Adaption ~ Stage Discussion [Halberd] Updated - 12/09/10

[KillerJawz]

Before I start, credit goes to NO-IDea for the layout.

I. The Purpose of This Guide
I.a. Terminology
II. Starter Stages
II.a. Battlefield
II.b. Final Destination
II.c. Smashville
II.d. Yoshi's Island
III. Starter/Counter-Pick Stages
III.a. Castle Siege
III.b. Halberd
III.c. Lylat Cruise
III.d. Pokémon Stadium 1
IV. Counter-Pick Stages
IV.a. Brinstar
IV.b. Delfino Plaza
IV.c. Frigate Orpheon
IV.d. Jungle Japes
IV.e. Pictochat
IV.f. Pirate Ship
IV.g. Pokémon Stadium 2
IV.h. Rainbow Cruise
V. Counter-Pick/Banned Stages
V.a. Distant Planet
V.b. Green Greens
V.c. Luigi's Mansion
V.d. Port Town Aero Dive
V.e. Yoshi's Island (Melee)
V.f. Norfair
VI. Banned Stages
VI.a. 75m
VI.b. Big Blue
VI.c. Bridge of Eldin
VI.d. Corneria
VI.e. Flat Zone 2
VI.f. Green Hill Zone
VI.g. Hanenbow
VI.h. Hyrule Temple
VI.i. Mario Bros.
VI.j. Mario Circuit
VI.k. Mushroomy Kingdom I
VI.l. Mushroomy Kingdom II
VI.m. New Pork City
VI.n. Onett
VI.o. Rumble Falls
VI.p. Shadow Moses Island
VI.q. Skyworld
VI.r. Spear Pillar
VI.s. The Summit
VI.t. Wario Ware

I. The Purpose of This Guide

The purpose of this guide has been created to help all Fox players, both mainers and those who use him as an alternative character, to learn about every stage the game. It is also intended to help create level-specific tactics, which will hopefully help the player understand each stage better. Feel free to post what you think will benefit you as a Fox player. If you know of any tricks or glitches that will be useful, please share them. Write as much as you know about a certain stage, who you would take there, who you wouldn't and why.

I wish for the entire Fox community to be apart of this, so please do not hestitate to contribute ^^. You guys have let two stage discussion threads die, I feel you will benefit from this consistantly updated one.

I.a. Terminology

Starter (S): These stages can only be used at the beginning of the first match. Counter-Pick stages are not allowed to be used at this time.

Starter/Counter-Pick (S/C): These can be used as starters, though they are counter-pick stages as well.

Counter-Pick (C): These stages can only be used during the second and third match (fourth and fifth in best three-out-of-five), though starter stages may also be used. It cannot be used as a starter stage, however.

Counter-Pick/Banned (C/B): These stages are still permissible by tournament standards.

Banned (B): These kinds of stages are not allowed by tournament standards.

Below are the stages, and the numbers coming after the name of each stage are the votes. From left to right, it represents Starter, Counter-Pick, and Banned. The one with the most votes determines if the stage is a starter, starter/counter-pick, counter-pick, counter-pick/banned, or banned, though other votes also determine where each stage is placed by tournament standards. For more information, go here and here.

II. Starter Stages

II.a.

Battlefield

Tips and Tricks:

Video showing fox's true mobility on Battlefield and the potential for so many combos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AVIjWu_2No

In general, BF is a good stage for Fox. He has auto-cancels from the platforms, the distance is short enough so match-ups where people try to camp are easier here, you can pressure opponents who are on platforms above you (SH U-air, SH F-air, maybe U-tilt and maybe U-smash), and you have the option of illusioning to the platforms if you're pressured offstage. He's not good when he's on the platforms though, and he doesn't transition from platform to ground as well as other characters such as Marth.

Who should Fox take to this stage:

Pikachu: this is the best place with Lylat Cruise to fight this rat as the platforms give us ways to prevent grabs and Pika's Thunder is mostly useless here.
Diddy: from the neutral stages is the best to fight Diddy because with the platforms his banana game is not as terrifying as it is in FD and Smashville.
Ice Climbers: very similar to Pikachu.
Wario: platforms = less air mobility which is good for Fox, bad for Wario.

Who shouldn't Fox take to this stage:

Fox really can have trouble on BF against characters with a good air zoning game.. Marth and GW will give trouble, as well as MK in some cases. This is one of his better anti-Snake stages, however. Early kills and Snake's weakness in the air really give you advantages when moving around on the platforms.

Marth: (s)he loves platforms and BF make all the tips easier to connect.
G&W: By experience I have learned that G&W control extremely well the platforms, he loves to have the opponent above so if you step on a platform and he is below expect a couple of nairs and G&W knows how to force you to get in a platform.
MK: Some Foxes like to take MK here. Is not a bad option but I still believe that the camping opportunities of FD are better than the advantages BF gives against him.
Olimar: very similar to G&W in platform control but Olimar does it with Uair and Usmash and we can´t forget that his throws can send you directly to the platforms.

II.b.

Final Destination

Tips and Tricks

I've found that when you cant go fd (banned against you or you've already used it in a best of 5 set)
pictochat is also really good, being that its a very similar stage, but its a bit longer so you can camp even harder.
also the transformations usally work in your favour.

as for fd it really is the ****, staying in the center on the stage at higher percents helps with your recovery and can make you really annoying to kill.
its also great for juggling if your able to consistenly do the autocancelled uair, since as they come down they dont really have any good options to avoid getting into that trap (ac uair, and then punish the airdodge)

FD is your main stage for camping with Fox. Like camping is very important in most matchups this stage is really good for Fox. He loses the tricks he has on platforms but it compensates with more stage control. Camping here makes doing damage to the opponent more safe than any other stage but with lack of platforms also comes a lack of tricks so it can be more difficult to get the kill. Now for specific matchups.

Who should Fox take to this stage?

MK: definitely Fox's best stage against MK but probably will be also the one that most MKs ban against campers so if you are lucky and you get to fight here take advantage of it. This stage makes the MU completely 50-50. Obviously camping is the main focus of this match and forcing MK to make the mistake when is approaching. Here Tornado is very risky for MK as without platforms to bother is just to SDI that Nado and punish it with Dair -> followups. The only bad aspect for Fox in this stage is recovering so play smart here and mix your options.

DK, Bowser, Ganondorf, Ike, Marth (any char that does't have a projectile/good projectile): campfest, that's basically it.

DDD: good stage against him because he can´t CG you but you can camp him, normally double laser is not enough so is recommended to use here SHTL the most you can because his Waddle stuff can block most of the lasers but with three lasers is assured that at least one of them hit. This MU here is just patience and playing safe.

Snake: I like this stage against him because you can control his nade camping with your lasers. Is true that snake doesn't depend of that to be a threat but still is nice to have this advantage.

Who shouldn't Fox take to this stage?

CG and Ctilts dudes (you know what I mean): no platforms means no tricks to escape from grabs or locks so never use this stage against these guys. All the camp of the world is not worth it if at the end you have to go for the kill risking you to get horribly punished.

Better Campers: When I say this I am talking about Falco and Pit normally. Both are better campers than Fox so is very hard to win a campfest against these guys and forcing you to approach is really bad for Fox what's why we are never supposed to do it

Ness & Lucas: basically their DownB destroys your camping options as they always expect the lasers and if they are on one side and you are on the other they can use their DownB safely.

II.c.

Smashville

Tips and Tricks

Moving platform - allows for amazing mobility.platform canling allows fox to move around smashville creating many mix ups and cross ups. because of fox's speed it is very difficult for an opponent to keep up and it is very easy for them to be overwhelmed.by platform canceling foxcan navigate through smashville with very little consequences while keeping his opponent guessing.because there is little to no lag, fox can produce some very unpredictable strings, especially since he has many moves at his disposal to send his opponent into the air.overall fox can control alot space with even more speed than on other neutral stages. platform can also give more recovery options.

Main stage - overall good choice for fox.allows room for fox to play more paitent(although smashville is slightly smaller than final destination) and means that he never has to commit to a platform fight unlike battle field where you are very likely to use platforms. its ledges are much better than FD for us as there is less room for mistakes. we can actually travel under the whole stage with the use of Fair and firefox, although isnt somthing you will do often it is still a useful option if your being edge guarded by metaknight.

Who should Fox take to this stage:

I think that smashville is the best stage against characters like Pika that have that grab on Fox. Mainly because of the moving platform he'll only get a couple of grabs off before having it pull the two of you apart. It is a standing chaingrab and not moving so...There ya go >_>

I love SV vs some characters. The moving platform gives me alot of breating space when needed. Imo I wouldnt recommend this stage versus snake some things he can do with the platform can mess your camp game and take away nessecary room to do things. Other than that I think Sv is a good stage verse pressure based characters

Who shouldn't Fox take to this stage?

N/A

II.d.

Yoshi's Island

Tips and Tricks

YI annoys me. Landing lag with SH illusions cuz hills make them grounded (if you space right this wont happen though. The platform helps me with follow ups but can also hurt you alot depending the chars. Also the platform is good for running away from certain shenanigans. Major thing that annoys me is the slant on end =_=. Don't try lasering on it lol.

The middle platform is good for auto canceling aerials. High vertical celling hinders our upsmash kill for about 7% i think...
hills hinders our illusion and the flying shy guys protect the opponent from our lazors and make them stale
the low horizontal celling and fox light weight

Okay, you know why YI sucks for Fox? The platform in the middle ****ing ***** him. It's the wrong height; it tilts weirdly, and you can't abuse autocancel SH shenanigans consistently like you can on Battlefield, so you have to rely on luck.

It's really freaking difficult for Fox to abuse the platforms (partially due to his full hop/short hop height), and a lot of other characters can abuse it a lot better than he can.

Who should Fox take to this stage:

its a good stage against chaingrabbers and lockers since the platform gives us many opportunitys for running away/getting momentum back/autocancelled aerials.

Who shouldn't Fox take to this stage?

N/A

III.a.

Castle Siege

Tips and Tricks

First of all, you have those two giant statues that need to be destroyed before you can force any approaches through your laser game. HOWEVER, these statues can be lasered like hell in order to replenish your moveset, which is a nice consideration. If they are destroyed, you can officially camp your opponent and force approaches on a pretty big stage and have a lot of space to work with. Fox's speed can shine here in both his camping game and his approach game, as opposed to the previous part of the stage.

Who should Fox take to this stage:

[N/A]

Who shouldn't Fox take to this stage?

The first part of the stage is small, not flat, and has two very low platforms. While the platforms aren't so bad, this stage, in general, accomplishes two things: 1) it nerfs Fox's camping game (no real laser game and nowhere to escape to) and 2) it helps characters with a strong zoning game shine, i.e. Marth.

 

[Conviction]

Video showing fox's true mobility on Battlefield and the potential for so many combos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AVIjWu_2No

 

[Blacknight99923]

BF is probably the stage I would be willing to pick for just about any match up as fox

 

[KillerJawz]

BF is probably the stage I would be willing to pick for just about any match up as fox

Tbh I don't think taking a Samus to BF is a very good bet.

 

[Conviction]

Tbh I don't think taking a Samus to BF is a very good bet.

I would, giving less room to camp. Improves our mobility.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I am not suggesting counterpicking this stage in every match up but for starters I would be willing to play on this stage in any match up


realistically I would be counterpicking halberd against samus

 

[KillerJawz]

I would, giving less room to camp. Improves our mobility.

Samus doesn't ever camp a Fox. She simply abuses the ledge, and how Fox lacks the tools to take us off of it. Then on the platforms, it makes it easier for Samus to juggle/uair Fox.

Samus also gains better mobility on BF due to ALL OF HER AERIALS AUTOCANCELLING. I am not saying Samus does better on BF then Fox, I am simply saying that I've found it's not your BEST option. Like Black pointed out, Halberd is far better.

 

[Conviction]

Samus doesn't ever camp a Fox. She simply abuses the ledge, and how Fox lacks the tools to take us off of it. Then on the platforms, it makes it easier for Samus to juggle/uair Fox.

Samus also gains better mobility on BF due to ALL OF HER AERIALS AUTOCANCELLING. I am not saying Samus does better on BF then Fox, I am simply saying that I've found it's not your BEST option. Like Black pointed out, Halberd is far better.

Hmm i see.

In general though when stage striking aim for BF being your starter stsge.

 

[KillerJawz]

Hmm i see.

In general though when stage striking aim for BF being your starter stsge.

I would prefer some character names to go up and why.

 

[AvaricePanda]

In general, BF is a good stage for Fox. He has auto-cancels from the platforms, the distance is short enough so match-ups where people try to camp are easier here, you can pressure opponents who are on platforms above you (SH U-air, SH F-air, maybe U-tilt and maybe U-smash), and you have the option of illusioning to the platforms if you're pressured offstage. He's not good when he's on the platforms though, and he doesn't transition from platform to ground as well as other characters such as Marth.

The stage isn't bad for him though; it's good, but some characters can use it better. I wouldn't want to play against a Marth, Samus, Falco, MK, DK, insert-other-characters-i'm-not-thinking-about-right-now on this stage just because they use it better.

Where you should try to strike to is really dependant on the match-up, because all the neutrals (minus yoshi's) can be pretty good for him.

 

[Uzima (Uzi)]

big shocker here, but i support battlefield as one of fox's best if not his total best stage.
made threads and a video about it as iblis already posted.

i i need to post my info bout battlefield just let me know, so it can be saved in a more defined thread.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Popping in to say hi for a bit.

BF is definitely a good stage for Fox in general. I don't feel it is his best, but it is certainly one of his better stages. In general, it is very good for matches against characters with fairly poor mobility and aerials, as Fox's mobility really allows him to constantly change platforms.

Fortressing (standing under a platform defensively) is really a problem for Fox in general, and this stage does provide opponents an opportunity for this, but it is not as bad as you might think. With proper grab mixups, and bair drops off of the lower platforms, you can get some free shield hits or damage without way too much fear of retaliation.

Fox really can have trouble on BF against characters with a good air zoning game.. Marth and GW will give trouble, as well as MK in some cases. This is one of his better anti-Snake stages, however. Early kills and Snake's weakness in the air really give you advantages when moving around on the platforms.

About the samus edge thing... Yes, Samus is strong offstage. And yes, Fox has few attacking options in that scenario, but that is a fairly universal problem, regardless of stage selection. I personally feel that BF can give some pretty good options against her, but it's mainly just a neutral in that matchup.

 

[Zephil]

It can be considered Fox's best stage but is not the best to pick against some chars because some have more advantages than fox on this stage.

I think this stage is a great place to fight most of the roster but some specific chars that you should never play here are:

Marth: (s)he loves platforms and BF make all the tips easier to connect.
G&W: By experience I have learned that G&W control extremely well the platforms, he loves to have the opponent above so if you step on a platform and he is below expect a couple of nairs and G&W knows how to force you to get in a platform.
MK: Some Foxes like to take MK here. Is not a bad option but I still believe that the camping opportunities of FD are better than the advantages BF gives against him.
Olimar: very similar to G&W in platform control but Olimar does it with Uair and Usmash and we can´t forget that his throws can send you directly to the platforms.

On the other side BF is a great CP for some MU like:
Pikachu: this is the best place with Lylat Cruise to fight this rat as the platforms give us ways to prevent grabs and Pika's Thunder is mostly useless here.
Diddy: from the neutral stages is the best to fight Diddy because with the platforms his banana game is not as terrifying as it is in FD and Smashville.
Ice Climbers: very similar to Pikachu.
Wario: platforms = less air mobility which is good for Fox, bad for Wario.

 

[KillerJawz]

big shocker here, but i support battlefield as one of fox's best if not his total best stage.
made threads and a video about it as iblis already posted.

i i need to post my info bout battlefield just let me know, so it can be saved in a more defined thread.

Please do feel free to do so. Any information you can provide will be most helpful ^^.

 

[luke_atyeo]

I wish uzi was my sensei...

I love battlefield for fox, its great against ic's for baiting them to chase you up then getting underneath them.

what else can be said about bf though, its a great stater for most matchups, can be a good counterpick and gives us lots of cool options.
also yeah, taking wario here is good, probably better then taking wario to YI, because while that is considered warios worst stage, fox doesnt like it much either.

 

[Blacknight99923]

shouldn't you be taking wario to final destination?


anyway against the majority of the cast battlefield is your best starter

 

[Zephil]

never take Wario to FD, even when you can campfest him there he has to much air mobility, just getting the kill will be more pain in the ***

 

[Conviction]

What are you talking about FD versus is everything but bad.

 

[KillerJawz]

The discussion is about Battlefield, not FD, that's try and stay on topic ^^.

We'll be moving to FD on the 12th, so get in every last piece of information you can <3.

 

[Conviction]

I think I got some matches on BF where I abuse Fox's advs. on it I'll upload them later.

 

[KillerJawz]

Ok guys, thanks for the input. All relevant information has been added to the OP, we are now discussing Final Destination, all input is welcome ^______^.

 

[Zephil]

FD is your main stage for camping with Fox. Like camping is very important in most matchups this stage is really good for Fox. He loses the tricks he has on platforms but it compensates with more stage control. Camping here makes doing damage to the opponent more safe than any other stage but with lack of platforms also comes a lack of tricks so it can be more difficult to get the kill. Now for specific matchups.

Good CP against:

MK: definitely Fox's best stage against MK but probably will be also the one that most MKs ban against campers so if you are lucky and you get to fight here take advantage of it. This stage makes the MU completely 50-50. Obviously camping is the main focus of this match and forcing MK to make the mistake when is approaching. Here Tornado is very risky for MK as without platforms to bother is just to SDI that Nado and punish it with Dair -> followups. The only bad aspect for Fox in this stage is recovering so play smart here and mix your options.

DK, Bowser, Ganondorf, Ike, Marth (any char that does't have a projectile/good projectile): campfest, that's basically it.

DDD: good stage against him because he can´t CG you but you can camp him, normally double laser is not enough so is recommended to use here SHTL the most you can because his Waddle stuff can block most of the lasers but with three lasers is assured that at least one of them hit. This MU here is just patience and playing safe.

Snake: I like this stage against him because you can control his nade camping with your lasers. Is true that snake doesn't depend of that to be a threat but still is nice to have this advantage.

Bad CP against:

CG and Ctilts dudes (you know what I mean): no platforms means no tricks to escape from grabs or locks so never use this stage against these guys. All the camp of the world is not worth it if at the end you have to go for the kill risking you to get horribly punished.

Better Campers: When I say this I am talking about Falco and Pit normally. Both are better campers than Fox so is very hard to win a campfest against these guys and forcing you to approach is really bad for Fox what's why we are never supposed to do it

Ness & Lucas: basically their DownB destroys your camping options as they always expect the lasers and if they are on one side and you are on the other they can use their DownB safely.

 

[luke_atyeo]

I've found that when you cant go fd (banned against you or you've already used it in a best of 5 set)
pictochat is also really good, being that its a very similar stage, but its a bit longer so you can camp even harder.
also the transformations usally work in your favour.

as for fd it really is the ****, staying in the center on the stage at higher percents helps with your recovery and can make you really annoying to kill.
its also great for juggling if your able to consistenly do the autocancelled uair, since as they come down they dont really have any good options to avoid getting into that trap (ac uair, and then punish the airdodge)

 

[Blacknight99923]

bring non campers here otherwise there isn't much the stage itself can really offer you, I mean against snake almost any stage favors both of you to the same degree other than like lylat. otherwise this stage isn't bad but it doesn't allow you to use your amazing mobility quite as fluidly

 

[KillerJawz]

With the current information, are you guys happy to move on, or would you like longer to think of some more information to add?

 

[Zephil]

We need more information, what I put is just my way of thinking and we need the opinion of more people

 

[Rizk18]

cannot wait for this to finish either,along with character MU. please update

 

[KillerJawz]

I can't update what can't be updated.

I will leave this discussion on a temporary open area, you can still provide information on this stage for a little while whilst we discuss Smashville.

We are moving onto Smashville thank you for your input on FD.

 

[C.R.Z]

smashvile is all round amazing

Moving platform - allows for amazing mobility.platform canling allows fox to move around smashville creating many mix ups and cross ups. because of fox's speed it is very difficult for an opponent to keep up and it is very easy for them to be overwhelmed.by platform canceling foxcan navigate through smashville with very little consequences while keeping his opponent guessing.because there is little to no lag, fox can produce some very unpredictable strings, especially since he has many moves at his disposal to send his opponent into the air.overall fox can control alot space with even more speed than on other neutral stages. platform can also give more recovery options.

Main stage - overall good choice for fox.allows room for fox to play more paitent(although smashville is slightly smaller than final destination) and means that he never has to commit to a platform fight unlike battle field where you are very likely to use platforms. its ledges are much better than FD for us as there is less room for mistakes. we can actually travel under the whole stage with the use of Fair and firefox, although isnt somthing you will do often it is still a useful option if your being edge guarded by metaknight.

i wish i could say more about the blast lines but i know nothing about it , this is definately fox's second best netural, argubly his best (platform canceling is too good)

 

[RPK]

I think that smashville is the best stage against characters like Pika that have that grab on Fox. Mainly because of the moving platform he'll only get a couple of grabs off before having it pull the two of you apart. It is a standing chaingrab and not moving so...There ya go >_>

 

[crifer]

pick green greens and shtl the bombs

 

[Hanzhou]

I love SV vs some characters. The moving platform gives me alot of breating space when needed. Imo I wouldnt recommend this stage versus snake some things he can do with the platform can mess your camp game and take away nessecary room to do things. Other than that I think Sv is a good stage verse pressure based characters.

 

[Shintarru]

Spoiler

Just because I dont want this thread to die

This is my 2nd option most of the time in tourneys when fd is banned. This is foxes 2nd best nuetral for camping because its like fd just with the platform in the middle. The moving platform is good for aerial mobility and foxes speed. The platform can be use to help with recovery also but dont be predictable. This is a good stage for playing against a pika because he cant chaingrab you for long on the platform.

 

[KillerJawz]

It's okay, this thread isn't dying. I've just been away at a smashfest, so I didn't get to update, I'll gather all relevent information and place it into the OP, we'll begin discussion on the next stage tomorrow.

 

[KillerJawz]

Come on guys, get talking about Yoshi's Island ;___;.

 

[Hanzhou]

YI annoys me. Landing lag with SH illusions cuz hills make them grounded (if you space right this wont happen though. The platform helps me with follow ups but can also hurt you alot depending the chars. Also the platform is good for running away from certain shenanigans. Major thing that annoys me is the slant on end =_=. Don't try lasering on it lol.

This stage can be decent/bad for fox but I rarely go to YI cuz I hate it lol.

 

[Shintarru]

I rarely play on YI but when I do I dont like it because it bothers with my lasers. The middle platform is good for auto canceling aerials. I dont know a lot about this stage because I dont play on it too often.

 

[JUDGE]

in general not foxs best stage
high vertical celling hinders our upsmash kill
hills hinders our illusion and the flying shy guys protect the opponent from our lazors and make them stale
the low horizontal celling and fox light weight let us die antecedent

its a good stage against chaingrabbers and lockers since the platform gives us many opportunitys for running away/getting momentum back/autocancelled aerials
platformcancel is also possible on this stage i think
but overall BF is ALWAYS a better choice since we have the same opportunitys, and there are no annoying shyguys who hinders our camping game

BF first choice
YI second choice

sorry for my bad english^^

 

[KillerJawz]

Do you guys think we have enough information Yoshi's Island to continue or would you like to discuss it further?

 

[Zhamy]

Okay, you know why YI sucks for Fox? The platform in the middle ****ing ***** him. It's the wrong height; it tilts weirdly, and you can't abuse autocancel SH shenanigans consistently like you can on Battlefield, so you have to rely on luck.

It's really freaking difficult for Fox to abuse the platforms (partially due to his full hop/short hop height), and a lot of other characters can abuse it a lot better than he can.

The stage isn't flat, either, and that is just a ***** for laser camping sometimes. But mostly, it's that platform. That being said, the stage isn't bad, but it's one of those "Why wouldn't I pick FD or Battlefield or even Smashville?"

On the bright side, Upsmash *****es all day e'ery day.