A King's Quest For Respect: The Bowser Matchup Thread

[B!squick]

I see tourny winning vids of Jiggly's UThrow > Rest. But that's Melee. This is Brawl. Combos don't exist, only certain locks and an ACed Falco laser + anything. The only thing I know of that combos into Rest is DAir which should be responded to with a Fortress OoS anyway. And even if it lands, Bowser would have to be at a pretty high percent for it to kill, which could translate to an easy aerial Bowser Bomb depending on the stage.

 

[kirbyfan66]

I never said it was lethal, just something to watch out for. Jiggs is fairly good at racking up damage.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

The main things I watch out for in this matchup are Dair -> Rest and Rollout. Pund proves worrysome, too. Jiggs is pretty good at racking up DMG, but her only very good KO moves are Rollout and Rest. Bair and Fair are decent as well but they don't cause big problems. Her smashes are slow (except Dsmash), but have good knockback (except Dsmash).

im sure bowser can upB OoS rollout, or just turn around and block backwards and grab her on the way.

Shouldn't matter either way. I read in a Jipplypuff guide that Bowser is one character you just don't bother using rest on because the risk is too great if you fudge it.

Exactly. i'd gust try and go for a gimping if i wanted to try and KO Bowser.

how does bowser deal with air camping?

 

[Cassius.]

Stay put lul.

 

[kirbyfan66]

Air camping? On stage, guard and punish. Off stage, get back on. =P

 

[MrEh]

Klaw it up. Seriously

 

[teluoborg]

I see tourny winning vids of Jiggly's UThrow > Rest. But that's Melee. This is Brawl. Combos don't exist, only certain locks and an ACed Falco laser + anything. The only thing I know of that combos into Rest is DAir which should be responded to with a Fortress OoS anyway. And even if it lands, Bowser would have to be at a pretty high percent for it to kill, which could translate to an easy aerial Bowser Bomb depending on the stage.

The problem with drill rest is that Dair can make you trip and jiggs will go for the rest only if you trip. And I don't think you can fortress out of tripping animation.

Other than that it's true that Bowser's huge shield + huge launch resistance = drill rest is nearly useless.

But I wouldn't be surprised if Jigglypuff edgehogged Bowser then rest'd the landing lag of his up B.

 

[B!squick]

The problem with drill rest is that Dair can make you trip and jiggs will go for the rest only if you trip. And I don't think you can fortress out of tripping animation.

You Fortress during the DAir, son. Can't trip if you don't have a chance to.

Other than that it's true that Bowser's huge shield + huge launch resistance = drill rest is nearly useless.

But I wouldn't be surprised if Jigglypuff edgehogged Bowser then rest'd the landing lag of his up B.

That actually sounds like something to be afraid of, though I would fully expect and hope that if the Jigs player got Bowser off stage they'd try to keep him there as opposed to doing something flashy like that, lol.

 

[kirbyfan66]

While you two discuss Rest, lets discuss the only other threat Jiggs brings (other than the air), Rollout.

It's very easy to avoid, and very easy to punish, but I still look out for it.

 

[Cassius.]

Why would you look out for it when Bowser has Up-B OoS? The moment you see/feel [yay rumble] Jiggs hit your shield, UpB. Or for an easier solution, just jump. lmao

If you're in the air, you can time it well enough to klaw Jiggs out of the rollout. You can airdodge, breathe fire...have at you. Even on the ground you can Klaw jiggs out of it. Klaw is a Godsend against Jiggs. Like really, just have at it. Grab release UpAir when at the killing percent (lollike70) and you're good to go.

60-40 Bowser definitely. The only issue I have with Jigglypuff is Pound because the last time I played a Jigglypuff I couldn't really do much because I was always far away where I couldn't do anything when the Jigglypuff spaced the pound. However, I realized you can just FAir OoS or FTilt angled wherever to deal with that lag afterwards.

 

[B!squick]

Rollout should never hit you. Like, ever. Your only excuse could be that you're playing on FD or on wifi, but that's it.

 

[MrEh]

Klaw it up. Again.


Also, grab release Uair = fun.

 

[B!squick]

Yeah, I imagine Klaw is wonderful in this match-up.

So, no disagreements on a 60-40 to win?

 

[Cassius.]

Even on WiFi if you have half a brain it's possible to outklaw the rollout or UpB it.

Yes, 60-40 Bowser, unless someone wants to vouch for 65-35 but I feel like that's pushing it.

 

[Flayl]

Tested this with my brother who doesn't even play smash anymore:

Even Samus can shield-grab short hop FAir before you can fortress.

God****it Brawl.

 

[Flayl]

Guys, we need to get the summaries for our matchups in order. Here's how I propose doing it:

{Character}
Ratio:{Bowser:Opponent}
Secondary:{"Unnecessary" for ratios over 35:65, "Characters" otherwise}
What to look out for: {Main approach/defense/camping tools, chaingrabs/locks}
How they will KO you: {Kill moves with KO %, gimping moves}
Best spacing zone: {Grab/Fortress range, Jab range, FTilt range, Aerial Klaw range}
Grab-Relase
- For damage: {chaingrab + most damaging release option}
- For the KO: {most powerful release options}
Firebreath: {Great for appropriate situations, Sparingly as a mixup, Short burst only, Avoid completely}
Stages
- Strike: {Neutral Stages to Strike}
- Ban: {Stage to ban, account for both conservative and liberal stage lists}
- Pick: {Best and 2nd best stage to choose from, account for both conservative and liberal stage lists}
Link to discussion: {link to either the beginning of the discussion or the most detailed post}

If you guys want I can organize this myself, even though I disagree with nearly all the ratios lolz

 

[B!squick]

Well, we're almost done and then we can get to rediscussing and what not. I actually propose we do what the Ganon board did and have a panel of dudes whose opinions we would care about giving the ratios and just averaging them out.

But that format seems like it'd be perfect. Might as well wait until we start rediscussing to use it though. We only have, what, 3 more characters left?

 

[GreenFox]

Falcon is to manly to have negative matchups 100-0 Chuck Norris

Ok so in this matchup once captain falcon uses his down taunt the game is over

 

[Cassius.]

lolololmemes

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Well, we're almost done and then we can get to rediscussing and what not. I actually propose we do what the Ganon board did and have a panel of dudes whose opinions we would care about giving the ratios and just averaging them out.

But that format seems like it'd be perfect. Might as well wait until we start rediscussing to use it though. We only have, what, 3 more characters left?

Regardless of this sounding elitist, some opinions hold more weight then others, my opinion should way more then say yours, for example.

I heard Ray just changed the matchups ratio's to what he wanted on the ganon boards because he felt it was wrong with no discussion lol!

 

[B!squick]

Regardless of this sounding elitist, some opinions hold more weight then others, my opinion should way more then say yours, for example.

No no, that's exactly why I want to do something like that. I would totally trust your opinion over mine any day.

 

[Hobobloke]

Guys, we need to get the summaries for our matchups in order. Here's how I propose doing it:

{Character}
Ratio:{Bowser:Opponent}
Secondary:{"Unnecessary" for ratios over 35:65, "Characters" otherwise}
What to look out for: {Main approach/defense/camping tools, chaingrabs/locks}
How they will KO you: {Kill moves with KO %, gimping moves}
Best spacing zone: {Grab/Fortress range, Jab range, FTilt range, Aerial Klaw range}
Grab-Relase
- For damage: {chaingrab + most damaging release option}
- For the KO: {most powerful release options}
Firebreath: {Great for appropriate situations, Sparingly as a mixup, Short burst only, Avoid completely}
Stages
- Strike: {Neutral Stages to Strike}
- Ban: {Stage to ban, account for both conservative and liberal stage lists}
- Pick: {Best and 2nd best stage to choose from, account for both conservative and liberal stage lists}
Link to discussion: {link to either the beginning of the discussion or the most detailed post}

If you guys want I can organize this myself, even though I disagree with nearly all the ratios lolz

Sounds good, I'll try and do some when I have time but I've just started Year 12 and don't have too much free time.

 

[JOE!]

Regardless of this sounding elitist, some opinions hold more weight then others, my opinion should way more then say yours, for example.

I heard Ray just changed the matchups ratio's to what he wanted on the ganon boards because he felt it was wrong with no discussion lol!

well yeah, thats cus he's a dumbarse

he just happens to be the best user of the worst character tho...

...wait...

 

[The Brown Scourge]

I like what Flayl is proposing about our whole matchup thing. But since we only have a couple of characters left let's finish first. Btw, what characters do we have left?

 

[Vex Kasrani]

well yeah, thats cus he's a dumbarse

he just happens to be the best user of the worst character tho...

...wait...

Ray is NOT the best Ganon, plain and simple.

 

[Cassius.]

so i herd we care about ganondorf guise

But yeah. Umm I like Flayl's idea, but we really should just finish all of the characters and get a move on first. What is there to discuss about CF anyway...?

If it hasn't been done, I can post in the CF MU thread or get Acedude/Other CFs to comment on it...I think he's played me like 3 times. I'll get ALOT more smashing time in when I get back in March.

MY FIRST RELEVANT POST IN LIKE A WEEK YEZ.

 

[B!squick]

Lol, I know what would happen if we ask Falcon players about the match-up.

Them: .... *shrug*

It's important to remember that every single one of Bowser's moves is faster than the same move Falcon has except for Jab and maybe 1 or 2 others. FSmash most likely, but I can't think of any more than that. As well, Falcon has no moves that are safe on block with proper spacing, that I know of, and no way to force Bowser to approach.

I'm leaning towards 60/40 our advantage on this one.

 

[Darknid]

65:35 Bowser. CF can't handle a simple shield, Bowser shieldgasms all day, Bowser has KO power and weight and priority and range, superior moves overall, is generally better and his playstyle kicks CF in the nads.

 

[Cassius.]

I gave the CF boards the notice that we were kinda discussing CF...I expect some memes to ensue, but whatever lul

 

[Player-3]

Bowsers fat

 

[MrEh]

Bowsers fat

Trufax yo.

 

[lordhelmet]

Bowser is easy, 50-50 or 45-55 your favor.

I'll post more info when Liquid updates his frame data thread.

 

[Darknid]

The Koopa King prefers the term 'festively plump'

 

[Darky-Sama]

This match-up basically depends on how much Bowser shields and grabs. If Falcon gets one opening, hes most likely going to get several hits in due to pressuring and punishing with aerials and grabs. Most of Bowser's attacks have a large start-up and cool down time, which doesn't really help too much either.

You guys definantly have range on the ground though. It's not that hard to smack Falcon out of his aerial approaches either, that or you can just shield grab us. Bowser's one of those characters that it's not really difficult to smack around, but getting the first hit in can be a real pain.

When it comes to Falcon vs. Bowser in terms of their air games, Falcon has the advantage. Bowser's Fair is the only thing that really poses much of a threat to Falcon's air game, and maybe spaced Bairs. Koopa Klaw is another thing that helps a lot in this match-up judging that you know how to space it properly.

Playing defensively probably puts the match-up 45:55 in Bowser's favor.
Playing offensively (no idea why you'd do that), 55:45 Falcon's favor.

 

[Player-3]

bowser sux

just grab his shield obv

then throw him and press uairs

uairs are gud

 

[Phiddlesticks]

Bowser is big and slow and easy to combo

60-40 CFalcon's advantage

 

[BigLord]

I'd say it's a very VERY close match-up. Something like 55-45, or 60-40, your favor.

Phiddlesticks is partially right. Bowser ISN'T that slow, but he's slower than falcon. Add in the fact that he's big, and combos become easier.

Not to mention a few knees here and there, ey Flayl?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Big characters are so fat. More to love. Specifically for Falcon.

Although really, the main problem of this matchup for Falcon is killing Bowser...oh I mean yeah, he can rack the damage just fine...and I mean it's not exactly hard to land a kill move...that kills at like 170%. And Falcon doesn't exactly have an easy time gimping (good luck consistently using D-air/SideB to spike I guess), and he's also a very easily edgeguarded character as well.

idk about you, I don't find Bowser all that easy to Knee. I mean he's a fairly big and sometimes helpless target, but the Knee has pretty crap range and getting F-aired back before it hits isn't cool.

 

[lordhelmet]

Kneeing Bowser is too easy, the problem is that it's also fun. Most Falcons (including myself) will get Knee happy and stale it out, but if we keep it fresh it should kill at about 120%.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I guess I can see Knees being very useful for one-dimensional punishing against bowser when he whiffs if nothing else. Or...maybe Knee out of shield actually works? =)

Although I still say there are easier targets anyway since he has some pretty annoyingly quick moves for hitting in front of him.

I think the better exploit of Bowser's size is N-airing him anyhow.