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*A proposal for a change in the counterpicking process*

adumbrodeus

Smash Legend
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Aug 21, 2007
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So DK mains automatically lose the second match every time they win?
Or play... somebody other then DK for the second match...

That's sort of the epitome of counter-picking, being forced to play different characters due to match-ups.

i remember it was flawed in melee too
Marth still lightly countered fox, Sheik still countered Marth, and Fox still countered Sheik.

And don't forget about Falco, beats sheik, goes even with marth, and either wins or loses against fox depending on the stage.

Both Captain Falcon, Peach, jigglypuff, and ICs are viable for counter-picking in there.


It's not perfect, but it's definately functional at the top.
 

BentoBox

Smash Master
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Or play... somebody other then DK for the second match...

That's sort of the epitome of counter-picking, being forced to play different characters due to match-ups.
He was replying to Supermodel who suggested that the winner of the first round should not be able to switch characters. If a player goes DK on the first round and wins, he automatically loses the second because of DDD.
 

pure_awesome

Smash Lord
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Whether or not Xyro is comfortable with his disadvantageous match-ups as a Samus main has no bearing on whether or not he thinks MK breaks the system itself.


Or play... somebody other then DK for the second match...

That's sort of the epitome of counter-picking, being forced to play different characters due to match-ups.
EDIT: What Bento said.
 

adumbrodeus

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He was replying to Supermodel who suggested that the winner of the first round should not be able to switch characters. If a player goes DK on the first round and wins, he automatically loses the second because of DDD.
Ok, sorry, misread the conversation.
 

BentoBox

Smash Master
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Whether or not Xyro is comfortable with his disadvantageous match-ups as a Samus main has no bearing on whether or not he thinks MK breaks the system itself.
The fact that he breaks the system is NOT the point. Yes, MK does "break" it, but I'm asking if it really does matter at all! Since when is Smash all about CPs? You can CP in every fighting game; as a parallel, SF4's Sagat has no disadvantageous MUs and goes neutral with 4 characters, that would warrant a ban according to this community, yet SRK won't. Why is there a difference in mentality? Why can they accept that a character should reign supreme while we can't?
 
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Yet ironically, you go all Samus in tournaments. You have quite a few disadvantageous match-ups but that doesn't phase you. You do not take advantage of the CP system to cover your bad MUs. So really, how important is said system, to you? You do realize that even if MK is banned, the odds of you winning will still remain heavily stacked against you?

Also, L!te is mad sexy
Maybe he's aware of that and thinks beyond his own situation?
 

pure_awesome

Smash Lord
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First of all, if that was the point you were trying to make by pointing out that Samus would still have trouble in an MK-less environment and Xyro goes all Samus in tourneys, you need to be way more clear about your chain of logic.

Second of all, SRK banned HDR Akuma, and he has no disadvanageous matchups and goes even with 3 characters. So I guess we aren't so different after all.

And yes, it matters. Though I'm sure you have various reasons for thinking it doesn't.
 

BentoBox

Smash Master
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First of all, if that was the point you were trying to make by pointing out that Samus would still have trouble in an MK-less environment and Xyro goes all Samus in tourneys, you need to be way more clear about your chain of logic.
The very first question I asked him was "How important is the CP system to you?". How can I be more clear? YOU jumped the gun after misinterpreting my post.

Second of all, SRK banned HDR Akuma, and he has no disadvanageous matchups and goes even with 3 characters. So I guess we aren't so different after all.

And yes, it matters. Though I'm sure you have various reasons for thinking it doesn't.
But they did not ban Old Sagat.

As for HDR Akuma, a direct quote from Sirlin:

Just to clarify what Spicy was saying, it's not Akuma doing air fireballs over and over at you in a trap that is so super unfair. I did test that with all 17 characters to see what they could do. The super unfair broken thing is blocked air fireball into raging demon that is inescapable...apparently 75% of the time, people say from testing. That's a straight up bug. When you jump into a raging demon, you can always jump out. If you are in hitstun and raging demon is pushing up against you, you can always jump out. But if you are in *blockstun* and it's pushing up against you, you can only get out about 25% of the time. Major bug there, as that one thing alone gives him tons of free damage that was never intended.
Please don't reference games you don't even play nor know much about.
 

Xyro77

Unity Ruleset Committee Member
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Yet ironically, you go all Samus in tournaments. You have quite a few disadvantageous match-ups but that doesn't phase you. You do not take advantage of the CP system to cover your bad MUs. So really, how important is said system, to you? You do realize that even if MK is banned, the odds of you winning will still remain heavily stacked against you?

Also, L!te is mad sexy
i dont care about european samus's. they have aot of catching up to do.

my bad match-ups are not based on the CP system.
In fact the system is quite good. every character in the game is countered by level and character.

metaknight is not. the basis of changing the CP system is because of meta not being banned. if he was banne dno one would have a problem with the CP system because it DOES work.

Whether or not Xyro is comfortable with his disadvantageous match-ups as a Samus main has no bearing on whether or not he thinks MK breaks the system itself.



EDIT: What Bento said.
exactly.
 

Eddie G

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In fact the system is quite good. every character in the game is countered by level and character.

metaknight is not. the basis of changing the CP system is because of meta not being banned. if he was banned no one would have a problem with the CP system because it DOES work.
Most definitely this.
 

BentoBox

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my bad match-ups are not based on the CP system.
In fact the system is quite good. every character in the game is countered by level and character.

metaknight is not. the basis of changing the CP system is because of meta not being banned. if he was banne dno one would have a problem with the CP system because it DOES work.
And changing the CP system is much less drastic than banning a character. If changing the CP system turns out to be a viable solution, all is good? You ban as a last resort. And that still doesn't answer my question: Why is it important for every character to have a counter? Since when is smash centered around counters?
 

AlphaZealot

Former Smashboards Owner
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The Smash community has always been about being OKAY with some advantages, but for reason not being OKAY with very huge ones. IE there is some idea/semblance that the loser should be allowed to take an advantage, but that that advantage can never be to great.
 

BentoBox

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That sounds more like a belief than a fact.

You're in the SBR, you tell me if that is enough to warrant a ban by SBR's standards =p

In the end, it's nothing but an appeal to feelings.

GL

edit: Someone needs to make a thread about the importance of the counterpicking system in smash for the pro-ban's sole anchor to hold any weight.
 

XienZo

Smash Lord
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Apr 12, 2008
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Why do we even give players an advantage if they're losing? Isn't that what Sakurai does, except over the course of the set instead of within a single match?
 

hova

Smash Champion
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i only read the opening post, but those propositions are stupid

the loser gets to choose a stage they like as well and the benefit of determining the match up.

if the winner changes characters because of the stage pick and the loser is not good against that character then that is pretty much the losers fault for not be more diverse

if the players are equal then the current counterpick system offers an adequate advantage. if the winner of the first match is significantly better then the counterpick really doesn't mean much

if there was a new counterpick system which heavily favored the loser of the previous match then whoever won the first match would most likely win the set

first match is on even terms, player X wins
second match heavily favors player Y, player Y wins
third match heavily favors player X, player X wins the set

changing the rules would help the loser of the initial match win the second match, but would ultimately make it much harder to win the set overall

as i said this proposal is stupid(i'm sure flawed would be a nicer term)
 

Eddie G

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i only read the opening post, but those propositions are stupid

the loser gets to choose a stage they like as well and the benefit of determining the match up.

if the winner changes characters because of the stage pick and the loser is not good against that character then that is pretty much the losers fault for not be more diverse

if the players are equal then the current counterpick system offers an adequate advantage. if the winner of the first match is significantly better then the counterpick really doesn't mean much

if there was a new counterpick system which heavily favored the loser of the previous match then whoever won the first match would most likely win the set

first match is on even terms, player X wins
second match heavily favors player Y, player Y wins
third match heavily favors player X, player X wins the set

changing the rules would help the loser of the initial match win the second match, but would ultimately make it much harder to win the set overall

as i said this proposal is stupid(i'm sure flawed would be a nicer term)
Yes...flawed is definitely a nicer term. It was a momentary brainstorm that I decided to share.
 

StrikerX22

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 23, 2009
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23
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AZ, USA
I just want to point out a few things...

Banning is not a last resort. If overpowered items and forcing the players to play every stage in the game to determine a set made the characters all equal, you would still not do that. There are always things to tweak, like the damage ratio discussion, but no one thinks that will catch on, because it changes studied gameplay so much. Banning wouldn't do that, except to those whose lives consist of playing MK or playing against him, which is entirely sad.

Also, comparing communities is entirely flawed. What one entity does over another is no way to prove what is right. It's very obvious if one character does lord over all characters but a few even matchups, that hurts the beauty and variety of the game as it is. If you want to make MK vs MK/Snake etc it's own tourny structure, then that's fine. Having specialized tournaments is fun. But normal, official tournaments should be very concerned with clear imbalance.

When it comes down to it, if you're really only concerned with skill, you would limit everything to one character and duke it out, but that's no fun. This isn't the best argument, but there's always a variety of things in a sport-like environment... well those that don't are pretty dull and not televised sans golf and the Olympics. Interesting sports involve a variety of factors to adapt to.

So do you love the game, or the show of skill alone? There are other things you can show that in. But to me, having more variety forces more adaptation, thus more skill and fun both.


As for being more on topic: The current system is better than the suggested. Yes, coin tosses are bad. Most everyone would cry foul when they lose the toss and the game. And yes, the advantage shouldn't be too big. Providing that the winner doesn't get to strike another stage, it should be fine. And yes, the winner should be able to repick their character, preferably after the stage is chosen, possibly both players blindly. I don't think blind is necessary though since the loser can choose whether to mirror match or counter, even if the winner picks the best character for the stage. The loser has to keep that in mind when picking a stage.

I'd think the reason for CP is that it assumes there may be imbalances in the first matchup + stage, though "neutral," and allows the loser to claim they can do better with a more fair stage. (This means the 2nd match is obviously going for imba, tho can be deflected by char choice.) Along this line of thought I would never involve stages not "neutral" unless the char's were chosen first, which narrows down the maps that may be chosen to prevent a very biased matchup.

So here's my suggestion for a change, if any:

[1st match and prep for 2nd]
-Stages struck. Play on stage randomly picked or agreed on.
-X Wins, Y Loses.
-X picks character, Y picks character (in assumed claim that the matchup was somehow biased.)
-Maps are whittled down officially by stats for that matchup and/or the exploits that might break balance (or just disallow them if easy enough, like N64 Corneria's big lasers).
-Player Y chooses a stage more based on preference than balance, to get him back in his game (mental aspect).

[2nd match and prep for 3rd]
-X wins? okay, wasn't a big disadvantage. Y wins? then move on below.
-Repeating the above process (but X/Y switched) does not automatically favor X really, but allows him to not have that perceived imbalance. So do the same as above.
 

Ranor469

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 5, 2009
Messages
82
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Long Island
It seems to work when it goes like this: (random is set to neutral stages only)

-X and Y announce 1 CP stage to ban
-strike neutral stages til only 1 is left
-X wins, Y loses
-Y gets 2 options, CP a stage or random
-if Y CPs, then X picks char and then Y picks char
-if Y randoms, then Y picks char and X cant change

-If X wins---> set
-IF Y wins then X gets to either CP or random (read above)
 

rofljont

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
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113
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Culver City
this isnt good enough, and could almost give the loser a free win because of bad stage ex ike on rainbow cruise.

the loser has a good enough advantage you could use a counter pick for alot more than u think.

ex i am playing snake against a ddd, the ddd wins first game and bans brinstar i choose battlefield.
he switches to G&W cus battle field is not a good enough stage for ddd. using counter picks as a way to make them change their character so that way you can counter pick character and have the advantage.

this works on all characters except meta knight i think, in metaknights case i see the only way as counter picking a stage u know better than the opponent.
 
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