General Heinz
Smash Journeyman
Hi all.
So historically I guess I would say I have had problems with fighting jiggs, and a couple years back a crewmate of mine picked her up just to show everyone he could win with her. At first I got wrecked consistently, and was immediately inclined to say she has the advantage in the MU, but over time I started doing much better to the point where I largely considered jiggs far overhyped. My crewmate stopped playing jiggs and went back to falco.
Well recently in the smash community where I go to school, we have gotten a new regular player. He is primarily a brawl player, and apparently very good at it (I know nothing about the MI brawl scene so I have no idea what that means), but since we basically exclusively play melee and PM where I go to school he has been playing those much more. In melee he plays jiggs (for obvious reasons).
All I can say is without a doubt, he plays gayer than any ************ I've ever had to face in my entire time playing this game, which is admittedly not THAT long, but in any case, I don't know how to combat it. At a local tourney last semester we met in grands when he was a bit more inexperienced at melee, but his strategy was the same--get a lead, however small, and camp the ledge AS HARD AS YOU CAN. When I say "camp" I don't mean like hang out there for a little while. I don't mean wait until the opponent gives an opportunity to get back onstage. I mean I will wait on the complete opposite end of Dreamland for the better part of 2 minutes and he will remain invincible the entire time because he's just resetting on the ledge without end. However, being that he either was just a little two inexperienced at melee yet, or maybe didn't even yet himself realize the scope of how powerful such a strategy could be, he 3-0'd me to reset the bracket, but I was able to play his game to a sufficient extent that I came back and 3-0'd him in the second set to take the tourney.
Well this semester already we've faced off three times, and I've lost every single one. Only games I have been able to take have been on yoshi's when I can actually kill him from across the stage, but of course that stage is only an option when we meet in a bo5 set because he can't ban it.
Of course my first reaction is to try and be honest with myself--"No johns," I say. He's found a reliable strategy and there's no reason he should stop using it just because I can't seem to figure it out. But honestly the more and more I play him, the more it's blatantly obvious to me that this is downright gamebreaking. And once I realized that it brought to mind a video I watched some time ago, of Hax vs. M2K GFs at some tourney (some smashacre maybe? link me if you can remember) where m2k goes jiggs one game to do EXACTLY what this jigglypuff I'm talking about is doing, and hax says on camera something to the effect of "yeah we're just doing this for one game just so the stream can see that this actually breaks the game." And no matter how many times you tell me "no johns" you're not going to convince me otherwise.
So I guess what I'm asking you falcon players (mainly hax, if you read this) is this: Is there even a viable way to counter this kind of strat with falcon? To be clear, I'm not saying that this breaks the ENTIRE game. I have finally told the jigglypuff in question that I am going fox against him from now on because I have finally admitted to myself that there are certain matchups in this game, whether character or player matchups or a combination of both, that you couldn't PAY a falcon to play, and this is one of them. The obvious answer seems to be as simple as the fact that falcon has no way to make jigglypuff approach AT ALL, whereas fox has lasers AND shine AND usmash. What more could you ask for?
My other question is this: In whatever might be called the "official" tournament ruleset for melee, what constitutes stalling? Admittedly I don't see hbox using this kind of strategy against falcon, although admittedly you don't see him play against a lot of falcons, and I'm sure after TBH3 hax won't be going falcon against him anymore. But why doesn't he stall harder? Also, I know there is a ledgegrab limit in brawl, but has anything like that ever been enforced in melee? I guess what I'm saying is, my gut reaction is to accept the virtue of "no johns", but my intuition is that there's something ****ing wrong with being able to win like this. It isn't that the guy TOTALLY sucks at melee, but it's similar to something gravy said in his thread about hating losing to sheik--I don't even feel like I lose to this guy when I lose to him. I literally just don't have the 2+ hours it would take to play that kind of game (with falcon), so I just sort of lose to myself. It's infuriating and completely absurd at the same time.
Anyway, sorry for the wall of text, but if anyone has any clear answers or could link that particular hax vs. m2k set I was thinking of, I would appreciate it.
So historically I guess I would say I have had problems with fighting jiggs, and a couple years back a crewmate of mine picked her up just to show everyone he could win with her. At first I got wrecked consistently, and was immediately inclined to say she has the advantage in the MU, but over time I started doing much better to the point where I largely considered jiggs far overhyped. My crewmate stopped playing jiggs and went back to falco.
Well recently in the smash community where I go to school, we have gotten a new regular player. He is primarily a brawl player, and apparently very good at it (I know nothing about the MI brawl scene so I have no idea what that means), but since we basically exclusively play melee and PM where I go to school he has been playing those much more. In melee he plays jiggs (for obvious reasons).
All I can say is without a doubt, he plays gayer than any ************ I've ever had to face in my entire time playing this game, which is admittedly not THAT long, but in any case, I don't know how to combat it. At a local tourney last semester we met in grands when he was a bit more inexperienced at melee, but his strategy was the same--get a lead, however small, and camp the ledge AS HARD AS YOU CAN. When I say "camp" I don't mean like hang out there for a little while. I don't mean wait until the opponent gives an opportunity to get back onstage. I mean I will wait on the complete opposite end of Dreamland for the better part of 2 minutes and he will remain invincible the entire time because he's just resetting on the ledge without end. However, being that he either was just a little two inexperienced at melee yet, or maybe didn't even yet himself realize the scope of how powerful such a strategy could be, he 3-0'd me to reset the bracket, but I was able to play his game to a sufficient extent that I came back and 3-0'd him in the second set to take the tourney.
Well this semester already we've faced off three times, and I've lost every single one. Only games I have been able to take have been on yoshi's when I can actually kill him from across the stage, but of course that stage is only an option when we meet in a bo5 set because he can't ban it.
Of course my first reaction is to try and be honest with myself--"No johns," I say. He's found a reliable strategy and there's no reason he should stop using it just because I can't seem to figure it out. But honestly the more and more I play him, the more it's blatantly obvious to me that this is downright gamebreaking. And once I realized that it brought to mind a video I watched some time ago, of Hax vs. M2K GFs at some tourney (some smashacre maybe? link me if you can remember) where m2k goes jiggs one game to do EXACTLY what this jigglypuff I'm talking about is doing, and hax says on camera something to the effect of "yeah we're just doing this for one game just so the stream can see that this actually breaks the game." And no matter how many times you tell me "no johns" you're not going to convince me otherwise.
So I guess what I'm asking you falcon players (mainly hax, if you read this) is this: Is there even a viable way to counter this kind of strat with falcon? To be clear, I'm not saying that this breaks the ENTIRE game. I have finally told the jigglypuff in question that I am going fox against him from now on because I have finally admitted to myself that there are certain matchups in this game, whether character or player matchups or a combination of both, that you couldn't PAY a falcon to play, and this is one of them. The obvious answer seems to be as simple as the fact that falcon has no way to make jigglypuff approach AT ALL, whereas fox has lasers AND shine AND usmash. What more could you ask for?
My other question is this: In whatever might be called the "official" tournament ruleset for melee, what constitutes stalling? Admittedly I don't see hbox using this kind of strategy against falcon, although admittedly you don't see him play against a lot of falcons, and I'm sure after TBH3 hax won't be going falcon against him anymore. But why doesn't he stall harder? Also, I know there is a ledgegrab limit in brawl, but has anything like that ever been enforced in melee? I guess what I'm saying is, my gut reaction is to accept the virtue of "no johns", but my intuition is that there's something ****ing wrong with being able to win like this. It isn't that the guy TOTALLY sucks at melee, but it's similar to something gravy said in his thread about hating losing to sheik--I don't even feel like I lose to this guy when I lose to him. I literally just don't have the 2+ hours it would take to play that kind of game (with falcon), so I just sort of lose to myself. It's infuriating and completely absurd at the same time.
Anyway, sorry for the wall of text, but if anyone has any clear answers or could link that particular hax vs. m2k set I was thinking of, I would appreciate it.
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