A Philosophy Towards Balance

[The_NZA]

Hello Project M fans! Welcome to the new house.

I posted this forum a day ago, so I thought i'd repost it because I was looking to hear some Back Room members comment.

I was wondering, given this is the first smash brothers that is super successfully being worked on with updates coming through the pipe stream (and with an audience that must have the capability of the internet to use it), I was wondering if we can expect balance patches. I guess really, its a 2 part question.

1) What is the design philosophy behind Project M's balance? Should every character be buffed and nerfed aggressively to try and make anyone tourney viable? In Melee, tournaments were fairly uniformly/exclusively won by fox, falco, jiggs, peach, cfalcon, marth, shiek, and the occasional IC's maybe. Should Project M be designed to try and decrease the distance between the tiers?

and 2) If decreasing the distance between the tiers is a priority, what system will be in place to try and ensure this is the case? For example, maybe the backroom reviews the state of tiers and balance biannually and makes a concerted effort to address character weaknesses in those times.

Personally, I've always played Ness and I accepted early on that the balance of the game is what you've got and Nintendo was never going to put out patches assuming its fans had internet. But computer games like Starcraft are balanced aggressively to try and keep the races on equal footing. One might say thats because in SCII there are only 3 races, and its an easier game to fix. But I think part of the reason balance is so strongly sought after is because it is evident everyone with a computer has internet and can keep up to date.

Please leave out any comments stating "imbalance is inevitable". Of course people will have good and bad matchups and there will always be tiers. I was just wondering if it will be a priority of the backroom during beta and even after beta when the final version is released.

 

[Bad Cupboard]

I think once they release the final version they shouldn't update it anymore.
The game is already more balanced than Melee ever was. Constantly changing stuff discourages people to learn all they can about a character.

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

Atleast Fox and Falco should be retouched slightly to be balanced enough compared to the rest of the PM cast.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Balance changes are not on the agenda at the moment. Please watch warmly until all characters have a finished design before focusing on balance cries.

The goal for characters is to be around Melee Falcon/Doc levels or, preferably, better, without being obnoxiously designed like Brawl Olimar or 2.1 Sonic.

 

[leelue]

Then they might as well call the final version demo 3 so the balance patch is called the final version.
To avoid that kind of mentality

Kink i could have sworn that the new chars were supposed to be fox tier. Otherwise, we'd get our wish and fox would be falcon tier.

 

[Master WGS]

Stick around in 2015 when I announce Project M+, the balanced version of Project M.

 

[leelue]

All you did was delete fox and falco OMG why was that so easy mind blown

 

[Master WGS]

Thanks for using spoiler tags and not ruining my surprise.

 

[Arcalyth]

I thought about the Fox/Falco debate a little more and while I still hold that Fox Usmash needs a slight nerf (running Usmash is way too easy), Spacie mistakes get punished hard.

It seems that many P:M characters are being equipped with anti-spacie technology. Chain utilt all day. Beat their DD with combinations of range, high/unorthodox mobility, or armor. I read somewhere that shine actually /is/ CCable (haven't tested it though). Space animals may be able to dance around you and spam lasers and nairs, but we all know that they can't just mindlessly tech skill you to death. One mistake to capitalize on and you get a free combo/gimp attempt. Spacies are the most delicious combo food in the game, imo.

Falco, on the other hand, and in my opinion, just needs a nerf to dair. Make it work like every other sex kick in the game instead of it being two seconds of full-powered **** YOU. Once you get him off-stage he's pretty much not coming back, lol.

Personally, I hope that once all of the characters are released, we only get one final balance patch afterward, and not until the metagame has had a little time to develop. Balance patches beyond final release would kill this game. Look at how many people complained about their characters changing in 2.5, especially Sonic and Pit players. If that happens frequently enough, people will just get frustrated that their efforts are fruitless and just stop playing the game. It's excusable now because that kind of thing is expected in beta software, but it won't be excusable after a "final" release. All we can really hope for is that that last balance patch is very thoughtfully orchestrated (PMBR seem to discuss these things pretty heavily, so I'm not really worried) and has hard data supporting it (both frame data and tournament results).

 

[Life]

^I suggested on a twitch chat to make Falco's dair have sourspot that meteors, but is otherwise identical to the current dair hitbox (which would become a sweetspot). I think they can do that right?

 

[Arcalyth]

Of course they can do that, but they seem pretty set on not modifying the space animals (or top tier melee vets in general)

 

[TheDevicer]

I feel like the spacies are fine but have a little too easy of a time killing. A simple nerf in power to Fox's u-smash and reducing the number of active frames on Falco's dAir should be enough to balance them out a bit. It's a bit stupid how easy running u-smash is, like Arcalyth said, but hit-confirms off of shines are a problem too. It's just that Fox has a guaranteed way to link into a powerful finisher and Falco's dAir requires very little precision. These two changes would hardly change the core gameplay of the spacies and take a healthy step out of the "Melee is the holy grail" type of mentality we have going on. The whole "because Melee" argument is great until you really start thinking about how balancing the game around a few characters impacts the gaming experience as a whole. Rather than strive to make the cast on par with the furries, just drop them down a bit. They are so polarizing in Melee that their current design forces balancing to consider them. Why else would pit have invulnerability on his up-B off the ground?

Edit: Lol Kink. I will wait warmly...

 

[Pseudomaniac]

Honestly, I think the PMBR should release Demo 3 with the rest of the characters, wait about a year for the metagame to develop, and then release a final balance patch and let it be unless some game-breaking glitch or exploit is discovered. The people who always nitpick about balance will do so anyways; might as well not make everyone else mad too.

 

[ItalianStallion]

It is way too early to consider modifying the space animals. Like Arcalyth said, they get punished very easily as soon as an opening is presented. It's super easy to make technical mistakes with spacies, even the top pros make them multiple times in a match. And when they do make those mistakes, their opponent capitalizes hard, normally to the spacie's death. Think Armada and Mango. When they fight, Mango normally loses despite being arguably the best spacies main there is. Many/all characters have the potential to carry a single spacie mistake to death at a pretty regular rate.

Plus, in PM, spacies don't have to just worry about a couple match-ups. Now they have a fully viable cast, each with their own tricks and anti-spacie tech.

Plus, the metagame hasn't had enough time yet. Think about Axe's Pikachu and TAJ's Mewtwo. Before those players showed what those characters could do against spacies, people didn't think much of them. It might take a while for certain characters to shine (Pun) against spacies because the right players haven't pushed them to their limits.

As a side note, I also thought the PMBR's intention was to bring everyone to Fox/Falco level.

 

[GaretHax]

It is way too early to consider modifying the space animals. Like Arcalyth said, they get punished very easily as soon as an opening is presented. It's super easy to make technical mistakes with spacies, even the top pros make them multiple times in a match. And when they do make those mistakes, their opponent capitalizes hard, normally to the spacie's death. Think Armada and Mango. When they fight, Mango normally loses despite being arguably the best spacies main there is. Many/all characters have the potential to carry a single spacie mistake to death at a pretty regular rate.

Plus, in PM, spacies don't have to just worry about a couple match-ups. Now they have a fully viable cast, each with their own tricks and anti-spacie tech.

Plus, the metagame hasn't had enough time yet. Think about Axe's Pikachu and TAJ's Mewtwo. Before those players showed what those characters could do against spacies, people didn't think much of them. It might take a while for certain characters to shine (Pun) against spacies because the right players haven't pushed them to their limits.

As a side note, I also thought the PMBR's intention was to bring everyone to Fox/Falco level.

Yup to everything including the last statement.

 

[The_NZA]

I haven't had much experience vs Fox in this game, but if Melee is an indicator and if moves are just as powerful, then I completely disagree about one point--We don't need to see the metagame develop to know that all the DI in the world wont stop Fox from killing a Ness with an usmash when Ness is at 90%. And guess what--Fox's usmash is one of many killing moves with incredible speed and amazing leadins.

Its basic risk/reward. Yes, spacies get punished hard, but there's so little risk for usmash and the reward is way disproportionate. It needs some kind of a nerf--I vote a power nerf.

Again, I don't know if its just as effective in Project M but I suspect it probably is.

 

[`dazrin]

1) What is the design philosophy behind Project M's balance? Should every character be buffed and nerfed aggressively to try and make anyone tourney viable? In Melee, tournaments were fairly uniformly/exclusively won by fox, falco, jiggs, peach, cfalcon, marth, shiek, and the occasional IC's maybe. Should Project M be designed to try and decrease the distance between the tiers?

Honestly, people would be surprised how little we take balance into consideration. Much of our development is focused around game design; is it fun to play as? Is it fun to play against? Does this work intuitively? etc. For the most part, things just naturally fall into place when it comes to balance and we let the community show us how balanced the game is (through tournament results) once we publicly release. Of course, if we see through playtesting that a character is severely a touch above the rest, we question why things may be that way; is a certain aspect of the character over-centralizing? If so, we alter character design accordingly. Very seldomly do we simply "nerf" or "buff" certain aspects while keeping design completely the same.

2) If decreasing the distance between the tiers is a priority, what system will be in place to try and ensure this is the case? For example, maybe the backroom reviews the state of tiers and balance biannually and makes a concerted effort to address character weaknesses in those times.

Like I said before, we don't even take "tiers" into consideration in the backroom. We focus on creating well-designed characters. When all the characters are completed and we have accurate data that gives us an idea of where everyone stacks up, perhaps we will make small balance changes accordingly. For now, we are still in the design stages- This game is a WIP! Demo 2.5 is exactly what it sounds like- A demo of what is to come!

 

[Greenpoe]

I do not think think the game should ever have a planned "final" release. Part of what makes Project M so great is psychological. We, as humans, constantly crave more and better. I believe that we feel tempted to play and keep playing Project M because we feel a natural urge to want to play the next release before it's even out, and the next best thing is to just play the hell out of the current release. Second, by making the game "go gold," it enforces a frightening level of stratification upon the design team where they might feel that they should not change x or y about the game after that release. I agree that there is the fear of people changing the game after its released, but a greater problem would be if a character is seriously unable to compete in tournaments. What if that character was your main? Would you really want to sit on your hands for a year or be forced to main another character when everyone comes to realization that your main is just plain worse than most of the cast (such as Wario was in 2.1)? I think, then, that the P:M team should freely delay an "official final" release as long as they please. I don't think it should be called a "demo" forever, but I also enjoy the beta stages and the balancing tweaks.

Also, Brawl+ was "the thing" to play back in the day. Then it got released. Then it died and people played other things (Balanced Brawl, P:M and Brawl minus). Keeping things in Beta keeps us as people continuously interested in the project, the progress of it and the direction for the future.

tl;dr - The team should take care of balance through both allowing the metagame to progress as well as tweaking the game when necessary, regardless of if that means releasing one balance patch or a thousand balance patches after the final game.

 

[`dazrin]

While that sounds all swell in theory, constant changes to a game discourage people from developing metagame. Furthermore, any fears that a character would be nonviable should be put to rest. We have public demos to prevent this sort of thing, as seen with changes and reworks made to characters from 2.1 -> 2.5. Additionally, while it may seem like the best thing would be to constantly update ProjectM with new features once it's finished, you have to realize that the PMBR is not going to be around forever. We are humans as well, and it's very likely that many major developers will have to take their leave once IRL priorities start to become too much.

Have faith in us- we strive for quality, and that is what the gold release of Project M will be.

 

[The_NZA]

While that sounds all swell in theory, constant changes to a game discourage people from developing metagame. Furthermore, any fears that a character would be nonviable should be put to rest. We have public demos to prevent this sort of thing, as seen with changes and reworks made to characters from 2.1 -> 2.5. Additionally, while it may seem like the best thing would be to constantly update ProjectM with new features once it's finished, you have to realize that the PMBR is not going to be around forever. We are humans as well, and it's very likely that many major developers will have to take their leave once IRL priorities start to become too much.

Have faith in us- we strive for quality, and that is what the gold release of Project M will be.

Its a complete illusion to say "patches discourage people from developing meta game." If you want to win, you'll always be coming up with strategies to overcome your opposition. With that said, its not an all or nothing process--people can patch a game while still letting the metagame develop. SC2 proves that much, as well as a number of other games. The 2nd purpose of this topic was to maybe set up a systematic way to pursue balance review. If minor cast changes were implemented every 6 months, the meta game would still develop significantly while sitll keeping characters relevant. We aren't talking about HUGE changes here (although maybe in the beginning there could be). As the game becomes less volatile and matchups get figured out, its easy to say "maybe fox's usmash should kill at 110% rather than 90%," or as you yourself mentioned, identify the core gameplay mechanic that is driving a play style and take away the dependency on it.

But i agree, in the early stages of a demo, looking at gameplay styles is significantly more important than looking at game balance. But eventually you will have to answer questions of balance at which time minor buffs/nerfs could be a good thing (with a emphasis on buffs since gaining more tools is welcomed in the metagame while losing them kinda sucks).

 

[Vashimus]

What he means is that people really wouldn't strive to figure out strategies to deal with certain matchups, and instead will just sit back and say, "Eh, the PMBR is gonna patch the game soon enough, then I won't have to deal with Fox's BS."

Also, a balance patch every six months? The game would never get a chance to settle. It's a safe bet to say 2.6 is on the horizon in order to iron out some minor glitches. But I would rather the PMBR focus on engine fixes and finish the 6 remaining characters rather than striving to balance the roster to point where it please everyone, which is pretty much impossible, since new threats rear their ugly heads all the time, even if the changes given to those characters were minor. Another character will soon be on everyone's threat list. Then 6 months later another balance patch, that characters gets changes, and then ANOTHER character becomes a threat. So then the PMBR has to balance them out 6 months later. See how tedious this gets? Smash is WAY different than Starcraft. Heck, fighting games in general are way different than Starcraft, and history has shown us that fighters will always have some characters better than others, no matter how many times you balance the game. SC2 is way outta left field.

Notice that the last two unreleased Brawl characters are also the best characters in that game. I could only imagine if they were released now in 2.5 and how many balance tweaks they would need in the future if enough people demanded it. The PMBR is not always gonna be there to bail us out when we have trouble with match ups, and we shouldn't get used to it. How is it we've managed to deal with top tiers in Melee for so long? P:M has a WAY more viable cast, and yet nothings changed? Like Dazee said , have faith in the PMBR.

 

[The_NZA]

What he means is that people really wouldn't strive to figure out strategies to deal with certain matchups, and instead will just sit back and say, "Eh, the PMBR is gonna patch the game soon enough, then I won't have to deal with Fox's BS."

Also, a balance patch every six months? The game would never get a chance to settle. It's a safe bet to say 2.6 is on the horizon in order to iron out some minor glitches. But I would rather the PMBR focus on engine fixes and finish the 6 remaining characters rather than striving to balance the roster to point where it please everyone, which is pretty much impossible, since new threats rear their ugly heads all the time, even if the changes given to those characters were minor. Another character will soon be on everyone's threat list. Then 6 months later another balance patch, that characters gets changes, and then ANOTHER character becomes a threat. So then the PMBR has to balance them out 6 months later. See how tedious this gets? Smash is WAY different than Starcraft. Heck, fighting games in general are way different than Starcraft, and history has shown us that fighters will always have some characters better than others, no matter how many times you balance the game. SC2 is way outta left field.

Notice that the last two unreleased Brawl characters are also the best characters in that game. I could only imagine if they were released now in 2.5 and how many balance tweaks they would need in the future if enough people demanded it. The PMBR is not always gonna be there to bail us out when we have trouble with match ups, and we shouldn't get used to it. How is it we've managed to deal with top tiers in Melee for so long? P:M has a WAY more viable cast, and yet nothings changed? Like Dazee said , have faith in the PMBR.

You can't make categorical statements about how Fighting games can never truly be balanced on the basis that it hasn't happened before. Really, there has never been a super active fighting game community where it could be assumed that each member had access to the internet and patch downloading. This game will be updated and each of its members will stay up to date, dling it to their sd cards. The meta game will become pretty stable when the game goes gold and after that it will be up to the backroom to decide what their relationship with balancing the game and their philosophy will be.

Will they take their hands off it, so that every tournament becomes 1 on 1 matchups of 9 characters? Or will they work to make it so we'll see 90% of the cast used with regularity, or even more?

I really think high tier users are just happy playing the game they understand--a game they dominate in, where the only enemies they need to specifically understand are 7 or 8 other characters.

Sometimes a minor change that disrupts the play of a couple high tier characters for a couple weeks is worth it to bring 4 or 5 low tier users who have been dedicated to their character into the competitive fold. I don't understand how anyone can in good conscious disagree with that point, all because their afraid people are going to whine.

Guess what. When we stopped whining in melee, we also lost a bit of our passion as we picked up high tier characters as secondaries just so we could viably play in our impossible matchups


EDIT:
It also does not have to be every 6 months. It could be annually. Whatever it is, I think the BR should figure it out and set it in stone so that they dont just publish the game when it goes gold and take their hands off it because "what else is there to do"

P.S. This is NOT about "faith" in the BR. If anything, me saying they should be the arbiters of balance IS me having faith in them. I just don't believe they will be able to design every character with complete knowledge of where the meta game will go and what advanced techniques will be around. At the same time, I strongly subscribe to a balance strategy that involves letting the metagame settle down.

 

[Vashimus]

Will they take their hands off it, so that every tournament becomes 1 on 1 matchups of 9 characters? Or will they work to make it so we'll see 90% of the cast used with regularity, or even more?

I really think high tier users are just happy playing the game they understand--a game they dominate in, where the only enemies they need to specifically understand are 7 or 8 other characters.

Sometimes a minor change that disrupts the play of a couple high tier characters for a couple weeks is worth it to bring 4 or 5 low tier users who have been dedicated to their character into the competitive fold. I don't understand how anyone can in good conscious disagree with that point, all because their afraid people are going to whine..

90% of the cast DOES get used with regularity, since every character in the Project M cast is more viable than 90% of the characters in Melee. This is not Melee.

I do not seeing the same 7 or 8 wrecking shop in tournaments all the time and character selection has been greatly varied, more varied than Melee ever was or WILL be. Really, the tier list in P:M is so condensed, it's the main reason why you hear people say "No one in the game is below Melee Ice Climbers." It's not completely lopsided in balance like Melee was. That's a good place to be, but any more tinkering is distracting the PMBR of what should be the biggest priority: engine fixes and the remaining characters. Balances can be done along the way, but constantly having to release updates on this game JUST for balancing? The character designers have lives, you know.

 

[Master WGS]

100% of the cast that isn't Fox is still less viable than Fox.

 

[The_NZA]

90% of the cast DOES get used with regularity, since every character in the Project M cast is more viable than 90% of the characters in Melee. This is not Melee.

I do not seeing the same 7 or 8 wrecking shop in tournaments all the time and character selection has been greatly varied, more varied than Melee ever was or WILL be. Really, the tier list in P:M is so condensed, it's the main reason why you hear people say "No one in the game is below Melee Ice Climbers." It's not completely lopsided in balance like Melee was. That's a good place to be, but any more tinkering is distracting the PMBR of what should be the biggest priority: engine fixes and the remaining characters. Balances can be done along the way, but constantly having to release updates on this game JUST for balancing? The character designers have lives, you know.

You and me agree on one major point: engine fixes and the remaining characters are more important and are a higher priority.

I agree with that. However, you have to realize that if this conversation does not occur before the game goes gold and we wait until everything is added in, then it is likely this conversation never will occur because generally when people complete a project, the last thing they want to do is revisit it to see what else needs to be done. I'm not looking for the Backroom to say "we are spending 50% of our time balancing the game currently". To be honest, the game hasn't even been out enough to really identify who is objectively better and whatnot. However, a commitment for the future and an understanding of our philosophy as a community would be invaluable at this juncture.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

90% of the cast DOES get used with regularity, since every character in the Project M cast is more viable than 90% of the characters in Melee. This is not Melee.

There's a difference between "viable" and "entertaining to play as." I'd say that many characters really don't see much use because of what appeals to the general public.

 

[TheBigBook]

If you think that of all his stats and moves that Fox's up-smash is why the character's so good, and that nerfing it is necessary, and that it would make a difference when he still has excellent ground movement, platform options, up throw into up air, and the shine...you might want to practice some Melee.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Well, perhaps if all the movement were matched with poor KO power in general, the amount of mistakes that Fox could potentially make (which tend to be quite costly) would be higher. That seems like a reasonable trade-off to me--A character you have to play perfectly to see real success to give the tech skill junkies something to enjoy without the advantage of being quite powerful on top of that.

Not saying that's necessarily how it should be, but, his mobility and useful strings (like U-Throw -> U-Air) would certainly feel much less threatening overall that way, I think.

 

[Dng3]

100% of the cast that isn't Fox is still less viable than Fox.

lol WGS your posts always make me laugh.

 

[The_NZA]

Well, perhaps if all the movement were matched with poor KO power in general, the amount of mistakes that Fox could potentially make (which tend to be quite costly) would be higher. That seems like a reasonable trade-off to me--A character you have to play perfectly to see real success to give the tech skill junkies something to enjoy without the advantage of being quite powerful on top of that.

Not saying that's necessarily how it should be, but, his mobility and useful strings (like U-Throw -> U-Air) would certainly feel much less threatening overall that way, I think.

This is my point. I would never want to nerf Fox in ways that makes him less fun to play. His technical advantages over his opponent is exactly why people play him, just like Ness's DJC is why I play him. But if Fox has so many tools for racking up damage and punishing mistakes, he probably also does not need some of the easiest vertical kill capabilities in the game.

 

[GaretHax]

Well, perhaps if all the movement were matched with poor KO power in general, the amount of mistakes that Fox could potentially make (which tend to be quite costly) would be higher. That seems like a reasonable trade-off to me-- A character you have to play perfectly to see real success to give the tech skill junkies something to enjoy without the advantage of being quite powerful on top of that.

Not saying that's necessarily how it should be, but, his mobility and useful strings (like U-Throw -> U-Air) would certainly feel much less threatening overall that way, I think.

I'm pretty sure this may already the main reason Fox doesn't win nationals or really anything big these days. When he is compared to characters who are "easier to use" and naturally more consistent I always end up feeling that Fox is the best only in theory. Personally I think Falco outshines him in every way when played by a human. Fox is fun to watch is TAS' and can be really intimidating, but I've seen to many low tier characters win by knowing how to play against him. But that's just me /shrug.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I feel like everything that's been said on this thread was covered by the first five posts or so.

 

[Phaiyte]

Am I the only one that really doesn't worry about the Fox mathup anymore? He's still super good yeah, but he also has to fight way harder than before to win.

Ness getting owned by an usmash at 90% is just an example of matchup issues. If you nerf his usmash, not only will it not kill Ness so quickly, it'll also take extensively longer to do it vs anyone heavier than he is. If you're thinking about balance, you've really gotta think about that kinda thing to. Besides, if you think usmash is the main problem with Fox, you gotta 'nother thing comin' boy. Also, I'm a firm believer that "kill moves" are A-OK at around 100%.

 

[GaretHax]

Am I the only one that really doesn't worry about the Fox mathup anymore? He's still super good yeah, but he also has to fight way harder than before to win.

Ness getting owned by an usmash at 90% is just an example of matchup issues. If you nerf his usmash, not only will it not kill Ness so quickly, it'll also take extensively longer to do it vs anyone heavier than he is. If you're thinking about balance, you've really gotta think about that kinda thing to. Besides, if you think usmash is the main problem with Fox, you gotta 'nother thing comin' boy. Also, I'm a firm believer that "kill moves" are A-OK at around 100%.

nope I believe this too =p

 

[The_NZA]

I think I understand the premise that balancing a character for one matchup has a rippling effect on all other matchups––that much is obvious. I just feel the options of usmash/uair, not only in their power but in their leadins and ease of use and lack of risk make them a prime property to take a second look at. Afterall, what does fox NOT have going for him. He has incredible recovery, in range and options. Amazing speed. Priority, combo potential, a strong projectile. He is hard to kill vertically (although easy to damage). He can kill as well as any good killer horizontally, and he can kill vertically arguably better than anyone else at no risk.

But this isn't a topic about balancing fox. Its about the viewpoint on balance overall. I think we've learned the following.

1. The Backroom has not considered balance a priority explicitly and has instead focused on playstyles that are unique and strong (based on comments in this forum by BR members)
2. THe Backroom should be focused on completing the game
3. We are no closer to understanding whether the Backroom intends to focus on balance later on, and if they plan to do so post release.
4. If they do plan on doing it post release, there has yet to be a systemized way proposed in doing it.

These are the current conclusions and I am fine with them. I simply wanted to put these concepts in the forefront because perfect character balance could be impossible, but it should be strived for and closely achieved, imo.

 

[The_NZA]

I'm pretty sure this may already the main reason Fox doesn't win nationals or really anything big these days. When he is compared to characters who are "easier to use" and naturally more consistent I always end up feeling that Fox is the best only in theory. Personally I think Falco outshines him in every way when played by a human. Fox is fun to watch is TAS' and can be really intimidating, but I've seen to many low tier characters win by knowing how to play against him. But that's just me /shrug.

While you may not think Fox is winning anything, he's still not showing bad results. He's still ending up in top 8's always and he will always continue to do so. Maybe certain opponents and matchups are weighed against him or are unforgiving when he makes mistakes and that makes him lose semis, finals, and grand finals but he is in no way just a good character in theory.

Now think in practicality what all of his advantages stack up in accomplishing. Yes, he might not win everything because of his strengths. But he makes other characters lose things. Think of every mid and low tier character in melee who lack viability (often times they are light) because they are out of the game against fox when they pass the 80% mark.

 

[GaretHax]

While you may not think Fox is winning anything, he's still not showing bad results. He's still ending up in top 8's always and he will always continue to do so. Maybe certain opponents and matchups are weighed against him or are unforgiving when he makes mistakes and that makes him lose semis, finals, and grand finals but he is in no way just a good character in theory.

Now think in practicality what all of his advantages stack up in accomplishing. Yes, he might not win everything because of his strengths. But he makes other characters lose things. Think of every mid and low tier character in melee who lack viability (often times they are light) because they are out of the game against fox when they pass the 80% mark.

IMO NTSC Shiek is a character who made others lose D-throw, her incredible neutral game and tilts, etc just straight out makes some characters unviable. To the best of my knowledge, and in my own opinion, Fox does not do this to any character in melee, pm, brawl, or 64. So I suppose I just don't agree with the entire premise of your post =/ I've seen alot of great foxes go down to just about any low teir character. He can be juggled and punished hard in melee by pretty much anyone in the cast cast and it only gets worse for him in PM... With the low tiers returning far stronger than they were in melee, I highly doubt a movement, techskill (based around not making any mistakes at high level really), and option based character like Fox will not feel the change.

 

[The_NZA]

We are straying off topic. This isn't about assessing which characters need balancing and which don't. It is a conversation about balancing more generally.

You may be right that shiek needs to be examined with more scrutiny than fox. But that isn't the point of the topic which is about balance more generally.

 

[Phaiyte]

If you really think about it, "generally" would have to include specific characters at some point, because each specific character affects every other character differently in some way or another. However I do believe that Shiek was pretty well dealt with for the meantime with the dash attack and dthrow nerf.

What I don't like though is that almost every character seems like their kit almost solely works on fast fallers. As far as balance goes the best bets are to make each character's choices similar to those of Falcon, DK, Mario, and Link (most balanced characters in the game imo). What I mean by that, is that they may not have ~*~AmAziNG~*~ options against certain characters, but they all most definitely have something to work with for the whole cast, and usually must play very differently against almost every character to stay successful.

 

[GaretHax]

We are straying off topic. This isn't about assessing which characters need balancing and which don't. It is a conversation about balancing more generally.

You may be right that shiek needs to be examined with more scrutiny than fox. But that isn't the point of the topic which is about balance more generally.

All of the posts following Daze's have been off topic, also I think you misunderstood me. I was responding to your example, and model of Fox being a character who doesn't beat the lower tiers. But rather simply makes them lose due to superior options. I felt it didn't apply to him very much, if at all, but rather applies to a character of shiek-esque design. But anyway lol. You heard Daze and its on the op. They want to make a game that slightly favors offense vs defense with the characters balanced ideally around the A tier characters. Also I'm very much in favor of the Shiek changes.