• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

A Thesis on Defensive Brawl

superglucose

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 26, 2008
Messages
127
(this is a summary of the theory behind brawl that I've been able to glean from these forums and personal experience. I'm perfectly willing to admit I'm wrong, and would be glad to be wrong! In fact, please point out things I may have missed, I'm always hungry to learn more)

A thesis on American brawl:

I know next to nothing about Japanese Brawl. I am not Japanese, I do not know many Japanese, and I've never played brawl against a Japanese player. I have heard that they play a more aggressive game than Americans do, and I'm quite curious to see how the two styles fare against each other.

American Brawl is a very defensive game. It's all about not getting hit... if you're hit, even by a jab that deals 1%, you failed. Hard. Every single move is punishable in this game, and late deaths are significantly more common than in Melee, where an early death meant 30%. Now it means 70%. There are very few true combos and overall the name of the game is to punish your opponents mistakes while making very few of your own. Hit them, but never EVER get hit.

So why attack in a game of Brawl? Very simple. While most attacks can be punished (some very easily) there are a few notable attacks that cannot. Try punishing Pit's arrows if he's a long way away from you. Try punishing Snake's grenade spam, or falco's shdl. It isn't going to work if the distances are right. Plus you need to rely on kill moves that are generally easily punished to get the ko, and frankly you need the ko to win the game.

To this extent, American brawl is about the jabs and grabs. Why? Generally speaking jabs come out fast enough and hang around enough (AAA combos, the only jab that can be spot-dodge spammed is Marth, off the top of my head) to punish the crap out of spot dodging. Also you grab people out of their attacks and out of their shields. So jabs, for the most part, eliminate spot dodging as a defense and grabs utterly eliminate shielding as a defense. Since there are really (aside from proper spacing, which we'll get to later) just four main types of defensive maneuver, shield, spot-dodge, roll, and air-dodge (short hopped normally) removing one of them means that you've effectively eliminated 25% of your opponent's defensive options. Now, the Arial game is a different game entirely, but for now I'm just talking about the ground game.

Shielding:

Shielding is very effective against characters with disjointed hit boxes or attacks that linger about a bit. A good example is practically anything Game and Watch can throw at you. The turtle, ****ed thing it is, is one of the greatest attacks Brawl has to offer. It is very difficult to punish as it eats air-dodging, side-stepping, and rolling alive. But when it comes to shielding it's pretty weak. Everyone over on the G&W portion of the Smash Boards will talk your ear off about 'shield pressure' but I've become convinced none of them know what that means.

I play a game called Allegiance, and one of the major tenants of driving bombers in that game is that your shields are only a buffer so your repair ships can get oriented in combat. In Brawl, your shields are only a buffer so you can orient yourself and space out. Shielding is the best option available to you defensively, if you know your opponent isn't going to grab. It doesn't normally get you a free attack afterwards and you can't counter well unless you're perfect shielding (an application of shielding), but I promise that very few attacks will get through your shield, and most attacks that hit your shield will automatically space you.

What is this perfect shielding? Perfect shielding is timing the shield perfectly (duh) so that there's no damage and no knockback on your shield. It's why shielding is amazing. It's why shielding is the most important technique to know. Marth's shield breaker will eat shields alive, give you hit stun, and knock you back. But if you power shield, it does no knockback whatsoever, and deals no damage to your shield. All kinds of useful. Now perfect shielding isn't very applicable in some situations, like the aforementioned Turtle, because it only really works against the first hit. But it's **** funny to watch a fully charged shield breaker bounce off the shield and do nothing!

Shielding doesn't have many punishing options (bah, jump canceled shields, I guess...) because usually you're knocked back and spaced so that neither side will hurt the other. This is one of the awesomesauce perks of shielding. It's also sometimes annoying because again, Brawl is all about punishing. But there is one major punish available to those who are shielding... remember how I said that “jabs and grabs” are important to Brawl? Well, shielding lets your grab. Easily.

Imagine Lucario is coming in for some Dair nonsense. That move is such utter cheese and amazingness that it gives me headaches to think about it. I love using it and I hate playing against it. Fortunately for all of us facing off against lucarios, the idiots usually don't space it right. So they hit my shield and I grab 'em. Seeing as I normally main Falco, it ends up quite painful for them (dthrow to dac, dthrow to sutter step fsmash (works amazingly with prediction)) and not so much for me. So I've turned their attack, which is one of the greatest attacks in the game (and widely considered one of the best, if not the best, down air in the game), into a nice and easy 30-40%. On them.

Shielding is great, but not always applicable. It's a spacing tool, certainly, and has a great punishing option, but overall your opponent can always own a shield with a grab. This is why rolling exists. Rolling gives you some frames during which you can't be hit while you move a certain distance in whichever way you chose to roll. Hold the shield button and tap the joystick one direction or the other, and be amazed, as you have discovered what a great many new players never learn on their own! At least, not for a long time.

Rolling:

When I first played brawl, I was a very inexperienced melee and SSB64 player, but I'd learned how to roll in that time. My friends had owned the game for a week, and had been playing their hearts out. They had unlocked every character through playing enough matches against each other, to give you some indication as to how much they out-experienced me. I showed up with them weilding Metaknight, Wolf, Pikachu, Toon Link, and Marth like knives. These characters went on to be some of the best in the game.

My first time, well, I played a lot of Zelda back in Melee. I loved her magic (I also played Mewtwo, **** the tiers, I just had fun with those two :D Fox was my tourney character, not that I was any good) back in Melee, so I figured I'd try her again. I got used to the controls (we used classic controllers), and won the first game. Then we had an in-dorm-room tourney between the four of us. I played sheik, and remembered the two uber techs from Melee: rolling and air dodging. I was very pleasantly surprised the first time I airdodged... sure wavedashing was gone but I couldn't wavedash anyways. Rolling... rolling gave these guys fits. I didn't lose a game of Brawl for two months, despite not owning the game and their frantic and never-ceasing training to catch up to me. Yes, we were noobs and may very well still be noobs, but my point still holds: rolling is an effective defense.

There are characters that rolling just doesn't work against (lookin' at you, Game and Watch mains), but overall rolling is an amazing defensive option. It eats Link and other tether grab users alive (hahaha... Samus), and rolling into people who are tether grabbers can lead to free down smashes. You can roll away to retreat from a bad position (and retreating is NEVER a bad option) and you can often times roll forward to get into a good position (this is significantly more situational). When my friend and I are playing our Lucario and Falco games at our top levels, we do more roll spam than you'd normally see. Why? Because we're always rolling and walking trying to get into position for a grab. Granted, this anecdote doesn't make rolling powerful, but it's an example of it's application. You roll past a grab, and you're behind them, maybe in range for your own grab. If not, take a step forward and grab.

Rolling's greatest issue is that it's pretty easy to punish. Lucario's Dair owns rolling. Game and Watch's... very existence owns rolling. There is a certain type of attack that hoses rolling, and it's those attacks that tend to hit either an area, have a lingering hitbox, have range, start up lag, or hit both in front and behind the attacker. Whew, that leaves a lot of them, doesn't it? It sounds worse than it is though, because rolling's a good way to get out of jabs from characters not named Metaknight. Most tilts can't deal with rolling either (G&W's dtilt being the main exception, with a few others, like Marth's utilt), and smashes (except clearing moves, but even most of those can be avoided) are exceptionally hosed. Rolling is also almost foolproof when it comes to avoiding arials, especially stall and falls. Rolling's second greatest issue is that it's the hardest of your options to counter attack from. You usually end up just out of range (which is kinda the point), and have to move back into range before attacking, and the time it takes to do that usually clears the lag from whatever attack you were dodging.

Spot Dodging:

Rolling's ******* cousin is spot-dodging. While rolling takes you away from your opponent (or into your opponent, I guess) spot dodging is normally done when your opponent is in your face and trying to hit you. Most animations show the character leaning back and wagging their torso in their opponents face, an almost taunt that kind of says, “HAHA! MISSED ME!” Then you pop back up, and usually punch 'em in the face (if you're snake, that is). Spot-dodging is the answer to grabs. The answer. You try to grab me? Well I spot-dodge, and then grab right back! In the last tourney I went to, there was about a ten second moment with nothing but two players foiling each other's grab attempts with spot dodges. In the finals match. Spot-dodging has the same weaknesses as rolling, +1. Jab combos, which don't really match up well with most rolling, utterly own spot-dodging. My friend claims he can perfect spot-dodge Snake's jab combo, and surprise surprise, he hasn't done it yet. I main Falco, and my other friend is a notorious spot-dodge spammer. AAA(hold A) gets him every time because he tries to spot dodge, and then cries as he takes ten, fifteen percent. In exchange for this weakness, spot-dodging has much less lag than rolling does making it easier to punish from. It's good, very good. Use it.

The final of the major defensive maneuvers is air-dodging. Final not because it's the hardest to master (it's not, it's probably the easiest) or because it's the best (I think it might be the weakest defensive option available to you). Final because it has to be done in the air, which means that you're probably screwing up.

There are a lot of good applications for airdodging. Din's Fire should never, ever connect. Pit's arrows while you're off the stage? Hell, shading isn't quite what it was in Melee but is still a great technique, especially since you can autocancel into a tilt or smash. That being said, airdodging can't handle hitboxes that linger, such as the infamous turtle. You'll dodge the first, maybe second and third attacks but you'll get hit in the end. Admittedly if they're coming at you with a turtle and it's your only option, then airdodge to take less damage. But as good as air dodging is, it won't save you from your own spacing mistakes in the same way rolling away and shielding can. If you outrange your opponent with your arials, or out prioritize, screw airdodging (most of the time). Still, chances are Marth's fair out ranges and out prioritizes you, and in fact Marth's fair is one of the greatest examples of how airdodging can and should be used.

General Defensive Theory:

So there we have it, the four main defensive maneuvers. Now, when to use them? Well we've all screwed up our spacing before. Even Ken screwed up his spacing in Melee on occasion, it happens. You may find yourself in the following situation: somehow Game and Watch is right next to you. Who cares how you got there? It happens to the best smashers from time to time. Well, what do you think GW is going to do? One of his smashes is pretty sure to come out. If it's the usmash you can pretty easily roll away, but any other smash stands a good chance to eat your roll alive. As an example, rolling away from this situation as Pit puts you right in the sweetspot of his downsmash. Spot dodging works fine against the upsmash if you're good with timing, but the match will still hit (though it won't be nearly as powerful) and I'm fairly sure the dsmash will hit as well. Shading will leave you hit by the fsmash and the usmash. Shielding will leave you hit by none, and you'll be pushed away. Now you can roll out and be perfectly safe!

Each of your defensive options has its time and its place. The thing about brawl: the game creators don't give us moves with zero application. Some, like Ganondorf's utilt and b (wow, no wonder he's low tier!) have almost no application, but they do usually have some application. The defensive options are no different. If you're playing a character with mediocre grabs (Sheik, for instance) you'll want to roll out of grabs, if you're against someone who's attacks can be easily punished (DK or Ganondorf) you'll want to spot dodge, and if you're against Game and Watch you'll want to shield. Learning the time and place to defend is what separates those who can actually win matches at the competitive level from those who get three stocked. My friend went into a GW ditto and shielded very rarely, mostly using rolls and spot dodges. He got horrifically owned the first match. I told him to shield more, he listened, and in the second match lost by a handful of percent on the final stock (different than the easy two stock that had occurred on the first match). All I did was outline the defensive options every character bar none has. Sure, Pit's got his shield, the Spacies have their reflectors, Mario's got a cape, and a handful of characters have counters, but these four are the moves every character has.

Make sure to learn the range of your character's roll. Make sure you learn the time on their spot dodge (I'm pretty sure they're not the same). Make sure you memorize how long you can take shield damage, and have a good general idea of how much shield you have left as well as how much you can afford to lose, how much each attack will do to the shield, and how long before your shield recharges.

Spacing:

“Wait,” you say, “You're a scrub! How can you say there's only four defensive maneuvers?” No, there's a fifth. It's called 'spacing' and is by far the most reliable of the defensive options available to you. But spacing is an entire thesis unto its own, and is so very different for every matchup. Your shield is constant. It'll take the same amount of damage for each character.

The theory behind spacing is that you're at the place that a) maximizes your damage and b) minimizes your opponent's damage. In Brawl, b is far more important than a. It is always always ALWAYS better to give your opponent 1% and to take 0% than to give your opponent 5% and take 3%. That being said, perfect spacing (by this definition) is the place where you take no damage and your opponent takes damage. Hence, Pit has the easiest spacing game of any character in Brawl: he can essentially always damage you with proper arrow control.

Clearly Pit isn't the best character in the game though, and that's because long distance spacing (camping) is owned by another type of spacing known as approaching. In fact, all movements you make should be a type of spacing. If you aren't specifically choosing how close you are to someone then you're screwing up.

Example: Pit is camping you, and you're playing Marth. Pit has a super advantage at this range because Marth lacks projectiles, and Pit has one of the game's best projectiles. You are losing this spacing game, because Pit has spaced you into a situation where you cannot do damage. So you move forward (shading, shielding, rolling, whatever) to get in tipper range. Now you're perfectly spaced, and pit is not (because you've maximized damage, and Pit can't reach you). Pit will now space in response, probably moving closer (since he's up against a wall in this example) to get inside your tip range. As he moves closer to you, your damage potential lowers and his rises, meaning that your spacing has become worse. Now he's next to you and his quicker speed means he's going to hit you before you hit him. Pit now has great spacing on you because your damage is minimized while his is maximized, but not perfect spacing because you can still deal damage to him. In response to this, you space by increasing the distance between you two, and in all this moving you and pit are desperately trying to get damage and hit stun to space and set up for a kill while at the same time doing all the shielding, rolling, spot dodging, and air dodging necessary to avoid getting hit.

Many people take 'spacing' to mean 'moving.' This is, quite simply, a very flawed mentality, and one that loses games. Every attack you have spaces to some degree or another, with a couple exceptions. Some space so much that you knock your opponent off the ledge and into the side wall, koing them. Others have no spacing at all, of which the best example is Fox's laser. When playing Marth, I use his jab as a spacing tool as it tends to push them into tip range for the next jab, and then out of range so I can approach. With only a few exceptions, moving is the only way to decrease the space between two players. Notable exceptions are some tether grabs and the returning of Link's boomerang, as well as some tricky explosion applications.

Another aspect of spacing that gets lost in the translation is two dimensional spacing. Lots of people work their spacing in terms of left and right, and that's fair because it's impossible to maintain good y-axis spacing (thanks to gravity). But even if just for a moment, you can get out of range of attacks by using all that expanse of the stage that's above the floor. In fact, if there's platforms, y-axis spacing is an amazing tool, and why characters like Marth, Snake, and Metaknight do so well on the stages like Battlefield: they destroy y-axis spacing.

Conclusion

To summarize: Brawl is mostly about dealing significantly more damage than you take. To win a game of brawl your opponent will have to deal damage to you at some point, which means if you can avoid damage for the whole game you will win the game. Avoiding damage is done through application of spot dodging, rolling, air dodging, and shielding, as well as being careful in your spacing. The player with the better spacing will probably win the match.

This is how I interpret the Brawl competitive scene, discuss! Please point out things I may have missed/mistakes I may have made, as I'll be a better player for it.

Also: go read cwjalex's thread, cause that thing is all kinds of awesome.
 

ibrium

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 4, 2008
Messages
47
Interesting, truly. It's really cool that you've noticed a trend, though. I've never really thought about how defensive the game is. I wonder how different other regions are in terms of that, though?

I would say the only thing that you seem to have overlooked is the importance in the scene as far as reading your opponent. That is something I would consider to be defensive (although, on the offensive side, you have to counter by reacting as randomly as possible).
 

Crystanium

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
5,921
Location
California
It eats Link and other tether grab users alive (hahaha... Samus), and rolling into people who are tether grabbers can lead to free down smashes.
Pivot grab.

Pit's arrows while you're off the stage?
Arrow Looping and/or Arrow Blitzing. Pit has other options like starting up his Wings of Icarus and going out to strike his opponent. Regardless of whether he is hit or not doesn't stop him from returning to the stage.

Example: Pit is camping you, and you're playing Marth. Pit has a super advantage at this range because Marth lacks projectiles, and Pit has one of the game's best projectiles. You are losing this spacing game, because Pit has spaced you into a situation where you cannot do damage. So you move forward (shading, shielding, rolling, whatever) to get in tipper range. Now you're perfectly spaced, and pit is not (because you've maximized damage, and Pit can't reach you). Pit will now space in response, probably moving closer (since he's up against a wall in this example) to get inside your tip range. As he moves closer to you, your damage potential lowers and his rises, meaning that your spacing has become worse. Now he's next to you and his quicker speed means he's going to hit you before you hit him. Pit now has great spacing on you because your damage is minimized while his is maximized, but not perfect spacing because you can still deal damage to him. In response to this, you space by increasing the distance between you two, and in all this moving you and pit are desperately trying to get damage and hit stun to space and set up for a kill while at the same time doing all the shielding, rolling, spot dodging, and air dodging necessary to avoid getting hit.
There is Emblem Lord's thread regarding walls and traps and how to properly use them. So, you can present to us an example of Pit versus Marth. (It's funny you bring this up, considering I beat my friend's Marth with Pit last night.) I'm not saying your example is wrong. I'm just saying that there are other ways this could work.
 

superglucose

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 26, 2008
Messages
127
Pivot grab.
I did forget about that when writing it, but the idea was you roll as they start their tether grab. It's more about the lag that the tether grab has than their inability to turn around and grab you.


Arrow Looping and/or Arrow Blitzing. Pit has other options like starting up his Wings of Icarus and going out to strike his opponent. Regardless of whether he is hit or not doesn't stop him from returning to the stage.
I never said that it was pit's only option, I said that airdodging is good for avoiding arrows that pit sends after you. And yes, I thought of Arrow Blitzing when writing it.


There is Emblem Lord's thread regarding walls and traps and how to properly use them. So, you can present to us an example of Pit versus Marth. (It's funny you bring this up, considering I beat my friend's Marth with Pit last night.) I'm not saying your example is wrong. I'm just saying that there are other ways this could work.
Than Marth approaching? Pray tell, what is marth going to do that isn't approach? If your marth doesn't approach an arrow-spamming pit, how are you ever going to win? The point is that you're approaching pit is because pit owns you at long range (feel free to show me how Marth can beat Pit when they're across final D from each other and Marth doesn't move any closer). Whether or not you have good options in the approach is irrelevant to the idea: you're still approaching. You're approaching with attacks to cancel arrows, air dodges, shields, spot dodges, rolls and short hops.

I've read Emblem Lord's thread, and I agree with everything he has to say about the matchup. I also never said that Marth wins that matchup or that Pit wins that matchup, just that Marth is going to try and get into tipper range which is just outside of Pit's melee range, and Pit is either going to back off and use arrows or try to get closer. What part did I get wrong?
 

Crystanium

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
5,921
Location
California
I did forget about that when writing it, but the idea was you roll as they start their tether grab. It's more about the lag that the tether grab has than their inability to turn around and grab you.
I don't know about Link's, but Samus' Grappling Beam retracts quicker if she dashes, so the counter-attack may have a small amount of time to even occur. Even so, there are methods to grabbing Samus' opponent besides just running toward the opponent. One of the things that I don't think you mentioned was walking in the direction of your rolling opponent. Granted, some characters roll faster than others, but there's always that possibility of punishing.

I never said that it was pit's only option, I said that airdodging is good for avoiding arrows that pit sends after you. And yes, I thought of Arrow Blitzing when writing it.
All right.

Than Marth approaching? Pray tell, what is marth going to do that isn't approach? If your marth doesn't approach an arrow-spamming pit, how are you ever going to win? The point is that you're approaching pit is because pit owns you at long range (feel free to show me how Marth can beat Pit when they're across final D from each other and Marth doesn't move any closer). Whether or not you have good options in the approach is irrelevant to the idea: you're still approaching. You're approaching with attacks to cancel arrows, air dodges, shields, spot dodges, rolls and short hops.
My apologies. I read wrong.
 

Kitamerby

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 9, 2007
Messages
5,729
Location
Las Vegas
What ever happened to spacing via attacks, such as using Lucario's upangledFtilt to foil an approach, or using moves to not necessarily do damage, but to force approach, the best example of which is Fox's laser, which has no other purpose?

You're oversimplifying the term "spacing," I believe.
 

superglucose

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 26, 2008
Messages
127
Kitamerby, I will now quote myself :D

superglucose said:
Many people take 'spacing' to mean 'moving.' This is, quite simply, a very flawed mentality, and one that loses games. Every attack you have spaces to some degree or another
So I did cover spacing via attacks, I even mentioned Fox's laser (though I didn't mention that it forces approach). The big example I used was Pit's arrows and Marth's Jab. I also mentioned attacks that bring your enemy closer (Link's boomerang... though technically Ganondorf's Utilt, but we can ignore that ;))

I defined 'spacing' inductively to mean 'positioning,' or roughly, where you are in terms of your opponent.
 

Thinkaman

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
6,535
Location
Madison, WI
NNID
Thinkaman
3DS FC
1504-5749-3616
I'm going to have to disagree as much as possible about rolling being a good option.

Rolling is a long, punishable animation that for many matchups produces too little space to be used safely. In fact, punishing rolls is the most common source of "early" KOs against poor players. Rolling almost always is done is a painfully predictable manner that allows good players a massive advantage, and players that use it as a defensive crutch have their game severely limited.

Rolling overall is bad for one's game. My friends and I have a thing going where every single time someone is hit out of a roll, we simultaneously say: "Don't roll."

Often, the best defense is... walking.
 

powuh_of_PIE

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 30, 2008
Messages
462
Location
Charlotte, North Carolina
I'm going to have to disagree as much as possible about rolling being a good option.

Rolling is a long, punishable animation that for many matchups produces too little space to be used safely. In fact, punishing rolls is the most common source of "early" KOs against poor players. Rolling almost always is done is a painfully predictable manner that allows good players a massive advantage, and players that use it as a defensive crutch have their game severely limited.

Rolling overall is bad for one's game. My friends and I have a thing going where every single time someone is hit out of a roll, we simultaneously say: "Don't roll."

Often, the best defense is... walking.
Just interested... do you or any of your friends play Lucario? His rolling animation is hella short, sometimes shorter than some characters' spotdodging animations so it's much harder to punish when used correctly - that is, sparingly. Predictable rolling is indeed very punishable, but when done on occasion to get distance it is an effective defense.
 

Tamoo

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 30, 2008
Messages
4,499
Location
England, Orpington, S.London
yeah, it was a good read, i looked at ur post count after reading and was like whoa lol.
Not sure bout the japanese community either.
Im half japanese and im a defensive olimar brick.
My friends half japanese and hes a crazy marth wielder
so not sure if their community is different but when i played against ppl in japan, playstyle was pretty similar
(except marth and ROB are incredibly overused by them)
 

Pearl Floatzel

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
152
Great read except for the rolling part.
Rolling is a fixed animation for a fixed duration and a fixed length.
If you can roll as they grab to make them miss, they made a mistake and there were better things you could do besides roll. E.g. short hop. Or spot dodge. And then punish accordingly. Grabbing is often only a good idea if it is guaranteed to get them. Otherwise grabs are some of the most punishable things in the game. But some of the most punishing.
/digression
Rolling results in predictability. Walking is better in almost every situation rolling is good for, and the ones that walking doesn't solve, short hopping or full hopping does.
 

Poltergust

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Messages
4,462
Location
Miami, Florida
NNID
Poltergust
3DS FC
3609-1547-9922
Your shield is constant. It'll take the same amount of damage for each character.
Actually, I'm almost positive that Yoshi's shield lasts longer than everyone else's, but Yoshi shouldn't really shield anyways. His spot-dodge makes up for it most of the time. I do agree that shielding is good, but some characters (like Yoshi) just can't afford to shield because it is so bad for them.
 

superglucose

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 26, 2008
Messages
127
As for rolling,

it needs to be used intelligently. Imagine this situation: you're on the left edge of final D and you're facing against Toon Link. He goes to grab you.

1) You spot dodge, walk forward, and hit him.
2) You roll past him and hit him.

In situation 1, you've pushed him towards the middle of the stage.

In situation 2, you've pushed him off the stage, where his poor recovery becomes an issue.

I'm not saying that you should use rolls to approach and spam the hell out of them, I'm saying rolls have their time and place, like virtually every other move in Brawl.
 

J4pu

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
2,343
Location
Torrance/Irvine, CA, USA
As for rolling,

it needs to be used intelligently. Imagine this situation: you're on the left edge of final D and you're facing against Toon Link. He goes to grab you.

1) You spot dodge, walk forward, and hit him.
2) You roll past him and hit him.

In situation 1, you've pushed him towards the middle of the stage.

In situation 2, you've pushed him off the stage, where his poor recovery becomes an issue.

I'm not saying that you should use rolls to approach and spam the hell out of them, I'm saying rolls have their time and place, like virtually every other move in Brawl.
lol this is funny because this exact action gets newer players punished so often.
Because your opponent knows you do not want to be near the edge they often predict a roll and will charge a smash attack in the oppositte direction just for this occasion. Seen especially often when the person just lost a stock and is coming back with invincibility frames.

And did you just say Toon Link has a poor recovery? lol what?
 

superglucose

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 26, 2008
Messages
127
Because your opponent knows you do not want to be near the edge they often predict a roll and will charge a smash attack in the oppositte direction just for this occasion.
And you assume I can't tell the difference between the start of TL's grab animation and his turning around to charge a smash animation because...?
 

K 2

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 17, 2008
Messages
1,920
Location
Tennessee
Very good read. I learn quite a bit from this article.

About G&W's bair: It does eat sheilds alive. 2 bairs in a row will reduce the sheild to almost nothing. The opponent (depending on the size) will usually get shield poked by G&W's bair if their shield isn't at full strength. It's multihit, so even if they powershield the first hit, they have to ride out the next four hits.
 

Crystanium

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
5,921
Location
California
As for rolling,

it needs to be used intelligently. Imagine this situation: you're on the left edge of final D and you're facing against Toon Link. He goes to grab you.

1) You spot dodge, walk forward, and hit him.
2) You roll past him and hit him.

In situation 1, you've pushed him towards the middle of the stage.

In situation 2, you've pushed him off the stage, where his poor recovery becomes an issue.

I'm not saying that you should use rolls to approach and spam the hell out of them, I'm saying rolls have their time and place, like virtually every other move in Brawl.
There is a third option. Grab your opponent who tried grabbing you, throw in some jabs and then throw him backwards. This puts your opponent in a bad position.
 

DanGR

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Apr 10, 2008
Messages
6,860
It's very good for the most part. There's some minor errors, but nothing that detracts from your major points.
 

Lemon?

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 8, 2008
Messages
169
Location
Portugal
Reading this reminded me that i never use spot dodge : / I really need to start using it (properly) >_>

Also...

superglucose said:
As for rolling,

it needs to be used intelligently. Imagine this situation: you're on the left edge of final D and you're facing against Toon Link. He goes to grab you.

1) You spot dodge, walk forward, and hit him.
2) You roll past him and hit him.

In situation 1, you've pushed him towards the middle of the stage.

In situation 2, you've pushed him off the stage, where his poor recovery becomes an issue.
Whaaaat? Poor recovery? TL has great DI, and upB has great vertical range, and with a bomb in hand you can even use it twice.

Anyway, good read, learned quite a bit. Thanks for taking the time to write this.
 

Alus

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 7, 2008
Messages
2,539
Location
Akorn(Akron) OH
NNID
Starsauce
3DS FC
5327-1023-2754
As for rolling,

it needs to be used intelligently. Imagine this situation: you're on the left edge of final D and you're facing against Toon Link. He goes to grab you.

1) You spot dodge, walk forward, and hit him.
2) You roll past him and hit him.

In situation 1, you've pushed him towards the middle of the stage.

In situation 2, you've pushed him off the stage, where his poor recovery becomes an issue.

I'm not saying that you should use rolls to approach and spam the hell out of them, I'm saying rolls have their time and place, like virtually every other move in Brawl.
I think your confusing toon link with link..........
 

J4pu

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
2,343
Location
Torrance/Irvine, CA, USA
And you assume I can't tell the difference between the start of TL's grab animation and his turning around to charge a smash animation because...?
because i doubt you have the reflexes to react once you see the beginning frames of TL's grab animation, which means you would have to predict what he is doing, which means rolling behind without being completely sure that he was planning on grabbing/attacking/doing anything towards the edge.

Seeing the animation before it gets you is one thing, responding after seeing this so that your character goes through the appropriate frames to get invincibility before the (grab) gets to you is another thing entirely.
 

Greenpoe

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
852
The theory behind spacing is that you're at the place that a) maximizes your damage and b) minimizes your opponent's damage. In Brawl, b is far more important than a. It is always always ALWAYS better to give your opponent 1% and to take 0% than to give your opponent 5% and take 3%.
I'd gladly take give 5% and take 3%. Why? Because I play Lucario. Taking more damage let's you deal more damage. Let's say that happens 20 times, putting your character at 60% and them at 100%. Sounds fine to me. High-risk style ftw? (For those wondering, I do win more than I lose, and I do go to tournaments as well.)
 

XienZo

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 12, 2008
Messages
1,287
Lucario is hax.

His aura breaks conventional fighting theory. T_T
 

Mazaloth

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 27, 2007
Messages
759
All of this is totally true.
Thanks for using your time to make this threa, I believe a sticky is in order.
 

superglucose

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 26, 2008
Messages
127
I'd gladly take give 5% and take 3%. Why? Because I play Lucario. Taking more damage let's you deal more damage. Let's say that happens 20 times, putting your character at 60% and them at 100%. Sounds fine to me. High-risk style ftw? (For those wondering, I do win more than I lose, and I do go to tournaments as well.)
Lucario is hax.

His aura breaks conventional fighting theory. T_T
Yeah, it's not as applicable to lucario, because at low percents Lucario does want to take *some* damage. But once you start getting above 100% it starts to be scary to accept damage.

Also remember that this just means that every time you hit them you're dealing 5% to them and 3% to you. Doesn't say anything about them attacking you. Maybe they're dealing 5% to you and taking 1% in return, so you exchange twenty blows each, they're at 80% and you're at 160%.

Still sound good?
 

Praxis

Smash Hero
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
6,165
Location
Spokane, WA
Yeah, it's not as applicable to lucario, because at low percents Lucario does want to take *some* damage. But once you start getting above 100% it starts to be scary to accept damage.

Also remember that this just means that every time you hit them you're dealing 5% to them and 3% to you. Doesn't say anything about them attacking you. Maybe they're dealing 5% to you and taking 1% in return, so you exchange twenty blows each, they're at 80% and you're at 160%.

Still sound good?
Right, but if you're Lucario...if you deal 3% and get 5%...when you're at 100%, you're going to be dealing 6%, so the trade becomes worthwhile.
 

Monshou_no_Nazo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
421
Location
Oklahoma
I would like to say, it is possible to be defensive and be offensive at the same time. It is what Emblem Lord's "Brick Walls & Traps" topic is about, exactly how to do that.

Also, spacing greatly reduces the effects of rolling. Rolling should only be used sparingly, and when it can guarantee a safe escape. Rolling too often will only make it anticipated, and your opponent will adapt as such. Good spacing also makes it easier to fight spot dodgers, since you are less punishable with good DI and movement in relation to range. Repeating jabs or repeating attacks (like Dancing Blade) will also punish spot dodging. They even punish shielding at times.
 

Tyrael64

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 30, 2007
Messages
357
Location
Californiia, USA
Just interested... do you or any of your friends play Lucario? His rolling animation is hella short, sometimes shorter than some characters' spotdodging animations so it's much harder to punish when used correctly - that is, sparingly. Predictable rolling is indeed very punishable, but when done on occasion to get distance it is an effective defense.
I'm pretty sure it's one of the best in the game in terms of distance and speed.
 

Browny

Smash Hater
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
10,416
Location
Video Games
im quite sure he meant short in terms of the amount of time it takes to complete the roll...
 

TK Wolf

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 1, 2007
Messages
792
Location
Bellevue, WA
Fortunately for all of us facing off against lucarios, the idiots usually don't space it right.
I take offense to that. D:

Right, but if you're Lucario...if you deal 3% and get 5%...when you're at 100%, you're going to be dealing 6%, so the trade becomes worthwhile.
Actually, the original statement was that it's better to deal 1% and take 0%, than to deal 5% and take 3%, not deal 3% and take 5%.

Honestly, I don't quite agree with that. I think there are many other factors, like how much % either character can take before being in killing-range, if one character kills with gimps/suicides, and how often you can catch your opponent in a mistake. If your opponent doesn't make many mistakes, or is hard to punish, I think that it's more valuable to deal high amounts of damage, or you won't get enough opportunities to deal enough damage.
 

Staco

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
2,173
Location
Germany
if you watch the mk fight between m2k and azen at youtube, you will see, m2k plays more deffensive in some situations
and its better
and this is one of the torubles, mk has got
no projectile
 

ThaRoy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 8, 2008
Messages
255
Location
...
Very great thread, however I do feel that you left out the sliding shield...
 

Crizthakidd

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 1, 2007
Messages
2,619
Location
NJ
veryyy informatve for all the newbs trying to improve and even i learned something and its good to remember.

i hate when plp say if olimar camps perfectly, he can own any mk / snake or w.e

but by that definition a perfect camping MK will always always win
 
Top Bottom