A Proposal Regarding Marth's Honor--The Ness/Lucas 'Chaingrab'

[Proverbs]

Marth is by far one of the most deadly opponents for Lucas and Ness concerning the infinite 'chaingrab' and now many Lucas and Ness mainers have already switched mains due to this.

My proposal is this, for those of you who have any claim to honor or integrity, that we do not abuse this infinite chaingrab until either those maining Lucas and Ness discover a solution to the problem or become efficient at escaping it. In the case that it does not happen, I would suggest this technique never be used, although using it to get in a free smash attack would still be permissible. My reasoning is this: It's part of the characters that they can get hit because of the release stun, however, to abuse this as a 'chaingrab' is ridiculous, as it can get them to 300% from zero--some claim this makes Lucas and Ness unusable.

My hope is that this technique, if no solution arises, will be banned in tournaments and that it will become common practice for this to be outlawed for casual (non-tournament) playing among friends. However, the former has been suggested to be increasingly doubtful. And it is with this in mind that I come to you with this proposal. If this technique cannot be officially banned my hope is that it becomes an unspoken (or rather unwritten) rule, that will not be used period. If you decline this proposal, you are destroying the mains of Lucas and Ness players everywhere.

Now for those of you who are just going to say that you do not care or will not change your ways because it is 'not your problem', you here lose your honor and reputation in so far as I am concerned as a Marth player at all. I urge any that agree with me to do the same, using this technique is one of the few that can correctly be called cheap. I hope that those who have no honor nor integrity will be, in a way, excommunicated and strongly frowned upon for the use of this technique as a means of nigh destroying two extremely unique characters.

Now I realize this proposal may seem a tad ridiculous to some, and you may claim my sympathy comes from the fact that, yes, my second and third characters are Ness and Lucas, respectively (although slightly tentative about Lucas). As I've recently started to use these characters, it would be no far stretch for me to make other choices of mains. Although were there no attempt made to cease the use of this technique until an appropriate time that may never come, this would in no way influence my decision of using the two characters. Make no mistake, my sympathy would remain were I in a different situation. And if you doubt this, I ask you this: Does how my sympathy was aroused detract in any way from the truth of what I say? Or the integrity of this proposal? Or the practicality? No, not in any way. I came to a realization and how I came to it is of little importance if this realization still has bearing, which it does.

What I call you to is integrity, honor, and fairness--uprightness and righteousness, if you will. If you at all consider yourself a man or woman of these qualities listed here, you would do best to agree. For if you do not, it is my strongly held belief that you are void of these qualities entirely.

I understand that in posting this I am risking my own standing and perhaps provoking the ill favor of many on this board, however that is not my concern. I have no regard for the opinion of those who will not consider what I have said with sober judgement and compassion. However, if what I have said is flawed in any way or you see a lack of logic or wisdom in my proposal, I in turn urge you to show me my error. However, if you cannot in any way without admitting you lack sympathy, then you continue to remain without honor.

All who would claim to have this integrity of which I speak, sign your names (screen names or initials will do) below and you may comment if you wish.


--R.D.M.--



EDIT--PLEASE READ TO PREVENT YOURSELF FROM POSTING ANGRY COMMENTS UNNECESSARILY:
"Because I started this because I believed the Ness and Lucas mainers needed someone in their defense being that their mains were about to be ruined for all eternity. Now that there are only two characters (Marth and PT) that can grab Ness infinitely and only Marth for Lucas, these guys can still fare absolutely well in tournaments while being a little wary of Marths and PTs. So: Because it's not hurting them and they now can survive, they don't need anyone to protect them.

Essentially, because this isn't destroying people's mains, hopes, and dreams--I have a lot less qualms about the issue. And being that even Ness can escape from even Marth, this technique can be used and isn't ridiculously cheap. It's no longer a ridiculous threat that knocks them into their own tier."
^My response to why I've backed off of the issue.

Thank you.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

*cries*

10weepingNesses

 

[HRP]

I personally wouldn't see much fun in abusing an exploit to win tournament matches, but maybe that's just me.

Unfortunately, I think there are plenty of people out there who will have no problem abusing this infinite chain grab, especially if it means getting closer to winning a Brawl tournament.

 

[1170]

I wasn't planning on relying on the infinite to kill Ness or Lucas anyway. I would rather develop my game as a Marth than repeatedly tap z (that would be a little boring). I can certainly see your point of view, but Marth isn't the only one who can do the infinite. My not using it has little to do with my code of honor (pretty much useless because I don't really go to tournaments), merely pragmatism. Lucas can escape, so not learning to counter Lucas would severly hurt my chances of beating a Lucas that could escape well and consistently. I also think (maybe) that Ness can jump out of the grab in certain situations, so I would rather beat him normally than using a possibly unreliable technique (I know, I know, it's hard to do, but the possibility still remains).

I will admit that I hope Nintendo fixes this. Somehow. Having 6% of a game rendered unusable is not cool, no matter which way it's framed.

 

[Ztarfish]

Even though there may be the odd person who will abuse the exploit, the fact that it gives Ness tournament goers a chance that the other person will have a sense of integrity when he picks a Marth, DK, etc. is a hell of a lot better than the hopeless situation they seem to be stuck in at the moment.

Besides, who knows, the negative stigma surrounding this may affect people's decisions to use it. Societal taboos are often stronger than written rules, anyway.

 

[Proverbs]

I realize that Marth is not the only one who can do this. However, were I to suggest this to other character boards first, they would regard me as in no place to make that proposal. Here, however, I am a fellow Marth player, a swordsman. And being a swordsman has a code of honor. For some it is chivalry, for others, bushido. It is that sort of honor that I appeal to. Hopefully this spreads to other boards as well, but I can only make this proposal after having accepted it myself.

 

[BacklashMarth]

I can relate to hating cheap strategies that make the game no fun (yes, brawl is supposed to be fun). When i played a tournament i lost to a team that used peach and ness (final destination+pk fire+peach down smash = cheapest match ever), and while I don't mind being beaten, I hate the way we lost to that cheap tactic.
That being said, keep in mind that I agree with you somewhat before I post this. There are 2 problems here, 1) if the marths stop using the technique then a counter probably won't be found, and 2) the rule would be hard to regulate and get others to comply to in tournaments. I'm playing devil's advocate but I'm sure you see my point. I however won't use this infinate chain grab since it isn't flashy and it doesn't have the pwnage factor that a spike, gimp, or tipper has. I was thinking that a good projectile spam/camping technique would work to counter this but I'm almost certain that this isn't the case. I use lucas as one of my alternates and it saddens me to know that he will be rendered obsolete against marth in a tournament. *thinking* Wait a minute. I think the best way around the chaingrab is to use another character against marth, someone campy, with spammable projectiles, and iono maybe wings (*cough* Pit*cough, cough*). When you go to a tournament you should have a backup in case you have to face someone that counters your character. In any event, i think the chaingrab should be banned too. I have a code also (2 actually). My "nindo" or "way of the ninja" and a combination of bushido and chivalry called "buchivalry".

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

I definitely expect this to become banned, unless a counter for it appears soon. But with the bureaucracy of things who knows how long it will take.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Neither one can escape it. For Ness you can just stand in place and grab and for Lucas you can run up and dash grab.

I personally never use this in friendlies, because that is a time for practicing. However, if I do fight a Ness or Lucas player in a tournament I would use this, in the same way that an Ice climbers player would chaingrab Shiek in melee. I'm not to decide what's "fair" or "cheap" as anything that the tournament allows is a viable strategy. Sucks for Ness and Lucas players, but it's not like Marth is the only character that can do this. Just look in the Ness and Lucas threads and you'll find out that 3/4 of the roster can do some form of chaingrab or get a free attack on them.

 

[GBcrazy]

I agree. I hope this to become banned

 

[Lord Aether]

Personally, I'd go for your plea up till a certain extent - when I'm having trouble, I go right for the grab. Until then? I just have fun like I normally do.

 

[AOB]

Two problems:

1. Some people want to win when they're at tournaments, and who can blame them for using everything at their disposal?

2. "Honor" is really just a pretentious way of saying "being nice."

 

[Torn]

I completely understand your viewpoint and it's not unreasonable at all to make it known that this kind of thing is abusable, but in a tournament setting, I am absolutely going to use release grabbing to make sure I win against either Earthbounder.

In that kind of scenario, you have to consider the viewpoint of both players - the Ness/Lucas user is going to be aware of this tactic and either adjust accordingly or be prepared to lose and the opponent has an enormous incentive (it's not hard to imagine three-stocking a Lucas every round you ever play) to use this tactic and win the match.

That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if tournaments of any level would ban this technique due to its potential to be used as an infinite stalling tactic. When I first heard about this thing, I tried it out on a level 9 and expected it to leave a bad taste in my mouth, but it was actually pretty satisfying throughout and afterwards.

Yeah, something is definitely wrong with the way Lucas' and Ness' grab-lag turned out, but I say it's wisest to go ahead and inform everyone you can of this technique and see if the competitive-minded Lucas/Ness will adjust his main. If he refuses (it's perfectly understandable to not want to shift mains especially for such an unfair reason) he had better be prepared (not just against me, other people WILL use it too) for a long, boring, frustrating, and high-percentage match.

Torn

 

[Ztarfish]

I personally never use this in friendlies, because that is a time for practicing. However, if I do fight a Ness or Lucas player in a tournament I would use this, in the same way that an Ice climbers player would chaingrab Shiek in melee. I'm not to decide what's "fair" or "cheap" as anything that the tournament allows is a viable strategy. Sucks for Ness and Lucas players, but it's not like Marth is the only character that can do this. Just look in the Ness and Lucas threads and you'll find out that 3/4 of the roster can do some form of chaingrab or get a free attack on them.

Well I think that's the point. Sheik is not 3/4 of the roster. Ice Climbers are not 3/4 of the roster. Dedede is 1/35th of the roster. Aside from that, their chaingrabs are much more intensive to master. The fact that Ness and Lucas are disadvantaged against pretty much everyone basically makes them garbage tier, and I think this topic was made to prevent such a tier from being made.

 

[Proverbs]

At the end you pretty much said, "Who cares? It's not my problem." That is the sort of lack of honor I'm talking about. And like I have already said, I realize that Marth is not the only one who can do this, but he is one of the biggest threats that has this. Not only this, but I main Marth and thus he is the only character I can agree to this proposal with. Furthermore, the difference between the Ice Climbers chaingrabbing Sheik and Melee and this technique is that the Ice Climbers can single out one opponent and Sheik has one bad matchup. This is about the opposite--Ness and Lucas have almost ALL bad matchups, making them nigh unusable. That's when fairness and justice comes into play.

You say that you're not the one to decide what's fair or cheap--this I disagree with entirely. In my entire proposal I had already made my decision. We both are human beings and have consciences that sway us one way or another, that is the decision. I understand that this isn't the biggest problem facing the world but is a problem that destroys two mains almost entirely. That, is the deciding factor.

My appeal is for those who still have consciences, I'm sure you have one.


Edit: Ztarfish, nicely put, much better than me.

 

[Proverbs]

Two problems:

1. Some people want to win when they're at tournaments, and who can blame them for using everything at their disposal?

2. "Honor" is really just a pretentious way of saying "being nice."

#1 is just a way of saying that you don't care what you have to do to win. That's a mercenary's way and not the way of a warrior. This I disagree with to my very core. Winning is nothing when you realize that you did not win: a cheap and disreputable technique did.

#2 shows your lack of sympathy. Honor is not "being nice." There are some things that are downright mean that involve a man's honor. Fighting until death to defend a cause is honorable, but Mr. Rogers would hardly support such a cause. Do you understand what I mean?

 

[Torn]

My appeal is for those who still have consciences, I'm sure you have one.

Oh, please, don't simplify this enormously complex and variably-resulting matter into a simple question of right or wrong.

Quite simply, the only remaining Nesses and Lucases have already been informed of this tactic and are taking their chances by maining their Earthbounder.

In the interim, they will suffer greatly for it. One half of this problem (the consequence) is really quite simple: a Ness or Lucas main will never, ever, ever win a tournament ever. When you get up there in the finals of a double elimination tournament against a Lucas or a Ness, you aren't going to fiddle around with moral issues when there is a free win sitting right there in front of you.

Like a number of people have mentioned, this tactic will likely become banned from competitive play because of the sheer obsolescence that it affords Ness and Lucas. Yes, IC could infinitely stall Sheik. Sheik's one bad matchup made it so that no one ever used her in the Melee competitive scene ever, right?

Unfortunately, unless something is done quickly about this, it DOES mean that no one will ever use Ness or Lucas in a competitive setting again.

It's not a moral issue - it's a technical issue. Ban it or not but don't look down upon those that use it. It's the game's fault, really.

Torn

 

[Proverbs]

To a previous question: No, I cannot imagine using this technique to three stock Lucas or Ness. I wouldn't want to. It's stupid, put simply. I have the same competitive nature that wants to win, but I refuse to do something that shakes hands with cheating to get there. If I win it will be by skill. In the same way, if Ness in turn develops a technique against everyone that is instant death, I will not use it either. Spamming one button is not how a game should be played.

Edit:

Torn, here you and I part ways, right at the core of this thread. If I am in finals I will most certainly not use some ridiculous tactic to win. What's the point of winning if I don't earn it? Honestly, it's similar to pornography: the pleasure without the actual woman. Or employing a prostitute: the pleasure of the woman without her heart. Those two I also look down on with extreme disgust. By using this technique you settle for a mirage of what is real. The victory without the conquering--this is stupid. I know my examples may be a bit out there, but it's the same principle. You're taking what's fake over what's real.

The problem is you, Torn, care enough about winning that you'd do anything for it. That, as I mentioned earlier, is where we part ways. For I do not believe winning is worth it if I do not overcome an actual challenge.

You assume that I will submit to an easy win merely because it's there. No. Not if it means I didn't earn it.

That is why this IS a moral issue.

 

[jeawdan]

how do you do this infinite chaingrab with marth? I would like to use it on my brother a bit, just to get em angry, but then ill probably stop. Can anyone help me out here?

 

[BacklashMarth]

I'm sorry but I think Torn just made a good point. I don't think that ness or lucas has the edge need to win a tournament regardless of the chaingrab if the opponents are good enough (just an opinon). Marth just fairs well (sorry for the pun ) in general against the earthbounders. This doesn't mean that i change anything i thought in my first post tho. Essentially, its the game's fault (just like Pit's sparrows).

 

[Dark Sonic]

You say that you are appealing to my "code of honor," but that very code of honor states that I will not dishonor my opponents by holding anything back. I will make sure that I do not have the ability to go back and say "well, I could've easily won if I had done..." That is the way of the warrior good sir. To give it his all in every matchup. Do you know what we call it when you don't give it your all?

Sandbagging, the uttermost disrespect to any tournament player. If you lose you just lost to someone who wasn't even trying. If you win, you still didn't beat him at his best. That is something that I will never do in a tournament match, and if I'm looked down upon for that than so be it. Until it is banned I will use it, so that I have no excuses for losing. In fact, I'm sure that if we all used it then it would be quickly banned from tournaments, or the Earthbounders would just become unplayable in tournaments. If there is no official ban, they will never win a tournament as no serious player would ever throw away an opportunity to win the final match. If anyone still wants to main Ness and Lucas, they better be pretty **** good.

BTW, rediculous chaingrabs did not stop Fox and Falco from being to tier, and most of the cast could do that. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

I'm sorry but I think Torn just made a good point. I don't think that ness or lucas has the edge need to win a tournament regardless of the chaingrab if the opponents are good enough (just an opinon). Marth just fairs well (sorry for the pun ) in general against the earthbounders. This doesn't mean that i change anything i thought in my first post tho. Essentially, its the game's fault (just like Pit's sparrows).

Misconception. Lucas and Ness both are very strong competitors have both of them have what it takes to be potential tournament winners.

besides this one horrible flaw, that is.

 

[Proverbs]

You say that you are appealing to my "code of honor," but that very code of honor states that I will not dishonor my opponents by holding anything back. I will make sure that I do not have the ability to go back and say "well, I could've easily won if I had done..." That is the way of the warrior good sir. To give it his all in every matchup. Do you know what we call it when you don't give it your all?

Sandbagging, the uttermost disrespect to any tournament player. If you lose you just lost to someone who wasn't even trying. If you win, you still didn't beat him at his best. That is something that I will never do in a tournament match, and I'm looked down upon for that than so be it. Until it is banned I will use it, so that I have no excuses for losing.

Sonic Wave, this is something I honor from the deepest reaches of my heart. But let me flip the situation around. You, in turn, are not beating him at his best. It's like making him play with one hand just because it's not illegal. See what I mean? By using a technique that does not allow him to do his best, you are denying yourself from real victory as well as him from giving all he can--whether or not he wins.

Do you see my side of it? Even if you don't, your opinion I truly respect deeply. However, for the one who uses the technique for a quick win, that I despise from the core. This is why I wanted people who disagreed to share their arguments against mine.

In conclusion: I respect your point of view, but I ask you to thoroughly consider mine, especially from this post.


Also, see the edit from my last post (not necessarily directed at you, Sonic Wave, but the viewers of the topic as a whole).

 

[Proverbs]

how do you do this infinite chaingrab with marth? I would like to use it on my brother a bit, just to get em angry, but then ill probably stop. Can anyone help me out here?

Sorry, you're seriously posting in the wrong topic XD

 

[Lord Aether]

#1 is just a way of saying that you don't care what you have to do to win. That's a mercenary's way and not the way of a warrior. This I disagree with to my very core. Winning is nothing when you realize that you did not win: a cheap and disreputable technique did.

Welcome to competitive smash.

Honestly, I will reiterate what someone's said and what I was about to say (I didn't want to hear some ***** rant from you, you see); no one cares. The concept of playing to win escapes you completely, and if you can't understand this you have no place in competitive smash or any sort of competitive battling out there.

Yes, I will play normally without the grab since I'm a Marth player. No, I will not stray away from using it; I'll use it when I really have to since I enjoy having fun too. If I'm losing, I don't think twice about honor, I do whatever it takes.

Besides, I find it hard to grab Ness and Lucas anyway because many of them constantly spam PK Fire and Marth's running grab kinda sucks~ It's your choice for playing as Ness/Lucas, and playing as them runs the risk of getting into one of these grab infinites. It's a choice you're willing to take, and you can either find a new main or find a way to work past it; personally? I would go with the former, but seeing you around I think you'd choose the latter.

Or just not play at all. Your choice.

 

[BacklashMarth]

To a previous question: No, I cannot imagine using this technique to three stock Lucas or Ness. I wouldn't want to. It's stupid, put simply. I have the same competitive nature that wants to win, but I refuse to do something that shakes hands with cheating to get there. If I win it will be by skill. In the same way, if Ness in turn develops a technique against everyone that is instant death, I will not use it either. Spamming one button is not how a game should be played.

Edit:

Torn, here you and I part ways, right at the core of this thread. If I am in finals I will most certainly not use some ridiculous tactic to win. What's the point of winning if I don't earn it? Honestly, it's similar to pornography: the pleasure without the actual woman. Or employing a prostitute: the pleasure of the woman without her heart. Those two I also look down on with extreme disgust. By using this technique you settle for a mirage of what is real. The victory without the conquering--this is stupid. I know my examples may be a bit out there, but it's the same principle. You're taking what's fake over what's real.

The problem is you, Torn, care enough about winning that you'd do anything for it. That, as I mentioned earlier, is where we part ways. For I do not believe winning is worth it if I do not overcome an actual challenge.

You assume that I will submit to an easy win merely because it's there. No. Not if it means I didn't earn it.

That is why this IS a moral issue.

Dang. That is a good point. I think I am sticking with your side on this issue. Illusion without substance is just an illusion. Rationalizing the use of a cheap technique is just making rational lies.

You say that you are appealing to my "code of honor," but that very code of honor states that I will not dishonor my opponents by holding anything back. I will make sure that I do not have the ability to go back and say "well, I could've easily won if I had done..." That is the way of the warrior good sir. To give it his all in every matchup. Do you know what we call it when you don't give it your all?

Sandbagging, the uttermost disrespect to any tournament player. If you lose you just lost to someone who wasn't even trying. If you win, you still didn't beat him at his best. That is something that I will never do in a tournament match, and I'm looked down upon for that than so be it. Until it is banned I will use it, so that I have no excuses for losing. In fact, I'm sure that if we all used it then it would be quickly banned from tournaments, or the Earthbounders would just become unplayable in tournaments. If there is no official ban, they will never win a tournament as no serious player would ever throw away an opportunity to win the final match. If anyone still wants to main Ness and Lucas, they better be pretty **** good.

BTW, rediculous chaingrabs did not stop Fox and Falco from being to tier, and most of the cast could do that. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

I think that there were ways out of the chaingrabs that were easier than the ness/lucas strangle grab. I do sympathise with your "not giving it your all" thing but i think that if you don't use the strangle grab (i.e. not putting it in your "all") then you still can give your all, lose, and still not feel bad about it. Heck, you may be fortunate enough to win without it. I personally don't need it to win.

 

[1170]

Can't they both just 'jump out' of the grab? Or did I invent that, too?

And yes, I'm pretty sure that Lucas, at least, has the edge to win a tournament.

 

[Proverbs]

No. Competition is about conquering, achieving victory. The losers who cannot do this on their own are the ones who are not only void of sympathy, but also lack what it really takes to win.

So far I can only respect Sonic Wave's opinion in why he should continue to use this technique. I cannot respect those who are merely apathetic.

^In response to Lord Aether. Thanks also to Backlash Marth who thoroughly considered my opinion, while continuing to respect Sonic Wave's. This is how argument should be conducted, and it's a breath of fresh air to see someone employing it.

 

[orintemple]

OP needs to read Sirlin.

Play to win, that's all. I am gonna CG the crap out of Ness and Lucas if it is between me and 500 dollars.

Competitive gaming is not for the weak.

 

[BacklashMarth]

Misconception. Lucas and Ness both are very strong competitors have both of them have what it takes to be potential tournament winners.

besides this one horrible flaw, that is.

Sorry, i need to clarify. I meant that the match is probably not in ness or lucas's favor when he faces marth. Marth is a little quicker and can handle their projectiles pretty well if the play knows what they are doing. I'm sure that without the strangle grab that they could potentially win a tournament (i think lucas has a better shot tho) It's all a matter of player skill.

 

[Lord Aether]

No. Competition is about conquering, achieving victory. The losers who cannot do this on their own are the ones who are not only void of sympathy, but also lack what it really takes to win.

We are doing it on our own. We picked our character, you picked yours; mine has an advantage over yours, and I'm stressing that advantage. It's like me asking this board to go easy on my Ike in a tournament because Ike's at a disadvantage due to his lack of speed.

"What it really takes to win" is being void of this sympathy. "What it really takes to win" is using everything in your arsenal; not holding back because of some stupid honor system.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/ for reference.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Don't get grabbed. <3

If Ness players are forced to space F-Airs better than they ever did before, so be it.

If Lucas players are forced to space PK Fire better than they ever did before, so be it.

I played Bowser in Melee, and I've beaten Sheiks. I've also lost to Sheiks; if it was such a big deal, I'd switch to another character. It's in the game; work around it instead of trying to ban it.

Marth's incredible grab game was taken out in this game anyway, so it's not as much of an issue anymore.

 

[Torn]

Proverbs, let us consider for a moment Ness. Ness is a completely viable character, no worse than two-thirds of the cast with everything it takes to win every conceivable tournament in the right hands.

Unfortunately, that two-thirds of the cast may use (abuse) a programming oversight in the form of Ness's grab-lag that lets them infinitely grab and beat up the poor boy from Onett.

Overnight, Ness (and Lucas to a lesser extent, I think) has become utterly unusable, destined to become the bottom of the bottom tier. Think for a moment, my lad, if you had made the choice to main Ness instead of Marth.

You're entering your name into a tournament. You ask yourself who you will attempt to pilot to a Top 8 finish. You briefly consider Ness or Lucas and dismiss them readily - the risk that you run when you pick Ness is so great that the mere thought of someone using this tactic would scare you away from using him.

You see, my friend it matters not at all if we as a community decide not to use it. Ness and Lucas mainers are not scared of release grabbing, no, they are afraid of a much more imperceptible threat - the chance that someone might resort to release-grabbing during a pivotal match.

Therefore, Proverbs, this issue becomes, as I said, not a moral issue of right or wrong but a technical issue of this or that. If either Ness or Lucas is destined to see competitive play, it will be because tournaments have definitively declared that they will disqualify those who infinitely release-grab, not because some vague subcommunity of Marth users on a well-known Smash forum have sworn together not to use said tactic.

Simply put, you never know if your opponent will release-grab your Lucas. If he does, you've lost. If he doesn't, you've just successfully used Lucas, congratulations.

It matters not. Lucas and Ness will never be used because this might happen (unless it's banned)

You're not getting on an airplane that has a 70% chance of being hijacked. It doesn't matter if it will be hijacked or not - you're just not getting on that plane because it might happen. You don't want to take the risk - you'll take a boat instead because the risk of dying is so threatening that planes have effectively been rendered unusable.

That's my (and other peoples') logic.

Also, yes, I care about winning. That's why I win. I care about it and I'm willing to take advantage of the game's engine to win as often as I can and as completely as I can. I'm not going to run the risk of losing and then complain about how I "could've" won by abstaining from a well-known tactic in tournaments to have some code of "honor" or be a "gentleman."

As a side note, I greatly appreciate your professional and graceful attitude even in the face of opposition. I debate competitively and it's frustrating to no end to have someone be unreasonable and unwilling to listen to counterpoints simply because they refute their point. Thanks for making this an open and frank discussion without resorting to dismissing the negation's points.

Torn

 

[Proverbs]

OP needs to read Sirlin.

Play to win, that's all. I am gonna CG the crap out of Ness and Lucas if it is between me and 500 dollars.

Competitive gaming is not for the weak.

You sir are weak. That is almost all I have to say on the issue. If five hundred bucks buys out your conscience and code of honor, then you are void of being a man on any level. That's not an insult, that's a challenge. Those void of morals have no clue what competition is. You'd break your opponent's hand if it was between you and some large sum of money. As long as you got your money and didn't get in trouble. That's what I hate about your philosophy. I do not hate you, as I understand and empathize with the part of our human selves that desire to win so strongly that we would do anything--especially for men. But this desire I do not give in to.

The difference between you and I is that I do not let my desires master myself. Go find out what this means "I beat my body and make it my slave" (1 Corinthians 9:27 NIV).

 

[Lord Aether]

I have concluded that you need to go out more.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I do see your side of it. And it's even more the reason that I will use it. Because morally there is no right solution. If I use it, I'm not letting him play at his best. If I don't, I'm holding back. Thus my solution should not be bound by moral standards (as there is no right answer) and should instead be a tactical decision. Tactically, not letting him play would be the most strategic solution. It's "winning with a sheathed sword" That is why I said earlier that it is not I who should decide what's fair and what's not, as I have displayed how different perspectives can produce two very controversial answers. "Morality" and "Honor" are subjective terms, and while people may agree on many things, there are also an infinite amount of disagreements in what is "right." You cannot appeal to my humanity, as seeing both sides of the arguement is exactly what made me make my descision. It is because neither answer is acceptable by the other side, because neither side is right, that I choose the side with the tactical advantage. If I believe something is completely broken, I avoid it in friendlies because It will simply not help me practice, and I abuse it in tournaments until it gets banned. That is how the tournament system works for the most part.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Sorry, i need to clarify. I meant that the match is probably not in ness or lucas's favor when he faces marth. Marth is a little quicker and can handle their projectiles pretty well if the play knows what they are doing. I'm sure that without the strangle grab that they could potentially win a tournament (i think lucas has a better shot tho) It's all a matter of player skill.

While it's true that Marth isn't a favorable match up for Ness or Lucas, it's not like they don't have tricks to deal with him. Lucas at least has disjointed hitboxes and PK Fire to give it his best.

But this chain grab just ruins all hope of a good match between Marth and the PK boys.

 

[BacklashMarth]

I think the problem will work itself out eventually. Until then both sides have options.

Earthbounders:
find a secondary, or a way around the chain grab, or an infinite on marths
*sorry i can't offer more advice

Marth's:
let your conscience (or lack of) be your guide, it gets down to mind over matter (don't mind, it doesn't matter), abusing the tactic might get it banned in tournaments so things may work out

As for me:
I plan not to use it. I'll settle for the flashy, stylish, or totally PWNED!!! kill over a spam kill anyday.

 

[Lord Aether]

My consciousness tells me to do the grab against Lucas/Ness?

 

[Proverbs]

I have concluded that many of you are without hearts. Warriors have hearts, they do not harden them at all. No, their hearts are the most soft. They are spurred toward courage and great deeds and exploits because they let themselves be moved. No man is cutthroat. He is a boy at best.

If I need to 'go out more' by your opinion, then perhaps I have merely been uncorrupted. I understand full well what the world is like. I am completely in tune with reality. The problem is, I completely disagree with that reality and refuse to accept it. No, I fight against it. And you, my good sir, need to understand that my disagreement with reality is not in any way an illusion. What I hold to is truer to my heart than your apathy will ever be. It is at the core of my and your being. You cannot deny it lest you deny your own nature.

And, to completely refute Torn, I am considering only using Ness in tournaments until this technique is banned as a testament against it. I care not how many times I lose. Torn you have a shallow view of morality. For you it may only be killing or not and there's no more than that. However, I do not choose pieces of my conscience but accept the whole.

And TheReflexWonder, not getting grabbed is nigh impossible. If you chose to main a worse character in Melee, that's fine. My secondary was Ness in Melee and I bragged about him being bottom tier. Ness had style and potential in Melee and I believed that and held to it. If it comes to it, I will learn to space extremely well, but I honestly think that people should not settle for false victory over the real.

The problem is that those who are arguing about playing to win are not playing to win at all. Because using this technique is not winning in any way shape or form. Using it to smash is game mechanics but using it to get 300% damage from zero on Ness is stupid. I probably will use it to smash occasionally, people used f-throw to f-smash in Melee a ton. That's something Ness and Lucas players will have to get used to. But that is a technique. Spamming buttons isn't.

Those who claim that they 'play to win' do not at all. They play for the prize but not for victory or conquer. They are not testing themselves and proving themselves in any way. They just want their cash and the sooner they get it, the better. That is in itself disgusting.

I still hold that the only opinion of someone against my proposal so far that I've respected is Sonic Wave's. But now I must get some sleep as it's later here and I have school in the morning. But I will continue this argument later.

In the meanwhile, let your hearts be softened.