't fun for them):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9d91xJ6Ll4

Azen pulls a beam sword but doesn't use it. Someone commented "why'd he drop the beam sword?" and the response was "The real question is why would you keep the beam sword considering Peach's moveset is much better."

I'm sure everyone will ignore this post too because you all can't handle debates having more than two arguments, but I am making a valid point here. It's not just the randomness of items that turns people off to them, but the limiting of playstyle that results from using them.

 

[Xenesis]

Capsules = Containers = Turn-offable.

The Containers (Crate in Item Switch) turns off Crates, Wheelie Crates, Barrels, Party Balls and Capsules.

 

[Sephi_hatu]

Since everyone ignored and refused to consider my post I'll give an illustartion of what I'm talking about (that tourny players don't use items because they aren't fun for them):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9d91xJ6Ll4

Azen pulls a beam sword but doesn't use it. Someone commented "why'd he drop the beam sword?" and the response was "The real question is why would you keep the beam sword considering Peach's moveset is much better."

I'm sure everyone will ignore this post too because you all can't handle debates having more than two arguments, but I am making a valid point here. It's not just the randomness of items that turns people off to them, but the limiting of playstyle that results from using them.

Reason people might be ignoring you is because where talking about what items should be in a tournament format. Not whether to have them on at all or not. Theres another topic with lively debate in it.

 

[Wight]

you could organize this better. Perhaps with colours. (which you think would be banned, allowed and uncertain)

then again i don't see a point in this thread. Since the backroom pretty much dictates the rosters and tourney rules.

 

[Rhubarbo]

If you play with items, you don't BAN any of them. Items=/=tournaments.

 

[thesage]

Since everyone ignored and refused to consider my post I'll give an illustartion of what I'm talking about (that tourny players don't use items because they aren't fun for them):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9d91xJ6Ll4

Azen pulls a beam sword but doesn't use it. Someone commented "why'd he drop the beam sword?" and the response was "The real question is why would you keep the beam sword considering Peach's moveset is much better."

I'm sure everyone will ignore this post too because you all can't handle debates having more than two arguments, but I am making a valid point here. It's not just the randomness of items that turns people off to them, but the limiting of playstyle that results from using them.

Azen just did not want to use the beam sword as he is more comfortable with Peach's own moveset. That's just his playstyle. If I pull a beam sword I'd try to use it until they are off stage and then throw it at them. You have to realize that holding an item with peach basically makes it impossible to turnip spam, which is a big part of her game.

 

[sffadsad]

Your pationate about the subject sffadsad and I appreciate your support for giving change a chance. However, I think you may be being a little too over the top with the accusations and declarations. The Capcom super system and the Smash super system are very different animals. While the Capcom system entitles different supers the build up is very consitent and is generally very forgiving to defend against.

Final Smashes may end up being too unforgiving which why I have put it on the fense. Street Fighter supers are balanced because Capcom has had years of practise and they constantly re-release the game to fix things. Smash Supers are a completly new experiment and the series is known for not how should I put it... "consistant" releases.

Furthermore calling all anti-items stubborn and Pros noobs with the new release is also over the line. Anti-item people are also concerned about the health of the game and competitive scene, holding a different set of ideals does not make them narrow minded.

Likewise most pros are not suddenly going to lose all their abilites with a physics engine change. The time they have put into the game has given them extremly strong abilites in the fundementals and they deserve to have their thoughts heard as well for their contributions to the scene.

I may sound like I am just berreting you, but last thing I want to happen is people refusing to look at the other sides point of view. Otherwise the entire point of this thread is lost.

I never touched on Final Smashes in my post since I do in fact believe that they are indeed horribly balanced. I was simply using the super system to compare it to Brawl's items system in the sense that they are both game mechanics that grant a temporary attack gain, and add in an air of randomness that forces players to adapt more during battle.

I didn't mean to call the pros noobs, I actually meant to say newbs. Although they have spent time and practiced with Melee, the tournament scene of Brawl is definitely no longer the same as of now. It's kind of like how it was when Melee first started as well, people still getting used to the general feel of the game along with nothing to boost mindgames and such, thus the newb part. It's not so much their ability as that they still need time to adapt and get not only the general feel of the game, but also to find techniques that will be able to make up for the loss of their old techniques in order to be able to compete at the level they once did.

Other than that it's cool. My wording however, seems to be off, so I'll see if I can make what I'm trying to say more clearly (with less words ).

One of the greatest arguments against items is the random factor and the balance factor.

The balance factor can easily be negated by creating a list of tournament legal items, such as the one you have made yourself, taking into account the effect of the items and so forth. With certain items labeled as fair then there is no more reason to argue that items are unbalanced are there?

The random factor is greatly lessened by the fact that explosive crates are not only labeled, but can also be turned off via item switch. This effectively gets rid of what was one of the largest reasons as to why items were banned in the first place. Now the argument that must be fought against is how unfair it is for a "good" item to suddenly spawn near someone and thus give them the match. Well IMO how is that more random than you running at an opponent and them suddenly launching a KO attack on you? If you think about it, an item is basically a temporary attack granted to a character through, yes I'll admit, random chance. The random part of items is the where and the what, however those parts are indeed the most trivial part of items. Instead of being so stuck on those factors why not think of instead the important part, the USE of the items. Instead of thinking "Hey, that's not fair he got the beam sword because it was closer to him," why not think, "Alright, he has the beam sword now I've got to dodge that sucker if he throws it and I better watch for his improved range."

I just find the random argument lame since it's not like you don't know what's going to happen when the item gets picked up.

Edit: Should this have also gone to the other topic?

 

[Jack Kieser]

I'm going to go ahead and post here because this thread is completely related to something that was discussed in a previous thread.

A discussion was ongoing in a thread created about discussing the viability for Smash Balls in tournaments (I believe the thread title was something along the lines of 'Smash Balls = New Play Style'); the thread eventually devolved into a flame war, but some definite good did come out of it. Basically, some of the people in the thread, myself included, agreed to begin work on a 'Casual Competition League', with our first order of business being the creation of an agreed, 'official' (because, as you would expect, it would be up to individual tournament holders to make the final call) item list for tournament play.

Now, I've seen since then a lot of 'preliminary' lists of what people think could constitute an item list for tournament play, but I haven't seen a lot of real-world testing, nor have I seen a list that doesn't have glaring contradictions of balance in it. For the work on our 'CCL' project, we're planning on doing extensive in-game testing in a variety of formats (1v1, 2v2, and FFA, both online and off for all formats) to determine what is the best and most balanced format for item play in tournaments.

If anyone who is reading this really wants to help make a formalized item tournament set, I ask that you do this. When Brawl comes out in the US (probably a few days before, to be honest), I plan on making an 'official' (with mod approval) thread in the tournament forum dedicated to the 'Casual Competition League'; there, I will post details on how we'd like to test out items (for instance, how many matches need to be played before test results should be considered valid), because I, and many others, would like this to be as thorough and scientific as possible. After at least a month or so of extensive testing has passed, we should be able to formulate an item list that is a balanced and as fun as possible; remember, our objective is to ban as little as possible. If it absolutely must be banned, that's when we will ban something.

Also, I'd like to go ahead and say, we won't be bringing any prior knowledge over from Melee (or Japanese Brawl) when we do this testing. I know there are people who are saying 'Well, I've played Brawl already and Item A is definitely broken!', but there were differences between regional copies of Melee, and we need to be prepared in case that happens with Brawl. Along those same lines, I know there are people saying 'Well, [Insert Melee Item Here] was broken in Melee, so it's probably broken now.'; remember, regardless of the countless 'This isn't Melee 2.0' arguments out there, Brawl has an entirely new physics system: this is the main reason we have to re-test everything and do as much so extensively. If you aren't willing to throw everything we know about items from Melee out the window and disregard playing the Japanese version of Brawl to keep an open mind for the final US version, then we can't use your data for the project; it will just be too biased.

If anyone has any questions, feel free to PM me here or hit me up on AIM. As I said, keep an eye out for the 'CCL' thread in the tournament discussion forum in the near future.

 

[Ojanya]

Items will not be in major tournaments. Accept it.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Items will not be in major tournaments. Accept it.

I hate to say it, but that right there was the main reason the other thread went down in flames; because people were making comments designed to spark a fight, not entice discussion.

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

Items will not be in major tournaments. Accept it.

Who said anything about making major tournaments use items? Did you read the disclaimer at the start of the first post? If anything, we've only been discussing the possibility of a different tournament existing outside of the main ones. We're not trying to replace or change anything.

Jack, I look forward to seeing how your project works out. It would be fun to have an alternate style of play league.

 

[Finch]

Reason people might be ignoring you is because where talking about what items should be in a tournament format.

Interestingly enough, there are like two posts in this topic about that. The rest is a huge debate on whether items should be in tournaments. Try reading your own topic.

 

[Dark Sonic]

- Many 2D fighters have professional tournaments. Yeah that's pretty obvious, but the thing that people forget is that many characters have more than one super move, thus adding in a bit of randomness to what super will be used by your enemy to trash you.

That's not random at all. You opponent is actively filling a super bar, and you can predict when it will be filled. You can predict what supers he will be able to do. You opponent will have full control of what super they use, how quickly they fill their bar, when they use their super, ect.

If anything items are even less random, especially if you have a list of tournament "legal" items to use. Once an opponent picks up and item you KNOW what is going to happen and you can think of a way to avoid it.

It doens't matter. What matters is that they were given an advantage because now they have more options than they did before. They didn't earn that advantage, and it's not fair that you have to deal with it now.

Think of it this way, Ryu has 1 level on his super bar yet he has 2 level 1 supers to choose from. He can either use his Shinkuu Hadouken or his Shinkuu Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku. You have no way of knowing which, and he can use them at anytime so you have to think up a strategy to be able to avoid either one.

Just because you don't know which one he uses, doesn't mean that your opponent doesn't. It's not random because the player has complete control over it. He has control of how quickly he fills his super bar, he has control of when he uses his special, and he has control of which special he uses.

In Brawl an enemy would pick up an item that spawned randomly yes, but after picking the item up, you know what's going to happen next thus negating a random effect.

It does not negate the random effect. That's because the simple act of accuiring an item has an immediate affect on the match. The sudden increase in the number of options you have has a direct affect on the momenutm of the match. The conditions that you and your opponent were dealing with have now randomly changed. The random effect bleeds into the outcome and makes matches less consistant.

- Super moves can also greatly change the outcome of a match. Take for example Shin Gouki's Shun Goku Satsu. Yes it's a level 3 hyper move, but it's also unblockable and does an insane amount of damage. Think of this scenario: your enemy is Shin Gouki. It's the final round, you with one win, him with one win. You both have about 1/4 of your health left. He does not yet have 3 levels on his super bar, but he's pretty close. Try as you might you still get friggin' stuck in a corner and can only block or maybe even parry. However he leaves you with no openings and as you are stuck in your corner he launches his Shun Goku Satsu. You lose.

And you deserve to lose. He actively filled his super bar, he aggresively pressured you into a corner, and he took advantage of an opening to pull off his special.

That is exceedingly more deadly and game turning than a simple projectile item or even something like a beam sword. Now you can argue that items spawn more than you actually getting all 3 levels on your super bar during a match, but honestly I have seen even simple combos with an ex move (buffed up version or an ordinary special that requires about half of a super bar) mixed in that turned out to be more game turning than someone getting hit by a freakin' freezie.

It doesn't matter that items are less influential than supers. Supers are earned. Items are not.

- You argue that items would give your opponent an unfair advantage that they have not earned, and could possibly even buff their advantage even more. Well I say that's bull****. I mean think about it, if a beam sword spawns next to your opponent it's all good and well that they can PICK IT UP without having any risk, but if you're far enough away what good will it do them?

They pick it up and now have more options than they did before. They were handed more options. That isn't fair.

maybe we should ban all characters will projectiles, and sword users as well. You can also argue that your opponent should not have gotten an advantage in the first place and instead learned to find ways to overcome your characters attributes instead of getting a projectile to counter your projectiles.

Learning a character is earning an advantage. A character's moveset is consistant and controllable. It can be predicted. Item spawns can't.

Well that's just being close minded. I could in turn say that you should learn to overcome the newly gained advantage that your enemy has just gained.

You shouldn't have to overcome that advantage. The opponent should not have recieved that advantage in the first place. They didn't earn the advantage, so you shouldn't have to deal with it.

- Also for people who say that random spawn points are the bane of ever using items in tournaments are just being stubborn. Honestly think about it. Random spawn points make things fair for everyone in terms of having a useful thing pop up next to you.

There is no guarantee that items will spawn next to you as much as your opponent through the match. Tournaments do not have enough matches for this randomness to even itself out. You get gimped once in winners and once in losers and your out. Heck, you may lose to someone that's just plain better than you in winners, but may get knocked out in losers because your opponent kept getting all the items because they kept spawning next to him.

It's the actual usage of the item that is dangerous, and all elements of a random item being used are thrown out the window when you opponent picks up an item since you can visually see what they pick up and what they're holding.

Like I said further up, the randomness doesn't go away because the momentum of the match gets changed as soon as someone aquires more options. Items instantly give you more options, and thus they instantly change the momentum of the match. However, because items are not earned, this change in momentum is not earned nor justified.

- For Sonic telling someone else to test the possible use of items instead of the competitive community: I'm sorry, but that's just plain idiocy. Yeah you guys have tested the possible uses of em for the previous two games. PREVIOUS TWO! Brawl is indeed a NEW GAME with NEW BALANCE and NEW TWEAKS.

The item spawning system has not changed. Items still appear in random intervals. They were banned in melee because they were random->they are still random in brawl->they will be banned in brawl.

I remember when Gouki appeared in Super Turbo Street Fighter he was too cheap. He was miles ahead of any other character in the game and in the hands of a human player he would automatically win. It became a problem of either ban him, or only use him in competitive gameplay. Well as the next installments of the Street Fighter games came and Gouki appeared once again as a playable character did they say, "Psh let someone else test and see if he's OK for play. He was too overpowered in Super Turbo so we don't want to waste time testing him for this NEW game." Instead they tested him, and he was FINE.

That ban was justified because he devolved the metagame. However, in the later instalments, he actually changed. He was no longer miles ahead of the other characters, and thus his ban had to be re-evaluated because he no longer fit the premise by which he was banned.

Items have not changed. Items were banned because they spawn at random times, and they still fit that criteria. They don't need to be re-tested because the previous test still applies here.

Besides it took like what 2 years before the Melee scene went where it did anyway. Now with all pros becoming practically noobs once again with all of their advanced techs gone, why not test items while also looking for new advanced techs huh?

So does logic go away when you switch to a new game? Anything that isn't equally accessible to both players (note, I said players not characters) should be banned. If it appears randomly, then there is no guarantee that it will be equally accessible.

-

. By having a list of tournament legal items it IMPROVES the depth of the game by forcing players to develop even more strategies in order to counter different tactics with the addition of items.

But the random nature by which the items appear detracts from the depth of the game, by forcing players to have to react to an advantage that was never worked for. Nobody can plan for an item to spawn right on top of them.

It also causes people to think more DURING battle than when fighting against a character with a predictable movelist, against a human player who's play style can be read after the first match or so.

If you can read their style after the first match then it is their fault for not mixing things up enough. Fighting games are about predicting your opponent, and using the options you have to punish them for being predictable.


Items are not banned for being good or bad. Items are banned for being random. The size of the advantage that they give is insignificant, the only thing that matters is that they unpredictably appear and give one player more options than they had before.

 

[Pieman0920]

Double post. Ignore it.

 

[Pieman0920]

*looks at list*

Wow, TC...you really are not good at this. It's almost like that guy back int he stage discussion trying to ban stages real early. You keep on thinking you know the factors for why things are banned, and it turns into garbage. Stuff like that Franklin Bage point really make it show

 

[thesage]

I didn't mean to call the pros noobs, I actually meant to say newbs. Although they have spent time and practiced with Melee, the tournament scene of Brawl is definitely no longer the same as of now. It's kind of like how it was when Melee first started as well, people still getting used to the general feel of the game along with nothing to boost mindgames and such, thus the newb part. It's not so much their ability as that they still need time to adapt and get not only the general feel of the game, but also to find techniques that will be able to make up for the loss of their old techniques in order to be able to compete at the level they once did.

The tournament scene of brawl has not really started yet and already the old pros are better than the casual players. Nobody really cares about how the matchup with the non-competitive players. It's the matchup with two competitive players that matter.

The balance factor can easily be negated by creating a list of tournament legal items, such as the one you have made yourself, taking into account the effect of the items and so forth. With certain items labeled as fair then there is no more reason to argue that items are unbalanced are there?

The random factor is greatly lessened by the fact that explosive crates are not only labeled, but can also be turned off via item switch. This effectively gets rid of what was one of the largest reasons as to why items were banned in the first place. Now the argument that must be fought against is how unfair it is for a "good" item to suddenly spawn near someone and thus give them the match. Well IMO how is that more random than you running at an opponent and them suddenly launching a KO attack on you? If you think about it, an item is basically a temporary attack granted to a character through, yes I'll admit, random chance. The random part of items is the where and the what, however those parts are indeed the most trivial part of items. Instead of being so stuck on those factors why not think of instead the important part, the USE of the items. Instead of thinking "Hey, that's not fair he got the beam sword because it was closer to him," why not think, "Alright, he has the beam sword now I've got to dodge that sucker if he throws it and I better watch for his improved range."

I just find the random argument lame since it's not like you don't know what's going to happen when the item gets picked up.

I was simply using the super system to compare it to Brawl's items system in the sense that they are both game mechanics that grant a temporary attack gain, and add in an air of randomness that forces players to adapt more during battle.

Sparky (more research needs to be done on this item)
smoke ball
Proximity Mine
Spinner
Super Scope
Lip's stick (depends if it still spikes if it does then it's banned)
Star Rod (depends on the knockback of the star projectile)

These are the items that would be allowed in tournaments. Smoke Ball does nothing. The proximity mine just makes it so that a player has to avoid a certain part of the stage. The spinner is useless. The super scope is practically useless since the weak stream of hits can be DI'd out of and the bigger hit is really avoidable. Lip's stick can only be ever used as a projectile, any other way is just stupid, same with Star Rod.

Items don't add much depth or strategy. Matches would basically devolve into knocking your opponent away and then throw a Lip's stick/Star Rod/Proximity Mine at them.

Do you also think the randomness is fair when everytime you are knocked off the stage an item spawns and your opponent throws it at you for an easy edgeguard?