A post I wrote on GameFAQs: Sheik got nerfed. . . So what?

[CaP_Omega]

So the reception for the nerfs and buffs from the latest patch is pretty diverse, and there seems to be a lot of hype surrounding Sheik right now. With that, I just decided that I'd give my thoughts. I wrote this long-winded statement on GameFAQs just a moment ago about my thoughts and feelings on the whole debacle that's going on, and much to my expectation, I was going to get trolled at least a little bit. Given that the etiquette standards are a lot higher here on SmashBoards, I thought I would post the very same statement on this forum as well. So here it is:

"This patch did admittedly hit Sheik pretty hard, because, now, she doesn't have any more easy-bake kill confirms and she is a bit more approachable due to her decreased range on her F-air and her Needles. However, she's not nearly as bad as people are making her out to be, because she still racks damage really fast (even still with her F-air linking into itself at low and mid-high percents), still has some of the best offstage game and recovery ability, still applies pressure extremely well, and still has Bouncing Fish kill confirms from offstage F-air and late hit N-air. And guess what? All you have to do to get a strong kill otherwise is get a decent read with U-air, Bouncing Fish, or one of her Smash attacks -which is almost exactly like what a huge majority of the rest of the cast is forced to do almost all of the time. Sheik lost nothing that made her a great character, but there is a sea of people complaining about the respective nerfs, a large portion of those people commenting on ZeRo's latest video about them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TacMTv3yTdU
Right now, people are acting like Sheik isn't even a top tier ("high-mid tier", "ruined", "Sheik isn't even viable anymore", etc.) just because they can't get pressure and stocks for free anymore. But instead of being told that they should adapt, they're getting sympathy! Imagine that; whenever you go somewhere and someone is talking about how their low tier main isn't getting enough buffs, most of the time you see people telling them that they're being a baby and they should adapt, but when someone is talking about how the highest tier character with no losing matchups gets nerfed, the general consensus for everyone is to lose their s*** or act like there should be a ceremony for the death of Smash. . .
Let me tell everyone something about babies: they love having everything they can get, they love having the most, and they don't care how much anybody else has as long as they have what they want. But if you take that away from them, that's when they start whining, and they think everyone else is the bad guy. Everyone knows this, it's human nature. Now, put it into perspective: the character you use is determined by your choice depending on what you want. If you knowingly pick a lower tier character, you are willingly strapping yourself onto a rollercoaster. If you knowingly pick a higher tier character, you are in it to win it, no matter what. So if you knowingly pick the best character in the game and feel satisfied by winning with free kills, and then lose your s*** and make a scene when you suddenly don't have that one little thing that lets you do that anymore, you are a spoiled, little baby. And you didn't deserve to have that thing you enjoyed so much, not even an ounce.
Everyone, pick a character that you enjoy as a character and not some object for your euphoric pleasure of easy wins. There's only one way to adapt, and that's growing up and realizing what you really want from yourself. Adaptation doesn't come from learning what's on the outside, it comes from learning what's inside you.
. . .
Alright, I might have gone a little too far deep for a moment there, but my point remains: there is no reason for any competent player to be complaining about Sheik or saying that she is not even close to her original tier placement. All of what made her a great character is still intact. Just appreciate that she's still a great character with a lot of options, you only have to do what almost everyone else has had to do for the past year or so."
. . . and that's it.
Well, to conclude, I'd like to hear anyone's thoughts (and I guess I hope I was a bit of an inspiration in a way). So if you agree or disagree, shoot - I love feedback.
Also, I especially thank anyone who read the whole post - I love to write out my extended thoughts.
Peace

 

[GeflGabe]

I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner.

 

[S_B]

All you have to do to get a strong kill otherwise is get a decent read with U-air, Bouncing Fish, or one of her Smash attacks -which is almost exactly like what a huge majority of the rest of the cast is forced to do almost all of the time.

A hundred billion times, THIS!

I hate to compare this to social situations, but a Sheik player complaining that they have to fish for kills now (with a character that is still amazing at safely fishing for kills...) is like a rich person complaining that they have to work for a living because the IRS audited their family after 30 years of unpaid taxes (and to complete the metaphor, they still have all of the connections they had from being wealthy at their disposal).

Most characters DON'T have kill confirms, and I'm not just referring to "A-tier and up" like most people seem to believe comprises the entire cast list. I mean the entire...cast...list. The characters that DO have reliable kill confirms typically have notable weaknesses to compensate, and yet most of the worst characters in the game still have NO kill confirms to speak of (DH, JP, D3, Shulk, etc.).

I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner.

I theorize that Sakurai leaving allowed the Namco team to be more liberal in their balancing, as Sheik was an obvious problem for over a year with no action taken by the team until now.

In conclusion, Sheik is still an AMAZING character. She'll just need to rely upon reads to earn her KOs like most of the cast, except she'll still have one of best frame datas in the game on her side as she pursues them.

 

[CaP_Omega]

I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner.

I was too, but after hearing what S_B said about Sakurai leaving and Bandai taking over, it's no surprise we that we got a balance patch that people have been losing stocks for in tournaments over the past year.

A hundred billion times, THIS!

I hate to compare this to social situations, but a Sheik player complaining that they have to fish for kills now (with a character that is still amazing at safely fishing for kills...) is like a rich person complaining that they have to work for a living because the IRS audited their family after 30 years of unpaid taxes (and to complete the metaphor, they still have all of the connections they had from being wealthy at their disposal).

Most characters DON'T have kill confirms, and I'm not just referring to "A-tier and up" like most people seem to believe comprises the entire cast list. I mean the entire...cast...list. The characters that DO have reliable kill confirms typically have notable weaknesses to compensate, and yet most of the worst characters in the game still have NO kill confirms to speak of (DH, JP, D3, Shulk, etc.).



I theorize that Sakurai leaving allowed the Namco team to be more liberal in their balancing, as Sheik was an obvious problem for over a year with no action taken by the team until now.

In conclusion, Sheik is still an AMAZING character. She'll just need to rely upon reads to earn her KOs like most of the cast, except she'll still have one of best frame datas in the game on her side as she pursues them.

My thoughts exactly, it's really kind of a pity how this this situation for Sheik's fans can be compared to the breakdown of an autocratic system: one figure or element that governs the system is suddenly lost and everyone runs around like chickens with their heads cut off. Nonetheless, I'm glad that we're at least getting to a point where the roster is getting more proper balancing.

 

[S_B]

Nonetheless, I'm glad that we're at least getting to a point where the roster is getting more proper balancing.

Same.

I'm not naive enough to believe that there would ever come a day when we could realistically expect that ANY of the 58 characters in this game could potentially take a national tournament. However, think of how amazing it would be if we could even get the number to, say, 20 characters instead of the 2-3 we have now.

How awesome would it be to see a grand finals come down to Zelda vs. DK, or Ganondorf vs. Shulk? The only reason we don't expect that kind of thing now is because we're just so used to having a dominant tier and anything below that tier is just assumed to be garbage.

But there's no precedent for that kind of thing in modern fighting games, or class based games like Team Fortress 2, or MOBAs, or MMOs. If a class/character is too strong or too weak, the developer usually balances accordingly.

I'm extremely glad that the "queens" have fallen (though I still question how much they'll truly drop) because I want to see VARIETY in the high levels of SSB4, and to anyone who says, "Well, _____ will just take over as best character now!" A) that's what further balance patches are for and B ) it's fully possible to reach a point where no one is truly certain of who's the "best" character any longer.

In fact, if the title of "best character" were hotly debated, it would be the best thing for the meta, ever...

 

[WondrousMoose]

Same.

I'm not naive enough to believe that there would ever come a day when we could realistically expect that ANY of the 58 characters in this game could potentially take a national tournament. However, think of how amazing it would be if we could even get the number to, say, 20 characters instead of the 2-3 we have now.

How awesome would it be to see a grand finals come down to Zelda vs. DK, or Ganondorf vs. Shulk? The only reason we don't expect that kind of thing now is because we're just so used to having a dominant tier and anything below that tier is just assumed to be garbage.

But there's no precedent for that kind of thing in modern fighting games, or class based games like Team Fortress 2, or MOBAs, or MMOs. If a class/character is too strong or too weak, the developer usually balances accordingly.

I'm extremely glad that the "queens" have fallen (though I still question how much they'll truly drop) because I want to see VARIETY in the high levels of SSB4, and to anyone who says, "Well, _____ will just take over as best character now!" A) that's what further balance patches are for and B ) it's fully possible to reach a point where no one is truly certain of who's the "best" character any longer.

In fact, if the title of "best character" were hotly debated, it would be the best thing for the meta, ever...

I definitely disagree with the notion that the "low tier" fighters don't win tournaments because no one tries. You see a huge variety lower in the brackets, but the worse ones lose to the better ones. Top tier fighters weren't arbitrarily appointed their reputations; they earned them by being better than everyone else. It's nice to see variety, but better fighters are just going to do better in the end.

 

[S_B]

I definitely disagree with the notion that the "low tier" fighters don't win tournaments because no one tries. You see a huge variety lower in the brackets, but the worse ones lose to the better ones. Top tier fighters weren't arbitrarily appointed their reputations; they earned them by being better than everyone else.

I not sure what part of my post you're debating with this. I never said that no one tries with low tiers, nor that top tier fighters are where they are for any reason other than that they're the best in the game.

It's nice to see variety, but better fighters are just going to do better in the end.

And it's the job of a good development team to ensure that the title of "better fighter" is as hard to award as possible.

And no, that's not some impossible dream, either.

If you look at the top tiers and the bottom tiers, you'll see a pretty good consensus among most tournament players as to where all of these characters belong. It is (was) extremely rare to see Zelda or Samus in anything but bottom tier, and you certainly wouldn't see them in mid, just as you wouldn't see ZSS in B tier anywhere.

However, when you look at the middle of most tier lists, you'll see something else entirely: people can generally agree that these characters are NEAR the middle, but no one can really nail down exactly WHERE. Around mid, it's commonplace for no one to really be able to decide who beats who for sure. Even the individual character boards for mid-tiers often don't have a clear opinion on what other mid-tiers their character does or doesn't beat, probably because most of these characters are fairly close to balanced, and with that success in mind, there's no reason for the dev team to stop balancing now.

One thing to note: the distance between SSB4 Sheik and the B-tier may have been INFINITELY closer than, say, Melee Fox and Melee's B-tier, but that doesn't mean there wasn't a distance, nor that said distance shouldn't be closed as much as possible if possible.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Yay a person who knows nothing about what they're talking about... is writing a post pretending to know everything

I'll write a more serious post when i can. People beating down sheik players saying thay have nothing to complain about are disgusting. This isn't like the diddy nerf, its a lot worse. And i'd love to be proven wrong.

 

[S_B]

People beating down sheik players saying thay have nothing to complain about are disgusting.

No one's "beating down" anyone. The OP is actually encouraging optimism in the face of the nerf, and the only things Sheik lost were the kill confirms and to a lesser extent the f-airplane.

Sheik still has:
-one of the best (if not THE best) frame datas in the game
-some of the best damage racking
-god tier recovery
-plenty of safe pokes
-a projectile that covers more than half of FD (still), is transcendent, and forces projectile camping characters to approach her

Now, you'll have to fish for a bouncing fish off stage, an air dodge bait to Uair, a vanish kill (which still has squat for lag when landing on stage, remember), or an old fashioned gimp via F/Bair.

Is that TRULY the end of the character?

Maybe it's just a lack of perspective for Sheik players, but I suggest trying out DH, D3, Shulk, or any of the other characters who have to get reads and fish for their kills, and they have to do so WITHOUT the aforementioned list of things Sheik has going for her...

 

[WondrousMoose]

I not sure what part of my post you're debating with this. I never said that no one tries with low tiers, nor that top tier fighters are where they are for any reason other than that they're the best in the game.



And it's the job of a good development team to ensure that the title of "better fighter" is as hard to award as possible.

And no, that's not some impossible dream, either.

If you look at the top tiers and the bottom tiers, you'll see a pretty good consensus among most tournament players as to where all of these characters belong. It is (was) extremely rare to see Zelda or Samus in anything but bottom tier, and you certainly wouldn't see them in mid, just as you wouldn't see ZSS in B tier anywhere.

However, when you look at the middle of most tier lists, you'll see something else entirely: people can generally agree that these characters are NEAR the middle, but no one can really nail down exactly WHERE. Around mid, it's commonplace for no one to really be able to decide who beats who for sure. Even the individual character boards for mid-tiers often don't have a clear opinion on what other mid-tiers their character does or doesn't beat, probably because most of these characters are fairly close to balanced, and with that success in mind, there's no reason for the dev team to stop balancing now.

One thing to note: the distance between SSB4 Sheik and the B-tier may have been INFINITELY closer than, say, Melee Fox and Melee's B-tier, but that doesn't mean there wasn't a distance, nor that said distance shouldn't be closed as much as possible if possible.

That's what I was responding to:

How awesome would it be to see a grand finals come down to Zelda vs. DK, or Ganondorf vs. Shulk? The only reason we don't expect that kind of thing now is because we're just so used to having a dominant tier and anything below that tier is just assumed to be garbage.

I'm extremely glad that the "queens" have fallen (though I still question how much they'll truly drop) because I want to see VARIETY in the high levels of SSB4, and to anyone who says, "Well, _____ will just take over as best character now!" A) that's what further balance patches are for and B ) it's fully possible to reach a point where no one is truly certain of who's the "best" character any longer.

While I'm back here...

What bugs me about your original post is the implicit assumption that Sheik got free kills before the nerf. She has always had to fight for her kills. It was widely known that she had trouble ending stocks by pros, commentators, and random players. Yes, she still has a lot of options, but she had some of her best removed and then replaced with nothing else. This isn't Nintendo encouraging different play for Sheik; this is Nintendo taking her options and expecting us to just be worse. Ideally, a nerf forces players to reconsider how they've used their character and to get creative with the new options. While there will probably be new things discovered with the changes, they won't be nearly as effective, and Sheik is an objectively worse character for it.

 

[Saki_JPC]

I think the big problem with this whole "Sheik is now like every other character" deal, now we have to fish for kills, just like everyone else. However, Sheik isn't very good at fishing for that kill. Needles to BF, Upsmash on platforms... yeah. Sheik isn't Mario or Ryu with some sort of invincible whatsawhoozit, or Zss/Bayo/Rosa/Pika/Sonic with grab combos to death or 50/50. Sheik has absolutely abysmal shield pressure with the Fair and needles range nerf, and people shouldn't be scared of being scared of getting grabbed at kill percent. Hold shield=sheik is bad unless you want to grenade->BF shield every time, which I don't. The range and places where Sheik can kill are ass compared to other characters. Onstage, Sheik suffers. What Sheik does have is her offstage game and forcing characters offstage, where her kills are better. Still, Sheik is definitely less scary, to the point where her play will be fundamentally different.
I guess the big problem with the post is calling me a baby, when it's not about the "best character" getting nerfed, but rather the character that I want to play because her play was fun and the character was awesome getting nerfed. I mean, the OP has Greninja listed as a main. I would think you would be a little more understanding.

 

[ArikadoSD]

No one's "beating down" anyone. The OP is actually encouraging optimism in the face of the nerf, and the only things Sheik lost were the kill confirms and to a lesser extent the f-airplane.

Sheik still has:
-one of the best (if not THE best) frame datas in the game
-some of the best damage racking
-god tier recovery
-plenty of safe pokes
-a projectile that covers more than half of FD (still), is transcendent, and forces projectile camping characters to approach her

Now, you'll have to fish for a bouncing fish off stage, an air dodge bait to Uair, a vanish kill (which still has squat for lag when landing on stage, remember), or an old fashioned gimp via F/Bair.

Is that TRULY the end of the character?

Maybe it's just a lack of perspective for Sheik players, but I suggest trying out DH, D3, Shulk, or any of the other characters who have to get reads and fish for their kills, and they have to do so WITHOUT the aforementioned list of things Sheik has going for her...

Why are you comparing a previously-#1 to bottom tier characters?...

That conparison is extremely wrong in the beginning lmao. No ****ing **** d3/dh had to work for kills. They're kinda terrible characters.

Frame data doesnt mean anything if you cant kill. Winning neutral 100 times doesnt matter if all it takes is to lose neutral once or twice for opponents to catch up. Good gimping doesnt matter when every single recovery is amazing and sheik losong stage control often means shes at a HUGE disadvantage state...

Ur listing her pros but really theyre not pros and her cons now outweigh the pros by a lot.

 

[ShinRamen]

The real issue with there being zero reason to fear her grab at kill %, ie fox syndrome, is that her smashes are trash compared to fox's, and she doesn't have a fox up air/ bair for killing - especially bair which is a good shield pressure tool. It also makes her f tilt and d tilt setups much harder to land since there's very little risk to shielding against her.

Combine that with considerable neutral game nerfs (fair and needle range), a nerfed low/mid % combo game and an even bigger reason to fear rage due to ANOTHER weight nerf...

She's still sheik, ofc, but the argument isn't that she's now trash - rather, she's been nerfed much more than necessary to please anyone. What's done is done tho, time to move forward!

 

[S_B]

What bugs me about your original post is the implicit assumption that Sheik got free kills before the nerf. She has always had to fight for her kills. It was widely known that she had trouble ending stocks by pros, commentators, and random players.

1. Everything in a fighting game is relative: the question isn't how difficult of a time Sheik has ending stocks, but how difficult of a time she has ending stocks vs. how hard of a time the rest of the cast does (especially against Sheik).

2. If Sheik truly had problems ending stocks, she wouldn't have been the best character in the game.

While there will probably be new things discovered with the changes, they won't be nearly as effective, and Sheik is an objectively worse character for it.

Well, yeah, that's the point. Sheik was far too strong before and needed toning down.

That conparison is extremely wrong in the beginning lmao. No ****ing **** d3/dh had to work for kills. They're kinda terrible characters.

And why should Sheik not be a terrible character? Where exactly is it written that Sheik is supposed to be the best character in the game?

It may have taken Sakurai going on vacation (or possibly leaving the project entirely) for Namco to finally jump in and nerf the top tier, but it's pretty clear that that they want the game to be balanced, not have an obvious "best character in the game" that the tier list is then supposed to form around.

Frame data doesnt mean anything if you cant kill. Winning neutral 100 times doesnt matter if all it takes is to lose neutral once or twice for opponents to catch up. Good gimping doesnt matter when every single recovery is amazing and sheik losong stage control often means shes at a HUGE disadvantage state...

1. You can still kill, and as any Sheik player knows, her amazing frame data makes it possible for her to rack tons of damage while taking relatively little herself.

2. When you say "every single recovery", I assume you mean "S tier characters" because there are still plenty of characters with gimpable recoveries in this game.

3. If Sheik actually HAS a disadvantaged state now, then the nerf has done its job because she didn't have a disadvantaged state before.

 

[NewZen]

I think the big problem with this whole "Sheik is now like every other character" deal, now we have to fish for kills, just like everyone else. However, Sheik isn't very good at fishing for that kill. Needles to BF, Upsmash on platforms... yeah. Sheik isn't Mario or Ryu with some sort of invincible whatsawhoozit, or Zss/Bayo/Rosa/Pika/Sonic with grab combos to death or 50/50. Sheik has absolutely abysmal shield pressure with the Fair and needles range nerf, and people shouldn't be scared of being scared of getting grabbed at kill percent. Hold shield=sheik is bad unless you want to grenade->BF shield every time, which I don't. The range and places where Sheik can kill are *** compared to other characters. Onstage, Sheik suffers. What Sheik does have is her offstage game and forcing characters offstage, where her kills are better. Still, Sheik is definitely less scary, to the point where her play will be fundamentally different.
I guess the big problem with the post is calling me a baby, when it's not about the "best character" getting nerfed, but rather the character that I want to play because her play was fun and the character was awesome getting nerfed. I mean, the OP has Greninja listed as a main. I would think you would be a little more understanding.

There's being upset that a character you found fun was nerfed and being upset that your fun character was fun because they were ridiculous-guess what a lot of Sheik mains try to cover it up as...Look, your character getting nerfed is problematic, I can understand that, but in no way can you honestly tell me that Sheik didn't deserve a nerf somewhere in her main arsenal, given that a lot of the "problems" you listed were utter BS considering many Sheik mains have more or less displaced those "negatives":Her pressure game destroyed most of the cast, her projectiles were ludicrously safe, her recovery was basically guaranteed and she had the frame data to back it up.

Heck, Luigi is one of my mains-he lost faster Fireballs and lost D-Throw>Cyclone kill confirms at lower percents, and instead of whining and ******** like a lot free players tend to do (I say "Free" because if these Sheik mains truly liked their character, then they'd stick with her instead of drop her like a 5-Dollar hooker), I didn't let it bother me, because if I truly liked the character, then losing something that easy to pull off would've just taught me to adapt, as I knew he had other options besides that one set-up. I also play Toon Link and Mega Man, two characters that didn't simply hit the opponent a few times and watched as they hopelessly tried to recover back on the stage. Even then, she's not flat out terrible like a lot of whiny Sheik players have been complaining about lately, as she still has a great toolset that makes her a threat, so really-why should anyone feel sympathy when people felt like picking the character because she was "Easy Mode" to them?

 

[CaP_Omega]

I think the big problem with this whole "Sheik is now like every other character" deal, now we have to fish for kills, just like everyone else. However, Sheik isn't very good at fishing for that kill. Needles to BF, Upsmash on platforms... yeah. Sheik isn't Mario or Ryu with some sort of invincible whatsawhoozit, or Zss/Bayo/Rosa/Pika/Sonic with grab combos to death or 50/50. Sheik has absolutely abysmal shield pressure with the Fair and needles range nerf, and people shouldn't be scared of being scared of getting grabbed at kill percent. Hold shield=sheik is bad unless you want to grenade->BF shield every time, which I don't. The range and places where Sheik can kill are *** compared to other characters. Onstage, Sheik suffers. What Sheik does have is her offstage game and forcing characters offstage, where her kills are better. Still, Sheik is definitely less scary, to the point where her play will be fundamentally different.
I guess the big problem with the post is calling me a baby, when it's not about the "best character" getting nerfed, but rather the character that I want to play because her play was fun and the character was awesome getting nerfed. I mean, the OP has Greninja listed as a main. I would think you would be a little more understanding.

Firstly: Saying that Sheik has a hard time fishing for the kill is no excuse to say she is so much worse. She was never implicitly forced to fish for a kill because she had great offensive pressure and excellent camping, mixed with killing followups from her tilts and F-air at even high percents at the end of the stage - all of which she still has. You wanna know what other characters can do that? None. And as a circumstance, every other character has at least an equally hard time fishing for kills. In fact a lot of other characters also have a hard time landing Smash attacks, it's not just her.
Secondly: Abismal sheild pressure? Grab. Her throws are not useless just because she has a few less followups and doesn't have a 50/50 anymore - force them to jump, read an air dodge, it's what the rest of the upper tier cast has to do.
Thirdly: I play Greninja because he has the hypest mixups and combos in the game. I don't need crazy smash attacks, an extremely low lag projectile, or an overpowered Hydro Pump to have fun, and I don't need an absolute upper hand over the rest of the cast to have the will to win.

 

[TurboLink]

Firstly: Saying that Sheik has a hard time fishing for the kill is no excuse to say she is so much worse. She was never implicitly forced to fish for a kill because she had great offensive pressure and excellent camping, mixed with killing followups from her tilts and F-air at even high percents at the end of the stage - all of which she still has. You wanna know what other characters can do that? None. And as a circumstance, every other character has at least an equally hard time fishing for kills. In fact a lot of other characters also have a hard time landing Smash attacks, it's not just her.
Secondly: Abismal sheild pressure? Grab. Her throws are not useless just because she has a few less followups and doesn't have a 50/50 anymore - force them to jump, read an air dodge, it's what the rest of the upper tier cast has to do.
Thirdly: I play Greninja because he has the hypest mixups and combos in the game. I don't need crazy smash attacks, an extremely low lag projectile, or an overpowered Hydro Pump to have fun, and I don't need an absolute upper hand over the rest of the cast to have the will to win.

Sheik's throws are useless at high percents and she doesn't have a kill throw.

Sheik's fair doesn't seem to do much shield damage so yes her shield pressure is abysmal. Add in how good dodge rolls in general are and that shields regenerate quickly and you see how she has bad shield pressuring.

 

[CaP_Omega]

Sheik's throws are useless at high percents and she doesn't have a kill throw.

Sheik's fair doesn't seem to do much shield damage so yes her shield pressure is abysmal. Add in how good dodge rolls in general are and that shields regenerate quickly and you see how she has bad shield pressuring.

Look, I can't give you extensive instructions on how to make a read on this thread, because I'd be going against the official guidelines, so go to the competitive discussion boards or something.
Heck, if I didn't know any better I'd say you're trying to flame me, because I can refute your argument with the points I already made, but from my experience, that's considered spam. So learn your new Sheik - she has no useless tools, and that's the bottom line, at least for her.

 

[ArikadoSD]

1. You can still kill, and as any Sheik player knows, her amazing frame data makes it possible for her to rack tons of damage while taking relatively little herself.

2. When you say "every single recovery", I assume you mean "S tier characters" because there are still plenty of characters with gimpable recoveries in this game.

3. If Sheik actually HAS a disadvantaged state now, then the nerf has done its job because she didn't have a disadvantaged state before.

1. Just saying "you can still kill and u have amazing frame data lmao" doesn't mean anything. No, she can't kill anymore, because her kill setups are a lot more situational than grab setups, cuz she relies on getting the tipper dtilt hitbox, getting a point blank ftilt, or a random bouncing fish/uair or if you're really lucky a weak nair, although that's extremely punishable cuz nair's hitbox is actually pretty small. sure she can rack up damage quickly I agree with you, but that does't give her any sort of extreme advantage over anyone else. If she had consistent kill setups, then yes, i'd say she does.

2. No I mean every single recovery except maybe mac and cloud. Magnet hands + a lot of recoveries either having hitboxes or being not easy to react to make them pretty darn amazing in this game. a very handful few recoveries are actually legit bad like doc falcon or rob.

3. She had a disadvantage state before. Saying she didn't just confirms to me that you barely know what you're talking about. If you actually bothered at looking for weaknesses that Sheik has you'd have realized she has trouble landing against characters with good mobility and decent aerials and unlike other top tiers she can't kill off a read anywhere on the stage until pretty high percents, or if you're lucky enough to get an airdodge read to the ground or something at ~90-100% and get a usmash kill. She is also very easy to combo due to a combination of being tall and a fastfaller + having perfect combo weight. Her disadvantage state is just very very bad right now, worse than fox's i'd say.

Firstly: Saying that Sheik has a hard time fishing for the kill is no excuse to say she is so much worse. She was never implicitly forced to fish for a kill because she had great offensive pressure and excellent camping, mixed with killing followups from her tilts and F-air at even high percents at the end of the stage - all of which she still has. You wanna know what other characters can do that? None. And as a circumstance, every other character has at least an equally hard time fishing for kills. In fact a lot of other characters also have a hard time landing Smash attacks, it's not just her.
Secondly: Abismal sheild pressure? Grab. Her throws are not useless just because she has a few less followups and doesn't have a 50/50 anymore - force them to jump, read an air dodge, it's what the rest of the upper tier cast has to do.
Thirdly: I play Greninja because he has the hypest mixups and combos in the game. I don't need crazy smash attacks, an extremely low lag projectile, or an overpowered Hydro Pump to have fun, and I don't need an absolute upper hand over the rest of the cast to have the will to win.

1. Fox can do that lol. Utilt > uair combos until really high percents and kills way earlier than anything Sheik had, and Fox's utilt has much more utility than sheik's ftilt. Meta knight, Diddy, Ryu, and probably many more characters I'm missing. Sheik could killl off a tilt or a safe aerial? holy **** no other character has that! BROKEN! NERF! (in reality many characters have that rofl.)

2. I feel like you're throwing the words "it's what everyone else does" without actually thinking much behind it. No it's not what the rest of the cast does. Rosalina looks for luma dairs/uairs or very non-laggy smash attacks to kill, Cloud has limit and amazing disjointed aerials that kill, Bayo has 0-deaths... Diddy has dtilt > everything or uthrow > uair, or banana > anything... Fox has utilt > uair or soft nair/dair > usmash and just uair juggles in general which he can throw way more than Sheik can, Ness has bthrow, Luigi has bthrow and hard-to-punish smashes.... bowser and DK have 2 hit throw kill confirms, Lucina has a few kill confirms off nair and side b, or jab, mac has jab/dtilt > ko punch, dtilt > up b, or just spamming smashes in general at the ledge...

I just went down the tier list and they all have kill confirms where they don't have to read an airdodge/double jump/landing or whatever to kill... so yeah, you can't just throw "everyone else had it the hard way and you didn't" bs. And yes, she has abysmal shield pressure.

3. Feels to me like you're just Sheik-shaming the Sheik mains here with that statement lmao. It's also funny cuz gren has a less laggy projectile with more reach now than Sheik. And yes, needles had lag, believe it or not you can run up shield and punish it. Needles aren't an insta-win button in the neutral, you can't just press b. it's mostly used for covering options and that's it. Sometimes it's good in the neutral sure but only when it starts popping them up.

 

[Saki_JPC]

Firstly: Saying that Sheik has a hard time fishing for the kill is no excuse to say she is so much worse. She was never implicitly forced to fish for a kill because she had great offensive pressure and excellent camping, mixed with killing followups from her tilts and F-air at even high percents at the end of the stage - all of which she still has. You wanna know what other characters can do that? None. And as a circumstance, every other character has at least an equally hard time fishing for kills. In fact a lot of other characters also have a hard time landing Smash attacks, it's not just her.
Secondly: Abismal sheild pressure? Grab. Her throws are not useless just because she has a few less followups and doesn't have a 50/50 anymore - force them to jump, read an air dodge, it's what the rest of the upper tier cast has to do.
Thirdly: I play Greninja because he has the hypest mixups and combos in the game. I don't need crazy smash attacks, an extremely low lag projectile, or an overpowered Hydro Pump to have fun, and I don't need an absolute upper hand over the rest of the cast to have the will to win.

I I did mention her offstage game was still supreme, even after the nerf. What the nerf did was change how the mid-early kill percents were played,namely by completely removing them. Also, Sheik actually can't capitalize very well off of her grabs anymore, namely dthrow and fthrow send the enemy so far away, Sheik has almost no followups at all, even with a baited airdodge. Bthrow still does the job maybe 1/30 times, uthrow maybe 1/50. Tilts to a kill? Ryu is probably the best example. It's his fundamental playstyle. Doesn't Greninja have utilt to kill options, or am I mis-remembering? Haven't played him much. Doesn't he also have an upair to kill potion, or aerials that straight up kill at normal kill percent? But, mainly Ryu.
While you may not need those things, wasn't it nice when you had them? Now play is fundamentally different, and you play differently. Sheiks have that now, along with a long year of anti-Sheik optimization that now shunts the character to no longer solo-main viable(THIS BIT IS AN OPINION).

There's being upset that a character you found fun was nerfed and being upset that your fun character was fun because they were ridiculous-guess what a lot of Sheik mains try to cover it up as...Look, your character getting nerfed is problematic, I can understand that, but in no way can you honestly tell me that Sheik didn't deserve a nerf somewhere in her main arsenal, given that a lot of the "problems" you listed were utter BS considering many Sheik mains have more or less displaced those "negatives":Her pressure game destroyed most of the cast, her projectiles were ludicrously safe, her recovery was basically guaranteed and she had the frame data to back it up.

Heck, Luigi is one of my mains-he lost faster Fireballs and lost D-Throw>Cyclone kill confirms at lower percents, and instead of whining and ******** like a lot free players tend to do (I say "Free" because if these Sheik mains truly liked their character, then they'd stick with her instead of drop her like a 5-Dollar hooker), I didn't let it bother me, because if I truly liked the character, then losing something that easy to pull off would've just taught me to adapt, as I knew he had other options besides that one set-up. I also play Toon Link and Mega Man, two characters that didn't simply hit the opponent a few times and watched as they hopelessly tried to recover back on the stage. Even then, she's not flat out terrible like a lot of whiny Sheik players have been complaining about lately, as she still has a great toolset that makes her a threat, so really-why should anyone feel sympathy when people felt like picking the character because she was "Easy Mode" to them?

Luigi lost dthrow cyclone and fireballs. Sure, that sucked really bad. He still had it as a 50/50. Sheik's killing kit was only 50/50s on stage, and Sakurai took all of the ones that were super scary. We have tilt to 50/50, yes it works. You just hold shield, and you shouldn't care that you got grabbed. Sheik doesn't have many other options onstage anymore for kills, she kills almost exclusively on filthy, filthy reads. And besides, I don't pick characters for their easy-mode status.I'm sure that many other people don't as well. I guess we deserve a little sympathy because, while I think that yes, she deserved nerfs, she now faces a world where she now falls a little behind the top tiers (I think she's not quite the top of high tier), but has so much tech against her from her time as the best that she may fall lower than that. I'm staying Sheik, no doubt.

I guess my point is that Sheik is now a (maybe mid-to-)high tier character facing the scrutiny of a top-tier... Diddy and Luigi got that as well. But Sheik has it worst of all. But, I shall power on.

 

[elmike]

Sheik was (imo) the only OP character in the game (probably along with bayo?). If huge nerfs were needed to solve the problem, then its ok because even with the nerfs she is still at the very least high tier (and i'm sure she will still be top tier on Zero's list)...

 

[S_B]

1. Just saying "you can still kill and u have amazing frame data lmao" doesn't mean anything. No, she can't kill anymore, because her kill setups are a lot more situational than grab setups, cuz she relies on getting the tipper dtilt hitbox, getting a point blank ftilt, or a random bouncing fish/uair or if you're really lucky a weak nair, although that's extremely punishable cuz nair's hitbox is actually pretty small. sure she can rack up damage quickly I agree with you, but that does't give her any sort of extreme advantage over anyone else. If she had consistent kill setups, then yes, i'd say she does.

She doesn't have consistent kill setups because she has literally everything else except consistent kill setups.

2. No I mean every single recovery except maybe mac and cloud. Magnet hands + a lot of recoveries either having hitboxes or being not easy to react to make them pretty darn amazing in this game. a very handful few recoveries are actually legit bad like doc falcon or rob.

The vast majority of recoveries in this game are either gimpable or interceptable, especially for Sheik.

In high tier of the official tier list alone: Rosa, Ryu, Fox, Mario, Diddy, Cloud, and Ness should NEVER be making it back to the ledge for free against Sheik.

BF + jump + vanish means Sheik can go VERY deep to hit people off the stage.

I've seen good Sheiks drop to the very bottom of the screen to BF Ness before he's able to use his PKT2.

This isn't entirely the fault of Sheik players, though: the edgeguarding game in SSB4 is still relatively underdeveloped as the focus has been on kill confirms instead. MK is a character that was basically designed to never let his opponents back to the stage, yet his edgeguarding game is basically nonexistent because everyone just relied on the ladder combo instead.

3. She had a disadvantage state before. Saying she didn't just confirms to me that you barely know what you're talking about. If you actually bothered at looking for weaknesses that Sheik has you'd have realized she has trouble landing against characters with good mobility and decent aerials and unlike other top tiers she can't kill off a read anywhere on the stage until pretty high percents, or if you're lucky enough to get an airdodge read to the ground or something at ~90-100% and get a usmash kill. She is also very easy to combo due to a combination of being tall and a fastfaller + having perfect combo weight. Her disadvantage state is just very very bad right now, worse than fox's i'd say.

First of all, how were you getting into disadvantage states with Sheik when you have BF at your disposal? It's one of the best "get out of jail free" cards in this game.

Yes, Sheik gets comboed by some characters to certain percentages, but that should end abruptly any time Sheik can BF away (much like ZSS' flip kick which allows her to escape pressure very easily as well). There are some notable exceptions like characters with kill confirms, but these are the exception and not the rule (and most of those characters are on tiers well below Sheik's).

Second, Sheik now trades the need to get her opponents to very high % in exchange for having a very easy time getting them to those percentages and giving them a generally difficult time in dealing much damage back to her.

This doesn't make Sheik bad, it makes her balanced, and if you're concerned that other characters in the high tiers still have reliable kill confirms, my guess would be that you can expect a number of those to be patched out in the future as well.

The dev team seems to be balancing characters around the idea that kill confirms (especially off of grabs) are meant only for characters who have huge weaknesses to balance them out, which is just as it should be.

Sheik's character archetype is kind of an odd one in that she's designed to simply overwhelm with speed and frame data (neither of which was changed even a little, not counting the hitbox change of Fair). In order to balance her, they went the route of making KOing more difficult because that's the only way they could've done it without removing what it was that made her unique.

And that speed and frame data will probably still make the Sheik matchup almost unbearable for much of the roster, but it will at least be slightly less unbearable now.

 

[ArikadoSD]

She doesn't have consistent kill setups because she has literally everything else except consistent kill setups.



The vast majority of recoveries in this game are either gimpable or interceptable, especially for Sheik.

In high tier of the official tier list alone: Rosa, Ryu, Fox, Mario, Diddy, Cloud, and Ness should NEVER be making it back to the ledge for free against Sheik.

BF + jump + vanish means Sheik can go VERY deep to hit people off the stage.

I've seen good Sheiks drop to the very bottom of the screen to BF Ness before he's able to use his PKT2.

This isn't entirely the fault of Sheik players, though: the edgeguarding game in SSB4 is still relatively underdeveloped as the focus has been on kill confirms instead. MK is a character that was basically designed to never let his opponents back to the stage, yet his edgeguarding game is basically nonexistent because everyone just relied on the ladder combo instead.



First of all, how were you getting into disadvantage states with Sheik when you have BF at your disposal? It's one of the best "get out of jail free" cards in this game.

Yes, Sheik gets comboed by some characters to certain percentages, but that should end abruptly any time Sheik can BF away (much like ZSS' flip kick which allows her to escape pressure very easily as well). There are some notable exceptions like characters with kill confirms, but these are the exception and not the rule (and most of those characters are on tiers well below Sheik's).

Second, Sheik now trades the need to get her opponents to very high % in exchange for having a very easy time getting them to those percentages and giving them a generally difficult time in dealing much damage back to her.

This doesn't make Sheik bad, it makes her balanced, and if you're concerned that other characters in the high tiers still have reliable kill confirms, my guess would be that you can expect a number of those to be patched out in the future as well.

The dev team seems to be balancing characters around the idea that kill confirms (especially off of grabs) are meant only for characters who have huge weaknesses to balance them out, which is just as it should be.

Ryu can recover low and nothing, and i mean nothing, can challenge it hello... what game are u playing. Diddy can mix up his recoveries and it's really hard to really get a good gimp on him when he still has double jump and side b left. Mario up b has really good reach and a damn good hitbox. I agree on the rest however.

Also, bouncing fish is NOT a get out of jail free card. To use it without having end lag you have to use it pretty high up. people can react to that, and notice how I said characters with good mobility can give sheik a bit of trouble landing? Because they can catch up when she uses bf and try to capitalize on her landing. You won't see ganon or robin doing that cuz their mobility sucks ass. It's not a get out of jail free card. ZSS's flip kick is different cuz it wont have end lag if she doesn't activate the hitbox or step on someone, and even if she did, she can ledge cancel it. Also, a Sheik at 60% and an opponent at 100% might as well be even due to rage and how light sheik is. Percentage difference doesn't matter that much at all against Sheik now. Trades are EXTREMELY bad.

Not killing is also a huge weakness. I don't think you guys quite understand how big of a weakness it is, with the rage mechanic especially. Sheik's current state in sm4sh is just bad design. when you look at it then look at cloud, bayo, rosa, lucario, wii fit.. this game is filled with badly-designed characters and it really leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

 

[S_B]

Ryu can recover low and nothing, and i mean nothing, can challenge it hello... what game are u playing.

...A game where I've F/Baired Ryus who thought they were safe in going so low. If I can make it back with Bowser, I KNOW Sheik can.

Diddy can mix up his recoveries and it's really hard to really get a good gimp on him when he still has double jump and side b left.

Yeah, if he's recovering high, Diddy will be relatively safe, though if he monkey flips onto the stage, Sheik should just be grabbing him and tossing him back off again.

Mario up b has really good reach and a damn good hitbox.

True, but the point is not to challenge the up+B as it's happening but to intercept Mario before he's close enough to the stage to use the up+B. You'll force him to burn his jump this way at the very least, and if he's already burned it, it's not hard to push him far enough from the stage that up+B will fall short.

Again, if Bowser can do this, so can Sheik.

Also, bouncing fish is NOT a get out of jail free card. To use it without having end lag you have to use it pretty high up.

...or off the stage where you'll experience no lag, and given that Sheik can BF in either direction regardless of which direction she's facing, you'd be looking at a combination of some AMAZING reaction time and a very quick character to catch her in time to punish if she does land on stage or a platform.

It's not a get out of jail free card. ZSS's flip kick is different cuz it wont have end lag if she doesn't activate the hitbox or step on someone, and even if she did, she can ledge cancel it.

If you hold the direction you're moving as you're BFing, Sheik will travel a little over halfway across FD, and it's actually better to do this while Shiek is LOWER to the ground as it will incur the same landing lag either way so you want to start it sooner. It's still going to successfully evade 90% of the cast, and the remaining 10% are likely only going to punish it if they read it and weren't still trying to hit Sheik when she BFed away.

Also, a Sheik at 60% and an opponent at 100% might as well be even due to rage and how light sheik is. Percentage difference doesn't matter that much at all against Sheik now. Trades are EXTREMELY bad.

Sheik is still just as agile and evasive as she ever was. Most of the cast has an extremely hard time hitting/grabbing her, and the members of the cast who are fast enough to match some of her frame data are being nerfed as well.

Not killing is also a huge weakness. I don't think you guys quite understand how big of a weakness it is, with the rage mechanic especially.

It definitely is, and as odd as it sounds, it wasn't uncommon to see pre-nerf Sheiks living to 150%, even against characters like Bowser or DK because they just could NOT land kill confirms on her.

Sheik's current state in sm4sh is just bad design.

Like I said (well, edited into the last post), her character is designed strangely in that she's meant to overwhelm with frame data and speed, but have a hard time killing.

With the latest change, they shifted her design to have more risk involved in that, yes, she would incur more rage in her opponents, but if you can continue to evade damage, most characters will still REALLY struggle against you.

when you look at it then look at cloud, bayo, rosa, lucario, wii fit.. this game is filled with badly-designed characters and it really leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

I think the real problem is that SSB4 was shipped as if it were intended to be a party game, then half way through the following year, someone on the dev team decided to balance it for competitive play.

Then, they started adding hoo-haas to garbage characters and whatnot.

I think Sheik can still work, but the edgeguarding game is the real key to making her harder matchups better now. It was underdeveloped before because she had the confirms, just like how MK's edgeguarding game is so terrible compared to what it should be...

Again, most of the Sm4sh community is guilty of this, though, so there's no blame on Sheik players in particular.

 

[TurboLink]

...A game where I've F/Baired Ryus who thought they were safe in going so low. If I can make it back with Bowser, I KNOW Sheik can.



Yeah, if he's recovering high, Diddy will be relatively safe, though if he monkey flips onto the stage, Sheik should just be grabbing him and tossing him back off again.



True, but the point is not to challenge the up+B as it's happening but to intercept Mario before he's close enough to the stage to use the up+B. You'll force him to burn his jump this way at the very least, and if he's already burned it, it's not hard to push him far enough from the stage that up+B will fall short.

Again, if Bowser can do this, so can Sheik.



...or off the stage where you'll experience no lag, and given that Sheik can BF in either direction regardless of which direction she's facing, you'd be looking at a combination of some AMAZING reaction time and a very quick character to catch her in time to punish if she does land on stage or a platform.



If you hold the direction you're moving as you're BFing, Sheik will travel a little over halfway across FD, and it's actually better to do this while Shiek is LOWER to the ground as it will incur the same landing lag either way so you want to start it sooner. It's still going to successfully evade 90% of the cast, and the remaining 10% are likely only going to punish it if they read it and weren't still trying to hit Sheik when she BFed away.



Sheik is still just as agile and evasive as she ever was. Most of the cast has an extremely hard time hitting/grabbing her, and the members of the cast who are fast enough to match some of her frame data are being nerfed as well.



It definitely is, and as odd as it sounds, it wasn't uncommon to see pre-nerf Sheiks living to 150%, even against characters like Bowser or DK because they just could NOT land kill confirms on her.



Like I said (well, edited into the last post), her character is designed strangely in that she's meant to overwhelm with frame data and speed, but have a hard time killing.

With the latest change, they shifted her design to have more risk involved in that, yes, she would incur more rage in her opponents, but if you can continue to evade damage, most characters will still REALLY struggle against you.



I think the real problem is that SSB4 was shipped as if it were intended to be a party game, then half way through the following year, someone on the dev team decided to balance it for competitive play.

Then, they started adding hoo-haas to garbage characters and whatnot.

I think Sheik can still work, but the edgeguarding game is the real key to making her harder matchups better now. It was underdeveloped before because she had the confirms, just like how MK's edgeguarding game is so terrible compared to what it should be...

Again, most of the Sm4sh community is guilty of this, though, so there's no blame on Sheik players in particular.

Sheik's edge-guarding was never underdeveloped.

 

[ArikadoSD]

BFing off stage and resetting to the ledge only continues the disadvantage state, though. If you do that against a character that can capitalize on that (such as bowser or rosa) you're giving them a huge advantage.

 

[S_B]

Sheik's edge-guarding was never underdeveloped.

Eh, it depends quite heavily on the Sheik player in question.

Yes, I've seen plenty of Sheiks BF people near the edge of the screen a great deal, but that's typically only done when in kill %.

I rarely see Sheiks trying to push opponents away from the ledge when recovering low, even when doing so could possibly mean a kill.

Again, this isn't the fault of Sheik players. Edgeguarding in Sm4sh is criminally-underdeveloped across the board. I think the fact that we can't keep people from grabbing the ledge by grabbing it ourselves led most players to simply not focus anywhere near as much time on labbing how to intercept various recoveries. We're not very good about getting the 2-frame punishes, either.

I expect it'll get better developed as the meta matures, though, since it's one of the key places we're lacking right now.

BFing off stage and resetting to the ledge only continues the disadvantage state, though. If you do that against a character that can capitalize on that (such as bowser or rosa) you're giving them a huge advantage.

Yeah, Rosa will eat you for lunch if you're on the ledge, though you could possibly BF off and jump directly back on stage before she can press that advantage. Bowser shouldn't be that hard to get back on stage against. Just dropping ledge will probably bait out an option and you can punish accordingly (Bowser has to be super twitchy when fighting Sheik to stand any kind of chance).

 

[CaP_Omega]

1. Just saying "you can still kill and u have amazing frame data lmao" doesn't mean anything. No, she can't kill anymore, because her kill setups are a lot more situational than grab setups, cuz she relies on getting the tipper dtilt hitbox, getting a point blank ftilt, or a random bouncing fish/uair or if you're really lucky a weak nair, although that's extremely punishable cuz nair's hitbox is actually pretty small. sure she can rack up damage quickly I agree with you, but that does't give her any sort of extreme advantage over anyone else. If she had consistent kill setups, then yes, i'd say she does.

2. No I mean every single recovery except maybe mac and cloud. Magnet hands + a lot of recoveries either having hitboxes or being not easy to react to make them pretty darn amazing in this game. a very handful few recoveries are actually legit bad like doc falcon or rob.

3. She had a disadvantage state before. Saying she didn't just confirms to me that you barely know what you're talking about. If you actually bothered at looking for weaknesses that Sheik has you'd have realized she has trouble landing against characters with good mobility and decent aerials and unlike other top tiers she can't kill off a read anywhere on the stage until pretty high percents, or if you're lucky enough to get an airdodge read to the ground or something at ~90-100% and get a usmash kill. She is also very easy to combo due to a combination of being tall and a fastfaller + having perfect combo weight. Her disadvantage state is just very very bad right now, worse than fox's i'd say.




1. Fox can do that lol. Utilt > uair combos until really high percents and kills way earlier than anything Sheik had, and Fox's utilt has much more utility than sheik's ftilt. Meta knight, Diddy, Ryu, and probably many more characters I'm missing. Sheik could killl off a tilt or a safe aerial? holy **** no other character has that! BROKEN! NERF! (in reality many characters have that rofl.)

2. I feel like you're throwing the words "it's what everyone else does" without actually thinking much behind it. No it's not what the rest of the cast does. Rosalina looks for luma dairs/uairs or very non-laggy smash attacks to kill, Cloud has limit and amazing disjointed aerials that kill, Bayo has 0-deaths... Diddy has dtilt > everything or uthrow > uair, or banana > anything... Fox has utilt > uair or soft nair/dair > usmash and just uair juggles in general which he can throw way more than Sheik can, Ness has bthrow, Luigi has bthrow and hard-to-punish smashes.... bowser and DK have 2 hit throw kill confirms, Lucina has a few kill confirms off nair and side b, or jab, mac has jab/dtilt > ko punch, dtilt > up b, or just spamming smashes in general at the ledge...

I just went down the tier list and they all have kill confirms where they don't have to read an airdodge/double jump/landing or whatever to kill... so yeah, you can't just throw "everyone else had it the hard way and you didn't" bs. And yes, she has abysmal shield pressure.

3. Feels to me like you're just Sheik-shaming the Sheik mains here with that statement lmao. It's also funny cuz gren has a less laggy projectile with more reach now than Sheik. And yes, needles had lag, believe it or not you can run up shield and punish it. Needles aren't an insta-win button in the neutral, you can't just press b. it's mostly used for covering options and that's it. Sometimes it's good in the neutral sure but only when it starts popping them up.

1. Ignoring the fact that Bouncing fish links from F-air and tilts very consistently, ignoring the entire concept of reads.

2. Ignoring the fact that Sheik is one of the only two privileged with absolute invincibility while recovering - she can't get spiked or gimped no matter what.

3. Ignoring the fact that Sheik had and still has the best frame data so punishing other aerials is a matter of rapidly putting pressure on the opponent and predicting their approach.



1. Fox's u-tilt does not auto link into u-air at kill percents, can be totally avoided by SDI or simply jumping - impossible in Sheik's case. None of those characters kill off of all of their tilts, and none of their tilts are as good as Sheik's. At least one or two of her tilts didn't get nerfed.

2. Luma is a mere chore to get rid of, and if Luma is gone, Rosa in't too hard to deal with. Limit is kind of a chore to get, and has to be used with precision in high level play in order to make a kill (his aerials are really good, but you have to predict sheilds in order not to get punished. Spacing them generally requires precision as a consequence). Bayo is straight up ridiculous, but bait an attack and start tailing her at low percents and she gets desperate. Diddy's d-tilt is manageable to stay away from, Diddy's u-throw -> u-air hasn't been a kill confirm for the past 7 months or something, and I guess banana is a little jank, but it can also be used against him. None of those Fox combos are true kill confirms, and his u-airs aren't all that hard to avoid, especially for fast fallers. Ness's B-throw is pretty dumb, b. Luigi can't hit you if he can't catch you, and he's pretty slow - space him out. DK needs that thing and Bowswer's doesn't kill anymore. Maybe if you get up close, which is never a good idea with Lucina. Get rid of his KO punch, out zone him (it's easy when you're fast and you have a projectile), and don't bring him to FD or Omega.

3. And it sounds to me like you're discounting the weaknesses of other characters and strawmanning your own.

Ryu can recover low and nothing, and i mean nothing, can challenge it hello... what game are u playing. Diddy can mix up his recoveries and it's really hard to really get a good gimp on him when he still has double jump and side b left. Mario up b has really good reach and a damn good hitbox. I agree on the rest however.

Also, bouncing fish is NOT a get out of jail free card. To use it without having end lag you have to use it pretty high up. people can react to that, and notice how I said characters with good mobility can give sheik a bit of trouble landing? Because they can catch up when she uses bf and try to capitalize on her landing. You won't see ganon or robin doing that cuz their mobility sucks ***. It's not a get out of jail free card. ZSS's flip kick is different cuz it wont have end lag if she doesn't activate the hitbox or step on someone, and even if she did, she can ledge cancel it. Also, a Sheik at 60% and an opponent at 100% might as well be even due to rage and how light sheik is. Percentage difference doesn't matter that much at all against Sheik now. Trades are EXTREMELY bad.

Not killing is also a huge weakness. I don't think you guys quite understand how big of a weakness it is, with the rage mechanic especially. Sheik's current state in sm4sh is just bad design. when you look at it then look at cloud, bayo, rosa, lucario, wii fit.. this game is filled with badly-designed characters and it really leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

Firstly: Force Ryu to recover low and rely on a 0 or ~15 up-special with a tiny hitbox and stage spike him - done. Get Diddy in the air, get rid of his double jump, get him offstage, force him to use Rocket Barrels, gimp him - done. Get Mario offstage, gimp him out of his double jump, go offstage and punish his cape/gimp him if he's far enough away from the stage - done. Easy. Ramen noodles.

Secondly: Yeah, BF has lag - worse characters have equally susceptible kill options. But if a Sheik is in a good situation against another player and they know how to keep it that way (which is more than likely going to happen because she does have the best offensive pressure in the game), they will use it sparingly in neutral and they will use it properly on the offensive ("All you have to do to get a strong kill otherwise is get a decent read with U-air, Bouncing Fish, or one of her Smash attacks -which is almost exactly like what a huge majority of the rest of the cast is forced to do almost all of the time").

Thirdly: Let me get this straight: people have been trying for the past year and a half to figure out tech and strats for every character in order to find out how to even properly approach Sheik, but it is failing because players are finding out quicker how to counter those options with Sheik while the simple fact that she has superior frame data remains. Players are forced to dedicate themselves to a guess in order to even touch Sheik because that is the only way they have to fight the fear of getting hit with, and they are occasionally forced to put a little percent on Sheik at the cost of a stock. And you don't think we. . . "quite understand how big of a weakness it is"?

 

[Splebel]

I don't see what the big deal is. If Sheik drops to high tier, that's still good. The way everyone complains it's like Sheik has a terrible matchup against everyone and their mom now.

 

[WondrousMoose]

Why is this thread still open? Nothing of any use is being said; instead, we have a Bowser and Greninja player telling Sheik players with tournament experience that they're wrong and just repeating themselves at every opportunity. I don't like calling out individuals, but the thread is a mess, and I'll do my best to let it die. To all involved here: just stop.

 

[CaP_Omega]

Why is this thread still open? Nothing of any use is being said; instead, we have a Bowser and Greninja player telling Sheik players with tournament experience that they're wrong and just repeating themselves at every opportunity. I don't like calling out individuals, but the thread is a mess, and I'll do my best to let it die. To all involved here: just stop.

My whole point for this post was to give a base for how ridiculous this whole situation about people saying Sheik is leagues worse than what she was pre-1.1.5 and that everyone who wants to play the character they want should just do it because they love the playstyle and not the gimmicks that give them an ultimately easier game. I originally posted this thread in the General Discussion forums to avoid controversy, but I guess it was moved because I did make the main subject Sheik. Maybe you're not looking for an explanation yourself, but the more you know But you're right - screw it. I should have thought that nobody could speak for the metta unless they have a high rank at this point.

 

[Planty]

My whole point for this post was to give a base for how ridiculous this whole situation about people saying Sheik is leagues worse than what she was pre-1.1.5

She IS leagues worse than pre-patch. Still top tier though. I don't think any good Sheiks are denying that. I think that's what you're missing here.

everyone who wants to play the character they want should just do it because they love the playstyle and not the gimmicks that give them an ultimately easier game.

What if they just enjoy winning? Stop judging people based on their character choice.

 

[ArikadoSD]

1. Ignoring the fact that Bouncing fish links from F-air and tilts very consistently, ignoring the entire concept of reads.

1. Fox's u-tilt does not auto link into u-air at kill percents, can be totally avoided by SDI or simply jumping - impossible in Sheik's case. None of those characters kill off of all of their tilts, and none of their tilts are as good as Sheik's. At least one or two of her tilts didn't get nerfed.

strawmanning rn cuz i cant reply to such a long post

1. i'm not ignoring them but they don't connect at kill percents.. so idk what ur point is

2. yes it does. I face enough good foxes (and play him a decent bit) to know utilt > uair is a kill confirm at higher percentages, sometimes a 50/50.

 

[CaP_Omega]

strawmanning rn cuz i cant reply to such a long post

1. i'm not ignoring them but they don't connect at kill percents.. so idk what ur point is

2. yes it does. I face enough good foxes (and play him a decent bit) to know utilt > uair is a kill confirm at higher percentages, sometimes a 50/50.

1. It links into bouncing fish.

2. I just tested it on a Falcon at 80%, 90% and 100% - Falcon could act out of it before I could reach his position.

She IS leagues worse than pre-patch. Still top tier though. I don't think any good Sheiks are denying that. I think that's what you're missing here.

What if they just enjoy winning? Stop judging people based on their character choice.

According to Void's twitter posts, it seems like he thinks Sheik is just fine - and to quote him, he's been "waiting for this".

And if the only thing they care about is winning, too bad for them. The can grow up or they can pick another character if they don't think Sheik is the best in the game anymore, though. Besides, Greninja getting nerfed to oblivion is a joke among a group of people - including certain Sheik users - so I don't get how those same people can turn around, hang their head and moan when Sheik gets a little taste of what it's like.

 

[Absol]

1. It links into bouncing fish.

2. I just tested it on a Falcon at 80%, 90% and 100% - Falcon could act out of it before I could reach his position.



According to Void's twitter posts, it seems like he thinks Sheik is just fine - and to quote him, he's been "waiting for this".

And if the only thing they care about is winning, too bad for them. The can grow up or they can pick another character if they don't think Sheik is the best in the game anymore, though. Besides, Greninja getting nerfed to oblivion is a joke among a group of people - including certain Sheik users - so I don't get how those same people can turn around, hang their head and moan when Sheik gets a little taste of what it's like.

Can you like, go? This thread was pointless from the start. A brand new thread isn't your social media hub to express your opinion. I rather have your point flooded by more posts in the social thread so I don't have to log in and notice this is the first thing I see.

I don't care about a what a gredninja main thinks about nerfed sheik. Especially when you are not even close to the circle of sheik players that busted their ass evolving her meta. You got an opinion? Cool. I don't care. And I can choose to ignore it so I can stop myself from saying something I'll regret. I reserve that right. Congratz you got the feedback you never wanted because deep down I feel as if you know what you were getting into. Why don't you use your fingers to charge clouds limit and platform camp instead of being a keyboard warrior. While we firgure out our character without your input.

K thanks.

 

[S_B]

Just watched VoID playing and Dtilt to Uair seems to be guaranteed for Sheik still. Got plenty of kills from it, but his matches with the Luigi player were very close.

Yeah, I'd say it'll work out pretty well: Sheik won't be quite as overpowering, but she can definitely still hold her own.

 

[Absol]

Just watched VoID playing and Dtilt to Uair seems to be guaranteed for Sheik still. Got plenty of kills from it, but his matches with the Luigi player were very close.

Yeah, I'd say it'll work out pretty well: Sheik won't be quite as overpowering, but she can definitely still hold her own.

Could we please just put this in the social thread so this no longer gets bumped. Or hell, hopefully it gets locked anyway.

 

[CaP_Omega]

Could we please just put this in the social thread so this no longer gets bumped. Or hell, hopefully it gets locked anyway.

Yeah thanks, sorry it sucks that I was trying to help! Please, develop Sheik! I want to see that nay-sayers are proven wrong.

 

[_Tree]

I left this up since we don't get too many of these threads around here, but I see there was a reason for that.

This has gone in the direction I generally thought it would. Keep this kind of discussion to the social from now on please.