A SoNiC GuIdE -5/07/09 - Some interesting frame data

[The Milk Monster]

I just picked up Sonic now, so I'm probably decades behind everyone else, but I made your winning steak picture for the video thread, so cut me some slack.

Besides Fake Outs, mindgames, and Dash Cancelled Grabs, what other important uses does the Over B serve?

And for the homing attack thing, just try to consciously not do it very close to the ground, and if you need to recover, spin shot is the way to go.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I just picked up Sonic now, so I'm probably decades behind everyone else, but I made your winning steak picture for the video thread, so cut me some slack.

Besides Fake Outs, mindgames, and Dash Cancelled Grabs, what other important uses does the Over B serve?

And for the homing attack thing, just try to consciously not do it very close to the ground, and if you need to recover, spin shot is the way to go.

No. Spinshot is definitly not the way to go. You lose your second jump and first half you can't airdodge. Don't spinshot into the ****. If you spinshot recover more than two times, your opponent will know this and do anything to you.

Side-B is also useful when you are not close enough to be hit, but not like far away. Charge it, wait for a reaction. If you wait too long you can't cancel it, just VSDJ. If you have something to punish, release it and hit with Side-B and go into U-air. It's a nice punisher.

Welcome to Sonic board, hoping to see you around more. Don't vanish into thin air please :O

 

[Kinzer]

We can cut you some Steak if that helps.

Err, anyway Tenki put it into some very good words about how using what you mentioned in the spin-attacks can be used as a defensive option.

Look at it like this:

Although it is somewhat impractical, Sonic does roll backwards while he's charginghis SpinDash. As long as you hit the shield button before the SpinDash is fully charged, you could've gained some distance to move away from an attack, perhaps as an attempt to have completely avoided it, or for positioning.

As an offensive tactic:

Take something like attacking opponents from above. If you want you could do a VSDJ which gives you a full jump that goes a little bit higher than normal, and a hitbox to go with it! Not only would you be able to more easily defend yourself against any counterattacks with this, but you can follow up from the VSDJ into most any any aerials you felt like using.

As G2 sort of put it, it may also be used in placing yourself. Spinshot can make you fly through the air at Sonic's top-ground speed and from there you would be able to punish from there, in which case perhaps had you tried a certain grounded approach to punish a character, it might not have worked.

The ideas are limitless.

 

[The Milk Monster]

For defensive options, though I could just Shield Cancel my dash, I usually SDC into a back roll or something, just for some fun and it's some trickery.

I usually just spin shot personally, but like you G2 said you don't want to do it too much, predictability is something you don't want to do with Sonic, big downfall.

If VSDJ is Vertical Spin Dash Jump, then I do that sometimes as a mind game, then move myself forward for a back air.

I was watching some videos of like Infzy and stuff, and they used the Spin Shot a lot to set themselves up, it was nifty.

But on the off topic of other moves:

When are ideal times to use the over air? I usually use it running off the edge and fast falling.
How sexy are auto cancelled down airs from the spring into stutter stepped over smashes? Oooooh it gives me tingles.

But yeah I'm here to stay, love Sonic.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I don't really know what you mean with over, but I'll assume forward:

F-air I usually just do SH F-air, FF when the move is done for quicker landing, I usually string 2 or 3 together on (semi-)heavy chars. Off the stage (I'm weird) I'd rather use N-air. It knocks them away more horizantal than F-air. (BTW, the weak part of N-air, not strong)
As for lagless D-air to F-smash, I'd only recommend that when your opponent is not trying to punish, in which case he's not near enough for a F-smash. I'd shield/dodge as soon as you land.

 

[Tenki]

lol, retreating lagless D-air > retreating Stutter Step F-smash is almost sexy.

 

[darkNES386]

Well guys, I finally updated this... errr... shortened it. Take a look at the frame data!

I messed with jabs for a while... but then I realized you have to be careful if the hit connects because then you must include the additional frames added to create the "hit" effect.

Jab definitely comes out in 3 and if it connects 1 frame of "hitting" is shown.

If you whiff it you can shield on frame 19, if you hit frame 20 (and there's the magical one frame of hitting).

 

[Kinzer]

What do you mean by shortened it, as in taking out some outdated/incorrect data?

 

[darkNES386]

What do you mean by shortened it, as in taking out some outdated/incorrect data?

As in... I removed all my tournament/AT discussion for now... less is more so I'm going to add little by little what we agree should go there.

I've been messing with the move discussion for a while now so I figured I'd finally put up what I had and that way it's not just me writing everything.

 

[iSpiN]

Ah, this is a very excellent guide. I am hoping to see its completion. Do you by chance know the frames of Dtilt? I know the hitbox comes out on Frame 6, but I am not quite sure how many frames of end lag it has.

*Sorry if this information was provided elsewhere, I did not see it*

 

[Tenki]

Dtilt: Frame 6
ends: frame 27
Crouching while performing a Dtilt will actually cause Sonic to go back into a crouching position unless he does another Dtilt.

This one's concrete, found using debug lol

 

[iSpiN]

This one's concrete, found using debug lol

..how did I overlook that? But thanks Tenki, much appreciated.

 

[aeghrur]

This one's concrete, found using debug lol

It doesn't tell the frames of lag...
It tells when the hitbox is out, and when something ends, either hitbox or move, if we know one, we don't necessarily know the other.
And from DJB's thread, it's 11 frames of lag +/-1 frame.

 

[Tenki]

Guide on Blocking/dealing with quick moves (for mid+ level people)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtuA5we0RZU

So, blocking.

It's important.



I'm sure that higher level players already do this, but it actually wasn't too obvious to me that doing this actually works lol.

So I'm sure you guys have had problems with things like a fast aerial>ground move followup (see: Peach aerial > jab), or things like MK/Marth D-tilt, or even Snake F-tilt shield pressure - where Sonic is too slow/short ranged to correctly punish out of shield at times.

Well, if you shield the first hit, don't try to simply punish OoS - unshield during hitlag, then pshield the followup. It takes a bit of matchup knowledge to know what moves they can follow up with and what kind if timing you can expect.

After pshielding, then you can follow up ;o

I tried it out in this last tourney I went to and it worked pretty well on ROB actually.
Pshielded and got inside his D/F-tilts like cake

however, I succumbed to U-tilt and projectiles, of all things. >_>;

yeah maaan. shield better, player better.

 

[Camalange]

Hmm...interesting. Didn't we nickname this Ally blocking xD

I really need to experiment with this and work it into my gameplay. This could be a life saver for shield pressure. Especially since you're telling me you pulled this off against ROB's dtilt/ftilt.

Unshield during hitlag...hm

 

[Chis]

Hey Nes386, may I use the pics in the OP for some guide?

<-- Will give credit

 

[darkNES386]

Of course you can

 

[Roxas1988]

I agree sonics does have a pretty fast pummel. But the only thing i hate is the lag of his u-smash.

 

[Browny]

So I saw this

http://bbow.freehostia.com/index.html
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=259352

That actually looks like it could have some serious potential. Make smashwiki obsolete, fill it with actual useful, concise information without the need to actually link to various threads unless people want specifics. Id be up for compiling something like that, I'm pretty good with words.