A6M Zero and FenrirVII's Fox Conversation.

[§witch]

Mindgames aren't accounted for in tiers, fox CAN be good. As can any other character.

 

[A6M Zero]

I'm not nearly as concerned about tiers as I am about how people feel about Fox.

A tier list is a character's tier. A character's tier does NOT always represent how good that character is when played at it's top level, and I believe Fox at his top level is significantly more than anyone gives him credit for.

 

[Emblem Lord]

A CG is low risk high reward. When you go for a grab you usually aren't risking that much and when done as a punishment from shield it's far easier to net grabs.

Foxes combos are not nearly as safe or reliable. His basic combo starter is SH Dair. Very little range and priority. It's also unsafe on block. Not a good approach at all really, but Fox doesn't have much to work with. Even on hit it can be smash DIed out of and follow-up attempts can be shielded or rolled away from.

That's...pretty horrible anyway you look at it.

U-tilt combos only work at low percents and you can Smash DI to make them end sooner. U-tilt will really only hit after a Dair and we just went over why that move isn't anything to write home about.

So his combos are high risk high reward and only at lower percents. At higher percents he loses his comboability pretty much altogether.

The fact of the matter is this. Fox isn't doing very well in tournies. Fox does not consistently get combos off that do large damage. Why?

Well, I just explained it to you. Debate me? You might as well attempt to debate with the game engine itself. All I did was explain to you the mechanics behind why Fox is mediocre. Foxes approaches and attempts to combo put him in alot of danger and he takes huge risks anytime he tries to attack really. That's his main problem. His light weight augments this weakness as it means he can't afford to take hits. But his playstyle forces him to get in his opponent's face so he comes face to face with his glaring weakness all the time.

 

[C.O.C.K]

Fox is very unappealing. Im currently testing him for the remainder of this week and next week and if he doesnt seem worthwhile, Im probly gonna stick with ICs

 

[A6M Zero]

Emblem Lord, I'll dismiss the errors in your understand of Fox's game as a result of not being exposed to it very much. It's become apparent to me this is a waste of time, considering you do not understand correctly exactly what a Fox can and /should/ do in a match. This isn't a personal snipe, it's just a lack of good Fox videos that really show what he does right.

All of the few good Fox's out there that can make it to tournaments are doing far better then you'd expect, and I promise that his poor tournament results are due to lack of decent representation.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Now you have a chance to educate and you walk away?

Seems I overestimated this community once again.

Pitiful.

 

[_X_]

Man this thread got ugly quick.

Okay kiddies, until we have some wicked frame date on the dair combos and don't really know much. I think Fox's meta-game isn't fully constructed as of yet and his placing in the SBR Tier list reflects such.

Fox has really good killing potential and okay edge guarding game BUT some pretty poor/impossible match-ups. We'll see how far Star Fox can go.

Now you have a chance to educate and you walk away?

Seems I overestimated this community once again.

Pitiful.

Keep the insults to yourself.

Can we please play nice boys?

 

[A6M Zero]

Sorry, I'm not going to walk into that one sweetheart. It's obvious you're not interested in accepting anything related to Fox except "He's bad."

Edit: Maybe later if you ask nicely and pay attention someone will sharpen up your crude concept of Fox's game.

 

[Duo55]

I try to go to as many large tournaments as I can, and I'll be going to more from now on (I graduated this year) and I've been told my Fox is excellent, I've beaten toasty's R.O.B. in MMs with my Fox, along with many others, (GG's) and I've also teamed up with chu dat in team MM's with my Fox as well, we beat all challengers ofcourse. Sorry I don't have any vids up yet, but I'll be at ECRC C3 in virginia ( everyone come to this ) to represent Fox, and I'll agree that Fox is probably one of the least used characters in tournament play from what I've seen, too many times have I not only been the only Fox main at a tournament, but the only person that used Fox in a tournament match. I love it when I fight someone who thinks they have Fox figured out, from some laggy online matches with some sub par Fox across the country. They soon find the *Underestimate a Fox, lose the match" phrase very true. Anyways, I'll probably make some vids of my Fox sooner or later... we'll see,

 

[Emblem Lord]

You still don't get it.

I'm practically starving to death over here.

All I give a **** about...is metagame advancement. Tier list and tournament placements be ****ed!

So, yeah I goaded you, so I could amuse myself. But, my cause was good at least.

In this way at least we could educate the people reading this. Anyway, you said that I was wrong in my last analysis. So correct me. I don't believe I'm wrong of course. But that's not what a debate is about really. It's not about who is right or wrong. It's about the presentation of evidence backed up by logical explanation for the benefit of the listeners/readers.

So...debate.

 

[Shaya]

*sigh* why is the whole Fox communities only argument ever "YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND FOX".
Honestly... You guys should realise that you -naive- ones must not understand the game too well. Fox is an okay character, reflected by his mid tier status.

Whatever 'mind games' you use are things nearly every character has; but they're not exactly so amazing that it forces the opponent into something OR is totally safe anyway.

 

[KheldarVII]

Anyone willing to start up that AIM chat tonight? I'm down.

 

[Duo55]

Through my experiences with Fox, I'm going to have to say that Emblem Lords assesment of Fox is fairly accurate, minus a few tid bits here and there. Fox is one of the few Fair characters in brawl, what makes a character fair? Fairness is when: The weakness' of a character are balanced out with his strengths. Several things keep Fox from being anything more than decent, compared to the broken ( broken: when a characters strenths and weakness' are widely gapped in difference) characters. 1. the range of most his attacks leave alot to be desired, one could say that speed is the remedy to this problem, but due to the lack of hit stun, this is not the case. 2. Fox is extremely light. Sure he can KO early, but he gets KO'd just as early. Its balanced, thus that advantage is really a nulled. 3. As for the combos, while they are useful, they are sometimes unreliable, ie they cant preform the same way every time, and quite punishable if missed. 4. The last thing I'd like to mention is the fact that 80% of fox's moves are extremely fast coming out, but just as fast as they came, are gone with cool down that lasts more than long enough for a brutal punish if blocked (which isn't hard). See, the thing is, this is brawl, not melee. Speed is a plus but it isn't what determines the victor here, ever notice how moves that are spamed are multi hitting smashes(Zeldas U-smash, Robs D-smash), projectiles that are quick with decent stopping power (Wolfs laser, pits arrows, TLs arrows), and high priority, low cool down attacks( Luigis Bair, G & W in general,) Then theres MK, and Snake (no explenation needed). <--- That is what works in brawl effectively, and thats why its spammed. Does fox posses anythin in that list...? Well thats my take on it, view it as you please. I mained Fox in the original smash, I mained him in melee, I main him now, and I'm pretty sure I'll main him in SSB4 (if there is one). Hes my favorite character in the roster, hes fun to play, and he impressive to be good with. That why I enjoy playing, and it sure as hell isn't because picking him is an easy win.

 

[Duo55]

*sigh* why is the whole Fox communities only argument ever "YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND FOX".
Honestly... You guys should realise that you -naive- ones must not understand the game too well. Fox is an okay character, reflected by his mid tier status.

Whatever 'mind games' you use are things nearly every character has; but they're not exactly so amazing that it forces the opponent into something OR is totally safe anyway.

Sorry for the double post, but please dont group the entire Fox comunity together <.< I know what make my character tick, and I know he isn't the end all fights character MK is. He's Decent nothing more, but his tier placing is partly due to his lack of players, and out of the few players that do use him, only a handful use him correctly, as I metioned in an earlier post. I'm on a mission to fix that, but my journey has only begun.

 

[-Mars-]

Through my experiences with Fox, I'm going to have to say that Emblem Lords assesment of Fox is fairly accurate, minus a few tid bits here and there. Fox is one of the few Fair characters in brawl, what makes a character fair? Fairness is when: The weakness' of a character are balanced out with his strengths. Several things keep Fox from being anything more than decent, compared to the broken ( broken: when a characters strenths and weakness' are widely gapped in difference) characters. 1. the range of most his attacks leave alot to be desired, one could say that speed is the remedy to this problem, but due to the lack of hit stun, this is not the case. 2. Fox is extremely light. Sure he can KO early, but he gets KO'd just as early. Its balanced, thus that advantage is really a nulled. 3. As for the combos, while they are useful, they are sometimes unreliable, ie they cant preform the same way every time, and quite punishable if missed. 4. The last thing I'd like to mention is the fact that 80% of fox's moves are extremely fast coming out, but just as fast as they came, are gone with cool down that lasts more than long enough for a brutal punish if blocked (which isn't hard). See, the thing is, this is brawl, not melee. Speed is a plus but it isn't what determines the victor here, ever notice how moves that are spamed are multi hitting smashes(Zeldas U-smash, Robs D-smash), projectiles that are quick with decent stopping power (Wolfs laser, pits arrows, TLs arrows), and high priority, low cool down attacks( Luigis Bair, G & W in general,) Then theres MK, and Snake (no explenation needed). <--- That is what works in brawl effectively, and thats why its spammed. Does fox posses anythin in that list...? Well thats my take on it, view it as you please. I mained Fox in the original smash, I mained him in melee, I main him now, and I'm pretty sure I'll main him in SSB4 (if there is one). Hes my favorite character in the roster, hes fun to play, and he impressive to be good with. That why I enjoy playing, and it sure as hell isn't because picking him is an easy win.

What moves are you using? The only moves that have horrible cooldown is uair and fsmash.

 

[chaindude]

In this way at least we could educate the people reading this. Anyway, you said that I was wrong in my last analysis. So correct me. I don't believe I'm wrong of course. But that's not what a debate is about really. It's not about who is right or wrong. It's about the presentation of evidence backed up by logical explanation for the benefit of the listeners/readers.

So...debate.

ok im going to try and debate but i will probably be shot and dragged into a river

Doesn't change the fact that Fox isn't that good. So in this case my biased opinion happens to be correct.
.

first an opinion cannot be right as it is point a view

now about the metagame... you did say fox is played by getting into there face by starting with SH Dair i agree to extent this is how most fox players play
i play fox by SHDL then wait for them to get angry/impatient(though definetly not as effective as falco's) i do this because as common knowledge is you jump get it hit by the top one move forward be hit by the bottom one and almost as soon as i touch the ground i can move freely
doing this seems to greatly annoy my opponent and they rush most of the time the things that come are either dash attack or Fair if i see the jump i can block the Fair and do what i want to counter or if it's a dash i can SH dair or sheild grab

thats my playstyle a simple way for me to put it is camp and let them get into my face i find the break in the offense and i take advantage of it and repeat

 

[Zhamy]

tl;dr.

1) Fox isn't /that/ good. Teaching the community to play smart and evaluating his worth in a pure matchup thread is completely different.

2)

A character's tier does NOT always represent how good that character is when played at it's top level,

No, that's the point of a tier list - to show what each character is capable of, and if both are playing at their best, how one-sided it is.

3) EL: Fox has relatively reliable combos with other moves besides Utilt as the opponent's damage increases. It doesn't scale perfectly, but Utilt is not the only option. Landing the Dair is the hard part, yes.

4)

Seems I overestimated this community once again.

A6MZero =/= the entire community, thank you very much.

 

[soul ark]

i believe fox has some tactics that have fairly good applications like his blaster his shine and his air moves

all of which to my knowledge doesn't throw him into harms way.

also some of his throws air semi followable

 

[RPK]

What moves are you using? The only moves that have horrible cooldown is uair and fsmash.

Even then, Uair can be auto cancel'd

 

[Fenrir VII]

The thing is, Fox is a character who is able to bait out attacks quite well and capitalize on them.

EL mentioned that Fox's dair approach is risky... yes it is. That's why I consider a dair heavy Fox, in most cases, to be mediocre. We mention it... and use it for that matter, as a VERY good combo lead in after a successful bait. That's a bit beside the point

What we mainly run into here is that Fox lacks a general "here's what you do" strategy that is universal. I'm certainly not saying he does not have that kind of option... I'm just saying that his overall approach to a match is almost completely based on the opponent character.

This is also what separates him from a large part of the higher tier characters... and, in my personal opinion, why he is so hard to play in tournaments... and why he is not higher on the tier list. Basically, with a few changes, MK, Snake, and most of the other top characters play basically the same with just a few changes against every character in the game... I realize this is an overgeneralization, but bear with me..

Fox, on the other hand, has to greatly vary his overall strategy in every match.
For example... Against MK, Fox goes very Dair happy...beating out both tornado and upB... is not very worried about grabs with DI away... and always illusions back onto the stage from varying heights and lengths. He NEVER edgeguards MK... and typically looks for an usmash kill. He has to watch for MK's shield game with dsmash, though.

Against Falco, Fox has to be very careful about grabs... he keeps moving. NEVER lands in front of shield with a dair... mainly tries for a grab. Edge guards Falco with nair and dair to shine spikes.. .and usually can Firefox back onto the ledge...or illusion of course.. fairly easily. He just kills falco off the stage...and usmash only if the edgeguarding doesn't happen.

And yeah, I know that every character can say something like that...but these matches make fox play COMPLETELY differently... so to give out a "this makes Fox good" tactic is very difficult.

That's why you'll hear me talk about dash shield so much... that's basically the one tactic that I have found to be mostly universally good. It creates openings by applying pressure...and since Fox has a good out of shield game...it's really sets him up. Another good tactic is pwg, which Fox's slides very far, mostly unpunishable

Now, continuing Fox's combos on character really isn't high risk...after it's started. There are a variety of mixups that work fine. I'm certainly not talking about dair utilt x3.
After any utilt... whether after dair, or even a run behind shield utilt...or roll...whatever ...you get at least a jab or grab...if you don't want another utilt... after a couple, you get nair, which also leads to grabs and such... I find it really hard to list all of them, because they're very dynamic.. Just, really, it's not hard to put 50% on most characters...even with DI. With proper pressure after a combo and not trying to overextend yourself, another 20% isn't very difficult either.

Fox was in Melee...and still is... very good at being relentless in very tight spaces... once he starts controlling the combo game...if played correctly, it's VERY hard to break out of it.

After about 70%, which, with the comboing mixed with other random grabs and lasers isn't very hard to accomplish that kind of %, dsmash is a legitimate threat out of shield or dair... as Fox usually has a pretty good edgeguarding game (not usually involving shine spike)
And around 90%, dsmash and usmash both will kill the light half of the cast... and can both combo out of dair...so one mistake... or one guessed move, and you die...and I'm completely disregarding bair's killing potential

My main point here, is that Fox is typically a reaction character. And this sounds worse than it is. He is one of the best at punishing moves or predictable gameplay. You ask for safe approaches, I can give just a few of them... so basically, yeah, he lacks a bit... but his whole game is centered around forcing something he can beat and beating it very harshly, whether this entails a roll, spot dodge, SH fair, or shuttle loop... if Fox guesses it, you have a serious problem.

Against completely flawless and unpredictable play, Fox would have trouble... but I have never seen that...even in all the years of Melee, the game was about guessing your opponent out.

but this limitation of only punishing, imo, will keep Fox out of top tier...I'm not so sure about high tier, though.


I understand the wanting Fox to have viable pokes and approaches, but I am asking that you do not only measure him on that. In any form of reasonable play, both players will make mistakes, and I believe Fox will usually have the better end of punishing them. I believe he has a lot of options for creating these openings...and several decent approaches of his own...like SH Nair landing behind a shield... which place him higher than he is now.

Add to that his blaster, which is almost an auto-refill for his smash attacks and you have a powerful threat

 

[Yaya]

edited for wrong account

 

[A6M Zero]

Thank-You Fenrir VII, that's a whole lot better way to say what I've been failing to, lol.

<3

But everything Fenrir VII says is true, and I sincerely hope that some of the people read this and realize what Fox really is. That single **** post should be stickied and referenced in every thread ever posted here.

Long live the Foxes.



(Yknow what, fine. I'm giving that it's own topic.)_

 

[LuigiKing]

Haha, Marsulas I see you contribute to the Luigi boards, Zelda, now Fox. Who do you main for crying out loud?

 

[-Mars-]

Haha, Marsulas I see you contribute to the Luigi boards, Zelda, now Fox. Who do you main for crying out loud?

Lol, i'm actually a Sheik main.....I love her to death. But with her lack of ko power, I picked up Zelda and fell in love with her as well.

I'm really serious into Fox as of right now as a secondary, I don't want to use the p word, but he really can only go up

I just recently got into Luigi because i'm intrigued by him. How a character with that much ko power, priority, and combo ability is played as less as he is baffles me. I'm seriously thinking of using him in a few tournaments as a cp and for the surprise factor.

So...........I main Sheik, i'm just really looking into these other characters right now.

 

[cakecontrol]

Ok so I'm from TX I main Fox and at my last tourny i played all fox But if it helps you guys at all i went 2-0 with dmk if you know who that is he is a good mk ..... I also play dojo (MK) and santi (TL) every day i know them we live in a same town we are going to HOBO 11 and i hope to do well

(sorry for any spelling)

 

[-Mars-]

Ok so I'm from TX I main Fox and at my last tourny i played all fox But if it helps you guys at all i went 2-0 with dmk if you know who that is he is a good mk ..... I also play dojo (MK) and santi (TL) every day i know them we live in a same town we are going to HOBO 11 and i hope to do well

(sorry for any spelling)

Cool, any chance we could get some vids of you?

 

[cakecontrol]

Yea but it might take a while cuz all of our matches are at dojos house and he has the capture card but ill go over and put some up asap

 

[Santi]

Cake tourney videos?!!
=)
With Santi commentating!?!?!


win.

 

[cakecontrol]

Thats my boy santi hes just toon nasty

 

[A6M Zero]

Ah yeah, I've seen your stuff Santi. You've got my respect.

 

[cakecontrol]

so we are going to hobo and im going to try to show some ppl wat fox can do any words of advice ?

 

[A6M Zero]

Just stay aware of the game, don't get drawn into doing things that won't work. The most important thing is to not let Fox's ease of play draw you away from what actually works.

 

[_X_]

Just stay aware of the game, don't get drawn into doing things that won't work. The most important thing is to not let Fox's ease of play draw you away from what actually works.

Exactly. That's how you get punished and lose stocks.

 

[§witch]

And you should always be KOing at usmash %. Which is another place where fox shines.

 

[cakecontrol]

srry guys i tryed but m2k was in my pool and i could not get out of it cuz of him its a long story. But on the bright side i gog m2k to 1 stock witch means i did not win but its good for playing m2k.

 

[A6M Zero]

That's okay.


NOW GO POST ON MAH OTHER THREADS

 

[Fenrir VII]

eh. M2k is good.. not unbeatable, but very solid. i got him down to one stock 50% too... just not quite over the top. oh wells...

He's actually the last MK I lost to. lol. MK sucks : P

 

[cakecontrol]

What threads ?

 

[NinjaFoxX]

post.

Fox=medium risk=medium high reward=high tier?