A King's Quest For Respect: The Bowser Matchup Thread

[Jim Morrison]

Another tip: a T-jolt clanks with up-B. Against a T-jolt spamming Pikachu, you can approach with up-B.

 

[Phiddlesticks]

Why use a ftilt or firebreath or upb or whatever against Thunder Jolt when you can just powershield them :/

This matchup seems eerily similar to the matchup against Falco. I mean, Falco and Pikachu both have chain throws on Bowser, they both have a keepaway projectile, they both have quick getaway moves (Phantasm and QAC), they are both air release chain grabbed by Bowser...

Pikachu is seriously just like Falco except he traded in a better projectile for better killing options and a better recovery (and is therefore a harder matchup overall)

 

[Jim Morrison]

I would if I were playing Wifi, which is basicly all I play. I disagree Pikachu being harder than Falco. Falco has his own annoying moves, and he kind of beats you in the air AND on the ground. Also Falco rarely approaches, most Pika's approach after shooting T-jolts.

 

[gallax]

the tough thing about playing bowser is one who spams the fire breath. either on the edge or when you or being cornered. tjolting is canceled by the jab and the fire. gets a little annoying when you cannot tjolt properly. the thing with jab canceling(most of the time) is that when you do cancel it the force usually sends whoever is canceling back a little. this barely affects bowser, which is good for you. as a pika mainer i rely on this to send the enemy back onto the ledgefrom the pushback where i can then install my edgeguarding techs. but against bowser this is harder. threfore, you guys needs to learn to jab cancel the tjolt.

as for hurting pika, grabbing him will be he best way other than using your tilts for damage. as you all may know a fsmash or usmash should be able to kill pika below 100% and at around 80-85% if there arent any degenerated effects(idk if bowser has any).

most pikas will be using their FF fair to attack you. the miportant thing is to shield then wait till pika is on the ground. most of the time the pika will not time it right and their fair will have a very sight lag. this is your time to grab or use a less than 7 frame attack if bowser has any. if you can learn how to punish this then most pikas you play will then not know what to do since their game is based on the fair. they will start spamming tjolt...but you will be able ot cancel it. so the adv is now yours.

if you play a pika who is really good at mixing it up, then the fair will be used mostly as a shieldpoker. then you have to watch out for the grab game. pika has a phennomenal grab attack game against bowser. we can do so much damage out of the dthrow and fthrow. DI out of it if you can and try to spotdodge the fthrow after you tech the throw. but most of the time we cna get a good 40% CG on you guys.

im not going to go through pikas movest with you guys...but be sure that the utilt is your worst enemy and our best friend. and by that i mean it can and will kill you or lead into a thunder tech chase.

 

[B!squick]

... Anyone else notice a glaring difference between the Pikachu discussion and the Olimar discussion?

 

[Blistering Speed]

most pikas will be using their FF fair to attack you. the miportant thing is to shield then wait till pika is on the ground. most of the time the pika will not time it right and their fair will have a very sight lag. this is your time to grab or use a less than 7 frame attack if bowser has any. if you can learn how to punish this then most pikas you play will then not know what to do since their game is based on the fair. they will start spamming tjolt...but you will be able ot cancel it. so the adv is now yours.

We gotz fortress. Don't worry, you'll learn to hate it. It's essentially what you said about Pika's U Tilt, but for us.

 

[Bowser King]

... Anyone else notice a glaring difference between the Pikachu discussion and the Olimar discussion?

Pika boards take it from both sides point of views and don't just come in and go "We CAn SpamzQ!!!@@@2121!"

-Bowser King

 

[LinIsKorean]

Why use a ftilt or firebreath or upb or whatever against Thunder Jolt when you can just powershield them :/

This matchup seems eerily similar to the matchup against Falco. I mean, Falco and Pikachu both have chain throws on Bowser, they both have a keepaway projectile, they both have quick getaway moves (Phantasm and QAC), they are both air release chain grabbed by Bowser...

Pikachu is seriously just like Falco except he traded in a better projectile for better killing options and a better recovery (and is therefore a harder matchup overall)

People use F-Tilt when they don't feel like timing a powershield, it's much easier to time.

I wouldn't say Falco and Pikachu are that similar. Just because they both have projectiles doesn't mean much. Yes, they have chain-grabs, but you should be trying to space yourself not to get grabbed anyways so that's not relevant. (That, and Pikachu doesn't have a ground CG to a spike.) The fact that they both have getaway moves doesn't change the matchup much. And finally, there are other chaacters that can be air release CGed, but that doesn't really mean much regarding how you play them.

I agree that Pikachu is a harder matchup for Bowser, but not because of the reasons you stated.

Pikachu has more KO potential than Falco, but they aren't similar enough to base it off of that. Further, Falco has a much better aerial-ground game mix than Pikachu does, who, from my experience, is much more aerial based. That being said, once Pikachu gets Bowser in the air the battle is largely in his favor.

I'd rather not get to in-depth, but I'm going to go 65:35 Pikachu on this one.

 

[MrEh]

Every time Pikachu chaingrabs Bowser, he can chaingrab right back. Although in much crappier form.

I think the matchup is 40-60. More on this later.

 

[Blistering Speed]

I F Smashed a Pikachu QACing a week ago. ****.

 

[B!squick]

Oh yeah. Should we move on? Nothing else is being said, though we're still waiting on MrEh's "later."

 

[MrEh]

Oh yeah. Should we move on? Nothing else is being said, though we're still waiting on MrEh's "later."

Completely forogt about this. ><

A lot of this pretty much degrades to theorycraft, since Pika and Bowser don't exactly run rampant in tournies.

Anyone object to 40-60?

 

[Bowser King]

Nope. Seems reasonable.

-Bowser King

 

[Collective of Bears]

Anyone object to 40-60?

I'm no Pika expert, but I could agree with it. I always had trouble fighting him, so 40-60 seems about right.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

thats fine with me.

 

[Bowser King]

So, now it's kirby time.

I don't play a lot of kirbys but I know the basics.

-Bowser King

 

[Liquid Gen]

Jump break to side B.

Win.

 

[Jim Morrison]

U-tilt is annoying for you... D-throw comboes into U-tilt.

 

[Collective of Bears]

I play quite a few Kirbys, and by my experience, Kirby has the upper hand. Dthrow, Utilt, and Side B can be trouble. I'll say 60-40 Kirby's favor.

 

[Bowser King]

Lulz

Kirby boards say it's 70-30

Oh well >_>

-Bowser King

 

[Collective of Bears]

Lulz

Kirby boards say it's 70-30

Oh well >_>

-Bowser King

Is it that bad? Kirby was never THAT hard for me.

 

[Hobobloke]

It's not that bad (I don't think at least), its just that a lot of boards Bowser discussion goes like this

"Time to discuss Bowser"
"He's fat, slow, and easy to combo 90-10 to us"
"Yep thats what I was thinking"

I don't play any Kirby mains so I'm useless, all I know is kirbycide is a ***** especually when he spits you out under the stage so you can't recover.

 

[Collective of Bears]

It's not that bad (I don't think at least), its just that a lot of boards Bowser discussion goes like this

"Time to discuss Bowser"
"He's fat, slow, and easy to combo 90-10 to us"
"Yep thats what I was thinking"

Unfortunately, you have a point. It seems like Melee Bowser left a bad taste in everyone mouth about him.

If only we still had Gimpyfish...

 

[Jonas]

Hah! Let them underestimate us!

 

[phi1ny3]

Kirby seems pretty tough for Boozer, but I certainly wouldn't say 30:70 disadvantage.

 

[Flayl]

It's not that bad (I don't think at least), its just that a lot of boards Bowser discussion goes like this

"Time to discuss Bowser"
"He's fat, slow, and easy to combo 90-10 to us"
"Yep thats what I was thinking"

Yep, honestly I don't even think the discussions are worth it, because getting into an argument with someone who has never played a bowser before simply isn't worth the effort.

In other words Bowser is disadvantaged in all matchups, we win because we're a whole lot better than everybody else.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I thought Sonic boards were nice
We kind of went for the fat, FOLLOW-UPable character, because it's true. He's not slow though, only Kinzer said that. I thought 50:50 was a nice advantage
I was looking forward to that discussion, everyone on the Sonic boards thought "we finally gonna get another green matchup" but then we came and kind of... Convinced the majority.

 

[B!squick]

I don't, we all had varying opinions on that Sonic match up. People were 50/50 +/- 10 on both sides. I can't see how wouldn't be equal. Sonic has a nice big punching bag and that bag has a huge shield, big meaty arms, and no lazors. So, with both being in their element I find it had to see who would have even had a slight overall advantage. I looked at a couple of Sonce tech vids and they can do some pretty crazy ****. O.o

But, about Kirby... Eh, I don't much other than what I've gathered from random WiFi battles and playing as him myself. Kirbycide aside, that hammer is murder. x_x

EDIT: I stand corrected. Down throw to UpTilt is murder. O.o

 

[Jim Morrison]

Oh yea, Kirby can copy your ability, and sadly... Fire ***** Bowser

His Fire is smaller than yours though

 

[Asdioh]

Jump break to side B.

Win.

wut

Lulz

Kirby boards say it's 70-30

Oh well >_>

-Bowser King

Yeah, that matchup rating is really old though. I wanted to reevaluate, because I know it's not THAT bad.

But I still think it's in Kirby's favor.

The only good Bowser I've played is Sliq...and he's a very good Bowser >_> but that was in like...September. And I sucked a lot back then. I stopped underestimating Bowser after playing him, but I seriously haven't played a decent one since then, and I've vastly improved.

When I play against Bowser I....just see a big target. A big target that can kill me pretty quickly if I get careless, but only if I get careless. You know?

I guess Dthrow->uptilt owns Bowser, but I always thought you could get out of it quickly with Smash DI + jumping and airdodging. Dthrow->uptilt doesn't even work at 0% in Kirby dittos. Obviously, Bowser is bigger and heavier, but he should be able to get out of it. Fthrow->uair, on the other hand, is inescapable for Bowser (I think), and only perfect Smash DI will get you far enough away after the Uair to escape followups.

Bowser is easy to gimp...

I'm going to put this at least 60-40 Kirby's favor until I see some convincing arguments that it should be otherwise :/

I'm living in my college dorm without a Wii, but tomorrow (Friday) I'll be heading home, and playing Brawl all freaking weekend so PM me if you want to test the matchup on crappy wifi :D

 

[B!squick]

Lol, I'm game, but I'm not Sliq good... but then, who can be?

 

[Blistering Speed]

The only good Bowser I've played is Sliq...and he's a very good Bowser >_> but that was in like...September. And I sucked a lot back then. I stopped underestimating Bowser after playing him, but I seriously haven't played a decent one since then, and I've vastly improved.

Well, it's good that you've played a good Bowser (there's about 3).

When I play against Bowser I....just see a big target. A big target that can kill me pretty quickly if I get careless, but only if I get careless. You know?

Bowser doesn't have to rely on your mistakes to rack damage and kill, Bowser has great defensive options and some quick kill moves (Fortress, U Tilt etc.). He does have some slower kill moves too that are based on prediction, but they compensate by being so ludicrously strong. Yes, he's a big target but he has a great shield to compensate.

I guess Dthrow->uptilt owns Bowser, but I always thought you could get out of it quickly with Smash DI + jumping and airdodging. Dthrow->uptilt doesn't even work at 0% in Kirby dittos. Obviously, Bowser is bigger and heavier, but he should be able to get out of it. Fthrow->uair, on the other hand, is inescapable for Bowser (I think), and only perfect Smash DI will get you far enough away after the Uair to escape followups.

I can't think off the top of my head how many U Tilt's you could get off, but Bowser does have a move with invincibilty frames 1-5 (Fortress) so as long as he's close enough to the edge or knows he will hit, you won't be punishing the escape.

Bowser is easy to gimp...

Common misconception my friend. Fortress' great priority means he can recover reasonably safely, edgehogs will be your friend so you can punish landing lag, if hammer or B Air is disjointed enough there's a chance though.

I'm going to put this at least 60-40 Kirby's favor until I see some convincing arguments that it should be otherwise :/

I do think it's Kirby has the slight advantage, but nothing higher then 60:40.

Please state your case, I'm a much better debater tackling others' points.

 

[Liquid Gen]

Even though it requires perfect M2K timing, you can air grab release Kirby into side B, though as I said it is pretty difficult.

And it was a joke.

@Flayl : I completely agree. After the Olimar discussion I just gave up; it isn't worth it.

 

[Collective of Bears]

@Flayl : I completely agree. After the Olimar discussion I just gave up; it isn't worth it.

We just need more pro Bowsers to enforce that Bowser isn't just a big slow turtle.

 

[Dotcom]

Lol, I'm game, but I'm not Sliq good... but then, who can be?

Vex Kasrani.

 

[Sliq]

Vex Kasrani.

This is fact backed by science.

 

[MrEh]

Vex Kasrani.

You are correct sir.

Vex is probably busy with his Bowser shenanigans as we speak.

 

[Seagull Joe]

pikachu is one of bowser's worst matchups i think.he can thundershock spam.thunder wrecks bowser and he is such a big target.dsmash is his worst nightmare because it can easily shield stab bowser.fair can outspace alot of bowsers moves.65-35 pika's favor.not a good matchup.and even if bowser fortress out of dsmash he gets tossed to the side.pika is also a very small target

 

[B!squick]

pikachu is one of bowser's worst matchups i think.he can thundershock spam.thunder wrecks bowser and he is such a big target.dsmash is his worst nightmare because it can easily shield stab bowser.fair can outspace alot of bowsers moves.65-35 pika's favor.not a good matchup.and even if bowser fortress out of dsmash he gets tossed to the side.pika is also a very small target

You exaggerate, sir. Thunder isn't that bad and I sure hope FAir doesn't outspace Bowsers moves. I just don't see it beating FTilt or UTilt. :/

 

[Vex Kasrani]

You exaggerate, sir. Thunder isn't that bad and I sure hope FAir doesn't outspace Bowsers moves. I just don't see it beating FTilt or UTilt. :/

Powershielding thunder takes almost no skill at all, pika's aerials also get ***** by Bowser tilts so it doesn't matter.